Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

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Vashishtha
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vashishtha »

See, the Paks are like a grenade. A grenade is not meant to be preserved and valued for an indefinite period of time. A grenade is meant to be used. And in the process of being used, it gets destroyed. And that's fine for those that make the grenade.
:rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

Lalmohan wrote:110 lbs of explosives, not 100-150, not 50-100, but 110
pak police forensics must be damn good
He'd have said 50kg, and the MSNBC folks translated it to 110lb.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Sri »

RSoami wrote: Its because India has not got the balls to..No political will..I live in new Delhi.Mods can check my IP.

Will think about your advice altough I think its prejudiced,patronising and given in a hurry.
Regards
RSoami Ji, Chillax. I think you should be careful while making daring arguments and if you do, present them logically. We are all on same side only.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by anmol »

India And Operation Geronimo

The Editors

May 20, 2011

This is a guest post by Shashank Joshi, an Associate Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and doctoral student at Harvard University.

In no country did Osama bin Laden's demise generate as acute a sense of vindication as in India. For the past twenty years, India has pointed to Pakistan as the epicentre of regional and global terrorism.

Aside from sensationalist headlines and the occasional barb, India’s self-satisfaction was generally muted, expressed in tones of exasperation rather than glee. In the short-term, bin Laden’s discovery at the heart of the Pakistani establishment offers only a fleeting sense of schadenfraude to Indian decision-makers.

Despite the anger coming from the US Congress, it would be wishful thinking on the part of India to expect US assistance to Pakistan to dry up. As long as 130,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan continue to require feeding and fueling, and as long as the Northern Distribution Network (NDN) into the country is deemed inadequate, the US will not completely stem the flow of funds to the war's staging point.

Moreover, if bin Laden's death enables President Obama to declare victory in the Afghan campaign, as many Democrats are urging, then India envisages a new set of security threats. New Delhi fears that a precipitous US withdrawal would result in a power vacuum in Kabul, one that would open operating space for anti-Indian militants in southern and eastern Afghanistan.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was accorded the rare honour of addressing Afghanistan’s parliament in mid-May, and he pointedly exhorted the country to determine its future “without outside interference or coercion”. But Hamid Karzai’s growing overtures to Pakistan indicate that that this is unlikely to happen, and that significant concessions will be made to Pakistan as the peace process unfolds over the next several years.

India does have robust links to Afghan line ministries, but its influence within the regime has dwindled since Hamid Karzai’s firing of interior minister Hanif Atmar and intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh last year. It could attempt to re-activate old ties to what is left of the Northern Alliance, but this would make India little more than a bit player in any renewed civil war. It's ability to funnel money and arms to anti-Taliban warlords in the 1990s was hardly effective in preventing militancy across the rest of the country.

As a result, few in Delhi are calling for an American departure, even if this would grant Washington a freer hand in pressuring Pakistan’s generals. Whether or not this is a sound prognosis, it continues to guide Indian thinking about Afghanistan.

An Indian Abbottabad?

In the longer-term, however, May 2 2011, might prove to be a pivotal moment. This is because the circumstances of bin Laden's death may have shifted India's calculus for using force against Pakistan in future crises or standoffs.

This is categorically not because India is able to conduct an Abbottabad-esque raid, as Indian Army chief VK Singh suggested when he declared that "all arms of the [Indian] military are competent to carry out such an operation". They are not. (And this reflects a worrying trend among Indian Army chiefs to make self-assured and subsequently misinterpreted statements that complicate Indian diplomacy).

Pakistan's air defences did appear to receive a blow by the notional ease with which four American helicopters traversed the 160 miles from Jalalabad to Abbottabad, conducting a firefight under the nose of sleeping cadets of the Pakistan Military Academy, before supposedly evading hastily scrambled US-supplied F-16 jets of the Pakistan Air Force.

But this is a moot point, because India will operate on the entirely reasonable assumption that Pakistan was informed of the operation once it was underway and was told in no uncertain terms that the Pakistani Air Force would come to regret any interference.

