Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

[vina]

This tragedy should not be taken as an excuse to lash out and give way to old prejudices.

If all India had were Private Airlines, who would repeat this, if needed:

13 August to 11 October 1990 – Air India entered the Guinness Book of World Records for the most people evacuated by a civil airliner.

Why, the private airlines will. In all countries of the world, there is usually a law, that the govt can commandeer the private fleets in times of crisis and war !. That would extend to the current private fleet as of today!. In fact, the UK was the greatest power in the world for a long time because , it had the largest commercial civil fleet in the world !. That was used during all the wars (WWi, WWII) (heard of atlantic convoys, QE1 and QE2 etc used as troop carriers, why the entire dunkirk evacuation was done using pleasure craft and fishing boats and all kinds of small vessels that they could get their hands on, not on Royal Navy transports!).

Don't Forget that Islamic Terrorists specifically targeted Air India Building (Nariman Point) in 1993 Blasts - there is symbolism of Air India as well.

That Nariman Point building should be sold (given that it is one of the highest priced real estate in the world) and the money given back to the tax payers / paid towards liquidation costs of Air Parasite.

And by the way, Air India is set to become a full Star Alliance member by March 2011. Those who wish to travel by other Airlines are free to do so, no one has a gun to their head.

I shudder to think of the other unsuspecting Star Alliance members who get transit and connectivity flights on Air Parasite. I actually see a consipracy by Babus, Mantris and others to actually avoid flying Air India and fly the other STAR alliance members in the name of code share/ transferrence of points/ alliance membership.

As for the "gun to their head" , there is the small matter of taxes that go to plug the huge hole in Air Parasite when I fly any other airline and the income taxes and other taxes I pay. I am not going to fly Air India/Indian Airlines to the best of my ability and absolutley never do so where there are alternatives. So why should I pay for the "privilege" of those leeches to run up huge losses and raise fares by restricting competition and giving freebies to Mantris and babus and others to fly in 1st class/business class whatever (not to mention, life time free passes to AI Chairmen, one of whom seems to be doing quite well in London body shopping pilots to AI.. thank you).

The Fixed Deposits in these Banks was supposedly the safest place to invest, and park money.

That had nothing to do with PSU nature. It had more to do with the fact that SBI was owned by RBI and the govt has the ability to print notes while the private guys dont.

[neerajb]

I actually see a consipracy by Babus, Mantris and others to actually avoid flying Air India and fly the other STAR alliance members in the name of code share/ transferrence of points/ alliance membership.

Vina Saar, you are confusing STAR Alliance with codeshare. AI operates code share flights with STAR alliance members. Code share only needs an agreement with the other carrier. Even now you can book a ticket with say Swiss air and later come to know that the operating carrier is not LX but our very own Maharaja.

STAR alliance is a benefit from pax point of view. You get a seamless travel and don't have to go through security check just to board the onward connection. In mumbai AI still uses the jugaad "manual through check-in" which is still better than to go through the normal process. Moreover flexibility in redeeming your points is a plus IMVHO.

Cheers....

[chetak]

Last contact between ATC and Flt. 812:

No indication that ATC saw anything unusual in the approach, nothing about landing 2400 feet too far etc. There was no "abort" instruction, no MayDay, etc. etc. NOTHING.

So it had to be a catastrophic, sudden failure that occurred after touchdown, totally beyond the pilots' ability to deal with it. Like thrust reverser failure on one side.

There is one report that the ATC "gentleman" at Mangalore even instructed the aircraft to backtrack and vacate the runway using delta to the taxi track.

This was after the IX Flt. 812 had crashed and burned, with a huge cloud of dust still very visible at the end of the runway.

That was how much the ATC at Mangalore was AWARE of what was happening!!!

ATC: Express India 812 landed 0032... backtrack at the end of runway... vacate runway via taxiway delta and (no acknowledgment from the pilot... silence used radio chatter).

[chetak]

Now they tell us!


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/716 ... oeful.html

Poor monitoring of airlines and lack of manpower cause for concern
Air safety in South is ‘woeful’
New Delhi, May 25, DHNS:

Of the four zones in the country, the Directorate-General of Civil Aviation’s (DGCS) south zone has the worst record on air safety and aerodrome surveillance along with other regulatory lapses, a senior official manning India’s aviation security revealed on Tuesday.


Speaking to Deccan Herald on condition of anonymity, the official, who is integral to DGCA’s air safety unit, disclosed that “the southern zone has no proper regulatory system in place” that could otherwise mitigate air safety-related problems, including disastrous accidents.

The DGCA’s southern zone air safety division is headquartered in Chennai and includes other airports like Mangalore and Hyderabad. Saturday’s catastrophic accident involving an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft may not have been averted, but the official pointed out that it was compounded by “artificially created problems” in respect of “poor monitoring of airlines, improper and inadequate training, below par aerodrome surveillance and lack of manpower.”

Step-motherly treatment

Pointing out DGCA’s “step-motherly treatment” of the southern zone’s air safety division, the official, who has, in the past been involved in investigating air crashes and other aircraft-related accidents, said one indication of the “abysmal” situation is that the post of air traffic controller in Hyderabad has been lying vacant for the past few months.

