Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Jan 2010 21:10

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

Earlier it was the Soviets, now it is the Taliban. Hats off to Pakistan generals for their ability to arm twist USA into getting the latest!

Last time instead of the A-7 Corsair anf F-5 Tiger they got the F-16; should we be surprised if they get the Reapers instead of Shadows this time around!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 23 Jan 2010 21:47

Pakistan Army Does Not Share Plans: U.S. Official

"We've got a functioning relationship with them and provide them a variety of training and assistance programs," said the American official, who is based in Pakistan.

"But they don't bring us into their operations centers and tell us... 'Here are the forces we are going to commit... here is the nature of the resistance that we expect to encounter,'" he said.

The comments underscored the uneasy nature of the alliance between Washington and Islamabad as Defense Secretary Robert Gates paid a two-day visit to Pakistan.
...
"They've got a capacity problem," said the official, saying Pakistan had committed about seven infantry divisions to the fight in the west.

"My current assessment is they don't have the ability to go into North Waziristan at the moment."

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jan 2010 07:41

Why Block-II LACM BrahMos are needed urgently

Swift induction of BrahMos Block-II is necessary because Pakistan Army is inducting its nuclear-capable Babur LACM, developed with China's help to have a 500-km strike range, in large numbers.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jan 2010 08:30

Posting in full...!
Pak tunnels near border worry government

NEW DELHI: As the war of words between India and Pakistan reaches a crescendo, New Delhi has cause for fresh alarm, due to some of the activities being carried out across the border. Intelligence agencies in India have brought to the notice of the government that Pakistan has been frantically building up tunnels in areas not far from the border with India.

According to these inputs, the tunnels have been dug up in the Sargodha district of Pakistani Punjab and can even be noticed by, as a top intelligence officer put it, a discerning eye on Google satellite imagery. "An attempt is being made to establish the purpose of digging up such tunnels which are really big in size. These clearly can't be meant for transport as is obvious from the images available; unlike ordinary tunnels they don't lead on to roads," said the official who is involved in analysing the information.

Pakistan is well within its rights to carry out any construction work on its territory and Islamabad is known to have constructed storage sheds for missiles and weapons in Sargodha, a known nuclear installation, in the past. However, the sheer size of the tunnels and the fact that these don't seem to be leading on to roads have raised suspicion that these could be used to store nuclear weapons or missiles which are battle ready.

The official said Pakistan has been known to store some of its deadliest, but unassembled, missiles like the Chinese M-11 in a sub-depot near the central ammunition depot in Sargodha. It is also the place where Pakistan's nuclear capable F-16 aircraft are said to be stationed. Located on the west of Lahore, Sargodha has always been the hub of Pakistan air force and, in fact, is home to its central air command.

If what Pakistan is doing is just a precautionary measure, considering Sargodha is a sensitive nuclear facility under threat from the Taliban and other terrorists, this has not been communicated to India either by Islamabad or the US which is fast taking it upon itself to safeguard all nuclear facilities in the country. In fact, the first attack on a nuclear installation by terrorists in Pakistan took place in Sargodha in November 2007.

According to Indian officials, Pakistan in the past has used Sargodha to store M-11 missiles which had been delivered unassembled to it by China. However, the pace at which these tunnels are coming up suggests that, as the official put it, Pakistan is up to something. Sargodha is also the place which the Chinese are said to regularly visit to train the Pakistanis in handling weapons and missiles.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 25 Jan 2010 09:07

Apologies if posted earlier ...
Pentagon chief defends arms sales to India, Pakistan

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates leaned on India and Pakistan during his trip to South Asia this week to set aside a simmering rivalry and confront militant extremists. At the same time, Gates and other U.S. officials pushed arms sales that could fuel the antagonism between the two countries.

Gates' trip was framed by that apparent contradiction in U.S. policy. On his arrival in Pakistan, a television news interviewer put the question bluntly: "Why re-arm both countries?" The Pentagon chief sidestepped the question.

But Gates and other officials explained afterward that Washington hopes the military cooperation will help the U.S. win the trust it needs to advance its goals in the region. And, besides, they said, the two countries could get weapons elsewhere, so why not from us?

Expanding the conventional military power of two sometimes bitter adversaries may not seem like the best strategy for distracting the nations from their rivalry. But U.S. officials see signs that both countries may be starting to trust Washington's counsel.

After the 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai, India took U.S. advice against ratcheting up tensions with Pakistan, despite its impatience with the response to the Pakistani-based militant group believed responsible for the strike.

Military officials said the Pentagon was being careful to not alter the balance of power in South Asia, even when providing F-16s to Pakistan.

"Another squadron of F-16s means they [Pakistan] will lose the next war with India a little slower," said a U.S. military official in Islamabad, speaking of the arms sales on condition of anonymity. "They are not going to defeat India because we gave them a squadron of F-16s. The military overmatch India enjoys is just too great."

Washington is sensitive to the risk of dramatically increasing one country's military prowess beyond the other's, which would change the calculus and potentially trigger the very war the United States wants to avert.

For example, the United States wants Pakistan to expand its surveillance capability, but it does not want to deliver long-range or heavily armed drones that Pakistani engineers could re-engineer into a platform for nuclear weapons.

Similarly, India covets high-tech fighters, but the United States does not want to offer it stealth jets that could penetrate Pakistani airspace without challenge.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2010 09:13

Similarly, India covets high-tech fighters, but the United States does not want to offer it stealth jets that could penetrate Pakistani airspace without challenge.

And we lust for Amriki MRCA?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Jan 2010 10:14

Turkey to provide Cobra spare parts free of cost

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Jan 2010 14:37

nirav wrote:All our Land mines are USELESS now !

