Bharat Rakshak

At 140 Kts plane would have abt 30 seconds to stop in normal landing at mangalore with 200 mts TD and 2200 Mts available
For late TD at 1000 Mts with only 1400Mts available, it would take 19 seconds to stop. Should have been sufficient?? Big question.
Whether Abort command of ATC contributed to Pilot's indecision to engage RT.Still would have been sufficient for take off, but for autobrake engaging and 8 second time needed for full throttle. That leaves only 10 seconds. Could have accelerated, may be .Trying to take off. May be.Broken wings so no takeoff possible. That means sand trap is too small leaving no margin for any error but for near perfect landing.

All this is too disturbing. I had experience of being in air for abt 40 mts in heavy rain, with two lightening strike on wing tips , sounded like bomb blast even inside the cabin, abt 10 feet downdraft twice and bumping against upwind, before landing at Lohegaon, pune Kighfisher. landed safely in light drizzle. thanking God. Many were telling pilot to go to Mumbai.When you land in Delhi, you have only one corridor for approach, rest is restricted airspace of airforce. So plane lands and take off from that corridor. May be now they would have opened another side. Fog is equally problematic with many a times non optimally functional Raytheon ATC Radar. So you go to Jaipur as ILS CAT-III is not trustworthy.
Life is solely in hands of trained pilots.

Others, who are frquently flying long distances, would have more tales to tell.

why do tires burst on landing or takeoff ? is is something related to very thin margins of engineering to save on cost and space? these cant exactly be the rs 100/- bicycle tires from the local market.

ibnlive:

New Delhi: A Srinagar-bound SpiceJet aircraft with 186 passengers on board today landed under emergency conditions in New Delhi after Air Traffic Control learnt that it had suffered a tyre-burst while taking off and asked it to return.

The Boeing 737-800 was airborne for 15 minutes and had travelled nearly 100 miles before it turned around. The aircraft safely landed back in Delhi and all passengers are safe, an airline spokesperson said.

Pilots of another aircraft, which landed soon after the SpiceJet flight SG-224 took off at 1430 hrs, noticed pieces of tyres on the runway and informed the ATC, which swung into action and asked the cockpit crew of the low-cost carrier plane to return.

A full emergency was declared at the IGI Airport when the aircraft made a precautionary landing at around 1450 hours, airport sources said.

As fire brigades, ambulances, engineering teams and other services remained positioned, the aircraft first made a low pass over the runway.

Airport engineers then noticed a burst tyre on the right side of the aircraft and asked the pilots to try a smooth sail landing.

"Keeping the safety of passengers in mind, as a precaution, the aircraft returned to Delhi. We followed all procedures for landing in such situations," the spokesperson said.

chaanakya wrote:

This one seems to be Madeira Airport. It is now close to 2.8 kms in length. Also check out the link on WHY the airport was rebuilt. TAP 425 incident.

While on final approach to runway 24 in heavy rain, strong winds and poor visibility, the aircraft touched down 2000 feet past the threshold, and started hydroplaning. With just about 3000 feet of runway left, the crew tried desperately to stop, applying maximum reverse thrust and brakes, but the aircraft slid off the runway with a ground speed of approximately 43 knots and plunged over a 200 feet steep bank hitting a nearby bridge and crashing on the beach; splitting in two pieces and bursting into flames.

Sounds eeriely familiar doesn't it. Remember,with wet conditions, for a B 737-800,the runway length needed is around 7000 ft.So the current Mangalore runway is barely adequate. It needs deep fixes and fast. However, we dont need to go the Madiera route and build a bridge/structure spanning two hillocks.



But rather change alignment and use some common sense.Like for instance with this apparantly ridiculous orientation, with all that land along top of the ridge (roughly perpendicular to current alignment) where there is a winding road, the runway should have probably been built in that direction , unlessof course there is a cliff right up where that road ends and is not seen in the picture. It is crazy..The Mangalore airport , even if the current runway 2 alignment is the best possible one, they should possibly extend the old runway east where the topography is more benign , I think.

Maybe this one was meant for smaller lighter planes with far less take off and land distances, lower wing loading,higher lift margins, / whatever.. But Mangalore operates B737s and A320 class. We need better than this. I doubt Kulu and Shimla kind of airports have services other than dornier / at beast ATR 30 kinds ... But Mangalore is different. Esp with all the "Gelf" and expat Mumbai crowd,it needs something better.

