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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 01:20
by rgosain
I suppose one the merits from the DK affair is that the entire trafficking agenda, aimed at India, peddled by the NGOs, SD and prosecuted by PB now lies exposed as farce and discredited.
See KP Nayar's piece
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140111/j ... uqwh_l_tM4
It now means that any junior SD diplomat who wants to talk about human rights and trafficking should be reminded of this episode. And he only way to ensure that remained true would be to insist on strict reciprocity, and a closure of the NGO who are funded via the SD.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 01:20
by saip
There is more perfidy committed by US govt's Immigration Dept, in Signal case against Indian workers.
Immigration authorities worked closely with a marine oil-rig company in Mississippi to discourage protests by temporary guest workers from India over their job conditions, including advising managers to send some workers back to India, according to new testimony in a federal lawsuit against the company, Signal International.
Mr. Schnoor said the “direction” he received from an immigration enforcement agent was this: “Don’t give them any advance notice. Take them all out of the line on the way to work; get their personal belongings; get them in a van, and get their tickets, and get them to the airport, and send them back to India.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02immig.html
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 01:21
by Shreeman
In case wants a nutcase to cite/criticize: the press is dead, dead-er than the rocks I used to light my heavenly fire. social media is worse for it leaves no trace, has no real responsibilities, and consists of more immature teenagers than any loins have produced with the hard work of all the fine arabian neighborhood. The only solution is a consistent message. It may not get visibility, it may not get press, but if adhered to it will serve its purpose --your friendly neighborhood loony.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 01:24
by rgosain
Lilo: How does Google operate within the PRC with regards to the siting of the servers and the storage of the data that is collected.
And Is there also an oversight body that monitors this compliance. I am using google as an example, but I suppose the same will apply to FB, Twitter and the rest.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 02:19
by Lilo
Rgosain ji,
I don't know , but as google and other massa based online services like FB,Twitter have their fullfledged and immensely popular Chinese equivalents , I don't think the siteing of servers (of western tech gaints) matters much in over all scheme of controlling China's public opinion.
But one can definitely expect the Chinese to insist that all the major Western services accessible to Chinese netizens through their Govts firewall, have their servers to be physically located in China and all sorts of other conditions for tracking internal communications .
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 02:41
by UlanBatori
deleted
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 04:04
by Vayutuvan
prasannasimha wrote:The law is interpreted that if the Parents are USAite or if born in USA thye can claim US citizenship and are eligible for US POTUS position. Obama was born in Hawaii and his Mother was a natural born American.
Okiedoke. I was misinformed. Posed this question when I visited one of the US Consulates in India. And the answer I got was what I said. Hawaii is porperly part of US so there is no doubt of President Obama's eligibility. Not sure about Guam but as far as Peurto Rico goes, they cannot vote in US elections unless they satisfy the residency requirements for 5 years continuously in the United States (the 50 states). All OT so last from me.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 04:23
by Vayutuvan
Lilo wrote:Some times I think the "potential" of this huge vocalized anglophone mass is the reason for Indians getting barraged by psyops day in and day out by internal collaborators in Paid media and their masters abroad on a scale totally different to any other Nationality in the world...
Lilo: Very good analysis and a bulls eye - especially the above. Google has unpublished their ranking algorithm though the older algorithm is on Wikipedia. More details can be found in scholarly journals. That said, now that they have the brand equity, the ad $$s would flow in as before or even growing at a healthy clip even after their algorithm has become opaque. In fact, they might as well just ride the others' (NYT, WaPo, WSJ, e-con-o-mist brand equities and just rank others is some halfhearted fashion. They might be doing it as we speak and nobody is wiser. Propaganda it is.
The only way to correct such an asymmetry is to have India's own Google clone(s) (a la baidu) not only in Angrez but also in other national and major languages.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 04:26
by shiv
TSJones wrote:
Well, I really think this is about Mrs. Richard not wanting to step into Khobragade family power play back in India. Khobragades weren't doing Mrs. Richard any favor by offering a ticket back to India.
Oh that is absolutely correct. What was unusual about the case was the fact that Khobragade had even refused the simple demands made by Sangeeta Richard like being allowed to work outside of her contract. If you recall American history, all slaves had contracts that they had signed voluntarily before embarking on ships to America, just like Richard. I am certain their masters frequently allowed those contracts to be broken so that the slaves could work outside of the contract. Unlike what slave driver Khobragade did.
Even more remarkably in this case of Indian slavery American Diplomats in India, good Americans who were hiding their goodness behind a facade of racism felt that this one instance of slavery was so important that they must buy tickets to America for the family of Mrs Richards after getting them special American visas.
For the great American nation, roused by the pathetic treatment of Mrs Richard, no step was too strong to take in the protection of this cruelly enslaved woman. Some of the best known attorneys in America were involved in punishing her slaver. America's sense of justice is so admirable.
Most remarkably - the US did a U turn and let the slaver go home. Why did they do that? Were they doing Richard a favor when they let Khobragade go home? What was all that about justice if the powerful are simply let off?
To me - it looks like utter hypocrisy.You attempts at defending it is touching, but funny. But to my mind, your opinion is justifiable - and at any rate you are not the person I am concerned about in this case. You are simply a bystander with an opinion who gives me repeated opportunities to state things that need to be stated for others to read.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 04:38
by Hari Seldon
UlanBatori wrote:since I am a newbie onlee, could some kind person pls post the expansion of MUTU? I am too lazy to go search for the Lexicon thread.
MUTU == More Unkil Than Unkil (IIRC).
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 04:50
by member_28434
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/as ... ment-.html
Does anyone know anything about this case? Is Al Arabiya reliable?
