Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 14 Jan 2010 05:15

Meanwhile NYtimes story:
3000+ Killed in Attacks in 2009

"More than civilian deaths in Afghans" ..

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Jan 2010 05:21

Gen Kapoor’s statement doesn’t reflect India’s national policy’
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_2

ISLAMABAD: Recent statements by the Indian Army chief do not reflect New Delhi’s national policy, US special envoy Richard Holbrooke said on Wednesday. “What [Indian Army chief] General Kapoor said does not reflect the Indian national policy,” said Holbrooke White Knight to Save H&D – suggesting that it was the Indian Army chief’s personal opinion. Talking to a group of editors and columnists, the US special representative said his country would not broker relations between Pakistan and India. “It is for Pakistan and India to engage in a process of dialogue, and we support it,” he said. He acknowledged that Pakistan’s security concerns were legitimate.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 14 Jan 2010 05:44

Satya_anveshi wrote:from wiki

Roughly 20,000 Pakistanis live and work in Denmark, making them the country's fifth-largest non-Western community. Six Pakistani immigrants/descendants of immigrants have seats on local parliaments and councils, the second-highest number of any immigrant group.[2]
This is another link showed up in google: ( Pakistan and Denmark lovefest)

This is interesting info:
Abolition of Visas between Pakistan and Denmark
It does not look like we have the same agreement. With who else does Pakistan have the similar thingy?

That's outdated...pakis need visas
http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_t ... s_visa.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 06:51

ravi_ku wrote: I do not share your optimism as it seems history is repeated in patterns and those who refuse to learn from it will get the beating they deserve.

In fact it is not some others who get the beating - it is Indians in India. I think these "phenomena" as in the phenomenon of calling for peace and the opposite phenomenon of baying for Pakistani blood are the internal debates of Indian society. There are always two or more sides to the debate and a number of people in between who choose a side depending on what they see is right for the moment.

Among the sides of this internal Indian debate are people with views such as you have expressed, and others who believe that it is plain wrong to gradually increase the amount of hatred for Pakistanis in society. It is likely that this latter group include the old Kuldip Nayar mindset of prepartition WKK, the newer wotzername Haider's mindset of ignorance of Pakistan, and a third group of people who are ideological peaceniks - the John Lennon peace for the sake of peace.

No matter how much that latter group are detested, anger and frustration expressed on here at them is like getting angry with a dogpile. It is immune to anger and it continues to stink up the place. Expressing a wish that such people should be placed at the India Pakistan border with the Indian army between them and India is like piercing a Voodoo doll with pins wishing harm on the people you hate. The point to remember is that these people are Indians with views about their lives in India. They may share your views about corruption and they may share your views about say reservation, but they do not share your views about Pakistan. And you cannot physically remove them because any attempt by you to harm them physically will bring upon you the anger of the middle ground people (who are undecided) who will instantly decide that the physical safety of Indians from other Indians is a greater priority than the physical safety of Indians from Pakis. For most Indians Pakistan is a sporadic, faraway threat. A set of people who dominate or physically intimidate others in India are a more immediate threat. So the Peaceniks and Jholawalas get to survive as happily in Indian society as those with your viewpoint and you cannot physically harm them no matter how much one may wish for it.

It is this group of people who were attacked on 26/11 so that event was a landmark event.

Nevertheless if you need to win over these people to your viewpoint it has to be done diplomatically and politically and that means keeping communication lines open with that group. Such communication lines are open in the media and Indian society but are closed on BRF. Naturally you cannot have any optimism because on BRF at least all communication lines are closed and dominated by holders of the viewpoint that is pessimistic about fellow Indians. Once you discard the opportunity to talk to Indians who have the same rights as you but not your viewpoint you are cutting off the branch that you sit on. But all others, including Pakis keep their communication lines open with all groups, while on BRF we can only sink into a cocoon of pessimism out of helplessness and frustration.

With zero interaction with that group they become "others" who are not you, and for whom you desire the fate expressed in your post above, which suggests "Those who disagree with my viewpoint will get a beating and they will deserve it"

those who refuse to learn from it will get the beating they deserve

Now that is a teeth gnashing statement of frustration because no such thing will happen.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 07:00

harbans wrote:
IF these guys are eliminated

harbansji - this is the problem word. "Elimination" of people who do not share your viewpoint. We have achieved that to a large degree on BRF but it is not going to happen in India.