But first fix the babu monkeys reponsible for this mess..

Singha wrote:why do tires burst on landing or takeoff ? is is something related to very thin margins of engineering to save on cost and space? these cant exactly be the rs 100/- bicycle tires from the local market.

Those tyres are designed to take immense loads and pressure and temp changes. Think of it.It is -40C or something when the plane is cruising, then it comes to land at a steaming tropcial place like Chennai, the tyres hit the tarmac, it takes the load of the aircraft, goes from zero to full rotation while sliding and building up fricition (and depositing rubber on the tarmac in the process,just check out the end of any runway) and starts spinning and reaches full operating temperature in just a few seconds. It really is extreme operating conditions.

I had posted on this long long ago. The only material that can withstand this kind of thing is made my mother nature. None.. Absolultey NONE of the man made rubber and other materials can withstand such extreme use/abuse. Only natural rubber can.In fact,it is speculated, that much of Aeroflots terrible safety record was because of the use of synthetic rubber in their planes, coz the west via having Malaysia and Indoneisa as"poodles" had locked in the supply of this "strategic" material. In fact in the old days of the Soviet Union, India's rubber exports to the soviet union from Kerala were significant, most of it going for aircraft tyres.d

If you come to know that your airline is using some el cheapo PakPanda tyre made from synthetic "lubbel", just jump out of that plane before it leaves that gate. An aircraft tire is re-treaded some 70/80 times during it's life, unless your truck tyre,which probably is retreated twice or thrice max.

and yet they seem to burst routinely atleast in india.

Boeing Do's and Don't From flight data briefings for Pilots.

Do's
If a long landing is likely to occur, go-around.
 After touchdown, immediately apply maximum reverse thrust using all of the available runway for
stopping to minimize brake temperatures.
 Use flaps 30 rather then flaps 40 is recommended to provide increased margin to flap
placard speed.
 The pitch attitude will be about 2 or 3° higher than for Flaps 30 & care must be taken not to flare
too much and allow a float to develop.
 Wind correction may be limited by the flap placards and load relief system.
 After touchdown, verify speedbrake lever UP and immediately apply maximum reverse thrust
using all of the available runway for stopping to minimize brake temperatures.

Don't

Where possible avoid landing in tailwinds, on runways with negative slope, or on runways with
less than normal braking conditions.
 Do not carry excess airspeed on final. This is especially important when landing during an engine
inoperative or other non-normal condition. At weights above the maximum landing weight, the final
approach maximum wind correction may be limited by the flap placards and load relief system.
 Do not hold the airplane off waiting for a smooth landing. Fly the airplane onto the runway at the
normal touchdown point. If a long landing is likely to occur: GO-AROUND!
 Do not to flare too much and allow a float to develop.
 Avoid any overweight landing on a flat tire.
 Do not attempt to make an early runway turnoff after landing.

vina wrote:

chaanakya wrote:

This one seems to be

But first fix the babu monkeys reponsible for this mess..

Yes ,first one is Madeira or Funchal airfield runway- as it was known before that accident and rebuilt.
Second one is Sabah Juancho E. Yrausquin airport,Netherlands.

old and retired DGCA babus , probably responsible for this mess, were having field day on 22nd on all News Channel.One Chairman Technical Committee of Mangalore Airport was also brought on the Channel. He was stated to have refused to give clearance. You know what happens in such cases. Its mostly political decisions, with technical arguments given post-facto to buttress the decision.

I would secon your statement that Mangalore is a sub optimal airport, unforgiving in case of error.

Playing havoc with lives of passengers.

Remember, Lalu had reduced fund allotment for safety measures for train operations. citing find crunch. More new trains were started for political reasons or public pressure, compromising safety

Many a times I feel we are, as a rule unprofessional in our approach, in our chosen vocation , compromise too much on everything, don't stand up for standards, exceptions apart.

and yet they seem to burst routinely atleast in india.

Yes. They are somewhat routine (law of averages..statistical basis etc)..that is the nature of the beast. That is why you have multiple back ups via different systems in air safety. That is how it is made safe and aviation traditionally set high standards.

rsingh wrote:On 18th May I Indigo flight from Kolkata to Jaipur. Engine on left made terrible noise. Horrified I called official PYT and complained. She assured me that it is normal on plane and everything is ok.