I get the feeling that some of these stories are being made up to demonize Indian culture, or they are being exaggerated.
Or, they could be the copy-cat effect from the publicity generated around the rape issue.
In this respect, the Delhi police claimed that the Danish woman who said she was raped showed no physical evidence of such a trauma.
By the way, I am introducing this topic here, because it ties into the "anti-trafficking" campaign's agenda to paint Indian culture as a demonic one that rapes and enslaves women.
The campaign is also a clever way to distract from the fate of women in countries subjected to bombing by the enlightened ones of the "international community."
Also, the campaign fits the "white men saving brown women from brown men" strategy used in advance of the Iraq war.
This piece seems to suspect something similar.
http://www.amerika.org/politics/western ... -feminism/
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 05:45
by saip
Unfortunately it appears to be true and there were lot of arrests in this case.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 06:28
by UlanBatori
I KNEW it! Dem furriners ain't fair and just and smart like we are.
**** lashed out at an "overzealous and intransigent prosecution, prejudiced and narrow-minded investigation, unwillingness to admit mistake (and) reliance on unreliable testimony and evidence".
She also accused prosecutors of "character assassination, inconsistent and unfounded accusatory theory, and counterproductive and coercive interrogation techniques that produce false confessions and inaccurate statements.
Would NEVER happen in the good ol' US of A. Esp. Manhattan!
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 06:34
by shiv
UlanBatori wrote:since I am a newbie onlee, could some kind person pls post the expansion of MUTU? I am too lazy to go search for the Lexicon thread.
MUTU: More US than US
MATA = MUTU = More American Than Americans
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 07:33
by Amber G.
While there were a few (about 3 can be counted) people protesting "Stand with Sangeeta" Indian Ambassador spoke at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Here is the video :
http://carnegieendowment.org/2014/01/29 ... tions/gyqd
About an hour long but you can skip to the part you want etc ..
TSJ and others, some questions of the type you and I asked were asked in the discussion. People people may find that interesting. (You can skip to discussion part).
Interesting Q from Neha somebody (Indian American Lawyer) and Jaishankar's A.
Overall I am quite impressed with Amb. Jaishankar, considering he just got here a month ago.
The text part is can be seen here too:
https://www.indianembassy.org/press_detail.php?nid=1998
There are quite a few news stories out too. eg:
Jaishankar dispels bilateral "problem of sentiment"
Khobragade redux at Indian Ambassador’s first public address
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 07:40
by SanjayC
saip wrote:Unfortunately it appears to be true and there were lot of arrests in this case.
I suspect a deliberate campaign by the goras. Too many coincidences. Their rape complaints started after the Nirbhaya case, not earlier. Almost every month, some Gora lady claims being raped and quickly leaves the country without giving police a chance to investigate. Some of these write letters to Indian channels after reaching home abroad. This is followed by reams of racist articles in Gora press about Indian culture. Goras valiantly try to free Indian women being trafficked into slavery (Sangeet Richards). The sudden rise in number of T visas being granted to Indian women. Suspicious allegations of sexual harassment against judges (two years after the alleged act!). You get the pattern.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 07:42
by vic
WHY have the brilliant analysts of BRF missed an IMPORTANT point:- Maid never filed either a Civil Case or a Criminal Case against Devyani. Why did the Maid not file a Civil and Criminal case against either Devyani or HER HUSBAND to extract 5-10 Million dollars from the Wine Philosopher family who legally speaking was part of conspiracy to allegedly use, abuse, intimidate the Lilly white innocent maid?
There was no need for high level US conspiracy, it is an illegal and high handed behavior of some mid level US Embassy and State Department officials to show who is the Daddy to IFS as they already have Our NSA, Munna and ex-Ambassador as their poodles.
Devyani was publicly Gang Raped and taped to show to the IFS, who is the boss! Till date GoI has done NOTHING, it is only the IFS who is on letter writing spree.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 08:00
by shiv
One of the enduring stories about the US that has been doing the rounds in India is like the "Dick Whittington" tale - that US streets are paved with gold and going to the US is a sure fire path to wealth. This story is pervasive and is also encouraged both by the US itself and Indian immgrants to the US so it is worth looking at what happens to immigrants who go to the US.
Naturally if immigration to th US leads to automatic wealth, then every effort must be made to send poor people to America to give them freedom from the bondage and poverty that pervades their lives in India. If, on the other hand the story of immigration to the US is one of hardship, then Indians must be discouraged from trying to get to the US.
Looking at immigration versus poverty figures in the US one finds that 2 of 3 black or hispanic immigrants to the US is poor. But only one in 6 or 7 Indian immigrants is poor. This makes it appear that Indians must do their best to get to America because about 85% will not be poor.
However, if you look at literacy, you find that it is highly literate Indians who are doing well in America. Fact is highly literate Indians do well in India as well and a very large percentage are able to shift successfully from India to US or US to India. The Indians who do well in the US and sing the prises of the US in India while being critical of India are largely MATAs who bash India with the same stick that assorted NGOs, evangelical groups and humans rights groups bash India with, ignoring the fact that it was an education in India that primarily enabled first generation Indian immigrants to succeed in the US n the first place. It is the illiterate immigrants who remain poor in the US.
If you are illiterate in India, and America decides to take you in, you are likely to remain poor and your voice will not be heard in your country of origin. If you are literate or highly educated to start with, America will take you and you will likely succeed and your voice will be heard as a success story in your country of origin.
The rush to go to America is driven by a carefully nurtured reputation that America is all success, all wealth. The caveats to such success need to be documented by examining stories where the immigrant Indian did not succeed.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 08:13
by Amber G.
