Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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RamaY
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^^ Thank you 8)

Even Samkhya of Kapila Maharshi (who was none other than Vishnu himself born to Kardama muni and Devahuti - It is an extremely awesome story for-what/how Kardama muni did his penance, and how he married Devahuti and how they had Kapila as their son etc... lots of scientific stuff there, including theory of multiverse) starts with One (the Param) which is nothing but God in our discussion here.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

there is difference between Nirishwarvaad and Naastika-vaad..

Nirishwar-vaadam - Atheism
Naastika vaadam - refusal of acceptance of Vedas as supreme authority.

Naastika atheist schools - Bauddha, jaina, charvaka, lokayata, ajivika
Aastika atheist schools - Saamkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Poorva-Mimamsa, Vaisheshika,
Aastika semi-atheist school - Yoga
Aastika theist school - Vedanta (with all three flavours), Bhakti
Naastika theist school - Sikh Pantha

all of them are Indic (Hindu) schools and hence dharmic because all of them accept Dharma.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Atri-ji

Good classification. Thank you.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

Few old articles from blog on Aastika Atheism

1.The theory of Yoga

2.Aastika philosophies of India
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pulikeshi »

brihaspati wrote:Is not that an exposition of atheism from "opposition"? Its difficult to get the original version from the atheist side.
Agreed, but the fundamental problem is not bias when it comes to Dharmic
thinking. What we lack is the epistemological training to understand the depth of
what these critics are arguing. In the Dharmic tradition, the critic had to take the
side of what he/she was critical of and argue from their point of view, before showing
why there is a better way. Can't get more rigorous than that....
Remember when this was written around 1331 (when he was elected to Sankaracharya post)

Also, the Dharmics believe that Atheism is fine, but it is a harder path - a lonely one.

PS: That's what you get for asking a die-hard Advaithin a question on Atheism :P
I am Ishwara - so Atheism seems absurd, as I will have to quit believing in myself :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

I think they are Vedic in the sense that they claim descent and legitimacy in the Veda (afaik) just like some other schools of hindu philosophy. So I don't think it is fair to say that they did not accept Veda.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Pulikeshi wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Is not that an exposition of atheism from "opposition"? Its difficult to get the original version from the atheist side.
Agreed, but the fundamental problem is not bias when it comes to Dharmic
thinking. What we lack is the epistemological training to understand the depth of
what these critics are arguing. In the Dharmic tradition, the critic had to take the
side of what he/she was critical of and argue from their point of view, before showing
why there is a better way. Can't get more rigorous than that....
Remember when this was written around 1331 (when he was elected to Sankaracharya post)

Also, the Dharmics believe that Atheism is fine, but it is a harder path - a lonely one.

PS: That's what you get for asking a die-hard Advaithin a question on Atheism :P
I am Ishwara - so Atheism seems absurd, as I will have to quit believing in myself :mrgreen:
I have chosen the easier way out - accept the quest while refusing to be be bound by answers already proposed as well as those I may find myself in my journey. Accepting even the "advaitin" position is probelmatic. Apply "neti neti" to "self" and "Ishwara"! :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

guru log: In the texts of Mahabharatam are there any reference to different Indic darsanas like Buddhism? I am not asking if Buddhism was explicitly mentioned, it probably was not. But were these philosophies Buddhist or Jaina - indirectly mentioned, mocked, argued, highlighted, glorified ityadi ?

Before somebody asks me to look up the period of Mahabharatam and the centuries that Buddha and Mahavira lived, let me tell you I know that. I have read some of the articles dating Ramayanam and Mahabharatam; so I have various dates. The current copy of texts have evolved over time. Hence the question, so don't beat the hell out of this poor-ebil-yindoo sdre.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by jamwal »

Many thanks
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by niran »

SwamyG wrote:guru log: In the texts of Mahabharatam are there any reference to different Indic darsanas like Buddhism? I am not asking if Buddhism was explicitly mentioned, it probably was not. But were these philosophies Buddhist or Jaina - indirectly mentioned, mocked, argued, highlighted, glorified ityadi ?