Couple of years back, I was on erstwhile Indian flight, KUL-DEL via BKK. Just as the aircraft commenced the take off roll i.e. when the pilots applied take off power, the left engine made loud noise as if it is going to explode. On questioning the flight attendant, she told me everything is OK and then sent her boss, an old lady, to pacify me. Same thing again and then came the flight engineer with all the explanations of how thrust is generated in turbofans and how the noise is relevant in this case. Later at BKK we were told that the flight is delayed by one hour and no specific reason was given. During the second leg, the flight engineer told me that they had to swap the engine presumably the left noise making one.

Cheers....

but how would a AI plane in BKK swap an engine? the only such facility for AI is probably mumbai?

This incident reminded me of 2006, when I had a nightmarish experience returning to Chennai from KL (Malaysian). My plane did an aborted landing in drizzling condition. The flight path was very unusual i.e. flying very low at unusually higher speeds. I was wondering what the heck, and the flight took off again, and then landed after a round. No mention from the plane crew or any one. I came to know later from my sister that the status in the display board at Chennai airport read *landed* but flipped back again.

Singha wrote:but how would a AI plane in BKK swap an engine? the only such facility for AI is probably mumbai?

I think they do use other airlines facilities in case of emergency - it is either a reciprocal agreement or paid service.

Mangalore airport

yesterday a A320 in patna aborted its landing at 400m altitude due to est landing point being long and did a go-around. soon as alert passengers felt the bang of the landing gear going up again , the tension level rose.

after the landing which was "hard" the captain spoke to the people to calm them down and apologize for the hard landing but he said the patna runway is short.

TOI reports Patna is only 7500ft of which 6300ft is useable....cutting it quite thin there

but in Patna you do not fall off a cliff, IMO the main reason for Deaths.

yeah but having such a runway in a state capital with so many flights is not the best policy. other apts that handle A300 size are longer = eg guwahati is 9000ft and has room on one side to expand if need be.

The land from the base of the runway to the West between the Two refineries unto the Beach
is flat with only two small mounds of hillock present, why did not they built it there.

Singha wrote: TOI reports Patna is only 7500ft of which 6300ft is useable....cutting it quite thin there

Whats on the other 1200ft? - has dear Laloo started some garib kinara housing in that portion?

Raja Bose wrote:

Singha wrote: TOI reports Patna is only 7500ft of which 6300ft is useable....cutting it quite thin there

Whats on the other 1200ft? - has dear Laloo started some garib kinara housing in that portion?

You never know Hakim saheb, our airports are truly strange at times. The brand new third runway at IGI is actually one of the longest in Asia at 4.4km, but a 'strategically' placed 61ft Shiva statue at the bottom of the runway, right on the approach path reduces the usable length by almost 1km. Planning at its best at what is probably going to be the best airport in India otherwise with the new T3 coming on stream in the near future.

why cant they move the statue? its not as if its kedarnath or badrinath situated there. dont think the big guy will mind too!

vina wrote:But Mangalore operates B737s and A320 class. We need better than this. I doubt Kulu and Shimla kind of airports have services other than dornier / at beast ATR 30 kinds ...

Shimla and Kulu have ATR services for sure.Maybe other smaller aircraft too.

Very very few pilots are actually willing to operate here.
A great majority of pilots flatly refuse to operate to these airports.

But if you asked the people of both these towns, they would demand air services for sure.

Singha wrote:why cant they move the statue? its not as if its kedarnath or badrinath situated there. dont think the big guy will mind too!

Saar,

There is a lot of religious competition due to dirty politics.

If the rop and rol can take a particular stand then why not the others? Give and take should be equal and applied across the board.

Just my 2 cents.

FDR seems to have been finally located after three days. DGCA says its 'largely' intact. To be sent to Delhi for analysis.

chetak wrote:

Singha wrote:why cant they move the statue? its not as if its kedarnath or badrinath situated there. dont think the big guy will mind too!

Saar,

This region has a lot of religious competition due to dirty politics.

If the rop and rol have taken a particular stand then why not the others? Give and take should be equal and applied across the board.

Just my 2 cents.