A leetle more, and they could prolly jump/fly/levitate across the Border fence too !!

The soldiers in this pic are claimed to be testing a Levitating device ... Also NDC is said to be working on technology to Levitate Tanks and bigger objects, along with some Chinese Institute ... !

Levitation ... hmm ...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2010 15:32

New Paki admirals of the rear,and the sub kickback scandal saga.

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?opt ... 7&Itemid=2

Three PN Commodore promoted to Rear Admiral
ISLAMABAD, Jan 23 (APP): Commodore Shahid Saeed SI(M), Commodore Adnan Nazir SI(M) and Commodore Shah Sohail Masood SI(M) have been promoted to the rank of Rear Admiral with immediate effect. Rear Admiral Shahid Saeed SI (M) joined Pakistan Navy in 1975 and was commissioned in the Engineering Branch on 01 June 1978. On successful completion of his training the officer served onboard various ships and submarines.

He did Marine Engineering Application Course from Royal Naval Engineering College, Plymouth - UK with distinction. He also holds Masters Degree in Marine Engineering and is graduate of National Defence University Islamabad.
His staff and field appointments include Director Submarine Project, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Maintenance), General Manager Submarine Maintenance and General Manager Submarine Construction. He is presently serving as Director General Submarine Project at NHQ, Islamabad.
Rear Admiral Adnan Nazir SI(M) was commissioned in June 1981 and joined Aviation Branch in Pakistan Navy. The officer has qualified PN Staff Course and is M Sc in Strategic Studies. In addition he has qualified P3C Aircrew Training from USA and French Inter Services Staff Course from Paris.
He is graduate of National Defence University. His important appointments include Commanding Officer of PN 27 & 28 Squadron and Commander West. The Admiral has served as Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Admin). He also served as Army and Naval attach’ in France. Presently he is performing the duties of Commander Naval Aviation.
Rear Admiral Shah Sohail Masood SI (M) was born in August 1960 at Larkana. After receiving early education from Cadet College Larkana he joined Pakistan Navy in 1979 and was commissioned in June 1981. He joined Submarine service in 1986.
During his career, he served onboard Destroyers and Submarines in various capacities. He also served Royal Saudi Naval Forces while on deputation from 1990 - 1993. The Admiral has qualified PN Staff Course in 1996 and has done Armed Forces War Course from National Defence University Islamabad. He is M Sc in Strategic Studies.
His important appointments include Fleet Submarine Officer, Commanding Officer of PN Submarine HANGOR and Directing Staff at PN War College. At Naval Headquarters, he had been Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Training), ACNS (Ops & Plans) Project-2 and Deputy Naval Secy. Presently he is performing the duties of Commander North.

[ Back ]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=220466
The sub kickback scandal had allegations also that the French technicians connected with the project where not killed by extremists but by the ISI.

Irregularities in submarine deal
Sunday, January 24, 2010
By By Jamal Khurshid

Karachi
The National Accountability Bureau (NAB) has refuted the US$2.81 million claim of the AGOSTA-90 submarine negotiator who, via a plea bargain in 2002, facilitated the recovery of kickbacks worth US$7.5 million from former naval chief Mansurul Haq.

The NAB statement has been filed in the Sindh High Court’s (SHC) petition of Ahmed Jamil Ansari, a consultant for the French government defence supplier, SOFMA, who negotiated in 1994 with the Pakistan Navy for purchase of three AGOSTA-90 submarines, as well as SM-39 missiles and mine hunkerships.

The petitioner, who claimed to have received a 25 per cent commission in the submarines and naval equipment purchase deal, sought the recovery of US$2.81 million from NAB — money that was obtained by him during former prime minster Nawaz Sharif and president Pervez Musharaf’s regime.

He submitted that US$2.468 million were obtained from him in 1998 under duress by then-Ehtesab Bureau chief, Saifur Rehman, while the NAB also obtained US$800,000 from him while dealing with an asset matter in the Isle of Jersey, UK. He submitted that NAB authorities assured him that his amount will be returned to him but the promise was not honoured despite several assurances.

Ansari, who also facilitated NAB for the recovery of kickbacks and commissions from former naval chief Mansur Haq, denied that any kickback was received in the submarine and naval equipment deal and contended that he had earned a commission from the French company from his fair negotiating deal. The former naval chief had returned US$7.5 million to the government by entering a plea bargain with NAB in connection with submarine corruption reference before the Accountability Court. The petitioner, however, claimed the recovery of his commission as per the Supreme Court judgment in the Amir Lodhi case.

Refuting his claim, NAB submitted that the now-defunct Ehtesab Bureau came to know that Mansur Haq had obtained kickbacks in various defence deals from foreign suppliers and the petitioner gave an affidavit to the Bureau in 1998, saying that his offshore accounts were used to transmit commission to the accounts of Mansurul Haq and his aide, Amir Lodhi, who also worked as a partner of the petitioner in the deal.

NAB submitted that the petitioner admitted in an affidavit that kickbacks were received in the purchase of submarines from SOFMA and SM-39 missiles from another French company, Aerospatiale, while another bribe was received from M/s Thompson CSF in the purchase of defence equipment. It was submitted that the petitioner incorporated a company, Titan Europe; kickbacks were received from his account and later transferred to M/s Foraker and M/s Molygrove, which were owned and operated by the former naval chief.

The division of kickbacks between the former naval chief, Mansur ul Haq, Amir Lodhi and the petitioner were 50 per cent, 25 per cent and 25 per cent respectively; subsequently, US$3.369 million were transferred to Mansur ul Haq; US$1.739 million to Amir Lodhi; and US$2 million to Ansari, NAB said. The balance amount recoverable from the suppliers was US$1.7 million from SOFMA, US$4 million from Aerospatiale, and US$0.2 million from M/s Thompson CSF.

