Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Dileep]

Your lies apart, you are now making statements which I did not make. I did NOT say that EVERYONE in BEL is corrupt. I only said that 5-8 people in BEL are corrupt and that does include top 2-4 guys. And thats all I need to add rigged code in chip.

You are yet to show that. You say that is all you need, but refuse to show how. When we ask you, you demand the exact procedure followed by BEL

You yourself don't know what they do, but you sure know it takes only 5-8 people. How did you arrive at that number?

And you and Dileep are the one who are claiming that made in Japan chip should be assumed as unrigged, even though you dont have faintest clue who owns that chip company.

Drop that strawman will you? It doesn't matter who owns the fab, and it doesn't matter where the fab runs. It is impossible to do what you claim.

You dont even know whether CIA owns it. You dont even know if Sonia owns it. And yet you go around claiming that the chip is 100% unrigged and even throw bile on people who suspect imported chip and also insult people just because they suspect chip. Please stop this chip bhakti. It is crossing all limits of sanity.

You have absolutely no clue how a silicon chip is manufactured, still you are so sure that it can be rigged. When people who actually have knowledge (I have worked on products that use custom fabricated ICs, and used to be a consultant in that area once) claim technical features, you call that insane.

That is excellent logic.

The chip has to be assumed as rigged within all technological possibilities that exist in world. And if the code came with chip, so is code. Unless you can prove that chip in EVERY 700,000 EVM is unrigged and code in every 700,000 chips is unrigged, your case is lame. You might be able to sell your chip bhakti to experts with 4 digit IQ. But we commons have IQ between 95 and 110 (mine is 107). And none of us will agree with chip bhakti.

If you can, technically refute the points I raised. You lost all arguments, and now bringing things like IQ here, which is irrelevant.

We started with debate on whether "we commons will agree with EVMs" or not. As if chip bhakti is all you are left with, I dont think even 2% of us commons will agree with EVMs. You may be able to continue with EVMs by diverting commons' attention on useless topics (homosex, communalism, secularism etc) but not otherwise.

Your primary argument, the faking of hash is blown into pieces. You don't have anymore arguments left, so you are using terms like chip bhakthi.

I make my living from technical knowledge. Livelyhood is god, so, yes, I have bhakthi to the technology from which I make a living.

Do you have an iota of technical proof to refute anything that I presented? Have you presented anything here? No.

Bring that! Post your technical refute. I have provided enough technical information in the open forum. If you can't do it yourself, bring someone who can.

Calling names, and hiding behind vague statements won't help.

Your 15 minutes are up. Own up, or shut up!!

[Tanaji]

Also, now the claim that chip and PCB does not have RF has capability is should be doubted. Because Indirsen committee says that they had seen demo and manufacture's presentations ONLY. They did NOT rip apart even 10 EVMs and verified if there was and was not any RF reciever. Some 2mm of RF probe will be sifficient to receive 10 bytes from a van sized equipment 100m away. So unless proven otherwise, we should assume that EVM can get data using radio wave

Its curious as to why you dont apply the same logic to the calculators and computers that the EC uses to publish the results. Why dont you insist on checking the firmware of every CASIO calculator that the EC uses? Surely they could have rigged the calculators themselves?

It is the same logic.

[Rahul Mehta]

1. I don't know which chip the EVM uses, hence I can't answer how exactly.

2. If you use the ATMEL chip I mentioned earlier, the exact access method is given in the data sheet.

1. Amen. So IYO, there may not be a way to check that sw in chip is same as what BEL is claiming to be be.

2. OK. For the chip you mentioned, how do I get hash code AFTER code is burned in the ROM, not while it is being burnt (or downloaded). The code you gave in last page and the section 9.3 of the databook you showed shows how I get checksum while I am burning ROM. I want to know how you will get MD5 hash six months AFTER code has been burned.

[Rahul Mehta]

All these could be answered by going to the meet. Why don't you do it?

Because CEC is a corrupt fellow. And so it is guaranteed that he will pick only those experts who have corrupt to core. Instead of wasting Rs 20000 in going to Delhi and spending several hours, I am better of printing and distributing 20000 pamphlets. If ECI wanted to give answers, they would have given it long back. It is better to expose corrupt people in public and expose their corrupt deeds (like EVMs) in public. If ECI wanted to know whether we commons like EVM or not, he would requested PM to order Talati to register our YES/NO. But the corrupt EC insists that us commons' opinions MUST mot be registered. So no point talking to such corrupt and defunct people.