Interesting quote from Jaishankar's speech.. (link given in previous post)
Why then is there a problem of sentiment? The fact is that to a considerable degree, we are victims of our own success. The India-US relationship arrived - some would say, at last - and by doing so, ended the romance of the phase of courtship. The change is visible in the less integrated approach we take, leaving each department or agency to handle its counterpart. That no longer allows the luxury of cutting some slack on an account that matters, expecting to make up elsewhere. The willingness to take risks also decreases as there is no longer a great cause to pursue. And grand strategy, once achieved, quickly changes from rocket science to a no-brainer! As we settle into the partnership, it takes a different mindset to address the less exciting chores of maintenance, upkeep and progress. The danger here is that individual problems that may well have been dismissed in the earlier era can now dominate the narrative.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 08:20
by Amber G.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 08:43
by UlanBatori
Wonder if there are precedents of US diplomats/officials being convicted of scams done against other countries/diplomats from other countries. You know, like Fernand in The Count of Monte Cristo who became rich through treachery against the ruler of the place where he was a French Diplomat. I know there are plenty of charges against INS/CIS officials and a few convictions, but those are against ppl seeking immigration. I remember one where the guy had clearly been watching "Casablanca" too many times...
This whole thing smells too much of a scam done "for a few dollars more", and certainly not for the foreign "houri". The trouble with our approach here is that we read into it all sorts of things like "US attitude towards India". Look at it from the AMERICAN pov, i.e., that of a mugger in Central Park. Its not about International Strategy, it's all about Easy Marks, etc.
I doubt if they would go after, say, the Consulate of the Islamic Republic of Somalia, or that of the Central African Republic alleging "maid abuse".
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 10:01
by Shankk
Nothing to do with DK saga. A view about immigration into US. Sorry if already posted.
Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs - Updated 2010
We are accepting only the brightest from these countries and denying those very countries the people they need to change their dire situation.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 10:17
by ramana
We need to look from many angles. The Chid Rajghatta article explanation of low level minions is too facile for it does not fit all the facts.
UB Good memory of Fernand perfidy in Count of Monte Cristo!
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 10:31
by chetak
Retaliation??
FAA Downgrade May Hurt Air India, Jet Airways Alliances
Jan. 14--NEW DELHI -- India's two biggest airlines, state-run Air India Ltd and Jet Airways (India) Ltd, could be worse hit than previously thought and may lose their code-sharing privilege on US routes if the US aviation regulator downgrades India's air safety ranking over the coming fortnight.
The airlines will have to snap ties with American counterparts -- a move that may have an impact on Air India's entry into the prestigious Star Alliance and Jet Airways' plan to integrate its network with that of Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways PJSC, which has bought a stake in it.
As known earlier, Air India and Jet Airways would be barred from increasing flights to the US if the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) downgrades India's air safety ranking to so-called Category II. The FAA in December inspected the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) to determine if it had taken action to correct 33 deficiencies that came to light in a September audit.
The two airlines' existing flights would also be subjected to additional checks at American airports.
Air India announced last year that it would be joining Star Alliance, the biggest club of world airlines. Jet, which sold a 24% stake to Etihad Airways for $379 million, plans to align its network with that of Etihad, especially for passenger traffic to the US and Europe.
While a downgrade, if at all it happens, does not reflect on the safety of India's airlines -- the rankings measure the ability of the Indian regulator to follow safety procedures and not that of the airlines -- India risks being perceived in a negative light.
A Category II safety rating means the civil aviation authority does not comply with International Civil Aviation Organization standards and is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel and record-keeping or inspection procedures, according to FAA.
India warns US over FAA safety downgrade
New Delhi: India has warned the US to expect retaliation if the US aviation regulator, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), downgrades the country’s air safety rankings. Retaliatory action could include a year’s embargo on the delivery of Boeing Co.’s 787 Dreamliner aircraft to Air India Ltd.
The FAA has decided to inspect India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) in December again for compliance with corrective measures on 33 deficiencies that came to light in a September audit of the Indian regulator.
It could possibly downgrade India’s safety rankings to category II from category I after the audit. A category II safety rating means the civil aviation authority does not comply with International Civil Aviation Organization standards and is deficient in one or more areas, such as technical expertise, trained personnel and record-keeping or inspection procedures, according to FAA.
Indian airlines won’t be able to increase flights to the US and additional checks will be imposed on existing flights of Air India and Jet Airways (India) Ltd if a downgrades takes place. It may also hurt airlines like Singapore Airlines Ltd and AirAsia Bhd that have proposed joint ventures with Tata Sons Ltd and may want to fly to the US.
The matter escalated between the two sides over the past one month. An Indian delegation led by aviation minister Ajit Singh, which was in Washington for the fourth India-US Aviation Summit in Washington on 30 October, was given indications during meetings with US officials that a downgrade can’t be ruled out, according to two government officials who declined to be named.
“There will be an equal and befitting response which will include a one-year ban on delivery of any new Boeing’s Dreamliners for Air India,” said one of the two officials.
A downgrade of India’s air safety rankings will mean that Boeing, General Electric Co., maker of the engines that power the Dreamliner, and Honeywell International Inc., which manufactures other components that go into the jet plane, and “others will all suffer,” this official said.
“It has been communicated to them informally,” the official said.
An email sent to Boeing on Sunday remained unanswered.
A spokeswoman for FAA declined to comment on whether it has communicated with India on a possible downgrade through diplomatic channels. On Thursday, the spokeswoman had said, “The only thing I can confirm is that the FAA is continuing consultations with the civil aviation authority of India.”
Boeing has a $6 billion order from Air India for 27 Dreamliners of which less than a dozen have been delivered to the state-owned airline.