NAB said that the petitioner returned US$2.460 million to the government and he was not indicted by the AC as he had voluntarily return the proceeds of the corruption and had disclosed the facts and circumstances to which he was privy, along with relevant records.

The petitioner, NAB said, also claimed a reward on account of his support for facilitating the plea bargain from the former naval chief. NAB submitted that the petitioner claimed in his affidavit that the payment of US$2.4 mullion was in fact in excess of his actual liability as he had only received kickbacks US$2 million in the shady defence deal.

It was submitted that the excess amount of US$460,000 was paid to him, keeping in view his reward for facilitating the plea bargain. NAB also mentioned that Broad Sheet, an asset tracing company, brought to its notice that the petitioner held funds in the Isle of Jersey; subsequently, a request was issued to the Attorney General for freezing his account.

NAB said that the petitioner also gave another affidavit and offered to return amounts taken as commission between 1998 and 2006; subsequently, US$800,000 were transferred to NAB and the Isle of Jersey police were asked to remove the caution from the account of the petitioner, confirming that he was not facing any inquiry under the NAB Ordinance. The Bureau requested the court to dismiss the petition because no claim had been made out. The matter has been fixed for hearing before the SHC.

It is pertinent to mention that on May 8, 2002, eleven French engineers and technicians and three Pakistanis were killed in an apparent suicide car bombing on a bus carrying French technicians, who were assisting the Pakistan Navy in the preparation of an AGOSTA submarine in Karachi. Following the acquittal of Jihadi activists from car bombing charges, questions have been floated in France attributing the killing of the Frenchmen to the nonpayment or partial payment of kickbacks.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Jan 2010 16:49

Khalsa wrote:Pakistan Air Force IL 78 Tankers almost ready for delivery.

http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordp ... il-78a.jpg
http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordp ... il-78b.jpg
http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordp ... il-78c.jpg
http://pakistankakhudahafiz.files.wordp ... il-78d.jpg

I believe they are getting 4 of these.

Being a military kid and having seen these beasts only in the IAF colours it does frustrate me to see the PAF symbol there. Although the example above is of a non-offensive system, this should serves as a good reminder why one must never arm themselves with a stick of the same size as stick size of the the person you are about to clobber.

i.e no point going for F-16 IN VIPER for the MRCA.

Get a different aircraft, something they have no experience with at all.

One thing to note here that PAF F-16s are not equipped with refuelling probes compatible with the probe and Drogue system. So their F-16s will still have to rely on internal fuel and drop tanks. As of now only the ROSE upgraded Mirages can benefit from the IL-78. Even the first version of the Bhandaar doesn't seem to have the IFR probe. it will eventually get it though.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jan 2010 17:13

Posting in full..!
'Pak reluctant to plunge into war with Afghan militants'

Washington, Jan 25 (PTI) Suspicious of deepening ties between India and the United States, Pakistan is reluctant to plunge into war with Afghan militants and even high-profile visits of US officials have failed to win over a military and civilian establishment in Islamabad, a media report said.

The recent visit of US Defence Secretary Robert Gates and US Special Representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke could not convince Pakistan to go ahead full throat in its war against terrorism.

"One major obstacle, analysts said, is the close relationship between the United States and India," The Washington Post today reported in its dispatch from Islamabad.

"India-Pakistan relations are mired in mistrust, with India suspecting Pakistan of colluding in a terrorist attack in Mumbai in late 2008, and Pakistan suspecting that India uses Afghanistan to launch anti-Pakistan subversion," it said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Jan 2010 08:53

Pentagon to Provide Shadow UAVs to Pakistan

The United States has been working with the Pakistani military for more than a year to enhance its own ISR capabilities, Gates said. "We share a lot of information that we acquire on the Afghan side of the border and from our satellites, but we also are trying to help the Pakistanis build their own capabilities."

In addition to the drones themselves, the United States also will provide training and other capabilities required to "coordinate these platforms and be able to get the maximum possible value out of them," Gates said.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 26 Jan 2010 20:25

x-post

Stan_Savljevic wrote:The Army Today ---- Ahmad Faruqui
http://www.claws.in/index.php?action=ma ... 0&u_id=109

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jan 2010 21:50

pgbhat wrote:x-post
Stan_Savljevic wrote:The Army Today ---- Ahmad Faruqui
http://www.claws.in/index.php?action=ma ... 0&u_id=109

Text from the above article:

When asked to compare the Pakistani and Indian armies, he said the two were very similar with Pakistan having ‘an edge in quality of armour. This might appear strange, but is caused by India’s obsession with the ‘indigenous’ (foreign-engined) tank, the Arjun, which is a disaster’.

Just goes to show how clued the good Colonel is with respect to the IA. And as for the "edge in the armor" section, an army with bulk of armor consisting of Type-59(modified as Al-Zarrar)/Type-69(improvement on Type-59)/Type-85IIAP, I don't know where the edge comes from(even though the PA has done quite a bit of modifications/upgradations to its tank fleet). Yes, there are T-80UD and Al-Khalid but then there is T-90S.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Jan 2010 00:11

Al-zarra in Waziristan
Note that the so-called composite armor in Al-zarra is khali. A picture is worth thousand words eh!

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 Jan 2010 00:21

It looks like the tank has met its 72 houris

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 27 Jan 2010 00:53

Note that the so-called composite armor in Al-zarra is khali. A picture is worth thousand words eh!