(Aside : there was a recent Lathha kand in Gujarat where in 150 died to toxic liquor. I gave attended many meets where I has to give small speech. I demanded PUBLIC truth serum tests on DIG, Police Commissioner, DySP, local SP, Home Minister and CM to know whether they take bribes. I distributed pamphlets for the same. But I did not attend the "peace" meeting that DySP had organized. It would have been utter waste of time)

[Rahul Mehta]

You have absolutely no clue how a silicon chip is manufactured, still you are so sure that it can be rigged. When people who actually have knowledge (I have worked on products that use custom fabricated ICs, and used to be a consultant in that area once) claim technical features, you call that insane.

That is excellent logic.

Yes. I claim that CIA is capable of making a chip that has same functionality as real chip, plus added functions to support rigging. And it is capable of convincing the owners of Japanese company to send the rigged chip instead of real.

Now you better show TESTS to distinguish between real chip and rigged chip. Otherwise, how would YOU verify that chip is not real one, if you were on committee?

Your primary argument, the faking of hash is blown into pieces. You don't have anymore arguments left, so you are using terms like chip bhakthi.

I did not say faking at the time of burning the ROM. I said that has can be faked AFTER burning the ROM. And I will prove that AFTER you show me how hash is read after burning the ROM. And first of all, the chip you mentioned, does it even support MD5 hash? And does it allow a person to read MD5 hash 6 months after ROM has been loaded? HOW?

[Dileep]

1. Amen. So IYO, there may not be a way to check that sw in chip is same as what BEL is claiming to be be.
I haven't yet seen an OTP chip that prevents code verification (and I have seen very many)

2. OK. For the chip you mentioned, how do I get hash code AFTER code is burned in the ROM, not while it is being burnt (or downloaded). The code you gave in last page and the section 9.3 of the databook you showed shows how I get checksum while I am burning ROM. I want to know how you will get MD5 hash six months AFTER code has been burned.

I am not going to discuss anything on the ATMEL chip, unless you agree to take that as a reference platform.

[Dileep]

All these could be answered by going to the meet. Why don't you do it?

Because CEC is a corrupt fellow. And so it is guaranteed that he will pick only those experts who have corrupt to core. Instead of wasting Rs 20000 in going to Delhi and spending several hours, I am better of printing and distributing 20000 pamphlets. If ECI wanted to give answers, they would have given it long back. It is better to expose corrupt people in public and expose their corrupt deeds (like EVMs) in public. If ECI wanted to know whether we commons like EVM or not, he would requested PM to order Talati to register our YES/NO. But the corrupt EC insists that us commons' opinions MUST mot be registered. So no point talking to such corrupt and defunct people.

(Aside : there was a recent Lathha kand in Gujarat where in 150 died to toxic liquor. I gave attended many meets where I has to give small speech. I demanded PUBLIC truth serum tests on DIG, Police Commissioner, DySP, local SP, Home Minister and CM to know whether they take bribes. I distributed pamphlets for the same. But I did not attend the "peace" meeting that DySP had organized. It would have been utter waste of time)

I am not interested in what you think about anything or anybody, and I don't give two hoots on what you do other than the unviable out of the world scenarios you give here.

You have some questions, and there is a clear way to get them answered. Instead of using that opportunity to get your answers, you are weaseling out.

This means only one thing. You are not interested in the answers. You just want the sensation.

Go to the meet if you want answers. If the answers are corrupt, you get more points to support you!!

[Dileep]

Yes. I claim that CIA is capable of making a chip that has same functionality as real chip, plus added functions to support rigging. And it is capable of convincing the owners of Japanese company to send the rigged chip instead of real.

Well, take that claim and SHOVE it, for all I care, because that claim is thoroughly torn apart already. Think that is ridiculous. See if there are any takers.

Now you better show TESTS to distinguish between real chip and rigged chip. Otherwise, how would YOU verify that chip is not real one, if you were on committee?

These are already discussed to the maximum extent. Repeating the questions doesn't help.

I did not say faking at the time of burning the ROM. I said that has can be faked AFTER burning the ROM.

Please explain what exactly you mean?

And I will prove that AFTER you show me how hash is read after burning the ROM. And first of all, the chip you mentioned, does it even support MD5 hash? And does it allow a person to read MD5 hash 6 months after ROM has been loaded? HOW?

I am not going to discuss the ATMEL chip, unless you agree to use it as a reference.

