Indian Interests

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 13 Jan 2011 03:54

AMAZING!

I just went and calculated for how long the Nehru Dynasty has been in power.

The Congress left party has ruled India 89% of the time and the Nehru feudal family has ruled 82% of that time since India's independence!

Nehru prime minister of India, from 1947 until 1964 17 years

Indira Gandhi Prime Minister of the Republic of India for three consecutive terms from 1966 to 1977 and for a fourth term from 1980 until her death in 1984, a total of fifteen years. 15 years

Rajeev Gandhi (Indira's son) was the 7th Prime Minister of India, serving from October 1984 to December 1989/91. = 7 years

ManMohan Singh as a Proxy PM for Sonia Gandhi. He took the oath as the Prime Minister of India on 22 May 2004 = 7 years +

Total = 46 years

Lal Bahudur Shastri (Congress Party) = 2 years

P. V. Narasimha Rao (Congress Party) = 1991-1886 = 6 years

= 56 years. 56 years out of 63 years of India's independence

Now, they have Rahul and and his sister in waiting. As long as their family has children, this dynasty is going to go into perpetuity. No Hopie Changie for India...ever!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List ... of_India

In all this time, the left of India has not built infrastructure like irrigation for the farmers of India. They have never owned up to any problems in India. They have blamed everyone else...but not been held accountable.

Is this really a republic anymore?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2011 04:02

Manny, That rises a question. Did India win freedom or Independence?
to me they got Independence from teh British but not freedom for themsleves. The Nehru-Gandhi clique imposed a dynastic version of socialism that curbs freedom. If you look at anything its the govt that allows you your freedom and they control the govt. All those IAs officers are to keep them in power.

munna · Post by **munna** » 13 Jan 2011 04:10

I know this will look unpalatable and fairly cold but what gives?

India as a democratic republic nation is essentially a "jugaad". An intrinsically close knitted and hierarchical society with family as the central lynchpin underwent democratisation after 1947. Mix with this the basic structure of our statist economy whereby the money power is derived from political power we have a deadly mix of patronage demand and supply. Since patronage forms the bedrock of "success" in India naturally people gravitate towards those who have it the most (remember one PM of India abolished the privy purses of princes). Unfortunately this is one core characteristic of our society (by this I mean the average Ramu/Swamy) that has been well understood by the central dynasty. They had the early mover advantage and reins of power to mould the country and polity to their advanatge, which they did. Not to belittle the achievements of the same dynasty but off late it seems having one family at helm of affairs could lead to "power-jacking" of the national government.

Well all things said, there are only two realistic ways of introducing diversity to polity:

1) Create new dynasties on the other ends of political spectrums. The dynasties need not be one family show rather we can have an oligarchy of multiple dynasties with some rising and others withering time to time. Case in point the families of Shayam Prasad Mookerjee or Deen Dayal Upadhyay, had some one taken off from where they left, the right spectrum would have had a tradition to speak off. All withered and gone to dust! Not many even in the BRF crowd would know as to who revolted against Nehru to thwart Abdullah's plans in 1950s. Lost in the mist of time

2) Create a parivar that is not a dynasty. The last NDA government tried to operate on this basis but their painstakingly built patronage and power networks were destroyed within a year. Such a network gets marred by individual egos and the hurry to achieve something in one's life as one's progeny will stand no chance due to internal politics.

Salient features of dynasties in our polity:
1) Dynasties have longevity as they can outlast any individual leader no matter how powerful or charismatic! Case in point ABV
2) Dynasties can build continuous patronage networks that are impossible to replicate with only cadre based polity
3) Dynasties are institutions in themselves and as such tend to crowd out competition in political arena
4) Brand recognition. Example If my grandfather was given rs 20,000 for medical bills by YSR when he was an MLA then I shall swear by his son. Nation, party and religion be dam.....
5) They are prone to power capture and can easily become a big pain if they have wrong advisors or malafide intentions in first place

Love them or hate them but they are salient and electorally proven feature of our nation. My question is, if we have a nanda dynasty then where is the new dynast to challenge him and his chanakya?