Before somebody asks me to look up the period of Mahabharatam and the centuries that Buddha and Mahavira lived, let me tell you I know that. I have read some of the articles dating Ramayanam and Mahabharatam; so I have various dates. The current copy of texts have evolved over time. Hence the question, so don't beat the hell out of this poor-ebil-yindoo sdre.
version i read of Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsidas Ramayan, and Mahabharat, i find no mention,
however in Vishnu Puran i do find dissing of an unnamed religion, it says there will be a man
who will portray himself as the savior and ask people to stop Vedic life styles or Yagn or puja
and his followers will proclaim him as the Son of God or an Avataar, it could be, any one among the
Xtian, Islam, Buddhism or Jainism.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pratyush »

Guys,

Just finished the reading of the Translation by C Rajgopalachari of Mahabharata. A wonderfully and lucidly written translation Rajaji. The most beautiful part was the commentary on some of the events described in the original Mahabharata which made the book even more precious.

The one part that I found to be Interesting is the status of women in the Mahabharata era. E.g the proposal for marriage made by Rukumini to Krishna using a Brahman as a messenger. It showed that a woman could take her own decisions and act Independently if she so wished. It will not be seen as scandalous behavior by the society as a whole. the other was that in marriage a man could marry a women of a lower social status, but a woman was not really encouraged to take a husband who was of lower social status.

Also it has no refrence to the Laws of Manu. Should one presume that they were codified after the composition of Mahabharat.

It is a work that I will recommend all of you to read, if you have not already read it.

JMT
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Isnt MB full of such "radicalisms"? Start with the core emotional issue that led to the fight - apart from "land" - the fact of Draupadi's polyandry? Or the "Niyoga" process of getting "kshetraja" children? The woman proposing occurs in other places of older texts too - outside of MB. Widow remarriage or liasons is indicated - in Uloopis story.

Manusmriti could be just one of the smritis - and there were rival texts. For example Parashara's one deviates from Manu - Parashara gives explicit conditions for a wife to seek remarriage, including widowhood.

"Conservative" rules need not be later than "liberal" - that is a mistaken conclusion from linear schema of historical development. Manu could have been earlier than MB [or core parts of Manu at least] - since we have apparent cases of hardened attitudes towards sexual deviation from social norms in early prehistoric humans in Europe in the stone age. In India, genetic indications are that endogamous practices were established perhaps as early as 6000 BCE.

In fact, widow remarriage seems to have been practiced in even in the 8th century in Sindhi brahmins - as I have pointed out before. Then there is of course the controversial story in the Gupta dynasty. This would be impossible if "Manu" was so powerful a symbol of "Brahminical conservatism" in the latter half of first millenium CE!

[edited. Agreed, ramanaji]
Last edited by brihaspati on 17 Aug 2010 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bji, What contorversy in Gupta dynasty? And can you comment on Apastamba's rules?
In Andhra his rules dictate family life.

Also can you use a different term than indulged? How about "practised"?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pratyush »

brihaspati wrote:
SNIP...
In fact, widow remarriage seems to have been indulged in even in the 8th century in Sindhi brahmins - as I have pointed out before. Then there is of course the controversial story in the Gupta dynasty. This would be impossible if "Manu" was so powerful a symbol of "Brahminical conservatism" in the latter half of first millenium CE!
It is those radical ideas which fill me with hope about the future of our culture.

Added Later:- Regarding Draupdi, Isn't there a tribe in Himachal Pradesh where a woman can have more then one husbands.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Yagnasri »

I think he refers to the story of chandraguptas marriage tp the widow of Rama gupta
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Any insight into this series?

The Mystery Of The Mahabharata (Set 5 Vols. )
by N. V. Thadani


Price : $ 111.11


The Mystery of the Mahabhararata The idea of the Mahabharata as a great picture of a great Philosophy of Life, occurred to me almost like a dream. I have pursued it for nearly eight years, and the result of my study, relating to the Vedas, is contained in this volume, and that relating to the Mahabharata will follow in the next. My study of the Mahabharata led me to the Vedas, Upanishads, Satapatha Brahmana and the systems of Hindu Philosophy; for the systems of Hindu Philosophy for the 'Story' is, even as it claims to be a picture of all sacred philosophy and literature; and it is in this light that I have explained and interpreted it.

ISBN - 9788180901317

Pages : 1576
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ramana wrote:Bji, What contorversy in Gupta dynasty? And can you comment on Apastamba's rules?
In Andhra his rules dictate family life.