[Sachin]

This means only one thing. You are not interested in the answers. You just want the sensation.
Go to the meet if you want answers. If the answers are corrupt, you get more points to support you!!

As a neutral observer who has been watching this thread, I would request Shri. Rahul Mehta to take the pains to meet the Election Commission, the Technical experts and make an attempt to prove the claims that EVMs can be used for election malpractice. Or else Shri. Mehta-ji would be really cutting a sorry figure here.

[Raja Bose]

Or else Shri. Mehta-ji would be really cutting a sorry figure here.

What do you mean "would"? He is already cutting a sorry figure here .

If you see where his "EVM tampering" scheme started with the claim of few 10-12 top people and minimal labour onlee to now requiring entire units subverted, billion dollar fabs made and what-not....it is just mind boggling what ridiculous levels one can stoop to, for cheap publicity and taking the so-called commons for a ride.

[Raja Bose]

The chip has to be assumed as rigged within all technological possibilities that exist in world.

You may be able to continue with EVMs by diverting commons' attention on useless topics (homosex, communalism, secularism etc) but not otherwise.

OK, now I frankly think you have lost the plot completely. I haven't seen such incoherent blabbering on BR for a long time (except some newbies who get caught in bredator djinns hellphyrr sights and don't know what hit them).

Because CEC is a corrupt fellow. And so it is guaranteed that he will pick only those experts who have corrupt to core. Instead of wasting Rs 20000 in going to Delhi and spending several hours, I am better of printing and distributing 20000 pamphlets.

RM ji, first I was thinking that you simply did not have the technical expertise. But now it is confirmed that you do not have any guts either. Ofcourse for you it is better printing and distributing 20000 pamphlets - after all it is easy, no accountability required and without providing an iota of proof you get some free and cheap publicity (@50p per pamphlet) for your party.

If ECI wanted to give answers, they would have given it long back. It is better to expose corrupt people in public and expose their corrupt deeds (like EVMs) in public.

If you have any sense of civic duty or responsibility, you will go to the EC meeting and ask them the questions about the EVM, that you are asking here. Despite all the histrionics you are throwing about the "corrupt" experts, the meeting is a public one and open to ALL. If you ask the right questions, you will get your answers. And if they are really corrupt, you will expose them. But then I get the sneaky feeling that you are scared $hitless that if you spout your vague theories in public amongst qualified people (that includes the audience) you might receive answers you don't like and you might get shown up as someone who is only interested in shrill publicity-seeking tamasha and has neither the inclination nor the qualification to actually make any meaningful contribution to the EVM debate.

It takes guts to present and publicly defend one's position amongst a crowd of knowledgeable people - even young MS/PhD students do that in top conferences worldwide but I guess when all one has to offer is Hot Air, the shoot-and-scoot sniping technique is more suitable as amply demonstrated by you.

If ECI wanted to know whether we commons like EVM or not, he would requested PM to order Talati to register our YES/NO. But the corrupt EC insists that us commons' opinions MUST mot be registered. So no point talking to such corrupt and defunct people.

Aah....once again the sign of the militant activist (such as the ranks of Arundhati Roy). When cornered they behave like a petulant child whose every whim must be satisfied for the "good of the country". These activists act as if India is their baap ka jaagir and they somehow have the sole right to dictate what should be done. Ofcourse all this is done in the name of "helping the commons" and the claim that the activist himself is a "common" - much like the fat cats of Soviet Union, China and other People's Republics who claim they are the people's servants yet in reality are more elite than the elitist people they claim to despise.

[suryag]

RM ji in the next two or three pages might even suggest usage of captured martians in area 51 by CIA to do this

[Dileep]

BTW, which "commoner" needs 20,000 rupees for a trip to nai dilli? The train fare on sleeper class from Ahmedabad to Delhi is only Rs 343. I could do the trip within Rs 2,000 for sure. I really do.

[Dileep]

I said that if CIA or anyone wants to make chip-making units which can churn out altered chips with same part number, mask id or unique chip numbers etc, they can. CIA is not going to respect "market norms" and "industry norms".

Yes. I claim that CIA is capable of making a chip that has same functionality as real chip, plus added functions to support rigging. And it is capable of convincing the owners of Japanese company to send the rigged chip instead of real.

Above are verbatim copies from RM's posts.

I am moving this claim into the class of "disputed territory", because it is obviously bullshit, and Rahul is never going to admit it. Nobody else on this forum supports that, and I don't think any other sane person would.