Consequently, the official said that the various airlines operating from the airports in the southern region “have a free run” since there is “no accountability in the absence of any watchdog” which, in this case, should be the DGCA.

Incidentally, the Mangalore airport does not have a precision approach radar (PAR) on whose screen the horizontal (as depicted on a flat screen) flight along an ILS “localiser” and the vertical flight path along the glide slope are marked.

A PAR helps radar controllers to compare the information and alert the pilot that the aircraft is left of the localiser or above or below the glide path. Localiser and glide path are elements of an instrument landing system (ILS).

[Sachin]

There is one report that the ATC "gentleman" at Mangalore even instructed the aircraft to backtrack and vacate the runway using delta to the taxi track.

Watched the IBN Live link. The communication (by wireless) seem to be way too clear and audible in the recordings. Are you sure that the audio is the actual communication? Honestly, I have not heard a VHF radio communication recording so clearly.

[svinayak]

There is one report that the ATC "gentleman" at Mangalore even instructed the aircraft to backtrack and vacate the runway using delta to the taxi track.

Watched the IBN Live link. The communication (by wireless) seem to be way too clear and audible in the recordings. Are you sure that the audio is the actual communication? Honestly, I have not heard a VHF radio communication recording so clearly.

Birth of a conspiracy theory!

[RamaY]

Perhaps they move the airport somewhere else safe.

[Vivek K]

I would recommend folks read up on Terminal Instrument Procedures (TRPS), FAR part 77 and Airport Design AC 150/5300-13. I do not know the ICAO corresponding pubs. Per TERPS, the required obstacle clearance in the final segment of the instrument approach procedure must be maintained.

Approach Surface - The precision approach surface is 1,000 ft wide and starts at the primary surface (200 FT from end of pavement). The approach surface extends upwards at a slope of 50:1 and ourtwards such that at 50,000 ft the width is 16,000 ft.

The runway safety areas (RSA) must be provided all around the runway and beyond the runway ends. These must be capable of bearing the weight of an aircraft in emergencies. RSA length beyond runway length must be a minimum of 1,000 ft.

Also, obstacles in not in the Approach surface but that would be taller than a horizontal plane 150ft above airport elevation affect the circling pattern of aircraft.

Aircraft glide path = Obstacle Clearance Surface + Required Obstacle Clearance(ROC).

If an obstacle is of such a height that the required obstacle clearance would not be availabe then the decision altitude is pushed upwards to provide the ROC. When you look at obstacles and their impact on airports look at obstacle height + survey accuracy (50 ft in some cases and 3 ft in others) and ROC for the relevant segment of the approach procedure.

IGI Airport @ DEL I cannot tell the distances but the runway 11/29 has been shortened by approx 5,174 ft because of something in the approach surface. Since the displacement is for about 5174 ft, the obstacle height is about 103ft. So one mile of very expensive pavement has been wasted (can be used for take of from the other end of runway) because of this. Shows poor control of airspace.

The Shiv idol seems to be outside the primary surface and the approach surface based on approx interpretations from Google Earth. We would need the Airport's layout Plan to know more details.

[Prasad]

Now they tell us!


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/716 ... oeful.html

sir,
same thread quite a few pages back, you'll see links from The hindu about the woeful state of radars and other equipment at the madras airport. And that has been the state for quite a few years! Its not new and will be remedied only when we have a mid-air crash sometime soon. Dont fix it until it crashlands seems to be their motto.

[ramana]

Chetak, those factors did not cause the crash. Don't fall for the red herrings. The problem was the AI plane touched down beyond midway of the runway and didn't have margin to slow down. This is what is called a system accident.
1) Complex process_ landing on table top with a valley at other end is a complex matter
2) Closely coupled system- If one lands midway the error has effects many things due to the layout of the airfield
3) Long periods without accident causes human complacency -Both pilot and co-pilot were familiar with field with multiple safe landings
The airfield has to have margin for human errors
Having a valley at one end is not margin

The Shiva statue is sickular issue and thrown in to confuse the issue

[Prasad]

Air India cracks the whip, employees end strike

Well is this going to make any difference in future? Looks like a good reaction for now but who the heck is going to foot the bill for the loss of revenue and sheer wastage!

[Prasad]

Govt crushes AI strike; 17 union men sacked, several suspended

The move to crush the strike - which started on the issue of a Kingfisher engineer being asked to clear a relief IA aircraft for take off from Mangalore on Saturday after bringing in coffins and the deceased's relatives - was set in motion by a livid government on Tuesday night itself. With thousands of passengers stranded across the country, Patel spoke to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and finance minister Pranab Mukherjee. Both leaders gave Patel the go-ahead to take appropriate action to end the stir.

these leeches won't stop at anything! about time somebody whipped their sorry a$$es and got them in line.

[Dileep]

Somehow, the 'landed in the middle' theory is incredible. Which pilot in the right mind would actually touch down in the middle, when he very well know that he can't stop?