I believe that we are reaching a stage on this forum where the forum is blind to what is happening in India and has cocooned itself in a cloak of delusion. Too much time is spent on wishing away people and problems with no inkling of the number of people and number of problems that make people think the way they do.

A section of the Indian elite is sitting right here imagining a future for an India they do not know. OT

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 07:25

Prem wrote:Gen Kapoor’s statement doesn’t reflect India’s national policy’
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_2

US special envoy Richard Holbrooke said on Wednesday. “What [Indian Army chief] General Kapoor said does not reflect the Indian national policy,”

How does he know unless he had talked to the GoI ?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 07:47

German Ambassador's understanding of Pakistan

The community had realised late that the real problem was Pakistan which was always in a position to say, ‘You help us; if not, we will blow ourselves up.’

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jan 2010 07:48

Shiv,

Possibly you didnt get the import of my statement. I am saying aman ki tamasha should be stopped NOW, not tomorrow when x terror comes and cham ki pasha II starts.

.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 07:54

ravi_ku wrote:Shiv,

Possibly you didnt get the import of my statement. I am saying aman ki tamasha should be stopped NOW, not tomorrow when x terror comes and cham ki pasha II starts.

.

But ravi India is a free enough country for people to start that sort of stuff, so "stopping it now" cannot be done. Stopping similar initiatives in the future can only occur by winning over people to the viewpoint that such initiatives are wrong/misguided.

There is a "Catch 22" here. Pakistan is not a free enough country for India to interfere with Pakistan's internal politics as easily as India's freedom allows Pakistan to play in India. Yawn can pay money to ToI to take out those moronic ads.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jan 2010 08:00

shiv wrote:But ravi India is a free enough country for people to start that sort of stuff, so "stopping it now" cannot be done. Stopping similar initiatives in the future can only occur by winning over people to the viewpoint that such initiatives are wrong/misguided.

There is a "Catch 22" here. Pakistan is not a free enough country for India to interfere with Pakistan's internal politics as easily as India's freedom allows Pakistan to play in India. Yawn can pay money to ToI to take out those moronic ads.

So all it will take to manufacture opinion in our country is to buy off a newspaper outlet and we can do NOTHING about it?

Today opinion = India- Pak equal-equal, tomorrow give away Kashmir, day after tomorrow .......?

What can you/one do to counter that shit?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 14 Jan 2010 08:24

on the aerial attack threat,

if they hijack, the prime targets would be nuclear installations, considering a 15 min reaction time for IAF to shoot down a hijacked civil airliner in a threatening trajectory, the hijackers would want to finish their job in under 15-20mins from initiation

so as a precautionary measure all flight routes have to be away from these installations by 15-20 mins, and thats not possible with places like BARC etc, so passengers should be restricted to their seats for 15 mins both during take off and landing phases?

SAM batteries if available around these installations should be protected from simultaneous fidayeen attack

of all the known targets, probably BARC has been recced in greater detail going by the Headley episode and on the recent explosion in BARC, there was a comment from a higher up that its defenses are being probed, sort of a dry run?

once hijacked saving the airliner's passengers is an open question

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 14 Jan 2010 08:40

SSridhar wrote:German Ambassador's understanding of Pakistan
The community had realised late that the real problem was Pakistan which was always in a position to say, ‘You help us; if not, we will blow ourselves up.’

A positive first step - identify the problem. But the next few sentences in that remark are disappointing..he seems to still suffer from delusions of reforming these animals. It is the next stage for the civilised world to come to conclusion that like the dogs reared by Vick for fighting, these animals need to be culled en masse. They are born to hate kufrs and to indulge in terrorism. They cannot be reformed.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2010 08:43

If this threat is credible, before this got leaked to the press, you can bet there are sky marshals on the flights.

The question is how many sky marshals can India put in the air. My guess is that they'll be on the major routes connecting the metros only, since these are high value targets. Although the frisking at Indian airports makes flight in India very safe.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 08:47

ravi_ku wrote: So all it will take to manufacture opinion in our country is to buy off a newspaper outlet and we can do NOTHING about it?

ravi

- I am sure you can pull yourself ahead of the curve you have fitted yourself into and guess why buying off a single outlet will not make a significant dent on India even if the outlet causes significant takleef on BRF.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Jan 2010 08:49

ravi_ku wrote:What can you/one do to counter that shit?