Also can you use a different term than indulged? How about "practised"?
Yes Narayana Rao ji has correctly pointed this episode out.

ramana ji,

apastambha's sutras are fascinating. They have many things in common with Baudhayana, Vashistha, Gautama dharmasutras and Manu. But what is interesting is a close parallel in Manu with the Brit moralists of Victorian period, where not only prescriptive laws but also emotional moralizing is crucial. Compared to this, Apastambha, is surprisingly non-moralizing.

I have always wondered about the conventional dating of Apastambha - placing him as an earlier author based on the simplicity of life he deals with. Again this is an assumption that history always proceeds from simpler to more complex, more liberal to more conservative etc.

What could be critical to compare is the case of role of women as envisaged in Apastambha and Manu. In the former she is a joint participant in dharmacharana, and most of her rights and roles are envisaged within that framework. in fact the greatest and most striking differences lie in the penalties or penances imposed on the "adulterous" woman. In Apastambha things are quite light and private - decided between the "guardian" and the woman, [except one quite harsh public one about being fed to the dogs]. Girls can seek their own husbands once menarche starts and her guardians have not given her a husband, or even seek to have children if widowed without issue. The penalties are generic and not nuanced. Whereas, in Manu, it is much more nuanced and the willingness and "guardedness" of the woman is used to determine quantum of punishment.

Manu seems to be scared of the sexually independent woman outside the domestic scenario. He treats mendicant or religious women not bound in homes and moving or acting freely in general areas of social or public life, as suspicious and possibly licentious or spies. This indicates a social scenario where women are active in the public sphere - corresponding to a stable and expanding society, possibly an empire, which finds use for women in various public roles - as seducer/spies/entertainers, and is sufficiently politically and militarily secure to allow women to do such things freely. The stricter penalties on "downward trangressions along varna" implies greater opportunities for women to interact with various social strata and subgroups or meet men from different social backgrounds or origins. This smells strongly of an expanding, militarily secure imperial framework, which employs womens sexuality as a tool in the public sphere. Manu probably bears the stamp of an individual who was scarred by some personal negative experiences at the hands of such women - and is distinct in this from all other dharmasutras.

Apastambha, on the other hand treats the woman primarily as a "griha-lakshmi" - with primary role in carrying on reproduction and the joint dharmik role of the couple. This speaks of smaller kingdoms with less public role for women, and perhaps also an insecure public life for women. This could therefore be way before Manu, or way after Manu.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

Brihaspati Ji sorry to butt in but do you have any Idea as to how old the Vedas go.I am asking this because somebody mentioned that there is a reference to a particular constellation of stars which shows that it is quiet earlier than we thought.This Idea popped up after reading your post in geopolitical..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

I have my own speculations. But this is a hotly disputed area. But even die-hard AMT/AIT-ists now apparently concede that the "earlier" phases include compositions in the latter phase of late "Harappan".

My theory goes that earliest components go earlier than the proto-urban stage. Rig Veda could be again layers of remembered material from much earlier than the high-rainfall phase post younger Dryas - since descriptions of Indra's feats on the possible referecnes to ice-dams or glacial dams that held up the northern rivers , indicate periods as earlya s the height of the glacial period or melting phase. This can be anywhere between 18,000 BCE to 11,000 BCE.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

^
Thank's Brihaspati Ji my friend also told me some outrageous number which I refrained(since you rightly mentioned that it is a hotly contested) from posting but it goes even further than you say.I will check up on what you have written and ask him for some details.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bji will send you a copy of "Mathematics in India" by Kim Plofker. It tries to reconcile many of the AIT/OIT and goes on to give an account of Mathematics in India.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ramana wrote:Bji will send you a copy of "Mathematics in India" by Kim Plofker. It tries to reconcile many of the AIT/OIT and goes on to give an account of Mathematics in India.
Most grateful! Ramana ji!