More importantly, India’s soldiers and spies know that they possess neither the same proficiency in joint operations nor the necessary human intelligence to replicate the feat. According to B Raman, the former head of counterterrorism of India’s foreign intelligence service, India’s covert action capabilities in Pakistan were dismantled by then Prime Minister I K Gujral nearly fifteen years ago and have never been reconstructed. All this means that a figure like Hafiz Saeed, leader of the Punjabi terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, can sleep soundly without fear of Indian commandos dropping into his Lahore compound.

Perceptions of Pakistan

Rather, the important implications of Operation Geronimo lie in the way it has transformed global perceptions of Pakistan’s links to militant organisations.

This international dismay with Pakistan is somewhat ironic, because the evidence tying the Pakistan Army and ISI intelligence agency to Al Qaeda is weaker and more circumstantial than that implicating them in the activities of other groups, such as the Afghan Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba, or Jaish-e-Mohammed, which has been steadily mounting over the past decade.

Only a week before the US raid, the top American military officer, Admiral Mike Mullen, bluntly conceded that “the ISI has a long-standing relationship with the Haqqani network”. Separately, a federal court in Chicago will shortly implicate an officer of the ISI in the Mumbai attacks of 2008.

Few American and NATO officers still harbour any doubts about the direct collusion of the highest ranks of the Pakistani military with most segments of the Afghan insurgency. Leaked threat assessments from Guantanamo Bay are replete with references to links between the ISI and Taliban leader Mullah Omar.

And yet it took bin Laden's death to bring these sentiments to boiling point, prompting even President Obama to ask “whether there might have been some people inside of [Pakistan's] government” helping bin Laden to elude capture. Public statements are careful to note that the US has no evidence of Pakistani complicity, but officials privately express a certain incredulousness. Whether or not Pakistan did facilitate bin Laden's evasion of US forces - and there is a volume of circumstantial evidence each way - is less relevant than the effect that this episode has produced: a worldwide exhaustion of patience with Rawalpindi.

Perceptions Matter

This sea-change in perceptions matters. After Pakistan-based terrorists assaulted the Indian parliament as part of a sequence of attacks from 2001-02, India undertook its largest military mobilisation since the 1971 India-Pakistan War. Over a million troops were called up on each side, and many hundreds died in accidents and skirmishes. During that standoff, known as the “twin peaks crisis”, American and British diplomats made strenuous efforts to restrain India from using force.

But hereafter, diplomats everywhere will begin with a firmer presumption of state complicity. Last year, outgoing US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, normally a paragon of caution, noted that it was “not unreasonable to assume Indian patience would be limited were there to be further attacks” after that inflicted on Mumbai. Gates' comment was more than an observation; it was a warning, and one whose applicability has suddenly sharpened.

Washington is hardly likely to green-light a war, of course. It has deep-rooted concerns about nuclear escalation, and does not trust the command and control arrangements of either India or Pakistan. But it may go as far as to facilitate Indian air strikes away from urban areas, possibly through the provision of sensitive intelligence. This is particularly so if it deems the likely alternative to be an Indian ground assault that could result – as per Pakistani doctrine – in the use of tactical nuclear weapons against India's conventional forces on Pakistani soil.

The extent to which India has adopted a limited war plan – the so-called Cold Start doctrine – has been greatly overstated. That plan was developed by the army without consulting other branches of the military and it is yet to secure the approval of civilian leaders. Its logistical and organisational foundations are nowhere near ready.

But, as in the aftermath of Mumbai, the Indian Air Force is likely prepared and willing to conduct aerial attacks. An Indian defence journalist, Manoj Joshi, claimed that in November 2008 "all three services were keen to strike" and that the IAF went as far as to activate its forward bases. Segments of the civilian leadership, particularly in any future government controlled by the nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (which is currently in opposition), would favour this option.