Keep bombarding that newspaper. At least, it allows a 'comments' section though, of late, I feel that it has started discarding many 'nay sayers' just to bring about a sense of equality and manufacture a favourable opinion. I don't lose heart or depair. I keep writing. So far 4 out of 6 have been published. And, the vote, that is more important, even if one does not write comments. Then, those of us who are fans of these movie stars who are egging on the tamasha of Aman, can write to them, boycott their movies etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 09:01

I believe that Pakistan's biggest public relations success in India is actually a gift from the time of the British and Jinnah - i.e the division of public opinion and politics in India into two groups in which one group (of Indians) believes that the other group is anti Muslim. Pakistan has been helped in moulding opinion against India and Hindus by events which have been publicised predominantly in a manner that highlights the idea that Indians are anti Muslim esp Ayodhya and Gujarat

India's biggest and most pathetic public relations failure has been its inability and unwillingness to point out an open anti Hindu bias in Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Sikh bias could have been used as well - but India's internal events (Op Blue Star) aided Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Shia and anti-Ahmedi bias are eminently usable traits that India has botched. Pakistan's anti Christian bias can also be used if Indians have the brains to handle the issue well, but when an 80% Hindu majority country is unable to pin Pakistan down on an open anti-Hindu bias and instead allow themselves to be painted as anti Muslim where does the fault lie?

Among Pakistan's major public relations failures in India is the failure to convince Indian Muslims that they must (and can) violently take over. Another major public relations failure has been Pakistan's terrorism - that has alienated a large number of Indians including Indian Muslims. This is an opportunity that can be botched by ill timed statements. I will not specify what I mean.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Jan 2010 09:05

Yes I make it a point to post my comments one every TOI article and when one posts with a calm and cool head they do get published , I usually keep changing my handle (even though the email id is the same). I would suggest for all of us like me who have a lot to

about , a lot of bile can be served to the TOI editorial board too so please flood those chaps with comments on daily basis.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 09:08

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 439117.cms

Reports from Jammu suggested that a senior Army officer in the unified headquarters meeting told the defence minister that “Pakistan is up to something big” and “we need to know what it is”

Whats going on!! Army officers NEVER relay personal opinion to politicians. This must be Army opinion. Intelligence must be picking lot of chatter.
We need to know and We need to know NOW.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 14 Jan 2010 09:20

Gagan wrote:Although the frisking at Indian airports makes flight in India very safe.

Not necessarily. I have actually tried some things, which a process let us say in the US will catch it, but the frisking in India did not. I will not elaborate here for obvious reasons.

The frisking is a great psychological booster and an irritant but in my view quite inefficient, in the way it is done in India.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Jan 2010 09:31

Just an observation a bomb scare on an AC forced Unkil to quickly enforce a mandatory complete body search for citizens of its closest ally in GOAT and what did GOI do after 26/11 as part of maintaining heightened alertness or whatever that means ? Why is that a country thousands of miles away is frisking someone across the border while we talk about resuming dialogue or whatever , do so called rationalists or strategy types believe that doing so will lead to a nuclear escalation

.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2010 09:42

shiv wrote:India's biggest and most pathetic public relations failure has been its inability and unwillingness to point out an open anti Hindu bias in Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Sikh bias could have been used as well - but India's internal events (Op Blue Star) aided Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Shia and anti-Ahmedi bias are eminently usable traits that India has botched. Pakistan's anti Christian bias can also be used if Indians have the brains to handle the issue well, but when an 80% Hindu majority country is unable to pin Pakistan down on an open anti-Hindu bias and instead allow themselves to be painted as anti Muslim where does the fault lie?

Beg to differ here , but who would India convince about such bias in Pakistan?

Saudis / The Ummah?
The West?