By the way discussion on Apastamba may involve stuff not necessarily "family-firendly". But it is a most curious text indeed. I would like to have your views on what might have made it a core text in Andhra in the first place. It fits in with my own understanding of the origins of the "Vedic" thought [time-space I mean], but would like to have your bhumiputra view.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Manishw wrote:^
Thank's Brihaspati Ji my friend also told me some outrageous number which I refrained(since you rightly mentioned that it is a hotly contested) from posting but it goes even further than you say.I will check up on what you have written and ask him for some details.
36 KYBP? or even 63 and 72 KYBP? There are theories that language itself could have evolved 35-50 KYBP. Positional observation of astronomical repititive or spectacular phenomenon need not be impossible. What I am saying is that we cannot dismiss the possibility while at the same time we should not accept them either as fact unless we have sufficiently strong "evidence". Science is not a matter of faith, that once something has not been sufficiently supported by yet available evidence - it has to be rejected forever. This is what happens with most "scientists" though - but it is just another manifestation of religious mindset.

Observations beyond 50-60 KYBP might have been retained and encoded in the Veda. This does not rule out the observation in the first place, nor does it necessarily have to indicate that the writing or incorporation in the Vedas took place at the time of observation and not later.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

Brihaspati Ji : 58 thousand yrs from here he says, plan to get his source tomorrow itself or latest by day after tomorrow.will let you know.

Found something today just thought of posting as to varieties of opinions:

The Vedas

and link http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... RbqEs4NgLw
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Mauli »

DATING THE RG-VEDA

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ait/ch21.htm

Astronomical data and the Aryan question

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ait/ch22.htm

THE PRECESSION OF THE EQUINOX

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ait/ch23.htm

ADDITIONAL ASTRONOMICAL INDICATIONS

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ait/ch24.htm
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

Thanks Mauli Ji, Brihaspati Ji- My friend handed me a cassette of 'Rajneesh' where he is commenting that it was 60,000 years ago.It was just a wild goose chase since Rajneesh though enlightened(IMO) was prone to huge exaggerations.

BUT this sent me on the hunt and I found a treasure trove. Your theory which to me proves beyond doubt that the Vedas were 18000 BCE to 11000 BCE old.Apart from Indra (solar god) V/s demon Vritra (the Coverer) there are huge many no. of things that confirm this.This should be an open and shut case and we should have been debating whether the Vedas are 50,000 yrs old or not, which to my mind is perfectly logical and this whole business of mankind appearing on Africa is just 'spins'(IMO).

The 'Rigveda' and the whole body of writings following it have nothing to say of 'Aryan's or 'Aryanism' except being mentioned in the context of 'honorable conduct' derived from ancient sanskrit Amarakosha'.These AIT's etc just exist to extinguish the 'Indic thought' because if India were to arm itself militarily and economically the sun will never set on the Indic thought empire and all existing belief systems would shatter.People would see their history and themselves in a completely different light.

Sad to see what has happened/happening to our Indic system.It is a loss for all mankind.
JMT
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Manishw, Can you explain your logic clearly so all can understand the datinng of the Rig Veda?

Thanks,ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

^ Yes Ramana Ji, Just give me a couple of day's so I can finish collecting some data.Thanks for giving me an opportunity.
@ Brihaspati Ji would appreciate some pointers as regards m17, origin of man in Africa (not), opposing points of views or anything else you care to share since I want to have an article which is easily understood by anybody who goes through and for reference in future. Would also appreciate your weighing in after I post since it should be complete in all respects(as far as we can manage).

Added later : Got the link, thanks Ramanna Ji

Thank's Brihaspati Ji got it
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Manishw, Here is link to India Forum thread on DNA evidence on AIT....

What DNA says about AIT-2
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by krisna »

Role of women--
We had visited the pomona temple in NY sometime ago. we listened to one of the priests there explaining about Srinivasa kalyanam.
during this talk he talked the status of women in olden days which surprised me immensely. I was not aware of them.

1) In olden days childless couples preferred to adopt girl child only.
2) During marriage the boys' family used to visit the girls' family.
3) the girl and her family will decide whether she will marry the boy.
4) during the marriage the boys side will have to show that they and the boy will be able to look after the girl/wife throughout her life... they have look after the girls side in the marriage ceremony also including the cost etc.
5) parents who have daughters are more blessed than parents having boys.

he gave lot of examples of swayamvar of Sita/Draupadi/Srinivas etc and many others.

he also told many more which I cannot recollect as of now.

gurus can shed some light on these aspects.