The issue of "rigging the chip" will be permanently associated with the above quote, to prevent the master spinner from spinning it anymore.

[Rahul Mehta]

I am not going to discuss anything on the ATMEL chip, unless you agree to take that as a reference platform.

The ONLY reference platform is the EVM chip.

But since you dont tell us anything about THAT chip, I am asking question about other chip you mentioned.

In the manual of that chip I did not see any mention of MD5 hash of ROM contents. The manual says something about reading checksum, but that is while ROM contents are being downloaded into ROM, not afterwards.

Now say all the ROM contents has been downloaded in EVM and six months have passed. Say I open one EVM and want MD5 hash of the ROM contents of its ROM contents. How I get it now? Or is there no way to get MD5 hash?

If MD5 hash cant be read, then what summary can be read? Ordinary checksum only? (Ordinary checksum = Byte0 + Byte1 + Byte2 + Byte(N-1) with overflows ignored at each step). Or some other type of checksum?

.

[Rahul Mehta]

This means only one thing. You are not interested in the answers. You just want the sensation.
Go to the meet if you want answers. If the answers are corrupt, you get more points to support you!!

As a neutral observer who has been watching this thread, I would request Shri. Rahul Mehta to take the pains to meet the Election Commission, the Technical experts and make an attempt to prove the claims that EVMs can be used for election malpractice. Or else Shri. Mehta-ji would be really cutting a sorry figure here.

I am willing to meet Gujarat Chief Election Officer or any person he deputes. Any day he says. I send them a mail and post contents soon.

Going to Delhi is Rs 20000 of cost and several at least 10-20 continuous hours. I am better finishing my Gujarati translation.

----

You have some questions, and there is a clear way to get them answered. Instead of using that opportunity to get your answers, you are weaseling out.

This means only one thing. You are not interested in the answers. You just want the sensation.

Go to the meet if you want answers. If the answers are corrupt, you get more points to support you!!

CEC is not interested in any questions and any answers. I would rather spend my time with smallies who care then biggies who are just corrupt.

And if you want answers, why do YOU get us tech details about chip? Why dont YOU get ownership details of chip making company? Why dont you get us MD5 hash of true binary from BEL and get MD5 hash from EVM and post the comparison? My reason for not going to ECI is cogent : CEC has proved himself to be corrupt beyond any doubt. Now what sort of people would work with him? Only the people who have zero self esteem and dont have any sense of ethics. What sort of experts would work for EC whose CEC openly rigs MH RS elections? The expert may claim to be "technical only expert" but even technical people know enough politics to understand that CEC is corrupt.

[Dileep]

The ONLY reference platform is the EVM chip.

But since you dont tell us anything about THAT chip, I am asking question about other chip you mentioned.

You need to accept that chip as a reference first. OTherwise, you will have to take that EC meeting for answers on the real EVM.

In the manual of that chip I did not see any mention of MD5 hash of ROM contents. The manual says something about reading checksum, but that is while ROM contents are being downloaded into ROM, not afterwards.

Now say all the ROM contents has been downloaded in EVM and six months have passed. Say I open one EVM and want MD5 hash of the ROM contents of its ROM contents. How I get it now? Or is there no way to get MD5 hash?

If MD5 hash cant be read, then what summary can be read? Ordinary checksum only? (Ordinary checksum = Byte0 + Byte1 + Byte2 + Byte(N-1) with overflows ignored at each step). Or some other type of checksum?
.

Accept the ATMEL chip as a valid reference, then I will answer all those. In fact, I will admit riggability of that chip as a generic riggability of any microcontroller system. But you need to first agree to use that platform as a reference.

Game?

[Dileep]

I am willing to meet Gujarat Chief Election Officer or any person he deputes. Any day he says. I send them a mail and post contents soon.

You may be willing to meet the Alien overlord, or Deepika Padukone at a nude beach. It doesn't matter.

The CEC has offered an opportunity for you to present your case IN PUBLIC, and get your questions answered IN PUBLIC.

You are scared shit of that, and trying to weasel out. You can deal with weirdos who will just listen to you.

Going to Delhi is Rs 20000 of cost and several at least 10-20 continuous hours. I am better finishing my Gujarati translation.

A "Commoner" needs only Rs 2000 to do the trip, and you can get all the answers you want.

You are WEASELING OUT.

CEC is not interested in any questions and any answers. I would rather spend my time with smallies who care then biggies who are just corrupt.