As chetak ji points out, religion is a 'touchy' subject I suppose. The statue is located at the bottom of the new runway and is separated from the airport area by NH-8. See this Wikimapia map of the location for a better understanding of the location.

It is clearly visible to the naked eye on the left side of the plane as you come into land on this runway.

They've been negotiating with the local goons and netas for a long time now. It seems there is a political angle now.
They've offered to shift the statue to an alternate location, like they shift all those big buildings in videsh, but no, the problem is still unresolved.

The thing to note is that the statue is not completely in line of the runway, but a good 160+ meters away from the side of the runway.




It is the height of that statue which is the main issue. It is 80 Ft tall. There is another statue - one of Buddha that is also going to be of worry to the pilots. This one is a 50 ft statue. NO PERMISSION from the AAI has been taken apparantly. No one was bothered that such a permission is needed.
It is only now when the media has raised this issue that these things are coming up.

it is 160m before the runway starts, and 80ft height means aircraft will have to come in higher
hence the first few km or so of the runway is unused.

correction of minor inaccuracy.

80 feet high statue, not 80 m.

ps:- am not in support of the statue

Singha wrote:but how would a AI plane in BKK swap an engine? the only such facility for AI is probably mumbai?

Singha saar, that was Indian i.e. former Indian Airlines and AFAIK they had a "technical stopover" at BKK and no pax used to board at BKK (even under normal circumstances). BKK was never mentioned in your itin and from PAX point of view that was a sheer wastage of time which used to add around an hour and half to your total flight time. It was cheap and I used to fly business class which was fare wise a little more than the economy of other carriers.

IMVHO they used to load some cargo stuff at BKK and hence the "Technical Stopover".

Cheers....

chetak wrote:If the rop and rol can take a particular stand then why not the others? Give and take should be equal and applied across the board.

In Bengaluru too religious icons have been used for all dirty purposes. Encroach government land, then build a temple/coupola there. Or else start a business establishment (eg: petrol bunk), then build a temple right on the opposite side, so that another chap cannot start a similar establishment across the road etc. are two things which I noticed.

Yes, moving the statue away is going to be herculean task (even though it is common sense to do so), but the blame lies squarely on various government policies and actions in which some religions were always touched with "kids gloves". Other religions have now learnt the trick and expect some drama from their side as well.

Edited later: Just managed to see the image posted by Gagan now. From the image as I see it the compound holding the Shiva statue is 200mts away. The statue itself may be some where close to 250 mts away. The landing point is also 250+m away from the nearest road (NH8 in map).

Can any one explain to me about the wing-span of these air crafts and the angle at which they land at the airport? In the image the run way is seen clearly. Can we assume that the area appearing in grey (with thows arrows) is the entire runway, in which the air-plane would land up? It would also be worth while to check if the entire air craft would be landing inside the gray area.

If my understanding is correct, an air-plane would be perfectly inside the gray area (the runway) when landing or taking off. Taking note of that the Shiva statue seems to be quite far away. Just take the runway as a scale reference and move down to the location of Shiva statue. We can also compare the tall buildings around Bengaluru HAL Airport (in a map with a similar scale). Those buildings are way too tall than 80 ft .

I think the statue(80 feet high) being on the other side of highway (160m ie ~ 500 feet separation) is a non sequitor. Maybe secular media brought it up to bash the majority religion while at it after the Mangalore crash.
Now even "allowed" gets questioned especially if its majority religion.

A DGCA official shows the “Black Box” recovered from the site of the AI Express plane crash in Mangalore on Tuesday. The plane crashed on Saturday leaving 158 dead.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 437784.ece

The cylindrical object mentioned by Mr. Girish is the 'Crash Survivable Memory Unit' (CSMU) and as the name suggests, it is the most important component of the unit which also has an inbuilt power supply system.

According to investigators, despite being charred on the surface, the CSMU’s data is unlikely to be affected. The outer layer or housing of this robust unit is usually made of steel armour. Inside the armour is a layer of insulation and within this a thick “thermal block”. The memory board, which stores all the flight data, is at the core of this unit.

WRT the delhi airport runway, and shiva statue. I suppose there would be no problems if aircraft do approach and landing as per #1. But there would be a serious and unnecessary risk if #2 is used.