Today the role of women is totally opposite of what happenned in the past.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

krisna wrote:Role of women--
We had visited the pomona temple in NY sometime ago. we listened to one of the priests there explaining about Srinivasa kalyanam.
during this talk he talked the status of women in olden days which surprised me immensely. I was not aware of them.

1) In olden days childless couples preferred to adopt girl child only.
2) During marriage the boys' family used to visit the girls' family.
3) the girl and her family will decide whether she will marry the boy.
4) during the marriage the boys side will have to show that they and the boy will be able to look after the girl/wife throughout her life... they have look after the girls side in the marriage ceremony also including the cost etc.
5) parents who have daughters are more blessed than parents having boys.

he gave lot of examples of swayamvar of Sita/Draupadi/Srinivas etc and many others.

he also told many more which I cannot recollect as of now.

gurus can shed some light on these aspects.

Today the role of women is totally opposite of what happenned in the past.
Most of the basic Puranas should provide a different picture to the medieval. MB also contains many stories as illustrations of points being made by a character - such as by Vishma on arrowbed.

Most of the points being made by the priest is true. Only problem is that they need not always have been practised at the same time. A comparative study of the following dharmasutras - Apastamba, Baudhayana, Gautama, Vasishta, Parasara - and of course Manu will make the picture clear. Only Manu has been widely publicized - because the priests who were first employed by the Brits or Europeans, favoured or put forward perhaps only the Manu [or they deliberately chose this one over and above the other dharmasutras as Manu suited their imperialist agenda - the reason I believe this is true because Vidyasagara successfully argued to have widow remarriage (for Hindus) legalized by the Brits using the non-Manu dharmasutras, so the Brits must have been forced to be aware of the other texts].

Apastamba is the most "liberal" among those mentioned above. He clearly allows right of choice of husband. In fact even extramarital affairs by the "wife" is allowed too in the sense that capital or other severe penalties are not awarded, and the penalties are equal for both husband and wife for deviations. He allows remarriage [punarbhu] on several different contexts, not just for widows : but abandonment, lack of "visit" for one year or more, etc - all could be valid grounds. But he is not unique, others in the list I mentioned also share in similar views.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by krisna »

^^^^
Thanks Bji.
I will read them.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

and do read my old favourite, the arthashastra ! the civil code deals with these things in considerable detail, it was probably the base on which the subsequent law books were built.

the concept of divorce, ownership of ancestral share of property by women etc are some of the important aspects.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Manishw ji,
I find no difficulty in considering possibilities that information or observations dating back to 60,000 years were retained by a group of humans as part of their foundational or civilizational focal points. An obvious point of friction here would be the necessity of a societal memory mechanism with sufficient sophistication to describe for future generations such events or observations accurately.

This means the assumption of the existence of a sufficiently "rich" language. Very few linguists consider such early dates for origin of sophisticated languages but they are not an empty set!

One thing to note is that, the older events are described more sparsely with lesser details - which I think clearly fits with the model that early language was less "rich" than later ones. Therefore, earliest events would have been less well described [limited vocabulary]. This also makes it problematic to interpret the real event.

I will try to give you the refs that I have on M17.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

krisna, The rite of kanyadaan was a supreme right. And could have been a factor in all those examples (1 and 5) given by the priest.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

One of the distinctions of the Vedic from other faith systems as regards social customs - is that the Vedic/Upanishads clearly recognize social customs to be arrived at by humans and are not "revealed" or "god-given".

Think of the very start of the institution of marriage itself. My favourite story is that of Swetaketu, son of Uddalaka. He is credited with instituting "marriage". The reason given is that as a child, Swetaketu saw one day that another "brahmin" man came and asked his mother out - and she went "out" with him. Troubled Swetaketu, asked his father as to why his mother went away with another man. Uddalaka explained that women, among other entities - were free to go where they wanted to, and they could not be confined to "personal possession".

Swetaketu did not like this answer, and when he grew up to establish his own "school" - he instituted "marriage". The story completely fits with modern assessments of the reactions on children of lack of commitment in marriage by either parent.