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 13 Jan 2011 04:19

ramana wrote:Manny, That rises a question. Did India win freedom or Independence?
to me they got Independence from teh British but not freedom for themsleves. The Nehru-Gandhi clique imposed a dynastic version of socialism that curbs freedom. If you look at anything its the govt that allows you your freedom and they control the govt. All those IAs officers are to keep them in power.

That is so true!

I feel the congress party suffers from Munchhausen syndrome by proxy. It needs 600 million sick and dying so they can constantly mother them. Imagine these millions of people become like the other rich people of India. Holy cow..that's the end of the congress party. The Horror of it frightens the lefty congress family feudals. When the "India shining" Reaganisque moral boosting campaign cry was put out to the nation to wake up its citizens to act, the left cringed and loathed such a thing. They hated it and mocked it. What we have is like Eva Peron government of Argentina. Fooling the illiterate masses with caste and religious politics of division. aIronically its the Macaulite educated folks of India who cheer lead the ignorant illiterates of India to keep voting for this congress feudal family regime.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jan 2011 04:21

ramana ji,
IAS officers are themselves powerless. They are not accountable to the people directly and hence they can never control the levers of power. The real power is the rashtryia system in its totality - the legislative system, the representative system, the judicial system, and lastly the coercive machinery - army, and police and secret services. This was inherited intact from the British colonial system, with some cosmetic changes but no real fundamental changes.

Apart form the army, if some of these rashtryia functionaries had at least been elected by the people, they would have been able to exercise more real power.

The British system that was essentially devised for central, autocratic and at best oligarchical control - made it develop so that the apparatus of state power is dependent on the apparatus of personal power. Even if there is a formal appearance of "people's sanction" through formal elections. The state structure and apparatus make this duplicity possible by putting the oligarchy/dictator [in the original Roman sense - which was actually an elected post but gave absolute power to the elected dictator for fixed period to deal with extraordinary situations] as the chief face of state and the key visible mediator between the people and the state apparatus.

If there is too much popular grievance the oligarch can pass on the blame to the hidden state apparatus and pretend anger or taking action. The people see the oligarch only and they are forced to see in the oligarch the only hope of manipulating the rashtra. By putting himself between the people and the state, the oligarch can manipulate the rashtryia apparatus and make its officials dependent on himself.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jan 2011 04:28

The ill effects of a dynasty doesn't have to be countered by another dynasty. If the hopes of a dynasty is allowed to survive, whoever starts the reform process will fail. Elements of the old mohasib circles will lie low and revive - sons and grandsons posing as revolutionaries and heretics and rebels, and come back to the old system by putting up a son/daughter of the reformist.

Better make much of the state officials and bodies directly accountable to the people by election or referendum. The transitionary stage will necessitate some kind of a tightly knit collective leadership which may develop signs of someone being "first among equals", but I guess a strict agreement that his/her apatya will not be put upon the throne even if popularly elected, should be imposed to break that tradition.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jan 2011 04:33

Those who think that the Congress dynasty will last forever based on Indian history allegory - should see that almost all dynastic setups had a reboot [with possible lateral blood entry or even replacement by "upstarts"] after three generations. Moreover the frequency of the changeover has been quickening. In fact the longer a dynasty managed to survive, the more clean and total has been its subsequent erasure. Think Delhi sultanate dynasties, think Mughals.

In fact wellwishers of dynasties should really think of availing of that third gen reboot system of Indian antiquities, rather than risk the Mughal model and ultimately vanish completely.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 13 Jan 2011 04:48

The weird and sad thing is, If you ask the left liberals (aka clueless ignorants) of the US, they would say cause they believe, India is always ruled by right wing Hindutva!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jan 2011 05:18

munna ji,
Deen Dayal was possibly murdered. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee's lineage perhaps is not that entirely gone. The thing is there is also this strange expectation in certain circles that also support the "right", that an exceptional leader must prove his saintliness especially with regards to women. Preferably a brahmachari - and no marriage, if at all. Bose cannot have a daughter. Somehow, a family/wife/child is a dirty thing or a tarnishing of the appeal or image. On the other hand look at what happened to the lineage of C.R.Das producing the prodigy SSRoy.

munna · Post by **munna** » 13 Jan 2011 06:05

brihaspati wrote:munna ji,
Deen Dayal was possibly murdered. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee's lineage perhaps is not that entirely gone. The thing is there is also this strange expectation in certain circles that also support the "right", that an exceptional leader must prove his saintliness especially with regards to women. Preferably a brahmachari - and no marriage, if at all. Bose cannot have a daughter. Somehow, a family/wife/child is a dirty thing or a tarnishing of the appeal or image. On the other hand look at what happened to the lineage of C.R.Das producing the prodigy SSRoy.