But the question is, just like Mangalore, this is a potential disaster waiting to happen. What if a plane is in trouble and is attempting an aborted landing or takeoff in very heavy crosswinds, and clips that statue? That plane and its aviation fuel load is going to fall on a very heavily populated part of Delhi. As it is there is a congress vs BJP tussle going on there.

When things have to go wrong, it can do so for the most flimsy of reasons. And this one seems pretty serious to me.
One of the solutions suggested was moving that statue. Another one was to remove the very high pedestal on which the statue sits to reduce its height. The local public refuse to comply, there is a court case in progress.

I believe FAR rules for defining take-off are 120 feet high. So if the plane took off ie is at >120 feet, then the statue at 80feet high is non-sequitor.

There is another problem that IGI Delhi has to contend with. North of the airfield is a No Fly Zone because of the VIP areas. PMO, Parliament, Rashtrapati bhavan etc are bad ass no fly zones. There are surely anti aircraft systems deployed there to take out any aircraft that ventures into this area. Besides IAF flies CAP flights off Hindon to escort any plane that dares venture here.
In fact the IAF was not allowing the smaller runway to be used for operations in the north-eastern direction because of this, then they allowed ops for a few hours only.
One of my hobbies when I was in nai dilli was to do plane spotting. And the line after line of planes that were lined up for landing was pretty heavy. I routinely saw 3 - 4 planes in the air, one after the other, landing lights on approaching or lining up for a landing.

Even now planes have to go north of delhi, fly between hindon over the yamuna, onto noida in a big loop a couple of times before they get their landing slots.

New Delhi needs another international / domestic airport. There is one proposed 75 Kms off in Noida, close to where vijay mallya was planning a formula 1 race track.
PS: All those speculating in land might want to take a look at this area for land grabbing. The prices have still not hit the roof :;):

Early this month had to fly at very short notice and ended up booking on Qatar Airways. I have flown them once before and was it ok. Being an emergency did not shop around like usual either.

What amazed me was that at Doha, every gate had a Qatar Airways flight flying to almost every corner of the globe. There was a United and a Jet flight, but a large majority was only Qatar. These guys seem to have gamed well a model that is keeping their flights full as the passenger load was 99% from what I could tell with long lines at most gates.

Boeing 737-800 spec
Wing Span=34.3 Mts( for Boeing 787-9 Wing Span is 60.1Mts)
With Winglets=35.8 Mts
Runway width requirement= 45 Mts ( IGIA has 70.8 Mts.)



For takeoff
The 737 is designed to operate over short to medium ranges from sea level
runways of less than 6,000 ft (1,830 m) in length.
With Tailwind 9130 fts ( for some types , with MTOW RL may be 13540 fts with tailwind)
Obstacle Clearance
By regulation the net flight path, which begins at 35 ft above the takeoff surface, must clear all obstacles by 35 ft. This net flight path is the actual flight path reduced by a climb gradient equal to 0.8%, 0.9%, and 1.0% for two-, three-, and four-engine aircraft respectively.

If the runway at the destination is forecast to be dry at the time of dispatch, the aircraft must come to a stop within 60% of the available runway length. Therefore, the dry runway length required is 1.67 (1/0.6) times the landing distance calculated per FAR/JAR 25.125.
If the runway at the destination is forecast to be wet at the time of dispatch, the runway length required is 115% of the required dry runway length.

The landing distance includes the flare from a 50-ft threshold to touchdown, a transition segment during which brakes are applied and spoilers extended, and a stopping segment. A flare time of approximately 4.5 seconds, established by flight test, results in a flare distance of 1,000 to 1,200 ft. A transition time of 1 second is assumed when the auto spoilers are armed, and 2 seconds if the spoilers are extended manually. The deceleration during the stopping segment assumes the maximum manual braking coefficient demonstrated in flight test on a dry runway.

When reverse thrust is used in the calculation of advisory landing distance, a 1 second delay to engage reversers is assumed, followed by the time it takes the reverser to deploy and spin up to the selected level. Furthermore, it is assumed that reverse thrust is reduced to idle between 60 knots and 30 knots.