Only 14 of the 27 aircraft have been cleared by the government to be inducted into Air India so far as part of a turnaround plan for the airline in which the government is infusing nearly $6 billion. A decision on the induction of the remaining 13 Dreamliners is expected to be taken in 2014 by the government.
To be sure, the threatened embargo on the delivery of the remaining planes may not come to pass.
Still, in a signal of the seriousness with which the situation is being viewed, the Prime Minister’s Office intervened in the matter last week. The Prime Minister’s principal secretary Pulok Chatterji, foreign secretary Sujatha Singh,aviation secretary K.N. Srivastava and other top civil servants held a review meeting to sort out the issue.
The threat of a downgrade of India’s air safety rankings is imminent, Mint first reported on 15 November, citing a government official who didn’t want to be named.
While a downgrade does not reflect on the safety of India’s airlines—the rankings measure the ability of the Indian regulator to follow safety processes and not that of the airlines—India risks being perceived in a negative light. It could also hurt business sentiment.
India is expected to be the third-largest aviation market by 2020, handling 336 million domestic and 85 million international passengers with projected investment to the tune of $120 billion by 2020, aviation minister Singh said at the Washington summit.
The problem lies in the current government trying to do a cosmetic job on DGCA deficiencies so that the status quo can remain until a new government takes office after general elections due by May next year, a person with knowledge of the matter said. He isn’t one of the two officials cited above.
“They have been told by FAA through diplomatic channels that this time they will not be able to hold back,” this person said, also on condition of anonymity.
The FAA downgraded the safety ranking of strong US allies like Mexico in 2010 and Israel in 2008.
The PMO meeting discussed steps to convince the FAA audit team when it arrives in the second week of December that India is serious about making changes, said the official cited in the first instance.
Among the many steps taken, said the first government official, was a decision to allow the DGCA to hire commanders (senior pilots) for airlines safety audits directly and pay them market salaries, which can be nearly as much as Rs.10 lakh per month.
DGCA has been so far bound to pay government-mandated salaries, which are way below industry average. The regulator has, therefore, been forced to take on flight operations inspectors from Air India and private airlines. And in contravention of its own rules, these inspectors also serve in management positions in their airlines.
Since the inspectors are those who audit airlines, they cannot be expected to be objective, analysts say. This conflict of interest is another major issue flagged by FAA, Mint reported on 15 November.
Another key flaw the FAA has pointed out in its report is that India does not have a trained examiner for the Boeing 787 Dreamliners, said the second government official.
India is likely to tell the US that there are no trained examiners for Dreamliners outside the US since it is a new aircraft. India will demand that Boeing station such examiners in India immediately.
“If not, they can keep the rest of the Dreamliners in Seattle (Boeing headquarters) itself. We don’t need any of them,” the second government official said. “If we can’t fly to US, then American airlines will also not be able to expand into India.”
Jet Airways’ former chief executive Steve Forte, who is based in New York, said both sides need to cool down the situation. “A win-win amicable solution would be much more desirable. How to achieve it? DGCA should show the willingness to work together with the FAA to resolve all issues and to accept their recommendations as long as they are factual and have a purpose,” he said. “It is important for the DGCA to negotiate a reasonable timetable to get the work done after this next audit and before the following. DGCA and FAA should cooperate together to publish a timeline with specific goals and dates to be met.”
India has cleared a proposal for the formation of a new, more autonomous regulator, the Civil Aviation Authority. The decision has since been sent to a parliamentary committee for further review.
“The FAA has to understand the difficulties in the dealings and struggles within the Indian government that may be hampering the work of the DGCA (such as lack of a sufficient workforce), but in the final analysis the FAA cannot afford to be lax on rules that concern the safety of passengers, crews and aircraft,” Forte said. “Their assessment (and the DGCA’s) has to do with lives and equipment, and not politics.”
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 12:38
by Suraj
No, the FAA downgrade matter has been going on for several months. Before that, the JAA got into the same tussle with DGCA and there was a tussle with the Japanese as a result. This is primarily the DGCA's doing. When the Government stops running properly, ministries start dropping the ball, and those who have a very small margin of error will be in trouble faster.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 13:28
by Lalmohan
so... wondering if italy will pursue the extradition of amanda knox (from the US) after her prison sentence was reinstated (after the previous annulment of her conviction for the murder of a british* girl in italy) - and if so, will the US allow the extradition? And where will that leave the two Italian marines facing a murder charge in India?
* incidentally, the victim - meredith kercher, also has some indian ancestory
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 15:08
by Sravan
shiv wrote:One of the enduring stories about the US that has been doing the rounds in India is like the "Dick Whittington" tale - that US streets are paved with gold and going to the US is a sure fire path to wealth. This story is pervasive and is also encouraged both by the US itself and Indian immgrants to the US so it is worth looking at what happens to immigrants who go to the US.
Naturally if immigration to th US leads to automatic wealth, then every effort must be made to send poor people to America to give them freedom from the bondage and poverty that pervades their lives in India. If, on the other hand the story of immigration to the US is one of hardship, then Indians must be discouraged from trying to get to the US.
Looking at immigration versus poverty figures in the US one finds that 2 of 3 black or hispanic immigrants to the US is poor. But only one in 6 or 7 Indian immigrants is poor. This makes it appear that Indians must do their best to get to America because about 85% will not be poor.
However, if you look at literacy, you find that it is highly literate Indians who are doing well in America. Fact is highly literate Indians do well in India as well and a very large percentage are able to shift successfully from India to US or US to India. The Indians who do well in the US and sing the prises of the US in India while being critical of India are largely MATAs who bash India with the same stick that assorted NGOs, evangelical groups and humans rights groups bash India with, ignoring the fact that it was an education in India that primarily enabled first generation Indian immigrants to succeed in the US n the first place. It is the illiterate immigrants who remain poor in the US.