BRihaspati-ji you have touched the raw nerve and Achilles heel of the so called "right" they do not encourage leaders with broods, persecute any concentrator of resources and finally tend to infight and destroy many a leaders. In short there strategy has an evolutionary dysfunction.

In my previous post I believe that maybe an oligarchy composed of families, individuals and institutions can take on the entrenched interests. Simply put is beyond one party alone to do the hard hitting after the fall of delhi in 2004. The wealth and crony capitalism has ensured that old guard has managed to accumulate lots of money power and will exercise it at opportune time. The thinking is that even if power is lost in 2014 the opposition will again be a weak patron when in power and hence could be brought down like a pack of cards. Family or dynasty in our context is an institution and only another institution can fight it, as of now there is none. Removal from power counts for zilch as was proven in post-emergency era. The whole idea of TINA needs to abolished.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Jan 2011 06:12

Manny wrote: I feel the congress party suffers from Munchhausen syndrome by proxy. It needs 600 million sick and dying so they can constantly mother them. Imagine these millions of people become like the other rich people of India. Holy cow..that's the end of the congress party. The Horror of it frightens the lefty congress family feudals. When the "India shining" Reaganisque moral boosting campaign cry was put out to the nation to wake up its citizens to act, the left cringed and loathed such a thing. They hated it and mocked it. What we have is like Eva Peron government of Argentina. Fooling the illiterate masses with caste and religious politics of division. aIronically its the Macaulite educated folks of India who cheer lead the ignorant illiterates of India to keep voting for this congress feudal family regime.

+10 onlee. Bingo!
Welfare state is the condition that a dynasty ruled party likes. So with all the commies. They want to create citizenry that depend on the mammaries of State for even simple needs as eeking out a survival. This is precisely achieved through coercion, intimidation, favourtism and fear mongering by the rulers. The capacity and the motivation to be free of the government support, is killed. So citizenry constantly look to the state for even simple solutions. Hoping the government will regulate itself and the powers that be are going to become benevolent to let themselves become accountable is a pipe dream.

The size of the government and government venture in non-essential areas should be drastically small. The government should be in the business of governing and not in building infrastructures to dispense welfare schemes. There are many government institutions and structures, that can be closed down without any negative impact. Governors office is one such, that basically lives on the fat of the land. Reducing the size of the government will yield growth everywhere.
More babus pushing papers without productive work, more red tape, then it disables productive work. Such conditions enable the most inefficient to rise to the top, just like the leadership in the congress party. This is not only wasted effort but lost opportunity for the efficient who would have done justice to the position/s.

Minimal governance should be the mantra for the citizenry.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Jan 2011 08:54

Montek Singh Ahluwalia is being discussed as next Finance Minister. I don't know if it is possible but seems to be a news in the corridors. Pranab Da may be moved to Home and Chidu to his very older Commerce and Industry. This is just a talk in various blogs including PP.

What does that tell? Is Sonia a puppet of MMS? I guess if this happens we need to discuss this way instead of the continuous assmption that MMS as some puppent of 2G.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Jan 2011 09:47

Muppalla wrote:Montek Singh Ahluwalia is being discussed as next Finance Minister. I don't know if it is possible but seems to be a news in the corridors. Pranab Da may be moved to Home and Chidu to his very older Commerce and Industry. This is just a talk in various blogs including PP.

What does that tell? Is Sonia a puppet of MMS? I guess if this happens we need to discuss this way instead of the continuous assmption that MMS as some puppent of 2G.

The article from The Telegraph about this has been posted on the previous page

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jan 2011 17:45

^^^What if both are puppets of a third party? On the other hand, look at it also as a symbolic representation of the way the Congress brain works. It is scared of the "majority". it is also scared of the "periphery". Hence for key amatya positions - whose strings can be pulled by the autocrat at will - are filled up with token but efficient brains from the periphery. More importantly periphery which has always defied the centre.