You are wrong, pakistanis knew that the whole world will be watching their losses in this WoT ,specially khans ,

so they burnt a model of zarrar, and put it there,
you can see their troops running away on thier vehicle so that they are not photographed with it,
poor chaps didnt knew the speed of light.

It cant be the superior designed tank of their taller.... frnds,
After all it is a marvel of chinese design so needs to be hidden from cunning eyes

I wonder what will happen if ths super thing accidently collides with Arjun tank in the desert.... I guess it will be like an auto rickshaw(Tuk Tuk) colliding with a railway engine ,. Arjun wont use its controversial main gun in the battle

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Jan 2010 00:58

rohitvats wrote: Just goes to show how clued the good Colonel is with respect to the IA. And as for the "edge in the armor" section, an army with bulk of armor consisting of Type-59(modified as Al-Zarrar)/Type-69(improvement on Type-59)/Type-85IIAP, I don't know where the edge comes from(even though the PA has done quite a bit of modifications/upgradations to its tank fleet). Yes, there are T-80UD and Al-Khalid but then there is T-90S.

On paper the Al-Khalid seems to be equal to if not better than the T-90S. Its main advantage is the 200 extra horsepower it enjoys over the T-90 being the same weight, unless India decides to re-engine its tanks with the V-96 1250hp engine which I don't see happening.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Jan 2010 12:14

Samay wrote: You are wrong, pakistanis knew that the whole world will be watching their losses in this WoT ,specially khans ,
so they burnt a model of zarrar, and put it there,

Also note that only Al-zarra(s) were used in waziristan, not the AL-khali dabba.
So you burn up an Al-zarra, claim it in WOT expenses and buy a Al-khali dabba.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 27 Jan 2010 17:38

Drone shot in Pakistan

Local tribesmen were congratulating each other for shooting down the drone, according to residents. “I saw the aircraft was coming down … tribesmen are celebrating and congratulating each other for shooting it down,” “Saudur Rehman was quoted by AP.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Jan 2010 01:15

x-post from TIRP thread.
Meeting India's military challenge ---- Munir Akram

During US Defence Secretary Gates' recent visit, we have again heard the refrain of our Western friends that terrorism and the Taliban, not India, pose an 'existential' threat to Pakistan.

But India's own actions and pronouncements belie these Western assertions. For the past year, India has refused to resume "composite dialogue" and has regularly threatened military action against Pakistan in the event of another Mumbai-like incident. And, while protesting loudly about pro-Kashmiri militant groups like the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, India has been busy fomenting dissension and insurgency in Balochistan, FATA and other parts of Pakistan.

Any lingering doubt about India's hostile intentions and policies towards Pakistan should have been set to rest by the new military doctrine outlined recently by the Indian army chief. General Kapoor identified five thrust areas for the Indian military build-up: the ability to fight a two-front war against Pakistan and China; optimise capacity to counter asymmetric and sub-conventional threats; enhance capabilities for strategic reach and "out-of-area operations from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca Straits; acquire strategic (intercontinental) and space-based capabilities and ballistic missile defenses, and ensure a technical edge over adversaries (that is, Pakistan and China).

The new doctrine reflects India's great power aspirations. But, the greatest danger for Pakistan emanates from the concept of the so-called 'Cold Start' strategy, propounded by General Kapoor, to mobilise and strike fast (within 96 hours) at Pakistan "under a WMD overhang". At its meeting on January 13, 2010, Pakistan's National Command Authority "took serious note of recent Indian statements about its capability to conduct conventional military strikes under a nuclear umbrella" describing this as "oblivious to the dangerous implications of adventurism in a nuclearised context."This is, of course, not the first time India has contemplated a limited war or a conventional attack against Pakistan after South Asia was nuclearised. Indian leaders and military officers have often threatened 'hot pursuit' and 'lightning strikes' against training camps across the LoC in Kashmir. But they could not ignore Pakistan's stance that no war between India and Pakistan could be conceived as a limited war. In 1987, and again in 2002, India contemplated a full-scale attack against Pakistan. On both occasions, India discovered that it did not have the capacity to overcome Pakistan's conventional defences.

Pakistan cannot, of course, afford to match India's military build up. Its response will have to be defensive, asymmetrical, innovative, and achieved at much lower cost. Pakistan's forces may need to do some tactical rethinking. For example, an Indian tank force can be more effectively destroyed by drones and missiles rather than a matching tank force. A large surface navy can be seriously damaged by submarines and mobile missile-boats. The eight Indian "battle groups" may be more mobile; but they would also be vulnerable to encirclement and destruction. Rather than spread themselves thin to defend the entire Eastern border, Pakistani forces could adopt an offensive-defensive strategy, focusing a thrust into Kashmir to bottle up half a million Indian troops there.

Following the post-Mumbai situation and the emergence of India's Cold Start strategy, Pakistan's armed forces have undertaken extensive war games to counter this threat. If the Indians have watched these closely, they should be clear in their minds that the danger of conventional adventurism escalating to the nuclear level cannot be ruled out. This was the general conclusion in 2002 -- confirmed among others by Pentagon war games. The Indo-Pakistan "composite dialogue" was restarted in 2003 on the basis of the mutual recognition that a military conflict between the two nuclear-armed countries was too dangerous to contemplate.

These objectives deserve the highest priority in Pakistan's response to India's new military doctrine. Pakistan's response should also be accompanied by robust diplomatic action. This should include:

[list]* A dialogue with China to coordinate an effective response to India's new doctrine and capabilities at the diplomatic, strategic and tactical level.