If you are illiterate in India, and America decides to take you in, you are likely to remain poor and your voice will not be heard in your country of origin. If you are literate or highly educated to start with, America will take you and you will likely succeed and your voice will be heard as a success story in your country of origin.
The rush to go to America is driven by a carefully nurtured reputation that America is all success, all wealth. The caveats to such success need to be documented by examining stories where the immigrant Indian did not succeed.
Shiv,
Although I agree with most of your posts, there is a stark difference in government aptitude and efficiency when you compare India and US success rates. The efficiency with which work gets done for a highly skilled individual is stupendous in the United States. You are rewarded purely on merit and there is no shota bada admi attitude.
As a entrepreneur living off unemployment insurance, I have no trouble getting meetings with CEOs or filing grants to the National Science Foundation.
I have tried similar efforts in India and it is all about your political pull, bribing or strong arming the government to get your way. The US is in a whole another league when it comes to rewarding knowledge driven merit based ideas. This trend started after the German scientists were poached after World War II.
India on the other hand has failed me miserably numerous times. I can cite many personal examples, however I believe you should take into consideration, the point I bring up. I speak from personal experience, and I believe there is not much recourse other than the RTI act in India.
Simple things like registering a company, or setting up a payment gateway take months wherein it is processed in hours in the United States.
Your point about people leaving the Indian market is not because the US is paved with gold, but it is currently the path of least resistance. Your efforts are augmented and supported by a huge support ecosystem. From deferred legal fees, to the small business government grants to the VC investment that nurtures and stimulates entrepreneurial activity.
India on the other hand has made every single task impossibly hard for me to kick off my ventures there. I have applied for a PAN card, and it's taking over 2 months to get it right.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 16:28
by UlanBatori
High time SOMEONE informed the DGCA about the sheer quality of their operation. Ironically, the FAA is about the most bureaucratic, glacial organization in the US, perhaps second only to FEMA in that, and even beating CIS/DHS. Successive Republican administrations and COTUS have trashed all credibility of FAA's inspection programs, and made life Pakistan for any honest inspectors. They don't act against airlines that REPEATEDLY, every winter, end up imprisoning planeloads of passengers on the taxiway for 8 or 10 hous at a time.
But airline operations in India ARE absolutely scary, both when you read about the antics, and when you see their operation in person. One just remembers that even PIA manages to not crash too often, and comforts oneself. FAA is traditionally mandated to do this strange thing called
PLAN AND ACT AHEAD OF DISASTER. This is totally alien to GOI, as seen in
all the issues that we discuss here. GOI should declare Sister Guvrmand hood with, say, the Guvrmands of
other turd world places and
Scamistans
As for declaring that it's only DGCA, while airlines in India are sooo competent and safety-conscious and customer-focused, Alla* save us all! The ppl they have "manning" the check in counters any more at Air India, even for international flights, are just completely inexperienced, and have no training or comprehension. Baggage rules are arbitrary and the airline employees certainly don't know them. The goons managing their "baggage" would put Rwanda to shame. Calling "customer service", well.. ha ha! even for those of us long-suffering "customers" of US airline customer service. If you look out on the wings or at the engines, you can see the quality of maintenance, no problem at all. The soot-covered exhausts, the grimy wings... one just tries not to think of what the electrical wiring looks like inside, going by the quality of work displayed hanging all over the airport terminal. When CIAL was first being considered, the IAS Aphsars went to Bilayat, Singapore etc, and came back with feelings hurt:
They told us, you guys don't even know how to design a Pakistan!
I had to agree with that.. they still don't.
Read about the incident recently, where an Air India (domestic) aircraft went off the runway at Jammu. The explanation was:
Thrust reberjer failed onlee. It failed at Srinagar, but we are allowed to fly if only one thrust reberjer eej kaput
Can you believe that? Two-engined aircraft, slick, short winter runways at high altitudes, and they expect to land with the thrust going forward on one side and backwards on the other!!! And DGCA is fine with THAT! So, apparently, is airline management. And the control tower. And the PILOT, who is the ultimate authority on whether the plane should take off!! Remember the Mangalore Air India Express crash? I said right then that they probably had thrust reverser failure on one side.
In this case perhaps one should thank the FAA. Because, as they teach in basic pilot school:
It is better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here
Both are better than hearing that your loved ones are scattered in charred parts over some field.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 16:38
by shiv
Sravan wrote:
Shiv,
Although I agree with most of your posts, there is a stark difference in government aptitude and efficiency when you compare India and US success rates. The efficiency with which work gets done for a highly skilled individual is stupendous in the United States. You are rewarded purely on merit and there is no shota bada admi attitude.
As a entrepreneur living off unemployment insurance, I have no trouble getting meetings with CEOs or filing grants to the National Science Foundation.
I have tried similar efforts in India and it is all about your political pull, bribing or strong arming the government to get your way. The US is in a whole another league when it comes to rewarding knowledge driven merit based ideas. This trend started after the German scientists were poached after World War II.
India on the other hand has failed me miserably numerous times. I can cite many personal examples, however I believe you should take into consideration, the point I bring up. I speak from personal experience, and I believe there is not much recourse other than the RTI act in India.
Simple things like registering a company, or setting up a payment gateway take months wherein it is processed in hours in the United States.
Your point about people leaving the Indian market is not because the US is paved with gold, but it is currently the path of least resistance. Your efforts are augmented and supported by a huge support ecosystem. From deferred legal fees, to the small business government grants to the VC investment that nurtures and stimulates entrepreneurial activity.