People who themselves directly do not have a very large mass base to independently stand up against the centre on their regional mass base alone.

So Pranav-Bengal/Bengali, MMS-Punjab/Sikh, PC-TN [a slightly different pattern from the other two], Pawar-Maha/Marathi. In fact the the slight differences between the first two and the last two actually stem from the relative political base weakness of the first two compared to the last two. So the first two are in more "important" read influential positions than the last two [who have both proved how dangerous they are in "breaking away" and therefore will never really be trusted by the north-Indian-Delhi based network].

Congress can be modeled as a three cornered contest for power between a north-Indian-plains based network of long established feudal and business interests primarily from the majority community, a non-north-Indian non-upper old UP rest of India regional competing claimants to capacity and talent in running the country, external interests mediated through the layers of colonial establishment which have transmutated through the organs of the state.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Jan 2011 02:58

Pull of recast, pressure of tokenism - Sonia faces twin tests

...
The arrowhead impulse for cabinet changes remain two of Manmohan’s senior-most colleagues — finance minister Pranab Mukherjee and home minister P. Chidambaram. Both have been involved in scarcely disguised one-upmanship, especially since the leak of the Niira Radia tapes.
...
...
Chidambaram, if other parts of the complex jigsaw fit, could be sent to the external affairs ministry as replacement for S.M. Krishna who has failed to fit the requirements of the job.

Insiders say the foreign ministry job cannot be seen as a reward for Chidambaram because all key areas are effectively run by PMO mandarins, including national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon.

The case for moving Pranab out of finance, even though the next budget is under preparation, is that the price spiral has become a big-ticket headache for the government and measures, even if symbolic, need to be taken to assuage public restiveness.
...
...
Manmohan also wants to drop or change ministers in all infrastructure departments — surface transport, steel, power, heavy industries and petroleum — on grounds of poor or indifferent performance.
...
...
Other ministers who are in the firing line are environment minister Jairam Ramesh, foreign minister Krishna, law minister Veerappa Moily and parliamentary affairs minister Pawan Bansal.
...
...
The chance of a major shuffle also depends on Manmohan and Sonia’s ability to convince Pranab to relinquish finance.
..
...
Many leaders feel Rahul’s extraordinary push for younger leaders was immature and would be of little help to the party which is facing such complex problems.

They fear the differing perceptions among the top three — Manmohan, Sonia and Rahul — may force them to adopt a cautious approach and put off the much-hyped drastic shuffle
...
...

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 14 Jan 2011 16:23

Hours after the Ambanis participated in a Vibrant Gujarat summit with Narendra Modi, the following news item appears:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/

ANIL AMBANI FIRMS BARRED FROM SECONDARY MARKET TRADING

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2011 20:49

Again goes to the question Independence or Freedom?

And recall it was Anil Ambani that cobbled the UPA-I coalition by arm twisting Mulayam Singh and make him swallow the frog of Sonia Gandhi's foreign origins!

Most people want freedom but settle for survival

So what UPA is doing is tradeoff to see if Anil settles for survival and gets scared of them.

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 14 Jan 2011 23:51

As it was stated many moons ago here on BRF, Indian business men and the political class need to keep one and only thing in mind when it comes to national interest.

Compete but cooperate. This will be even more true when the pie gets bigger and bigger in near future as country tends to propsoer more and more.

There needs to be certain red lines that should not be crossed by anyone...Things were in this direction but developments in last couple of years don't look that good.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 15 Jan 2011 07:26

The sabrimala stampede toll may go upto 100, it is feared.