A typical 3-degree approach has the aircraft crossing the threshold at a height of 50 feet. At a 3-degree descent (meaning little to no flare), the airplane will touch down just about 950 feet down the runway. Even for takeoff it may be 3 deg ascent. ( need to avoid tail strike is angle is steep)



Now coming to Shiva statue

It was there well before the construction of runway began. It is not in direct flight path anyway. height as reported ,here, 80 ft is not much to obstruct the landing or takeoff.AS one may notice that descending aricraft would land normally 950 to 1000 ft down the runway. At threshold it is at height of 50ft that too when fully lined up with centre line . Even when there is some deviation from centre line, 70 mts runway width is sufficient for large aircraft to have a regulation landing. Boeing 787 has slightly higher wingspan so little more accuracy would be needed.
At 950 ft plane would be at a height of 50ft+ tan3* 900=184 Ft , i.e 350 Mts to statue That adds 134 ft height to the plane. So while crossing the statue plane should be at least 180 to 200 ft height either in ascending or descending mode of glide scope.

If wing of a plane is touching shiva statue then it is already in crash landing mode, way off the centreline .


From the runway configuration as seen from google earth plane would be touching down or taking off from from 1400mts to 1700 mts
Still 2060 to 3000 mts for takeoff or landing is available. Touchdown point at the runway is by way of either ample precaution or because of shiva statue .It may be known to AAI. In any case it has to conform to ICAO.





====================================================
Note:- All references courtesy Boeing Technical Manual, Specific regulation ref is omitted. Para bolded could be used for analysing Mangalore flight as well.

True to form , after crashing the plane in Mangalore, the AI parasites have now gone on a "flash strike" and why , because the management gagged them from talking to the media! .


The attitude of those unionized parasites is simply appalling. The govt should take this opportunity to fire those sorry a**es of those 700 vermin for good and cut costs. Good riddance.

Best of all, it would be great if Air Parasite is closed for good. They have stayed on for far too long to do anyone any good. Go, in the name of God, GO!.

I think the public should simply boycott AI . Of course die hard masochists like Bade Saar will still inflict that punishment on themselves, but for ordinary people, it will make a lot of sense.

And now our Poojya Governor of Karnataka , Shri Bharadwaj has come out and said in Al-Hundi that the Mangalore "air crash" was because of "gross negligence" and it was a "disaster waiting to happen". Question is, if the good governor knew of the "disaster waiting to happen" what was he doing about it?. Hatching eggs ?

This tragedy should not be taken as an excuse to lash out and give way to old prejudices.

If all India had were Private Airlines, who would repeat this, if needed:

13 August to 11 October 1990 – Air India entered the Guinness Book of World Records for the most people evacuated by a civil airliner. Over 111,000 people were evacuated from Amman to Mumbai – a distance of 4,117 km, by operating 488 flights in association with Indian Airlines, from 13 August to 11 October 1990 – lasting 59 days. The operation was carried out during Persian Gulf War in 1990 to evacuate Indian expatriates from Kuwait and Iraq.

Don't Forget that Islamic Terrorists specifically targeted Air India Building (Nariman Point) in 1993 Blasts - there is symbolism of Air India as well.

Public Sector all over the world has problems.

This is a tragic, but, one-off, freak incident.

And by the way, Air India is set to become a full Star Alliance member by March 2011. Those who wish to travel by other Airlines are free to do so, no one has a gun to their head.

Not exactly related (but not all together tangential either), some folks here who are now fuming over "unionized parasites" were singing praises of Public Sector Banks in the 2008-09 period when ICICI was rumored to be collapsing. The Fixed Deposits in these Banks was supposedly the safest place to invest, and park money.

Last contact between ATC and Flt. 812:

No indication that ATC saw anything unusual in the approach, nothing about landing 2400 feet too far etc. There was no "abort" instruction, no MayDay, etc. etc. NOTHING.

So it had to be a catastrophic, sudden failure that occurred after touchdown, totally beyond the pilots' ability to deal with it. Like thrust reverser failure on one side.

if you look at a runway head on, and draw a line both sides from center of runway but at some X' angle to form a V , that defines the safe zone where no structure may protrude from ground into this V. as you further from runway its safe for more taller buildings.

if flights are landing 1km down from the NH8 due to this statue, then it means the statue is protruding into the V zone and this addl runway is
nothing but a safety area for flights landing from the west and facing some emergency.

but the radisson hotel must also be around 80 feet tall and it has been there 15 yrs. dont see why the statue is a problem and the radisson is not.