* Press India's weapons' suppliers to refrain from providing it with the capabilities to execute its "adventurist" strategy; and

* Activating efforts to promote a South Asia restraint regime that provides for nuclear restraint, conventional balance and resolution of conflicts, especially Kashmir.[/list]
[/b]
A clear and visible response by Pakistan is essential to convince India, and the international community, that Pakistan is determined to defend its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity and that "cold start" could end in a hot finish.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jan 2010 10:29

From the readings on the web, it is certain that PA has put in place measures to counter the Cold Start Doctrine(CSD). IMO, there are two fundamental parameters of CSD: (A)To initiate action within a short time frame based on forces close to the IB and using the IBG(or the existing formations) (B) To initiate multiple thrusts (using the planned 8 IBG) with the idea to keep PA off balance, draw in their ARN/ARS and thence, introduce the Strike Corps to achieve the maximum thrust.

What the PA is doing is creating Corps Reserves in the formations(PA equivalent of Pivot Corps) where the thrust are likely to come first-Southern Punjab-Rajasthan Sector. V Corps already has an 3 Independent Armored Brigades and from my reading, it seems they have been formed into an Armored/Mechanized Division. Similar is the case with XXXI Corps out of Bahawalpur.

While the million $$$ question is how good/bad these formations are in terms of their offensive/defensive power what the PA is doing is to ensure it has enough assets to absorb and contain the first line of thrust by CSD formations without having to call in the ARN/ARS.

PA has been furiously upgrading the Armored and Mechanized components. While the bulk of T-80UD(320) and Al-Khalid(should be in range of 200-300) will be with the I and II Corps, some of these tanks will be with units of the Corps Reserve along with upgraded Type-59 (AL-Zarrar)/Type-69/Type-85II-AP. On the mechanization front, it produces the M113 APC locally as Al-Tahla (with various versions) and has also imported 2nd hand stuff. This has allowed it to mechanize the Infantry Divisions which are running partners of the Armored Division in ARN/ARS plus create the Corps Reserves.

While one can argue that M113 APC is more of a battle-taxi, one must remember that it allows the ARN/ARS to be fully mechanized and achieve that much better mobility. This is something even our Strike Corps do not have.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 29 Jan 2010 10:33

^^^ OMG where the hell is Abhay??

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 31 Jan 2010 15:19

Rohit,

Sorry about PA TOE - I don't know if you remember an old BRF member SS, but he and I had split up duties, with him taking up the Pak part. Unfortunately, I lost touch with him when I moved, so no access to Pak Army Orbat.

I am in strong agreement with your analyses, for what it is worth. They have always been quite judicious about deploying their armour, and lack of strategic depth also means shot LCs which is a strength in itself. IF they have an edge, it is in flexibility of deployment, which we are now denying them by making them stretch their forces thin.

Another dynimic that can no longer be overlooked as a short term aberration is the increasing need for Pakis to draw their forces westward. Maybe a couple of years ago, I read an article posted by Johann about some formation from ARN (I forget exact number) being deployed with their 11 corps. But that was before the Mumbai atrocity, which caused them to pull all forces back to the eastern border. I thought that depleting even temporarily ARN was a stunning development, and when they reverted to normal I thought the westward diversion was too good to last.

Now, of course, the drain from their India facing forces is even more mind boggling, with the total deployments for latest operations in South Waziristan easily in excess of 100k. And it no longer looks like they are in any position to withdraw the forces easily - doing so would only cause them more harm, not to mention that doing so would effetively cede a bulk of FATA to the Taliban. So they are in acute discomfort, especially at a time when they feel that India is putting the essentials of Cold Start in place... the westward diversion is so critical that it would in any case make any discussion about an edge in armour a purely academic exercise for now.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Jan 2010 23:32

Y I Patel wrote:Rohit,

Sorry about PA TOE - I don't know if you remember an old BRF member SS, but he and I had split up duties, with him taking up the Pak part. Unfortunately, I lost touch with him when I moved, so no access to Pak Army Orbat.......................<SNIP>

Thank you for your reply.

Paging Mods: It is possible to access the previous posts od Sunil Saini?I'm trying to work on the Orbat of PA and any help from prior analyses/data points will be of great help.

Thanx.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 01 Feb 2010 04:09

rohitvats wrote:While the million $$$ question is how good/bad these formations are in terms of their offensive/defensive power what the PA is doing is to ensure it has enough assets to absorb and contain the first line of thrust by CSD formations without having to call in the ARN/ARS.

Watch out for developments in the traditional enemies of fast land maneuver -- artillery, engineers and tac air defense.
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... of-sh.html

The Pakistan Army will standardize its artillery capability to 155 mm. Pakistan army will procure a range of light, medium and heavy towed and self-propelled howitzer artillery from China and Turkey to replace all non-155 mm and older systems.

Pakistan will receive the first batch of SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzer this year. Although the exact number of Pakistan SH-1 155mm self-propelled howitzer under contract is not known but it is likely to be around 96. Army has already purchased two SLC-2 active phased-array weapons locating radars along with A-100 multi-rocket launch systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2010 08:38

this news of PA artillery modernization is the best of the year so far.

nothing moves in Dilli until pakistan acquires something better than IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Feb 2010 09:30

Singha wrote:this news of PA artillery modernization is the best of the year so far.

nothing moves in Dilli until pakistan acquires something better than IA.

Pa as usual has shown alacrity in the purchase and induction of weapon system(s). As per wiki, Pa has around 256 M109 SP Arty units.Even if we give 3 regiments/Bde, I can equip 4 Arty Bdes in my crack mechanized/armor units with some more to spare.This is the biggest gap.