India on the other hand has made every single task impossibly hard for me to kick off my ventures there. I have applied for a PAN card, and it's taking over 2 months to get it right.
None of what you say contradicts anything I have said.
The US is the path of least resistance for some people. There are others for whom the resistance is lower in India - you may not have lived that life. India produces about 750,000 engineers a year. Not all are equally competent. And not all are going to get employed in India. But then again not all are going to get to the US either - so the idea that the US is "the path of least resistance" might have been true in your life, but is not true for many others.
For my generation (people who went to the US 30 to 35 years ago) it was easy to shine and actually do an MS in the US along with an assistantship that helped you pay your way through. I know that about 10 years ago students going to the US by and large had to produce bank guarantees of Rs 25 lakh or more as evidence of the means to get past at least one semester. It is probably higher now and I know that the urge to send their kids to the US among some colleagues of mine is satisfied in wealthy families by selling property and in others by taking some big loans and cringing everytime the Rupee falls. So the path of least resistance is paved with debts for many, and is unaffordable for many others.
Someone posted a video link in what it was claimed that the US took away the best brains of many countries - possibly India as well. India produces more brains than the US can absorb. While competent people do go to the US, I know of competent people who remain behind in India as well as incompetents who get to the US. I know many people in both categories,
Among doctors, the US has a very efficient system of slotting in the less competent and less accomplished (but imported) doctors into a system that allows them to work to their level of competence while making them wealthy. But many are simply not anywhere near the degree of smartness and skill of others who never went to the US. The US takes in reasonably smart educated Indians whose early education has been paid for in India by parents and Indian government) and retrains them to fit into a slot in the US. They are then made to believe that they are both the smartest and the best. That is one of the US's "efficiencies".
Some wealthy Indian in some professions do not need to go to the US at all except for sightseeing. There is a subset of Indians who are smart and not all that wealthy for whom going to the US is a good career gamble. There is a third set of Indian who opt out because either they believe the US has nothing to offer them or the price they have to pay to get to the US makes it a path of high resistance.
Despite this the US has a reputation that is far greater than the degree by which it makes a difference to millions of Indians. At least some of them are misguided and the lose out. They need to be told the other side of the story as well. Particularly the fact that the US selectively takes educated Indians - and their success stories attract the illiterate Richards of India and make them prime targets for US perfidy.
The life experiences of starry eyed Indians who go to the US and then suffer from issues that ultimately boil down to race or who suffer other negative consequences also needs to be heard and told before Indians can understand the US. For too long only the success stories have received attention as if the US==success and wealth and happiness for everyone who goes there.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 16:49
by Shreeman
shiv wrote:Sravan wrote:
Shiv,
Although I agree with most of your posts, there is a stark difference in government aptitude and efficiency
.....
May I please be let out to see sunlight again for a while?
Sravan's post presents a view of US industry and R&D no different than the defence of hyuuman rights front seen elsewhere.
And Sravan would greatly benefit from the positive news if he is just miguided and not intentionally eulogizing.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 16:59
by Shreeman
UlanBatori wrote:
.....
Aj UB sayj.
Continuing my bad habit of being in the wrong place resulted in 4-point restraint for extended duration in something small. The world events do not revolve around one issue. DGCA etc is best edited out of this debate.
Not rojes anywhere anymore, but you dont want large objects over-running and ending in ravines on regular basis.
I will see myself out of this one, but not the sravan bit until until tugged by the
nakel back to the cave.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 17:23
by Hitesh
TSJones wrote:Hitesh wrote:
In that case, why would Snowden want to go back to US and face trumped up charges arranged by NSA et al?
For abusing his passport?
SR did much more than that. She tried to blackmail/extort MEA and DK. That is a felony by itself anywhere and not a trumped up charge. If you claim that SR was merely trying to get better wages or whatever crap she was doing, etc. and DK was trying to silence her, then a similar argument can be made for Snowden. He was trying to expose illegal practices and crimes being committed by NSA and NSA was trying to silence him.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 17:35
by UlanBatori
What Sravan says is accurate. The US has a system developed through more than 200 years of internal peace and stability (except for a nice interlude 1861-65 which resulted in the former maid system being Gone With Da Hawa), and several external wars requiring massive mobilization and millions of human sacrifices, millions more in severe wounds, to keep the war external. It is a constant struggle in India to keep the Entropy Increase from wiping out the small, hard-won gains, but the results are positive, as anyone visiting at intervals over, say, 35 years, can see. The trouble, as everywhere, is that today's generation sees the best of today as something they can take for granted, and the rest as things that are atrocious. They are naive on the former, and I bless their impatience on the latter, we need much more of that impatience to keep driving upstream against the flood of entropy.
My take on government systems in India is that the government (meaning top Babus) do try very hard to bring the best in the world to the aam aadmi. But every time they set up something, the turd-world tendencies try their best to swamp the efforts. It is like reading the kitab "CONGO" by Michael Bin Crichton - a fabulous, advanced civilization and city built up by good people, but quickly taken over and overpopulated by violent apes. So it is natural that external entities will try to both rob the riches, and shoot at the apes - and everyone else. Unfortunately when that happens, it is not the chalta hai folks, and certainly not the apes, who stand up and must fight, it is the people who care about the positive building.
So sravan, more power to you, but don't give up. Beat the cr*p out of the lazy, corrupt babucrats, but realize that The System actually is 100% in support of you.
But none of that says that "we" on either side of the Duniya, should stand by and tolerate the crooked scams perpetrated by crooks on either side. If we don't act, who will?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 17:42
by chetak
As expected onlee.
kudos to the mms gang, clueless greedy ajit singh in particular
US FAA downgrades India’s aviation safety ranking
New Delhi: The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has downgraded India's aviation safety ranking, which means Indian carriers cannot increase flights to the United States and face additional checks for existing flights, the Mint newspaper reported, citing the Indian aviation regulator.