For one, since when have these parties been interested in listening? Even if they listen, their defensive reflex will be to protect Pakistan by fingering India in turn (as we see in the case of the USA). And for another, compared to India, there is precious little they can do about Pakistan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Jan 2010 09:46

Master China , The New God of Old Fuddus in Seach of Paycheck .
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... l-410-zj-0

Mao and the Taj Mahal

Code: Select all

The Indian schizophrenia about China — not to be confused with the loutish behaviour of some NRIs in Beijing the other day — is probably rooted in the Nehruvian romance with its popular revolution and Sardar Patel’s aversion to the communists who led it. However, neither of them had the acumen of Pakistan’s leftist poet Habib Jalib, who considered the issue succinctly:“Cheen hamara yaar hai, uspe jaa’n nisaar hai.
Par wahaa’n jo hai nizaam, usko dur se salaam.
Us taraf na jaaiyo.”
On the way back from Beijing, partly to keep a discreet distance from the men from Vancouver and partly to apologise for their bad behaviour, I sat next to a Chinese businessman. I said to him that I liked the young and energetic Chinese men and women and the fact that Chairman Mao was able to pull them out of their opium-smoking servility and make them a major global player. The reply may have been backhanded but I realised it only after reaching home. “You have the Taj Mahal, which is very nice

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 09:47

vera_k wrote:
shiv wrote:India's biggest and most pathetic public relations failure has been its inability and unwillingness to point out an open anti Hindu bias in Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Sikh bias could have been used as well - but India's internal events (Op Blue Star) aided Pakistan. Pakistan's anti-Shia and anti-Ahmedi bias are eminently usable traits that India has botched. Pakistan's anti Christian bias can also be used if Indians have the brains to handle the issue well, but when an 80% Hindu majority country is unable to pin Pakistan down on an open anti-Hindu bias and instead allow themselves to be painted as anti Muslim where does the fault lie?
Beg to differ here , but who would India convince about such bias in Pakistan?

Saudis / The Ummah?
The West?
.

How about Indians? WKKs? Jholawalas? Pinko liberals?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 09:51

This is where the "Respect the Power" comes in. Our policy of not wielding a stick is what led us into this situation. MMS's insistence on improving economy has one major flaw. All that development can be undone by being soft. If he talks strong and thumps the table in Khrushchev fashion at our own Parliament, you will see paki officers shit in their pants in Islamabad. I promise all this aman ki thamasha and whining that we see about us being aggressive gets vaporised. hell,even Amir khan will know its time to stop messing around with the injuns.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Jan 2010 09:52

WKK, Jholawalas are pretending to sleep, cant wake them up. This leads me to another question, what is that which makes Pakistan Anti Hindu, Sikhs , Jews or others ? Does this phenomemon results from politics, economical reasons or security concerns? There must exist a common thread ruuning through all walks of Paki society which exert such fixatinmg influence . Any Guess?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 14 Jan 2010 09:56

Altair wrote:Amir khan will know its time to stop messing around with the injuns.

Aamir Khan is an Indian.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 09:59

ShauryaT wrote:
Altair wrote:Amir khan will know its time to stop messing around with the injuns.
Aamir Khan is an Indian.

Amir Khan == Amreekan == Uncle Sam == Ombaba [:)]

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2010 10:13

shiv wrote:How about Indians? WKKs? Jholawalas? Pinko liberals?

Jholawalas and pinko liberals have a global alliance with the Islamists because they are fighting for revolution all over the world - why would they care to listen? WKKs seem to either overlap with the leftists or are that way for other reasons that are a priority for them. But yes, their positions have to be shown up to be indefensible to Indians.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jan 2010 10:30

All Pinko Liberals and Psuedo secular's are just in the pay of certain Dominant powers in the world, they also like the present setup as they make good deal money from those who have Black money and European Banking system.

From thier point of view there is no money to be made from Nationalism and they don't seem to have any other skills where they can survive in the real world.

They are plain and simple traitors, if thier masters go for Aman Ki Aasha they will go for it, if thier masters say kill DRDO they will go for it, if thier master say go after Indian Army generals they will go for it.

The sooner you accept that they are not one of us the sooner you will see the logic of thier reporting. Many of these so called Liberals have thier next generation in foreign shores and probably expect to flee when they have done and have turned India into a Democratic Republic of Congo, it is these people who have made a quick buck for selfis h interests who have betraying the nation for the last 1000 years repeatedly andd no I don'tmean from just a religious standpoint, eg. Battle of Plassey, general who betrayed Siraj-ud-din.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 10:37

vera_k wrote:
shiv wrote:How about Indians? WKKs? Jholawalas? Pinko liberals?
Jholawalas and pinko liberals have a global alliance with the Islamists because they are fighting for revolution all over the world - why would they care to listen?