But we also need to understand that PA has real hotch-potch of arty systems with 6-7 types of guns in various caliber.Plus the quantity/number of units required to completely standardize to 155mm is pretty huge at around ~1500units.Where the money will come from is a big question mark.IMO, as usual, PA will go for the most cost effetive system+low cost+line of credit, get as many numbers of new types(155mm) as possible, not retire the old systems,beef up the spread of arty(more Indp.Arty bdes/new Arty Division) and inflate the number of units.The talk of complete revamp is similar to purchase of Mirage-2K-5 and recent news of Rafale.....

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Feb 2010 09:39

Singha wrote:this news of PA artillery modernization is the best of the year so far.

nothing moves in Dilli until pakistan acquires something better than IA.

AoA....finally, the wheels might start turning in Nai Dilli

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Feb 2010 02:27

USA Proposes $1.2 billion to Train and Equip Pakistani Security Forces

US President Barack Obama on Monday proposed $1.2 billion in funding next year to help train and equip Pakistani security forces to fight Taliban militants.Created by the US Congress last year, the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Capability Fund set aside some $700 million in 2009 to train and equip the Pakistan Army and other security forces.The war spending proposed by Obama is only slightly less than in each of the last two years of the administration of President George Bush and carries considerable political perilfor the Democratic president, who took office in 2009.

Obama announced in December he was adding 30,000 more US troops to the Afghan war effort to join the 68,000 already fighting the Taliban. To pay for this surge, Obama on Monday asked for an additional $33 billion in the fiscal 2010, on top of about $130 billion that the Congress has already approved for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars through Sept 30, 2010.

From the COMMENTS section:

I don’t really understand what training kind of training will be given to Pakistani forces. Apparently, they (Pakistanis) are doing much better than their counterparts (ISAF) across the Durand Line. Their lightening offensives in the heart of militancy prone areas in FATA have impressed many observers. It makes more sense if Pakistani forces could train the foreign troops fighting in Afghanistan. What Pakistanis need the most is better equipment to effectively enhance their fighting capabilities.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2010 04:57

France is said to be very close to signing a "mega-deal" with Pakistan for avionics and missiles for the JF-17. If this contract gets signed before the MRCA candidates are short-listed, I wonder if it might prejudice the IAF against the Rafale, even though Dassault itself has nothing to do with this sale to Pakis. Thales and MBDA are the main beneficiaries. And on the other hand we have Snecma tying up with GTRE as confirmed by the RM today.
the main issues that remains in this sale are relating to the bhikmangas putting together the required money from whatever baksheesh they get from the US and China. And important to note that even though their "flendship lemains as tall as mountains and as deep as seas", they still do not want to become completely dependant on China for the JF-17. And it also clearly shows that they're not quite happy with Chinese avionics or the much-hyped SD-10 missile, which brings in BVR capability for the JF-17.
Excuse the poor english since its a babelfish translation.

Islamabad retained l' integrator ATE to equip between 50 and 100 specimens with its fighter plane, the JF-17. The contract is evaluated with more than 1 billion d' euros. After years of food shortage, France could strike a very great blow in matter d' Pakistan; armament. With l' exit d' a call d' offers, Islamabad has just retained l' integrator ATE to equip d' electronics and of missiles between 50 and 100 specimens of the JF-17, its fighter plan designed with l' helps of Beijing, one learned from corroborating sources, confirming information of the letter “Online Intelligence”. That is to say potentially more than 1 billion d' euros to be divided between l' French integrator d' South-African origin and its two principal partners on l' business, Thalès for l' electronics and MBDA for the missiles. A more modern technology. The contract is ready to be signed. But d' is needed; access qu' an agreement of safety is signed between the two countries, being given the very significant nature of the equipment concerned. “Nearly 90% of the way was made, and the points which remain are very few and do not count among most sensitive”, explains one source close to the negotiations. The concluding of this bilateral agreement could thus intervene in first half of the year. Remain a second condition, of size: that the country customer, heavily in debt, mobilizes l' money necessary, as he promises it. Eager to be equipped d' a “national” apparatus for missions d' attacks on the ground in particular, Pakistan called upon China in the middle of the years 1990. After tops and bottoms, the program finally took off. The production of the JF-17 began recently. But Islamabad, concerned not to depend d' only one supplier for such a strategic armament and to be equipped d' a more modern technology, deliberately limited its co-operation with Beijing. Thus, according to the plans of its army of l' air, only the first 50 specimens of the JF-17 will be produced entirely under Chinese licence. To equip the following, the government launched a call d' offers which two French companies, ATE and Astrac answered (a joint venture between Thalès and Safran), like Finmeccanica. For finally retaining l' offer d' ATE, even if l' information n' was not confirmed yet officially. The negotiated contract envisages a firm phase relating to 50 planes, and an optional section of the same number, for a delivery envisaged as from 2013. On the whole, Pakistan would like to build 400 JF-17, but this target remains to be confirmed. Just as the local authorities must prove qu' they will mobilize l' money necessary for the “occidentalized” standard of its fighter plan. “C' is the crucial point. But, jusqu' now, Pakistan always declared that the program belonged to its priorities”, explains one. Contacted, ATE n' s' did not wish; to express.

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Feb 2010 11:53

Head of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani

140,000 Pakistani troops involved in waging “Jihad-fi-Sabilillah” or “Jihad in the path of Allah” against Pathan / Pashtun fellow Muslim religious co-adherents and fellow citizens.

2,273 Pakistani troops killed while waging “Jihad-fi-Sabilillah” or “Jihad in the path of Allah” against Pathan / Pashtun fellow Muslim religious co-adherents and fellow citizens.