Far from being “surgical”, these would likely be ineffectual and risky. They would do little, in concrete terms, to degrade terrorist groups’ operational capabilities. Rather than deter Pakistan’s generals from the sponsorship of terrorism, they might renew widespread support for such a policy, although air strikes would serve a punitive and symbolic function – just as the US action did in Abbottabad.

None of this means that India is guaranteed to use force, and an array of other constraints - military readiness, fear of nuclear escalation, civilian reticence – will play their part. Nonetheless, the diplomatic environment in which the choice would be made has changed.

Old gamble, new odds

Does Pakistan understand this shift? The three years since the Mumbai attacks have passed without any significant acts of mass-casualty terrorism from Islamist groups. This is principally because the ISI has kept Lashkar-e-Taiba and affiliated groups on a tight leash (though the extent of that control over the minutiae of their operations remains contested).

The leash may tighten, but the Pakistani military is not ready to completely give up its "strategic assets", as Pakistan Army chief General Kayani once famously described warlord Jalaluddin Haqqani. This is because Pakistan's guiding assumption continues to be that the US is willing to discriminate between global and India-centric militants. That assumption became less tenable as these groups made alliances of expedience, cooperated in places like Waziristan, and some, like Lashkar-e-Taiba, began to explore Western targets.

The idea that the Americans are still willing to distinguish between different Pakistani militants may have dissolved altogether on that moonless night in Abbottabad. Pakistan's gamble that the US will turn a blind eye to attacks on India because they are peripheral to US interests may no longer pay off.

Whether or not one approves of putative Indian retaliation, and there are reasons to be leery, there is only one surefire way to transform international perceptions of Pakistan's involvement in any future attacks on India. That is for Pakistan to begin degrading – cautiously and without public fanfare – the full panoply of terrorist groups on its soil, and not just those threatening the Pakistani state. This is no easy task - it will take considerable finesse to prevent this leading to a further escalation of Pakistan's civil war.

This prescription is at odds with one advanced by Anatol Lieven, who has recently published an exhaustive study of Pakistan. Lieven argues that “the United States should accept and even welcome continued Pakistani military links to Lashkar-e-Taiba … while holding to the absolute condition that the Pakistani military uses these connections successfully to prevent further LeT attacks”. The audacity of this argument only marginally obscures its wrongheadedness. As extraordinarily painful as a process of adjustment would be, in a country already accustomed to considerable pain, endorsing such Pakistani “links” will purchase short-term stability at a potentially devastating long-term cost. (Lieven's argument also implies the reductio ad absurdum that one ought to fund any terrorist group over which one might exert some control).

Many Pakistanis reject this argument wholeheartedly. Babar Sattar, writing in Pakistan's Dawn newspaper, wrote with penetrating clarity that “it is time to completely liquidate the jihadi project and cleanse our state machinery of those who believe in its virtue”. Instead, the military establishment closed ranks. Kayani regrouped his senior officers and, with cowed civilians in tow, struck back at the US. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani hit a defiant note in parliament. The name of the CIA station chief in Islamabad was mysteriously leaked for the second time in six months. The war that should have been launched on militants was, it seems, launched on the CIA.

Once its complaint has been lodged, the dispute will quickly die down. But the disparity in perceptions between a disillusioned international community and a recalcitrant military establishment means that next time Pakistan stands indicted by India, the anticipated chorus of restraint may be reduced to a Pakistani solo.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by RSoami »

Daring arguments ??!! :eek:
I am a dhoti shiverer onlee... :)
And now that people are getting after my case, i might as well bhaago to my favourite BENIS dhaaga..
Regards
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by anupmisra »

shravan wrote:That is a sign for shahada. It means you attest the Unicity of Allah by raising one finger.
Which finger? The middle one?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vikas »