That is what YOU say. Go there and PROVE IT!! All the questions and answers will be PUBLIC. We will see.

And if you want answers, why do YOU get us tech details about chip? Why dont YOU get ownership details of chip making company? Why dont you get us MD5 hash of true binary from BEL and get MD5 hash from EVM and post the comparison? My reason for not going to ECI is cogent : CEC has proved himself to be corrupt beyond any doubt. Now what sort of people would work with him? Only the people who have zero self esteem and dont have any sense of ethics. What sort of experts would work for EC whose CEC openly rigs MH RS elections? The expert may claim to be "technical only expert" but even technical people know enough politics to understand that CEC is corrupt.

Why should I get information for YOU? You are a NOBODY for me. I don't owe you answers. I only need to backup my claims, which I invariably did. You are the one who doesn't.

What I am doing here is tearing into pieces your out of the world theories, nothing else. You want answers, go ask the EC. They OWE you an answer, and they have expressed willingness to do that.

It is YOU who chicken out!!

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: In the manual of that chip I did not see any mention of MD5 hash of ROM contents. The manual says something about reading checksum, but that is while ROM contents are being downloaded into ROM, not afterwards. Now say all the ROM contents has been downloaded in EVM and six months have passed. Say I open one EVM and want MD5 hash of the ROM contents of its ROM contents. How I get MD5 hash now? Or is there no way to get MD5 hash? If MD5 hash cant be read, then what summary can be read? Ordinary checksum only? (Ordinary checksum = Byte0 + Byte1 + Byte2 + Byte(N-1) with overflows ignored at each step). Or some other type of checksum?

Dileep: Accept the ATMEL chip as a valid reference, then I will answer all those. In fact, I will admit riggability of that chip as a generic riggability of any microcontroller system. But you need to first agree to use that platform as a reference.

This is very weird condition for a tech debate. I simply wont accept AMTEL chip as THE platform, as we no one outside BEL knows which chip goes into EVM. I am only asking how MD5 hash can be read "in general" six months after code is copied in OTP-ROM. Why? So that I can show how a rigged chip can report a fake planted MD5 hash instead of real one. So I would take take ANY 8-bit chip as example.

As per chip rigging, I am more than convinced one can rig the chip by making a new fab intended to make a rigged chip. Even if that costs Rs 5000 cr, it is worth the price for US and UPA, as UPA could not have got 5 cr extra votes for twice the money. Beyond a point, money does not buy more voters, but rigged chips can.

---

Aside : If the chip is only giving one two byte simple checksum , here is how that is unreliable.

Say code is 30 bytes long and for sake of example it is 123456790123456790123456790.
Say CheckSum = (previous ChecSum + new byte) mod 10.

So final checksum is 5. Now I write new rigged code which is say 5 bytes smaller in size. The check sum is say not 5. Then one of the last trailing empty byes, I add one number so that checksum is 5 and put rest of the trailing bytes as 0. So now size is same and checksum is also same.

Now that is for simple checksum. Tempering other checksums will be more difficult.

[negi]

chip rigging CEC should add this to election malpractices list . .Cool word I can imagine Lalloo and mamta di crying in the middle of street 'chip rigging'

[Raja Bose]

I am willing to meet Gujarat Chief Election Officer or any person he deputes. Any day he says. I send them a mail and post contents soon.

Going to Delhi is Rs 20000 of cost and several at least 10-20 continuous hours. I am better finishing my Gujarati translation.

Was the Gujarat Chief Election Officer responsible for design and operational guidelines of the EVM? You seem to be willing to meet everybody under the sun except the people you need to meet. This only goes to prove that all this time you were simply posturing and blowing hot air, hoping that either people would get blown over by your mumbo-jumbo (unfortunately for you, B-R is not another one of those deaf&dumb fora inhabitated by juvenile 13 year old fanboys) or people would just give up and you could claim that you had "proved" EVMs are vulnerable! When the time has come to back up your accusations, you are backing out!

CEC is not interested in any questions and any answers. I would rather spend my time with smallies who care then biggies who are just corrupt.

Ofcourse you would prefer to deal with smallies - after all they are easier to intimidate and dazzle with your faux "expertise".