Here, no recourse is taken to a supreme, non-human or supra-human authority. But the most important theme of "family" as the reason behind the commitment as the reason behind "marriage" is clearly established.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by putnanja »

brihaspati wrote: Think of the very start of the institution of marriage itself. My favourite story is that of Swetaketu, son of Uddalaka. He is credited with instituting "marriage". The reason given is that as a child, Swetaketu saw one day that another "brahmin" man came and asked his mother out - and she went "out" with him. Troubled Swetaketu, asked his father as to why his mother went away with another man. Uddalaka explained that women, among other entities - were free to go where they wanted to, and they could not be confined to "personal possession".

Swetaketu did not like this answer, and when he grew up to establish his own "school" - he instituted "marriage". The story completely fits with modern assessments of the reactions on children of lack of commitment in marriage by either parent.
The initial chapters of Mahabharatha contains a treasure trove of information like the one above. I would recommend people to read about them. I believe Ganguly's Mahabharatha is available online, which too contains all these informations.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManjaM »

its available for 2.99$ on amazon for kindle. download "kindle for pc" for free. darn good price for 2000 pages of awesomeness.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

You can still download it on sacred-texts.com, as a single text file or html in many chapters.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Manishw »

link: http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... DoIfiX5jwQ


First a brief background
Aryan invasion theory(AIT) is a particular obsession in the West particularly for German nationalists under Hitler.The AIT theory says that Significant Indians (Aryans) originated from Eurasia and immigrated(invaded) to the Indian landmass around 1500 B.C at the great detriment to the original inhabitants already present.This is the soul of the theory of course various twists have been added as the situation demanded.People who question that the west and others are supporting demographic changes in India which can be a tool for breaking India again in the distant future should particularly go through this.The AIT's have little except propaganda and the backing of the west and others in multiple ways.They offer little by way of facts so it might be difficult to refute 'fantastical stories'.This has nothing to do with Vedic or ancient Indian's. Vedas or in particular talking only of Rigveda' which is a set of ten books and more than 1000 hymes the word Arya appears less than 40 times.The 'Rigveda' and the whole body of writings following it have nothing to say of 'Aryan's or 'Aryanism' except being mentioned in the context of 'honorable conduct' derived from ancient Sanskrit 'Amarakosha' which is 'honorable conduct'. 'Rigveda' is being mentioned here since the AIT's quote this heavily to provide material for their theory.

Having said this lets move on

The main point of the present article is the following:The origin of Indian civilization are to be found not in the Eurasian steppes/landlocked areas 3-4000 years ago but in the coastal centers that dotted the coasts more than 10,000 years ago. Indian literature leaves little doubt that its poets looked to the ocean images as their original home, and not to Eurasian landlocked landmass. Upon examining the 'Rigveda', one can find it is steeped in oceanic images. It is not the poetry of a people from the land-locked Eurasia, but of a people intimately familiar with the sea and were seagoing. The Vedic civilization was one of the several that evolved in the region.It interacted with other cultures. All were affected when changes took place that accompanied the ending of the ice age and its brief return (known as the Younger Dryas), followed by its final retreat.

A few examples, including the famous creation hymn from the 'Rigveda', should suffice to show that the Vedic poets saw the world, even the creation itself, in oceanic terms.
From the link above:Quote (Translations by David Frawley.)

In the beginning, there was darkness hidden in darkness, all this universe was an unillumined sea.

Rigveda X.129.3

" The Gods stood together in the sea.Then as dancers they generated a swirl of dust. When, like ascetics, the Gods overflowed the world, then from hidden in the ocean they brought forth the Sun".

Rigveda X.72.6-7

"The creative Sun upheld the Earth with lines of force. He strengthened the Heaven where there was no support. As a powerful horse he drew out the atmosphere. He bound fast the ocean in the boundless realm. Thence came the world and the upper region,thence heaven and Earth were extended".

Rigveda X.149. 1-2

"Law and truth from the power of meditation were enkindled. Thence the night was born and then the flooding ocean.From the flooding ocean the year was born. The Lord of all that moves ordained the days and nights.The Creator formed the Sun and Moon according to previous worlds; Heaven and Earth, the atmosphere and the realm of light".

Rigveda X.190
unquote

These are not isolated passages, but selections from hundred/s of references found in the Rigveda.


-----To be continued------
Last edited by Manishw on 20 Aug 2010 14:37, edited 7 times in total.
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