Pranav wrote:
VikasRaina wrote: Well you know what, Unfortunately American game and perfidy is causing lives of Indians. Why the Fuk should we pay free money to USA to get closer? India has been helping US by not squeezing Pak as much as we can. All we have to do is to move strike corps near the border and start talking about Cold Start and see Americans making a beeline to New Delhi.
See, the Paks are like a grenade. A grenade is not meant to be preserved and valued for an indefinite period of time. A grenade is meant to be used, sooner or later. And in the process of being used, it gets destroyed. And that's fine for those that make the grenade.
Pranav, This is one of the finest definition I have seen about Paki nation and its treatment by USA. A tip of hat to you.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vikas »

Is this another of the urban myth in making that India has no Humanint or covert action capabilities in Pakistan. IKG surely must have done damage but I find it hard to believe that in less than a year, he was able to dismantle what was created in 5000 Years.
We may not have built upon existing infrastructure but to say we are hunanint-nude in TSP is incredulous and shows complete lack of strategic understanding by Intel agencies if they followed IKG's order to the T.
Why has no one confronted IKG on this issue till yet ? Is a timepass, visionless, supportless,rudderless PM of India so powerful to cause immense damage to our strategic capability.

Could it be that this myth is to pull Pakis into sense of complacency or to deflect anger of Indian public by hiding behind lack of support in Pak to avoid doing Abbottabad in Muridkee?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by SSridhar »

On the 50 Thunders
China’s Foreign Ministry said it had no information about the agreement and calls to the Defence Ministry rang unanswered.
Mr. Mukhtar, who was in Beijing with Mr. Gilani, gave no details about financing, but put the price per plane at $20 million to $25 million, higher than many defence experts’ estimates of $15 million.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Sri »

^^^ From the above report I thought this statement was gem
Along with friendship, China provides Pakistan with aid and investment
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shravan »

JUST IN: Quetta: 5 suspected Chechen killed, reveals that one woman was 7 month pregnant, she was shot 12 times, No bomb-related injury has been found on her body: Reports
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Whatever...what are chechens doing in TSP? tourists? really? refugees? I am still having a hard time figuring that part out.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by SSridhar »

The usual Pakistani perfidy
The Interior Minister “telephoned immediately, Mr. Sharif related to the U.S. official, “and pleaded with Shahbaz for Punjab to rejoin the prosecution for a few more days. ‘Malik hoped to drag on the case several more days until after the completion of the Sharm-el-Sheikh meetings,' Shahbaz opined. ‘But what kind of government is that that plays around with a serious crime? Do they think we will not meet Manmohan Singh again?' he wondered.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Dipanker »

^
Still no excuse to shoot an unarmed pregnant woman...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by JE Menon »

>>See, the Paks are like a grenade. A grenade is not meant to be preserved and valued for an indefinite period of time. A grenade is meant to be used, sooner or later. And in the process of being used, it gets destroyed. And that's fine for those that make the grenade.

Brilliant.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^Whatever...what are chechens doing in TSP? tourists? really? refugees? I am still having a hard time figuring that part out.
After killing them you can call them Chechens or Martians or anyone. Shooting pregnant women is OK for the Iman Taqwa Jihad ul Fisabulla motto of the Pakistan army. I think it means "Kill the innocent and weak"
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vikas »

^ Did they rip open her womb and take out the 7 month old baby as Pakis normally claim that Yindoo's did during so many riots ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Narad »

6 Porkis Dronacharyed
Friday's attack was the seventh to be reported in Pakistan's tribal areas near the Afghan border since US commandos killed Osama bin Laden in a secret raid in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad on May 2
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

SSridhar wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Sridhar ji, How has Pakistan been able to sell this security paranoia to America and other western nations unless they always wanted to buy this lemon.
Vikas, the answer to your question lies in the article by Friedman, US Pakistani Relations Beyond Bin Laden that 'anmol' posted. Specifically,
The first involves the collapse of Pakistan, which would create an India more powerful than the United States might want.
From my own post of April 6,
It has been the US policy to ensure that nobody challenged it (which is not incorrect from its standpoint per se). May be they learnt a lesson from their over indulgence of the Chinese. So, the US may impose self restrictions on how far it needed to go vis-a-vis India.
The US has this mistaken notion fed by the British and their own 'experts' like Uneven Cohen and his ilk that taking Kashmir away from India will unravel the Union that is Bharat by leading to a sectarian conflict that will tear India asunder. This still Churchillian (Uk Lord Avebury type) hope.