And if you want answers, why do YOU get us tech details about chip? Why dont YOU get ownership details of chip making company? Why dont you get us MD5 hash of true binary from BEL and get MD5 hash from EVM and post the comparison? My reason for not going to ECI is cogent : CEC has proved himself to be corrupt beyond any doubt. Now what sort of people would work with him? Only the people who have zero self esteem and dont have any sense of ethics. What sort of experts would work for EC whose CEC openly rigs MH RS elections? The expert may claim to be "technical only expert" but even technical people know enough politics to understand that CEC is corrupt.

For someone claiming to fight for justice, you seem to have a singularly ignorant view of process. In case you didn't know, in every civilized society it is incumbent upon the accuser (in this case, YOU) to furnish solid proof and facts to back up his allegations. Ever heard of the term "innocent until proven guilty"? Ofcourse what you are doing can be likened to accusing someone of murder, when you don't even know if a murder has been committed or not!

[Dileep]

This is very weird condition for a tech debate. I simply wont accept AMTEL chip as THE platform, as we no one outside BEL knows which chip goes into EVM. I am only asking how MD5 hash can be read "in general" six months after code is copied in OTP-ROM. Why? So that I can show how a rigged chip can report a fake planted MD5 hash instead of real one. So I would take take ANY 8-bit chip as example.

You can't take an example where it is convenient to you alone. The ATMEL chip can perfectly be used as the controller for an EVM. It can serve as a reference platform.

In other words, if you can show the ATMEL chip (which is a regular commercial chip, not MIL or security enhanced product) is riggable, then most of the arguments for the EVM is disproven.

If it is proven unriggable, then at least there is ONE platform that isn't riggable.

Either case, it is good for the discussion.

But, you are NOT for a reliable discussion. You are for propaganda, and self promotion.

As per chip rigging, I am more than convinced one can rig the chip by making a new fab intended to make a rigged chip. Even if that costs Rs 5000 cr, it is worth the price for US and UPA, as UPA could not have got 5 cr extra votes for twice the money. Beyond a point, money does not buy more voters, but rigged chips can.

You are convinced, but no one else is. I know people who are "convinced" that aliens live among us. At some point of time, my grandfather was "convinced" that people are waiting in the yard to kill him.

Take this argument to the public. Why don't you give an ad saying exactly what I quoted in the reference post above?

Aside : If the chip is only giving one two byte simple checksum , here is how that is unreliable.

Say code is 30 bytes long and for sake of example it is 123456790123456790123456790.
Say CheckSum = (previous ChecSum + new byte) mod 10.

So final checksum is 5. Now I write new rigged code which is say 5 bytes smaller in size. The check sum is say not 5. Then one of the last trailing empty byes, I add one number so that checksum is 5 and put rest of the trailing bytes as 0. So now size is same and checksum is also same.

Now that is for simple checksum. Tempering other checksums will be more difficult.

You claim that you can add functionality, and reduce code size. That is interesting.

[Vikas]

Can we call it Cheap rigging
Sorry ! could not avoid my cheap shot!

[Raja Bose]

This is very weird condition for a tech debate. I simply wont accept AMTEL chip as THE platform, as we no one outside BEL knows which chip goes into EVM. I am only asking how MD5 hash can be read "in general" six months after code is copied in OTP-ROM. Why? So that I can show how a rigged chip can report a fake planted MD5 hash instead of real one. So I would take take ANY 8-bit chip as example.

You can't take an example where it is convenient to you alone. The ATMEL chip can perfectly be used as the controller for an EVM. It can serve as a reference platform.

Well, even if you were to hand him the chip EVM actually uses....you can be guaranteed that RM will complain that it is all a farce and how is one sure that that particular model of chip is used and Chief Evil Commissioner Chawla and CIA will not secretly replace that chip with others "custom fabbed" ones just the night before elections - there are no technical barriers you see!

I think to make this debate more interesting lets start acting like RM and apply his Lahori logic to his camera+ballot stamping machine idea - that might probably give him a taste of what others have to endure when he spouts his crazy nonsense in the name of science and "civic" duty!

[Dileep]

I can't do that. I wowed to be honest.

Even otherwise, how can someone cook up such absurdities as he does, and deliver them with the online equivalent of a "straight face"?

If you can, or anyone else can, please do.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: I am only asking how MD5 hash can be read "in general" six months after code is copied in OTP-ROM. Why? So that I can show how a rigged chip can report a fake planted MD5 hash instead of real one. So I would take take ANY 8-bit chip as example.


Dileep: You can't take an example where it is convenient to you alone. The ATMEL chip can perfectly be used as the controller for an EVM. It can serve as a reference platform. In other words, if you can show the ATMEL chip (which is a regular commercial chip, not MIL or security enhanced product) is riggable, then most of the arguments for the EVM is disproven.