The FAA has downgraded India to Category 2 from Category 1, Prabhat Kumar, India's director general of civil aviation, was quoted by the paper as saying. Jet Airways and state-run Air India operate flights from India to the United States. Kumar could not be reached for comment.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 18:08
by Shreeman
UlanBatori wrote:What Sravan says is accurate.
No it is not. Was, no longer is. Has not been for 10 years.
Sravan says: It works for me.
I say: healthcare.gov (yes, wrong place etc, again!)
Sravan says: PAN card...
I say : quality of service, for comparable cost. spend $4 in India instead of Rs 1/60 and see. not a corruption problem there. some safeguards are needed. dont wear dhoti in atlanta (you know rome/romans/...))
Sravan says: NSF SBIR, CEO....
I say: peanuts, and no contest even in peanuts. wear a helmet before pricing a cake in the US. UB - can defend this. By comparison, research/development money is coming out of every orifice in every other country including india via regular methods and much faster. Read a SBIR grant in the US? Most are not worth wiping a puppy's behind. And that after trying to use slave graduate student labor. Scam is the right word. (there is the wrong place, again)
Compare with Denmark and I will be quiet. Use the vocabulary in previous posts for US vs. something and its blind evangelism. There was a 200 year period, it ended last decade.
Most always the problem in dealing with India is 1=1 translation of expectations without wanting to accomodate the unfavorable 1:3 population and involved inerests ratio. You will meet 9x hurdles (the rest from geography). Expect and deal with them, success should not be handed on a plattter of loans and deals and access. That is what ended the 200 year period.
An example does not make a theory either way. No use glorifying or putting down either side.
Rest of UBs post is on target, on either side or for anywhere else. India really was trying to shine when the slogan was coined. Another 50 years should take care of it even given the hiccups.
------
ot -- What is with the snow bujiness, just a bad mayor or worse?
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 18:18
by Rony
Microsoft is getting ready to name Satya Nadella as its next CEO, but has yet to confirm.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 18:47
by UlanBatori
Perfect ishtorm - oph Pakistan-like competence onlee. E-diots sat around with E-Mergenzee Response Planning Teams at Guvrnor's level, Mayor's level, Institushun level, Bijnej level. The previous din.
Then they went to sleep. Boys Who Stood on Slippery Deck waited as long as they could, then drove in to work at 6:30AM as always needed.
On the morning in question, the oiseules did not have their Emergentzy Meeting until the ****s woke up, at ELEVEN O'CLOCK!! THEN they decided to "close down" at 1:30.
At noon, as predicted two dins ago by Color Dopplar Radar, the stuff started falling. And falling. And sticking. At 1:30 the whole village was let out of its caves, and walked to their Yak Barking Decks. But the goat-tracks were impassable, no sand, no salt, no trucks, no polis. So the roads were clogged. NOT because there was too much traffic, but because no one could move faster than 1.6 kmph, and all the All-Wheel-Drive Einsteins in their $80K musharraf-carriers who don't know why there is a Phrisht Giyar, tried passing those SDRE dhoti-shivering 1.6mph travelers like DeeGeeCeeAy zooming around Eph-Ay-Ay, and spun or collided. And stalled in the middle of the road. Or raced their wheels at 80 mph while not moving an inch.
The lines stretched back to the Barking Decks. And inside. All the way. I usually bark strategically, to get out fast when the Pakis explode bum-e-musharraf - all of 30 meters from the exit. Took me only 1.5 ghanta to get out of the deck, then I took one look at the line on the right, and the empty road to the left, so I went left, parked again and went back to my cave where I had RoohAfze-ul-Kufr and warmth and Pee Aref for solace.
Then I monitored the Traffic WebCams etc, and finally decided I had to leave at 4 - "hard freej coming" etc. The traffic cams showed plenty of space between yaks on the goat track where i had to go, so I said: Aha! ishbeed limit ride! (traffic cam does not show speed, only position, and I should have seen that the picture was not different 5 minutes later).
Got on the Interstate easy enough, so I guess the Demikat Mayor can't be blamed. Interstate is T-Party Guvrnor responjibility. Rest is, shall we say, history, best not thought about. Went supersonic, reached at 3:30 like Concorde-e-Poodle-Frogistan. Spent next two dins recovering from Jet Lag. The saddle of an ancient Yakkord is clearly far more comfortable than a Bijnez Class airline seat on PAA, because I spent 15 hours in it, no problem. I guess terror eliminates all other discomforts etc.
Bottom line: 1) Silk Road at 2mph average, takes 1350 hours to travel 2700 miles. Madarssa math.
2) Without the help of the SitReps and Top-Down organizational orders, I would (a) not have gone in at all and (b) I would have let all my own Lashkar out much earlier if I HAD gone in, planning for them to REACH CAVE, not be on the goat-track, when the air-raid ishtarted.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 18:55
by Amber G.
TSJ, UBji and other folks..
This may be important and worth publicizing. (Let us see if this is picked up by some media)
It many be interesting to see what our undersecretary (acting) of human rights and democracy (Zeya ji) has been doing.
First, this is a you-tube video, loaded by Zeya, worth watching (and saving as archive as it may likely to be taken off) on telling US, how some of the women are converting to Islam every day. Even the blond ones in California.