Some relevant tweets on why temple management has to be freed from govt hands at any cost:
http://twitter.com/#!/RajeevSrinivasa

#sabarimala revenue rs. 131 crore this year. all of it is stolen by the govt. amount spent on pilgrim facilities? probably rs. 1 crore

#sabarimala. for years, there have been complaints about lack of forest land, roads, water, toilets. board, govt shadow-box and do nothing

#sabarimala. devaswom board has no business being a govt department. it should be an independent entity, not infiltrated with atheists

#sabarimala. there should be separation of Church and State. govt has no business running temples, esp if handsoff to mosques/churches

#sabarimala. large crowds are vulnerable: mecca sees tragedies despite all the money. yet, here the facilities are only adequate for 1/3

#sabarimala. a plan needs to be drawn up anticipating pilgrim numbers 5 yrs ahead, with crowd management computerized, a la tirupati

IMHO, the lot of Yindia's Yindoos will brighten up a whole darn lot if they were declared a minority in India and were given all the rights and priviliges available currently only to minorities in India - freedom in terms of shrines, edu institutions, NGOs, media support, lobbying prowess and the like. However, chances are, at least in places like Kerala, WB and Asom, we'll be reduced to a de facto minority w/o any of the benefits filtering through even then.

"sigh".

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 15 Jan 2011 07:40

unless we treat them and prosecute the board directors/road transport minister for these murders (no I wouldnt call them anything else), nothing will change.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Jan 2011 18:51

I think the Congress and centre's tactic will be to spin it as somehow related to the way the "religion" is practised. It will be pilgrims who will be responsible - for not being disciplined enough. Not the way the Hindu temple trusts are run.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 15 Jan 2011 19:00

^^ The overseers are most likely be atheists who either do not have pulse to the ground realities or deliberately neglect arrangements. Margazhi (margashira) month (traditional 9th month of the year) is extremely auspicious in southern states. That's the season where important projects/events are not initiated. It is devoted towards taking stock of the situation, performance review of the previous seasons and generally planning for the coming seasons and the year. Mostly it is dedicated towards spiritual contemplation of existence, goals of human life, other lofty ideals and the whole shebang.

Devotees throng the temples towards that fulfillment. Most vrathas converge on the last day of the month. There is simulation of "Hari-dwar" aka swarga vasal (moksha dwar) at vishnu temples. Arudra darshnam, tiruvaadira festivals happen in shiva and other temples.

It does not take a lot for stampede to happen. The chain of events happens far from the simulation point. Order breaks down when individuals loose information. This is well seen in death march by ants, where most individual ants just follow the chemical clues from other neighbouring ants and adjust their behavior. Usually, ants are pretty good in evoking swarm intelligence in pursuit of their goals. Sometimes when they mess up, they form a circle as the path, and blissfully each and every ant generally tend to stick together in tight packing and not venture out of the group to commence death march. They die of exhaustion by circling and cannot afford to stop and break away from the group. Group intelligence gone wrong resulting in a disaster.

Individuals also do not and cannot have lot of information about what is happening at the very far side. The behavior turns into mimicking what other individuals are doing in the immediate vicinity. If some/few slow down at the the head of the queue they can easily setoff chain of events, that cascades into stampede.

Such choke points and potential for minimization is done by either overcapacity or by intelligently tracking/monitoring/directing the crowd movement in real time, not an impossibility. But investing on such cheap and easy technical solutions are not going to be a priority for the atheists managing the situation. Kumbh mela and other events are well studied to predict crowd behaviour to avoid/minimize choke points.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 15 Jan 2011 20:22

I got an interesting write up yesterday in the email... Apparently it's been circulating on the net for a couple of days. Here it is for download... Not sure who the author is, but it has some interesting observations and propositions... Distribute wide and free, as it says a lot of things we on BRF have been talking about for a while.

http://www.2shared.com/document/G_Qr6nt ... nge_P.html

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Jan 2011 23:31

http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/BFN-fullbook.pdf

This is good book with the right way of thinking.

Sanjeev Sabhlok © 20092 BREAKING FREE OF NEHRU

Yes, reformers in India did get an upper hand for a while
during the financial crisis of 1991. But even if that were entirely true, no
one from the current socialist regime wants to publicly admit that:
firstly, this was blatantly capitalist, not socialist medicine; secondly, it
was the right medicine; and

Our
socialists had to first plunge us into high fever before some of them
agreed to take this medicine. Why eat contaminated food (socialist
policy) in the first place?
Recent economic growth has helped to reduce poverty and has made
a few people very rich, but all this has not translated into a significant
improvement in the quality of life of the vast majority of Indians, who
continue to be illiterate and poor.
That is primarily because our
governance is still driven by socialist and other antiquated principles.
For India to aspire to much higher growth rates, to eradicate poverty
and corruption, and to preserve its environment, we now have to
internalize the requirements of freedom which call for individual
responsibility and accountability.