Errr .. I am not picking the AMTEL chip as example. You gave that chip as example and I am going along with it.

Now you claim that one can get MD5 hash of ROM contents even 6 months after burning and setting lockbits. So pls show me which pages of the manual describe that. Because I searched the word hash in the PDF you gave and could not find even one instance. You showed section 9.3, but that shows checksum verification during burn, not after burn and after setting lockbits. This means only QE/QI guy can see it, not the committee which examined the EVMs or not anyone who is examining it now.

----

Negi,
Some us claim that "chip was tempered". Now, we are NOT claiming that chip was tempered after manufacturing. But what we are saying is that the chip manufacturer gave a different chip altogether which had rigged code or some features that would support putting rigged code in an undetectable way.

[Rahul Mehta]

You claim that you can add functionality, and reduce code size. That is interesting.

That can be accomplished by asking the programmers to add a few test routines during development. And then I would ask them not to delete them even later on. These routines are never called in final run. So I can remove them recompile the code and have final code which has SAME functionality but smaller size. Now extra unused bytes can be used to get same checksum as original binary.

.

[suryag]

Dont we already know that it is an OTP(ONE TIME programmable) device, which means once the mask is generated and burnt in living thing, not even martians can change it

[Dileep]

Dont we already know that it is an OTP(ONE TIME programmable) device, which means once the mask is generated and burnt in living thing, not even martians can change it

Logic, time, laws of physics etc doesn't apply in RahulWorld. Didn't you know that?

[Dileep]

Errr .. I am not picking the AMTEL chip as example. You gave that chip as example and I am going along with it.

Do you accept it as a reference and if it is proven unriggable, agree that an EVM made with that would be unriggable?

Now you claim that one can get MD5 hash of ROM contents even 6 months after burning and setting lockbits. So pls show me which pages of the manual describe that. Because I searched the word hash in the PDF you gave and could not find even one instance. You showed section 9.3, but that shows checksum verification during burn, not after burn and after setting lockbits. This means only QE/QI guy can see it, not the committee which examined the EVMs or not anyone who is examining it now.

Of course it is possible to verify the code (not MD5, but another type of hash) after setting lockbits. It is there in the datasheet for anyone to read.

If you want ME to explain and debate it, you need to accept it as a valid example as specified above.

Some us claim that "chip was tempered". Now, we are NOT claiming that chip was tempered after manufacturing. But what we are saying is that the chip manufacturer gave a different chip altogether which had rigged code or some features that would support putting rigged code in an undetectable way.

It is not "some of us". It is You and You alone. Not even Pranav supported that notion. So loose that plural.

[Dileep]

That can be accomplished by asking the programmers to add a few test routines during development. And then I would ask them not to delete them even later on. These routines are never called in final run. So I can remove them recompile the code and have final code which has SAME functionality but smaller size. Now extra unused bytes can be used to get same checksum as original binary.

Be clear. If you assume that the generation of the binary is compromised, then there is no need to fake the checksum in the first place. The corrupt PL can just compile the rigged binary, and put it through the process can't he?

[Rahul Mehta]

Dont we already know that it is an OTP(ONE TIME programmable) device, which means once the mask is generated and burnt in living thing, not even martians can change it

And where did I say that ROM was changed after being put once?

I am only saying that a different code was put in the ROM.

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Dileep,

Where did Pranav, Ravi_ku etc say that one cant manufacture a different chip?

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Dileep, All,

This must be 5th time I am asking same questions. Can you show in the manual how hash can be read say 6 months after setting lockbits? Because the section 9.3 you mentioned does not explain that. So if we take say 1000 EVMs at random, which steps we have to follow to get the MD5 hash of the contents in ROM.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: That can be accomplished by asking the programmers to add a few test routines during development. And then I would ask them not to delete them even later on. These routines are never called in final run. So I can remove them recompile the code and have final code which has SAME functionality but smaller size. Now extra unused bytes can be used to get same checksum as original binary.

Dileep: Be clear. If you assume that the generation of the binary is compromised, then there is no need to fake the checksum in the first place. The corrupt PL can just compile the rigged binary, and put it through the process can't he?

The corrupt PL can change the source code to remove unused functions, add function to favor ((n + k) mod 5 + 1) and recompile the code. But he would prefer to ensure that size and checksum is same, so that if there is a way to extract checksum from 6 months old EVM, it would give same checksum as unrigged binary.