US also has two more strings to the bow that India cut away: Punjab and Madras.

All through the 1950s US was working these two strings.

The trifurcation of East Punjab into : Punjab, Harayana and Himachal Pradesh satisfied the pre-Partiton demand of Punjabi Subha by Master Tara Singh et al.

Zia tried to revive the Khalistani string with disastrous consequences of a lost decade in Punjab.

The 1962 Chinese agression made CN Annadurai realise the perfidy of the external supporters and he categorically prevented the use of that string by ruling out any secession and joined the mainstream. He renamred Madras as Tamilnadu and thus took care of regional aspirations.

We need to recognise greatness even if its belated.

LTTE's demands in Sri Lanka were also another thread.

Now its Andhra Pradesh which is a thread if not a string.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by krithivas »

^^^
India came out stronger regardless and continues to grow stronger. Western(Christian) nations may delay the inevitable rise of India but it is beyond their power to stop that inevitability. China will have its century in the sun but only after the Indian century.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Sanju »

@Pranav
Brilliant analogy! You need to tweet that and get as many eyeballs on it as possible.
Cheers,
S
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by surinder »

Prem wrote:
ramana wrote:Now think about Badmash agreement with Najibullah recounted by MKB in the Af-Pak thread!

The modus operandi is neogtiate a truce of safe passage and murder you while you keep your part of the agreement.
Saddam Hussein promised he wont kill his own son in laws . Then he ask his cousin to kill them . This way he kept his words and still mudered the husbands of his own daughters.

Immediately post-nau gyarah, TSP also let the A'stan ambassador in I'bad to escape to A'stan. Right at the border he was arrested and then had a good vacation in a nice island in the atlantic.

This was at Amir Khani instructions, by the way.

PS: What was that thingy with Najibullah?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by CRamS »

SSridhar wrote:CRamS, Pakistan has employed two lines of reasoning with the US since the 1950s. The first was that Pakistan was a bulwark against Communism while India was likely to fall to the communists. This more or less persisted until the late 1980s.

After the Geneva Accord and the disappearance of the Soviet threat thereafter, Pakistan had to find a new reason. So, it went back to the theme that 'India was not yet reconciled to the creation of Pakistan', an old theme that was revived to justify the new jihadi-nuclear trajectory of Pakistan. The US and other western powers bought this lemon too and accepted the convoluted reasoning that Pakistan has a security paranoia vis-a-vis India. They also accepted that a stubborn and a vastly superior India refuses to address that paranoia by settling J&K issue to the satisfaction of Pakistan. Hence, Pakistan must be helped to overcome that paranoia. Multiple means are used and all of them are at the cost of India. Extensively arming Pakistan under various pretexts, bringing pressure on India, understanding the Pakistani need for using non-state actors are some of these.

Today, the world accepts the so-called non-state jihadists of Pakistan as a legitimate employment of force against India. Period.
This is what I said too after reading the Economist and other trash post OBL. I recall the racist b@#$ards on the Editorial boards of NYT, WP, Economist etc, even as recently as a few years ago would not only do an equal equal between India and TSP on terror, pigLeTs == "Hindu Extremists", they would even contemptuously mock India's claim of TSPA/ISI sponsorpship of terror as "conspiracy theories" being peddled by India. Now the slime balls know, and as you point out, their gall is astounding, they are now justifying TSP use of piglet, its almost as if India can do nothing right, India deserves no justice, and Pakis can do no wrong visa vi India.