See Dawn here:

Kayani spells out terms for regional stability

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 03 Feb 2010 12:02

Kartik wrote: And important to note that even though their "flendship lemains as tall as mountains and as deep as seas", they still do not want to become completely dependant on China for the JF-17.

Wht this essentially means is that the bhikhmangas are desperately looking to squibble out of being pushed from the mountain top into the deep sea by their copyright chor friends.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 03 Feb 2010 13:16

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 04 Feb 2010 19:05

Top anti-India jehadis meet in PoK...|

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 535670.cms

I think we should must have done what Khans are doing....!

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 04 Feb 2010 19:16

Pak nukes ‘vulnerable’ as Army preoccupied with counter India programme

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Feb 2010 23:12

I did expect to see something of this sort happening soon and had been asking questions on Keypub forums regarding this..the K-8 is not capable enough to be an AJT for the F-16 Block 52 and the next fighter that the PAF will induct, the FC-20 (J-10). interesting to see that here the Hongdu L-15 is basically the exact same design as the Yakovlev Yak-130 and M-346. Internally different, but they recieved extensive help from the Russians to build this AJT. It'll definitely be cheaper than the M-346 and the engine may be a problem, but Russia could sort it out for them. After all, they're the engine providers for major Chinese aircraft like the FC-1 and J-10 as well as current J-11Bs.

Pakistan Eyes Acquisition of Chinese Training Aircraft
L-15 Buy Likely Would Phase Out 2 Other Trainers
By Usman Ansari
Published: 1 February 2010

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan may acquire the Chinese L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft to equip a unit to transition pilots to advanced fighters, eventually reducing the types of trainers in its fleet from four to two.

The need for the aircraft has arisen despite the operation of the Air Force's current basic/advanced jet trainer, the Sino-Pakistani K-8 Karakorum, which is a highly capable aircraft that has won numerous export orders. Experts dispute whether the L-15, manufactured by Hongdu, is a good fit for Pakistan's needs.

Kaiser Tufail, Pakistani defense analyst and former Air Force air commodore, said, "the L-15 makes sense only if K-8 is used solely for basic flying training and L-15 for fighter conversion. In such a case, the [older] T-37 [trainer] would be redundant.

"Considering the extensive [and expensive] structural life enhancement program that theT-37s have undergone, their useful life has been extended by at least 10 more years. The only solution to the dilemma would be to look for a buyer for the T-37s and recover some much-needed foreign exchange."

Tufail added, "Other than this training stream, the L-15 doesn't quite fit if the K-8 is to perform the role of fighter conversion."

However, defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium believes the interest in the L-15 is understandable.

The K-8 had been examined by the Air Force as a possible replacement for the current FT-5, a Chinese-made twin-seat MiG-17 Fresco, in the fighter conversion role when it first entered service in the early 1990s, he said. Pakistan also uses a small number of FT-6 trainers, a Chinese-made two-seat Mig-19 Farmer.

However, the Air Force "most likely felt that a dedicated aircraft purpose-built would be a better option," he said. The 1990s were also a time of considerable financial hardship for Pakistan, so the FT-5 therefore continued in service.

Shabbir further stated, "Now that the availability of an affordable and dedicated aircraft from China is assured, it probably led to the decision to go for the type in preparation for the future high-tech jets such as FC-20 andF-16C/D training requirements."

No official word from the Air Force, or the China Aviation Technology Import-Export Corp., was forthcoming. Officials' refusal to confirm the deal may stem from the fact that negotiations have not reached the final stages.

However, the Air Force has conducted detailed examinations of the aircraft, which included a visit of a single L-15 to Pakistan in December as it transited on its way to the Dubai Airshow. Negotiations are now being undertaken on technical aspects and pricing. The time frame for the conclusion of a deal is unknown.

Limited Combat Role

Like the K-8, the L-15 is also useful in the counterinsurgency role as it can carry a light warload of rockets and bombs, plus air-to-air missiles. There is no indication the aircraft is expected to be tasked with this role, but the capability is a point of interest for Pakistan.

The L-15 competed for orders from the People's Liberation Army Air Force and Naval Air Force against the cheaper and less capable JL-9. The JL-9 is heavily based on the F-7 series of fighters and looks set to be the final evolutionary stage of the MiG-21 Fishbed design.

The F-7 also makes up the backbone of Pakistan's Air Force and therefore the JL-9 could bring cost savings due to commonality, but that advantage appears to have been discounted.

This selling point for the JL-9 may have counted against it in the minds of the service's planners, Shabbir said. The L-15 was probably chosen "precisely because it is the more advanced design," and the "JL-9 most likely is not considered a good enough platform due to its F-7 lineage and airframe design, with its associated future growth limitations."

With the Pakistani F-7 variants expected to be retired this decade, the added cost savings associated with selecting the JL-9 would be unlikely to materialize. Also, the L-15 would allow Pakistan to reap economies of scale because of China's extensive modernization program.

Pakistan's interest in the L-15 may therefore have wider implications. Officially, at least, the L-15 has not fully entered service with the Chinese Air Force, but Pakistan's interest may indicate the Chinese are looking at the L-15 in a more favorable light.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Feb 2010 13:18

Wither the self proclaimed martial spirit?

The armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan lacks the confidence to ensure its own protection

:

Sunday, February 07, 2010

Pakistan Day parade cancelled for third consecutive year

LAHORE: The annual military parade – the Pakistan Day parade – has been cancelled for the third consecutive year due to security concerns ............................

The reason that the Joint Staff Headquarters has given for the cancellation is “credible intelligence reports of serious security threats due to engagement of troops in the Tribal Areas”

Daily Times

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 08 Feb 2010 16:31

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=98159

KARACHI: The PNS Shamshir, manufactured in collaboration with China, has been inducted in Pak Navy, Geo News reported Monday.