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Now if chip is giving MD5 hash of ROM content, then we need a new function in altered chip : give planted MD5 hash rather than real one. I want to show what needs to be done, and so I am asking you how normal chip would give MD5 hash. Or rather, does AMTEL chip you mentioned give MD5 hash after lockbit is set?

[Dileep]

I am only saying that a different code was put in the ROM.

Be PRECISE.

"You are saying FIVE DIFFERENT codes were put in the ROM, at the time of production at BEL, where the chips were rigged at the fab to fake the checksums"

Where did Pranav, Ravi_ku etc say that one cant manufacture a different chip?

I posted your EXACT WORDS and asked if anyone support it. No one posted. Let anyone support that claim, post here.

This must be 5th time I am asking same questions. Can you show in the manual how hash can be read say 6 months after setting lockbits? Because the section 9.3 you mentioned does not explain that. So if we take say 1000 EVMs at random, which steps we have to follow to get the MD5 hash of the contents in ROM.

You can keep incrementing the counter as you please. The information is there in the datasheet. If you have the basic knowledge of microcontrollers, and the english language, you can get it.

I am not going to spend my time, which is much valuable than yours (from my POV) on that debate, until you agree to take that platform as a reference.

[Dileep]

The corrupt PL can change the source code to remove unused functions, add function to favor ((n + k) mod 5 + 1) and recompile the code. But he would prefer to ensure that size and checksum is same, so that if there is a way to extract checksum from 6 months old EVM, it would give same checksum as unrigged binary.

The unused functions will not survive a code review, but of course in RahulWorld, everyone, including the code reviewer is corrupt.

Now if chip is giving MD5 hash of ROM content, then we need a new function in altered chip : give planted MD5 hash rather than real one. I want to show what needs to be done, and so I am asking you how normal chip would give MD5 hash. Or rather, does AMTEL chip you mentioned give MD5 hash after lockbit is set?

The ATMEL chip does not use simple checksums. The exact scheme is explained there in the datasheet. If you want, show me how that can be defeated, then I will defend that scheme.

You have claimed that you can drill holes on the actual EVM chip, then why can't you try drilling this chip?

[Dileep]

Rahul, you have two options here:

1. Go to the EC meet, and get the information from the BEL/ECIL engineers. They know the chip, and they can answer the questions.

2. Agree to take a reference system that is publicly known, and debate that.

The third option is to go to your "commoners" and stop posting here.

[Dileep]

And the humble "commoner" refuses to answer the little issue of Rs 20,000 for a Delhi trip. I would ride a Sleeper class train or a bus, use an auto for local transit, and stay at a non-star rated hotel. How much is that going to cost?

[Chinmayanand]

BJP to show EC how EVMs can be tampered

After former Delhi Chief Secretary Omash Saigal alleged that it was possible to tamper the EVMs, Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha LK Advani had demanded that ballot papers should be reintroduced in the electoral process.

[Dileep]

BJP to show EC how EVMs can be tampered

After former Delhi Chief Secretary Omash Saigal alleged that it was possible to tamper the EVMs, Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha LK Advani had demanded that ballot papers should be reintroduced in the electoral process.

When does Shri Rahul Mehta, Convener of “Right to Recall PM, CMs, judges and MRCM” Party present his allegations?

[Rahul Mehta]

When does Shri Rahul Mehta, Convener of “Right to Recall PM, CMs, judges and MRCM” Party present his allegations?

http://rahulmehta.htm/evm1.pdf

Btw, the ad I gave had word "Right to Recall Party (unregistered)". IE legal asked to remove the word Party as it has legal meaning particularly the ad is about EVM. Otherwise, I dont use the word "Group".

As per personally visiting there : there are many local resident-policemen meets all over India. Ahmedabad has one once a year in each police stations. There is also a Traffic Committee consisting of Traffic ACP and other "concerned citizens". I have attended to many of such meets and know that they are all farce and eye wash. And in case you guys think they are real, I request to attend them and speak PUBLICLY there on problem of corruption in police. And then you will realize how farce these meets are.

Talking to EC is waste of time. I am better off translating the pdf in Gujarati and distributing copies locally.

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BJP is NOT against EVM in reality. If it is, it can easily ask 65 of its members to become candidate and that would force ECI to use paper ballot. Ditto for AIDMK etc. They will soon give up their fight against EVMs.