India has not yet, as a nation, understood
what it means to be free. That being a key message of this book, it will be
useful to start with a bird’s-eye view of freedom in Indian life.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 17 Jan 2011 07:17

Acharya wrote:http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/BFN-fullbook.pdf

This is good book with the right way of thinking.
Sanjeev Sabhlok © 20092 BREAKING FREE OF NEHRU

Have started reading and after a few sections, it looks like... (initial impression), the title sounded impressive, but will await for final take on it after I complete (looks more unlikely now having gone through 50% it.).
For some time I thought it was our friend Rahul Mehta++ was writing that book, although with a difference of prescribing medicine to all the ills. India's poverty can be solved overnight. Fascinating onlee. Guy has gone feral and bitter about anything and everything. Being a declared and card carrying atheist serves as alter-ego to communist. Bhadralok ex-babu gone wild.
This book is like a slapstick work where generous amount of generalization with a good amount of borrowings from Adam Smith, Bell curve, (TFTA - kid you not Tallness is also presented as a factor) worshipping with customary bashing of the west to reach it far and trying to put it together. Generous amount of dumping on Hindus as having institutionalized discrimination, yada yada...
Looks like there is axe to grind everywhere and with everything.... Could almost have been commissioned by Gunga Din incorporated company. Looks like Bhadralok ex-babu, part time ex-politico, disenchanted outpourings... , although correct on some calls of free market v/s socialism. If you have lot of time and patience for rant of how one redeemed oneself by discovering the virtues of free market, this would be the book.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jan 2011 07:15

I wanted to post on this topic for a while now - the excesses of the courts!

Our courts have become laws unto themselves, intruding the territory of the legislature and the executive, where it should not. Many hail these moves by the courts as the last savior of democracy and probity in public life, but forget that the judges themselves are appointed by the same elected authorities and are subject to the same pressures and pulls of public life, much like other babus and politicians.

Let us not forget the 42nd and 43rd amendments would not have been possible were it not for compliant judges. Same is the case for shoving bills under the ninth schedule for all these years, until the courts finally woke up.

The problem here is not just a simple separation of powers, which from the very start was trampled by the legislature and allowed to but more serious. With our long constitution with its many amendments, the courts are confused and are unable to uphold a philosophy of (rooted in a rich history of case laws and examples on critical matters - for many contradict), except for some basic things like freedom, rights, democracy, etc.

With our system of governance, based on a unitary model as its safeguard principle and a federated model as its administrative first preference, coupled with an executive, that is not separate from the legislature, where do things go from here for the courts.

Attached is the latest example on the issue, the sword cuts both ways.
Centre defends Thomas's appointment, questions SC authority

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 18 Jan 2011 14:55

More folks internationally and in the country recognizing India for what it is....A monarchy. With even the BBC giving this coverage, one can be sure this will get good play.

Way to go !!

India Sliding into a Monarchy

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 18 Jan 2011 22:34

Indian-Tajik air base negotiations expose India’s limited regional influence
http://centralasianewswire.com/Security ... px?id=2820

Not sure how much of this is to believed, but looks like deploying fighter jets in Ayni is out of the picture for now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2011 22:44

^^^^ interesting facts that show how the decision was made:

Another reason is that although Tajikistan’s government is secular, it is facing a new wave of growing Islamic extremism across the country. Allowing predominantly Hindu India to operate out of Ayni, just six miles outside the capital Dushanbe in support of the Afghan government, would risk giving an emotional cause to the extremists.

It would have also displeased China, one of the two dominant powers in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), of which Tajikistan is a member state. Though the SCO’s other major power, Russia, does not object to India joining the SCO -- which projects power across the heart of the Asian landmass – China has consistently blocked India’s accession to the organization.

Ultimately, it was Russia that put its foot down leading the Tajiks to reject Indian access to Ayni. The Indians would have been aiding the U.S. armed forces in Afghanistan. And though Russia has been an Indian ally for decades, Russia wants more immediately the United States out of Afghanistan.