Addressing on this occasion of F-22P frigate ship joining the Pak Navy fleet, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani said all the needs of the armed forces will be fulfilled and they would be armed in view of world situation.

...

China has delivered the first of four F-22P frigates it is manufacturing for Pakistan, a military official says, UPI reports.

The China Daily said that the first frigate was delivered to Pakistan and the remaining three ships from a 2005 order are expected to be completed and delivered before the end of 2013.

...

Pakistan reportedly ordered four additional F-22P frigates from China in 2007, meaning Pakistan's military would eventually count eight of the vessels among its fleet.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 09 Feb 2010 02:02

x-posting from strat forum.....

durgesh wrote:A challenging doctrine

On Dec 13, 2001, five gunmen attacked the Indian parliament building. An hour later, 12 people including the gunmen were dead. In the days that followed, India blamed the militant groups based in Pakistan for the attack.

On Dec 18, 2001, the Indian government ordered the commencement of Operation Parakaram (Operation Victory), the largest mobilisation of Indian forces since 1971. It appeared that war was inevitable. Yet, after a 10-month standoff, Operation Parakaram was terminated. India had lost face.

The main reason why this happened was the time taken by the three strike corps to reach their wartime locations from central India. It took them three weeks during which time Pakistan was not only able to deploy its forces but also to internationalise the crisis.

Until 2004 the Indian army’s strategic thought envisaged the deployment of seven corps in defensive role and three corps in offensive role each built around an armoured division supported by mechanised infantry and artillery. After the defensive corps had blunted Pakistani attacks, the strike corps would undertake counter-offensive operations aimed at the destruction of the Pakistan Army’s two strategic reserves also built around an armoured division.

After Operation Parakaram the Indian army concluded that this doctrine was inflexible because of the huge size of the strike corps — they have long deployment times, are difficult to manoeuvre, while their concentration in the forward areas gives away the general strategic direction they would adopt. And above all, the doctrine inhibited a quick response to challenges posed by acts like the attack on the Indian parliament (and seven years later in Mumbai).

As a consequence, in 2004 the Indian army announced the development of a new limited war doctrine called Cold Start to respond to what it calls proxy wars by Pakistan. It would seek to inflict significant damage on the Pakistan Army before the international community could intervene on Pakistan’s behalf, while at the same time ensuring that the conflict did not escalate to a level where Pakistan was tempted to use nuclear weapons.

The essence of the Cold Start doctrine is reorganising the army’s offensive power that resides in the three strike corps into eight smaller division-sized integrated battle groups (IBGs) consisting of armour and mechanised infantry and artillery, closely supported by helicopter gunships, air force and airborne troops (parachute and heliborne). The IBGs are to be positioned close to the border so that three to five are launched into Pakistan along different axes within 72 to 96 hours from the time mobilisation is ordered.

Cold Start thus envisages rapid thrusts even when the defensive corps’ deployment is yet to be completed, and high-speed operations conducted day and night until the designated objectives are achieved.

In a war limited by time, mobility is the single-most important factor which if used to its full potential will help attain the political aim in the desired time and space framework. But this requires a perfect matching of the physical means of mobility with the mobility of the mind, as the value of a highly mobile force can be reduced to zero by commanders whose minds are characterised by lack of imagination, initiative and flexibility. “Adherence to dogmas has destroyed more armies and lost more battles and lives than any other cause in war. No man of fixed opinions can make a good general.” (J.F.C. Fuller)

In the 1965 war the Indian 1 Corps, spearheaded by the 1st Armoured Division, had penetrated seven miles only into Pakistani territory in Sialkot sector in 21 days, while in the 1971 war, the same corps having about eight tank units did marginally better by penetrating eight miles in 14 days, that too when opposed by light covering troops. In both wars the Indian army was schematic in its operations. Changes in dispositions such as forming a new defensive line, reassigning of objectives, switching forces not in accordance with their original plan, took time. Above all, their commanders at all levels lacked enterprise, imagination and initiative.

Given this, while Cold Start is a sound concept, though not original, the Indian war directors need to question the ability of their commanders at all levels to execute it efficiently and sustain the advantage gained from striking first. The “law of the initial advantage of the aggressor” assumes critical importance, as it is the aggressor who generally sets the pattern which operations will take. The Germans in the Second World War and the Israelis in the 1956 and 1967 wars had translated the concept of blitzkrieg, characterised by surprise, speed and concentration, with devastating results against numerically superior forces because they had a flair for conducting high-speed operations with flexibility, rapidity and less military routine.

The probable objective areas for Cold Start could be (1) Ravi-Chenab corridor from two directions, an IBG along Jammu-Sialkot-Daska axis and another across the Ravi to link up with the first IBG, and (2) in the south against Reti-Rahim Yar Khan-Kashmore complex. To counter Cold Start, the Pakistan Army will have to create more armour-dominated brigade-sized reserves from the existing resources if possible, and a more flexible military system and structure.

For Pakistan the dimensions of time and space assume paramount importance as it lacks territorial depth, is opposed by a larger adversary and lacks the resources to fight a protracted war. The strategy of pre-emption is thus imposed on Pakistan in the same way it was imposed on Israel prior to the 1967 war. The fact that the Pakistani Army can occupy their wartime locations earlier than the Indian army confers on it the ability to pre-empt Cold Start; failure to do so could lead to firing of low-yield tactical warheads at IBGs as they cross the start line or even earlier.

Cold Start would be a portent of escalation, and inevitably a disaster for both. It is a doctrine that challenges both countries.

The writer is a retired brigadier of the Pakistan Army.