This, combined with the flak that Hindus take is the PR failure I was talking about. There are two ways to look at this - one is a philosophical acceptance/dismissal, and the other is to try and do what it takes to change things. The latter too has been botched, and hence the former becomes a convenient sour grapes rationalization. OT for this thread but the reasons for botching the PR job could be analysed - but it would require honesty and honesty could cause takleef depending on what is dredged up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2010 10:39

Aditya_V wrote: accept that they are not one of us

Interesting thought process - the declaration of one group in one's own country as "not one of us".

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jan 2010 10:50

ok guyz this is the paki bashing thread and I am tired of jabs at various Indians.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Jan 2010 10:56

deleted

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2010 11:12

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 439117.cms

Reports from Jammu suggested that a senior Army officer in the unified headquarters meeting told the defence minister that “Pakistan is up to something big” and “we need to know what it is”

Any Gurus can throw some light on what the Army think tank opines on Paki's tactically brilliant possible move?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jan 2010 11:50

shiv Wrote

Aditya_V wrote:
accept that they are not one of us
Interesting thought process - the declaration of one group in one's own country as "not one of us".

SHiv Ji, I beg to differ the way entire WKK group Lecture to India in the articles, it is clear they don't consider themselves as Indians but rather foreigners. Many of them are either residents or have Visa arrangements with Foreign countries to leave once they weaken India
, I looked at the thier behaviour and any cause which basically weakens India is immediately supported by them.

Please explain why they are Indians, I am treating them the way they define themselves only.

P.S Sorry for wasting Bandwidth on the PAKi thread.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Jan 2010 11:53

Altair wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 439117.cms
Reports from Jammu suggested that a senior Army officer in the unified headquarters meeting told the defence minister that “Pakistan is up to something big” and “we need to know what it is”
Any Gurus can throw some light on what the Army think tank opines on Paki's tactically brilliant possible move?

I am no Guru

, but I think this is a damp squib. If other reports are to be believed, Indian govt is ready to forget about Mumbai and get into bed with TSP. I doubt TSP will jeopradize such an impending achievement by doing something "big". But then who knows.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 14 Jan 2010 12:02

Prem wrote:Master China , The New God of Old Fuddus in Seach of Paycheck .
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... l-410-zj-0

This Pakbarian jehadi pig is insulting his masters by suggesting that Chinese dismantled a plane and stole its IP...and that it assaults journalists for no sane reason. He also insults himself by admitting that all he could do was sympathise silently..therefore has no b..s to speak of...

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Jan 2010 12:05

The National Bird of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan pays a visit:

US drone strike kills '10 militants' in Pakistan

Meanwhile within the last 24 hours the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has been trying to disown the National Bird but as today’s visit shows the plaintive Pakistani bleating has been given short shrift:

Pakistan says U.S. drone attacks could hurt ties

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jan 2010 13:16

shiv wrote:This, combined with the flak that Hindus take is the PR failure I was talking about.

Shiv,

I don't see this at all. If anything India gets all kinds of lee way to deal with its 'internal' problems, lee way the other countries simply do not get. Look at what Malaysia is going through over the 'Allah' riots. Or the recent uproar over the UAE torture "not guilty" verdict.

Much of the criticism over this sort of stuff comes from within the Hindu community. It is rare that a Non-Hindu comments, internally or externally. The lone exception being the Pakistani's. This should not be conflated to being the entire world. The Pakistani's would like us to believe that no muslim would be happy to live in India. This is simply not true.

Indian muslim's I know do not like Pakistanis at all, even more than Hindu's, and the feeling is mutual strangely... ..Though I have some ideas why.

I suspect at least some of this self criticism is because sections of the Hindu community believe the internal reform process is still not complete.

The Hindu belief system as practiced today is very different from that a few centuries ago. The lines are still not clear.

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 14 Jan 2010 13:23

Top officials in Islamabad criticise drone attacks in public but acquiesce privately

US Senator scolds Pak leaders over drone criticisms
A top Senate ally of President Barack Obama sharply scolded Pakistan's leaders Wednesday, charging that their public criticism of US drone strikes did not jibe with private acceptance of such attacks.
US Senate Armed Services Committee chairman Carl Levin, fresh from a trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan, told reporters on a conference call that he was "very unhappy" with the vocal criticism from top officials in Islamabad.
"What troubles me is the public attack on these drone attacks," when in private Pakistani leaders "not only understand and acquiesce but in many cases privately support the drone attacks," said Levin
...

link