The Indian effort to gain access to the base was also a bad political move.

The Indian Foreign Ministry’s obsession with getting a squadron of Russian-supplied Mi-17 helicopters and MiG-29 fighter-bombers based at Ayni reflected a focus on superficial appearances rather than real interests. Such a small force would not have had an appreciable impact on the rise of Taliban forces in Afghanistan. Instead, it would have played into their hands by further discrediting Karzai as the puppet of Indian as well as U.S. forces.

Also, Tajikistan is by far the poorest, weakest and least influential of Central Asia’s five former Soviet republics. It has no access to Caspian Sea hydrocarbons, little strategic interest and a level of silver deposits not yet worth putting in the effort to exploit.

Having a small air force presence at Ayni would neither have raised revenue for India nor provided extra security for Tajikistan or Afghanistan. And it would not have contributed to India’s own defense or national interests

If above info is correct than Russia doesnt support Karzai.

Indian interests in Ayni are to provide a military presence to support their own perosnnel in Afghanistan. Looks like Tajiks had other pressing issues than allowing Indian presence in Ayni. And having both Russia and PRC oppose the move kind of limits the Indian space for making a move. Both see Indian presence as an aid to US.

The article is wrongly titled.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Jan 2011 22:49

Arjun wrote:More folks internationally and in the country recognizing India for what it is....A monarchy. With even the BBC giving this coverage, one can be sure this will get good play.

Way to go !!

India Sliding into a Monarchy

Seems to be a hit piece on India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2011 23:15

It ignores the fact that in India the feudals were democratized instead of being killed like in the French, Russian, Chinese revolutions or whereever the Commie meme reared its ugly head.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jan 2011 23:19

Gurudev, in India the democratization was led in turn by erstwhile "Feudals" themselves in so many cases.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2011 23:26

Exactly.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jan 2011 00:19

But then it might also have led to the current situation - because a solely feudal led democratization will not complete the task of democratization! Rather they will subvert and reinvent a hierarchical and feudal polity with the added benifit of apparent legitimacy of popular participation and approval.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Jan 2011 00:41

^^^ Not necessarily; a lot of subversion of democracy we see are by brand new Feudal. Those who aspired to be like Feudals and found democracy and the willing submission of powers by "older" powers as an opportunity to make merry.

The subversion of democracy is by those who have sworn the most loudly by it (and the common man)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2011 01:13

J. Krishnamurthy:

The source of all human creativity is the ability to hold multiple conflicting thoughts in suspension simultaneously and without judgement."

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 19 Jan 2011 02:03

Ultimately what matters is the "people". Forms of government are of limited interest onlee. Monarchy, anarchy, democracy itiyadi.....do the people see a scope for material and spiritual growth? If yes, a big problem solved. People need roti, kapda, makkan aur izzat. Rest all comes next onlee.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jan 2011 02:31

ramana wrote:It ignores the fact that in India the feudals were democratized instead of being killed like in the French, Russian, Chinese revolutions or whereever the Commie meme reared its ugly head.

Gurudev, in India the democratization was led in turn by erstwhile "Feudals" themselves in so many cases.

This was some sort of social engineering which was brought to the nation at the time of independence but these newly democratized feudals did not understand the national interest in some ways. So there was a period of 50 years of low growth and low development

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jan 2011 02:34

Sanku wrote:^^^ Not necessarily; a lot of subversion of democracy we see are by brand new Feudal. Those who aspired to be like Feudals and found democracy and the willing submission of powers by "older" powers as an opportunity to make merry.

The subversion of democracy is by those who have sworn the most loudly by it (and the common man)

Agreed, but my problem is that - even the new feudals would really still do "feudalism"!

The difference from old feudals is that the old feudals actually fought/resisted going down under, while the new feudals replaced them in power/prestige by collaborating with the enemies of the "old" feudals. So in this sense they are "collaborating feudals" - losing the one quality of resistance in their predecessors.

However - feudal attitudes towards power and keeping it in the family remains and is the only common value shared with the "old".

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jan 2011 02:39

brihaspati wrote:
However - feudal attitudes towards power and keeping it in the family remains and is the only common value shared with the "old".

What about national interest.
The new feudals have a hazy view of the national interest and long term vision