And also as somebody else pointed out, it seems to me that the Indian narrative is completely missing. I haven't seen even one op-ed piece in a widely read western rag like NYT, WP, Economist, FT, WSJ etc, by an Indian, forcefully pushing the Indian "we told you so" line. Is it because of lack of access? And even now the audacity of the west peddling Paki paranoia, justifying it shamelessly, and then advocating India give up Kashmir as the solution to reform this rapist of nation, TSP, is breathtaking.

Man, not to sound that anything revolves around me, but I feel so f%^king helpless as I listen to NPR and other news, where this same snake oil is peddled and regurgitated by the well-paid jack asses who call themselves journalists, and there is noting I can do. Very frustrating.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ For an American audience: there is plenty of plainly evident Pakistani perfidy against the US of A, so one must simply keep repeating it to reinforce the message. Once you have won over most of the audience, then you can introduce the Indian P.O.V.. IMO, what you want to avoid the most is making the audience feel - "why are you bringing the Indo-Pak fight to us?". It should rather be - "America has a huge problem with Pakistan, that the Beltway and think-tank types are trying to sweep under the carpet. Oh, by the way, the problem is not unique to America. You bleed, we also bleed". IMO, the "you bleed, but we bled first" is counterproductive.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Lalmohan »

they really dont care if we bleed or not... if you want to get through to them, then gupta-ji is right
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

As an Indian if you tell them about pakistan then they may think it is biased. But if you join them in their conversation and keep the message it will work. Do not bring India into the discussion
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vikas »

We need sleeper cells. we need to plant our resources starting from low level in Media and strategic circles. Folks who can slowly introduce our PoV while speaking the language of the audience. No matter how much we cry or scream or die, This world of Cohens and Fair's would not care nor it should be our endeavor to change them anymore. They should be shunned and proven wrong while grooming upcoming Pro-Indic talent.
We don't have to run down everyone just because they changed their Passport to Bald eagle like it happened to FZ on one of the threads.
We have to slowly cook our message and introduce into the system. Wont happen overnight but we need to fight it out.
We need to find allies, Form alliances and stop whining about our problems all the time. They don't care or listen and some of them even don't pretend to care.
We need to win in India first before we can go out and challenge rest of the world.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A Arun »

Former American NSA Richard Clarke talks to Bill Maher about Pakistan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOTF6_v0-iA&t=5m50s
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Lalmohan »

the other thing to remember is that becoming american requires almost a formal renunciation of the previous nationality and culture (whilst keeping some elements of it), and there is a strong expectation of fitting in and being one of the average joes - little league, hot dogs, giants, etc. etc.. that compulsion is much less in the UK; so it is normal that indians who have moved to the US have to be seen to be MUTU, whilst in the UK indians can have much more of an open attitude. so the approach to sell the message has to be different to each market
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

The old Englsih saying is "Cut the cloth to fit". Modern version would be "Tailor the message to suit the reciepent!"

A_Gupta is right. Dont bring India into discussion even if you know all about TSP perfidy visavis India. That instantly dilutes your message and more importantly your credibility.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:
A_Gupta is right. Dont bring India into discussion even if you know all about TSP perfidy visavis India. That instantly dilutes your message and more importantly your credibility.
They will not stop Pak from attacking India but they will stop money going to Pakistan from US.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Acharya:Do not bring India into the discussion

Perhaps not aggressively. But Indians/PIO's should not shy away from mentioning Pakistan as an exporter of terror, and calling Pakistan an Islamic state dominated by the military, in contrast to India's democratic, secular pluralism. You should easily be able to say that India is a victim of Islamic terror from Pakistan, and India, no less than the United States or France, does not want military dominated Islamic terrorist states as neighbours.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by SriKumar »

Lalmohan wrote:the other thing to remember is that becoming american requires almost a formal renunciation of the previous nationality and culture (whilst keeping some elements of it), and there is a strong expectation of fitting in and being one of the average joes - little league, hot dogs, giants, etc. etc..;
This comment is probably within the context of the previous post on Fareed Zakaria. He is a public figure, and clearly his (high-profile) career in the media depends on how closely his ideas align with the mainstream and/or establishment. I dont think this can or should be generalized to all.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"normal that indians who have moved to the US have to be seen to be MUTU, whilst in the UK indians can have much more of an open attitude. so the approach to sell the message has to be different to each market"