Daily Thousands Of Americans Converting to Islam In USA - uploaded by UZ around 2009
Another typical article, which made UZ which made her well known as "expert on Islam/woman rights and such things" is
this one: (Appeared way back in 1989 in Ref: (Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, November 1989, Page 42 - I have to do some searching to find it on-line easily available , it, and similar articles have appeared in some of the Paki and mid-eastern newspapers - "mission to clear up unattractive images of the prophet")
Islam in America - By UZ
(Permit it to quote it here, this may require subscription)
Muslims in America Face Two Educational Challenges
A key factor behind the development of American cultural and political institutions has been the freedom of religion. The framers of the US Constitution, well aware of the dangers of religious oppression, sought to guarantee tolerance of faiths through the First Amendment, which sets forth the separation of church and state. However, ideals are not always translated into reality. This nation's schools, far from offering an education sensitive to children of all faiths, are afflicted by a Judeo-Christian bias which poses a formidable challenge to the ethical and intellectual growth of America's Muslim students.
The following description of Islam is excerpted from an American textbook currently in use: "It is uncertain whether Muhammad learned to read or write. . . The things he heard and saw later became part of the Koran. . . The Koran places males above females. . ." Ironically, the aforementioned text was one used by a private Islamic school. It is obvious that America's Muslims must take active steps to dispel such misinformation, as well as to preserve the religious identities and values of their children.
Current efforts center on working within the US educational establishment to increase the quality of texts and resource materials related to Islam and establishing private Islamic elementary and secondary schools to meet the unique intellectual and spiritual needs of their students.
Educational organizations working to improve resource materials on Islam include the Middle East Social Studies Association (MESSA), the Southeastern Regional Islamic and Middle Eastern Studies Seminar (SERIMESS), and the Middle East Outreach Council (MEOC). MESSA has published numerous bibliographies and reviews of Islamic materials, and provides audio-visual works on the topic to this nation's public schools. SERIMESS, now compromising some 300 members, offers teaching and curriculum development workshops on Islam to social studies instructors throughout the southeastern United States. Operating at the higher educational level in MEOC, an 11-member association of universities which sponsors the distribution of accurate, informed resource materials on Islam to US educators.
For their part, Muslim organizations such as the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT) have coordinated efforts to provide learning materials to US schools. The result is the project "Teaching About the Middle East and the Islamic World-A Resource Oriented Workshop." It has been successfully used in over 25 school systems nationwide. Fears that the project is an attempt to gain new converts to Islam are unfounded. As the editor of a US Muslim magazine explains, "The movement is not a proselytizing push for Islam. It preaches accurate understanding about Islam and peoples of the Middle East."
American Muslim parents who are not satisfied with the level of instruction or who are concerned about the atmosphere in some American public schools have alternatives in independent schooling. Nearly 60 full-time Islamic elementary and secondary schools have been established in the United States to date, although the majority operate only from kindergarten through the sixth grade.
Curriculum development is a major problem, since generally accepted Islamic course structures and learning materials are as yet unformulated. In addition, in order to gain accreditation, Islamic schools must use only textbooks approved by the state. Matters are further complicated by the lack of qualified instructors. A recent analysis of this nation's 300 Islamic teachers concluded that roughly 75 percent have inadequate professional credentials.
Most Muslim parents, though, rely upon "weekend schools," the Islamic equivalent of the Christian Sunday school. Some 370 such schools are in existence, enrolling close to 40,000 students.
Within America's Muslim community, considerable attention is devoted to the issue of alternative Islamic education. The Islamice Society of North America's Education Committee scheduled the symposium "Towards An Applied Islamic Educational Model in North America" October 13 through 15 in Indianapolis, IN, to facilitate information exchange among Muslim educators from throughout the US and Canada.
For more information on Islam and education at the national level, write to ISNA, Department of Education, PO Box 38, Plainfield, IN 46168 or call (317) 839-1840. Those interested in hearing from informed lecturers on topics related to Islam are invited to contact the AET Speakers Bureau c/o the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
Uzra Zeya is a staff member of the American Educational Trust specializing in Islamic affairs.
Here is another article by her along the same lines: (1990)
By Uzra Zeya
The Growing Presence of American Converts to Islam
There was also an article (I am sorry I can't locate it, in archives - may be some people can help) titled -
something like “How
US Islamic Financial Institutions Provide Interest-Free Services" (Those interest-free service type banks went out of fashion ..)
(Added Later: Thanks google, here it is (at least one copy): (Zeya, Uzra -
Publication:Washington Report on Middle East Affairs Date: March 31, 1990 Volume/issue:Vol. III, No. 11)
http://www.questia.com/library/1P3-5925 ... erest-free)
****
Some background (My opinion take it FWIW) - UZ's entry in US SD , was primary through Condi Rice and Hillary C. (IIRC, She was, at some time secretary or something of one).. she is not that popular in Kerry or Obama's circle - Kerry reluctantly kept her as "acting secretary" as he could not find any other suitable person - some of them unavailable past Benghazi affair)
She took (and is taking) a lot of heat from Benghazi affair. ..I think, she should be really thinking about our (US) diplomats and not too busy in protecting likes of SR family)..
While she was putting all the efforts in evacuating SR's family, US diplomats in Benghazi died. Not to mention her stunt did no favor to US diplomats in India.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 18:59
by UlanBatori
Ahem.. AmberG, I was hoping the COTUSppl would find this on their own. Far be it phrom me to bring in such relijjus conjiderashuns into a nashun built on the proposition
One Nashun under (Alla*). With sebarashun oph ishtate and masjid
But I think the same ppl who wondered about the Benghazi
CoverupInvestigation by the SD, already have a few concerns along these lines.
Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 31 Jan 2014 19:20
by TSJones
While she was putting all the efforts in evacuating SR's family, US diplomats in Benghazi died. Not to mention her stunt did no favor to US diplomats in India.
I find no logic at all in the above statement. Either in time sequence or analogy. Sorry.