I see what you are saying, but then, what about the connection between American Jews and Israel? Are Jewish Americans required to refrain from displaying any affinity toward Israel, and merely swallow everything emanating from the White House. It doesn't look that way.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Acharya:Do not bring India into the discussion

Perhaps not aggressively. But Indians/PIO's should not shy away from mentioning Pakistan as an exporter of terror, and calling Pakistan an Islamic state dominated by the military, in contrast to India's democratic, secular pluralism. You should easily be able to say that India is a victim of Islamic terror from Pakistan, and India, no less than the United States or France, does not want military dominated Islamic terrorist states as neighbours.
They know about this.
But they believe that that they are protecting Pakistan.

Bill Mahar interview of Richard Clarke is first of the few people who says that Pakistan created Taliban against India in Afghanistan. Pakis are liars and they are using the $20B to build nuke bombs.
When an American state official like Richard talks to the Americans then they will listen.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
I see what you are saying, but then, what about the connection between American Jews and Israel? Are Jewish Americans required to refrain from displaying any affinity toward Israel, and merely swallow everything emanating from the White House. It doesn't look that way.
Indians are still working to get accepted in the mainstream. This is a long process and Americans have a different plan on India and some of them say that 1947 is not the final independence of India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by SriKumar »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"normal that indians who have moved to the US have to be seen to be MUTU, whilst in the UK indians can have much more of an open attitude. so the approach to sell the message has to be different to each market"

I see what you are saying, but then, what about the connection between American Jews and Israel? Are Jewish Americans required to refrain from displaying any affinity toward Israel, and merely swallow everything emanating from the White House. It doesn't look that way.
Exactly. People can hold and vocalize their opinions, as long as they are able to back it up with some thought and facts. Another thing: there is no question of any prejudiced affinity here when talking about terrorism in Pakistan. The facts are clear and available in boatloads. One could easily argue that it is to everyone's benefit, irrespective of nationality, if people become aware of the real state of affairs in that part of the world.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

Acharya wrote: They will not stop Pak from attacking India but they will stop money going to Pakistan from US.
Money will still go to TSP from US. But by getting educated and informed there will be strings on TSP to act on the terrorists and that will set off its own dynamite in TSP.

Varoon Sekhar, India;s case is strong. It needs no advocacy. In fact by letting the US force the TSP to act on its own terrorists it will serve Indian interests. Do not dilute that force by bringing in India. the minute obne brings India they glaze over and do mental ==.

Have observed this over 30 years in US experts to laymen all have the same conditoned response.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=09STATE65183
Wikileaks
09STATE65183
SUBJECT USG CONCERNED ABOUT POSSIBLE LASHKAR E-TAIBA
DATE 2009-06-23 22:03:00
(C/REL Pakistan) Embassy is instructed to underscore to senior Pakistani government officials the critical importance of Pakistani cooperation in preventing Lashkar e-Tayyiba (LeT) attacks on India. There are credible reports of advanced LeT planning for attacks against India. An attack at this time {DATE 2009-06-23 22:03:00} -- especially from Pakistani territory -- would undermine progress for regional cooperation, divert resources from the military campaign in the west, and could hinder the USG's ability to provide Pakistan with military and economic assistance without restrictive conditions. The Embassy should also impress upon the GOP that Pakistan must implement and support UN Security Council designations of LeT-related entities as part of the GOP,s effort to disrupt and prevent further LeT attacks.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:
They will not stop Pak from attacking India but they will stop money going to Pakistan from US.

Money will still go to TSP from US. But by getting educated and informed there will be strings on TSP to act on the terrorists and that will set off its own dynamite in TSP.
They will now attach results and verification for the money going to TSP. This is not a clear thing yet but money will not stop completely.
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