The 'expert investigators' of manorama claims that the plane touched down too fast at the normal region, became airborne again, touched down again in the middle, and then crashed because it couldn't be stopped.

[Singha]

sounds like in aircraft carriers we need a 24x7 couple of cameras recording the runway activity during operating hours at our airports. tapes can be reused every week if nothing happens. but if something happens we have a week of history to check on.

the guys who must have been on the apron for security, engineering, fuel truck and the ladder truck must have seen it closely.

[Sachin]

Birth of a conspiracy theory!

More than coming up with a consipracy theory my question was whether IBN Live putting up snippets of the actual radio communication, or kind of a recording (with voices of other people) based on the ATC communication transcripts they might have got.

The 'expert investigators' of manorama claims that the plane touched down too fast at the normal region, became airborne again, touched down again in the middle, and then crashed because it couldn't be stopped.

Guess Malayala Manorama would also have come up with a map/sketch showing the plane movements in detail as well .

[chetak]

Birth of a conspiracy theory!

Sirjee,

ATC records all its own conversations as well as those received on a very special expensive multi track recorders which is also injected with a time stamp.

You can clearly separate and isolate specific conversations.

These days communications are digital and fairly clear.

This is not a CT. Guy must have been having tea or breakfast or whatever. Shit happens.

[Dileep]

Guess Malayala Manorama would also have come up with a map/sketch showing the plane movements in detail as well .

Here you go sir!





Note: Posted under fair use policy. Shall be promptly removed if the said newspaper have any objection.

[Dileep]

Non mallu folks. Pardon me for not giving a translation. The is beyond the capability/capacity of poor moi.

[Surya]

sounds like in aircraft carriers we need a 24x7 couple of cameras recording the runway activity during operating hours at our airports. tapes can be reused every week if nothing happens. but if something happens we have a week of history to check on.

the guys who must have been on the apron for security, engineering, fuel truck and the ladder truck must have seen it closely.

Singha

a very perceptive point

[chetak]

Chetak, those factors did not cause the crash. Don't fall for the red herrings. The problem was the AI plane touched down beyond midway of the runway and didn't have margin to slow down. This is what is called a system accident.
1) Complex process_ landing on table top with a valley at other end is a complex matter
2) Closely coupled system- If one lands midway the error has effects many things due to the layout of the airfield
3) Long periods without accident causes human complacency -Both pilot and co-pilot were familiar with field with multiple safe landings
The airfield has to have margin for human errors
Having a valley at one end is not margin



The Shiva statue is sickular issue and thrown in to confuse the issue

Sirjee,

Yes, the runway is a table top.

There are table tops and there are table tops.

No pilot refuses to operate to or from Mangalore. Pilots are comfortable operating here but very alert as it is a critical runway.Some other table tops in India cannot find enough pilots willing to operate from them.

8000 odd feet is ample for a Boeing B738. FACT

Yes, the ill fated flight landed long on the 8000 odd feet runway. TO BE CONFIRMED but let's assume it did.

Had he decided to complete his landing he had enough of the runway to stop safely on the runway ( approx 6000 odd feet) Assumed from many reports. May or may not be right.

Tried a runway go around?? Indications are that it was attempted. VERY wrong if true. Not permitted by SOP specially ofter thrust reversers have cut in. Asymmetric reverse or forward thrust can result.

Check B738 operating manuals, the aircraft in worst case conditions, like MLW, high speed, tail wind, wet runway etc etc with full manual braking, reverse and ground spoilers deployed would stop in 3500 odd feet. We are assuming that he touched down at 150 kts, there after every 10 knots increase of forward speed, within limits, would add a further 65 meters to stop. The experienced pilots in this cockpit would not have in any case come in at any speed much higher than 160 kts.

Mistakes were made. Who, how, when will be clear in the analysis of the DFDR.

Should he have touched down? NO.

Should he have gone around? YES.

Why did he not aim for the thresh hold ( or as close to it as possible ) as any normal pilot should do every time, on any runway, day or night, in any weather condition? ANY ONE'S GUESS.

The accident was random and the airport had a good record of safe operations for about a decade prior to this accident. The aeroplane was about two years old, fully serviceable, weather conditions, nav aids, airport services were all conducive and alert to normal operations.

The pilot was on a confirmed, normal and uneventful ILS approach. RT communications between ATC and Flt 812, those that are available open source, do not indicate any abnormality, confusion or deviation from set SOP.

The airport is ICAO and DGCA cleared. 8000 odd feet is ample for the types of aeroplanes permitted for normal commeccial operations. Table top or needle top is immaterial as long pilots are trained to operate in tough conditions.

I don't mean to sound heartless, but if someone just had a bad day at the office resulting in 158 dead, these are the very real risks of flying. The minute you buy a ticket you are at risk. Sad for the victims but by sheer public demand, normal flights resumed very quickly from Mangalore, after the accident. Those flying may be scared or reluctant or what ever but they do still get on the aircraft without being forced on board at the point of a gun.

8000 feet is plenty margin for human error. What if some one lands upside down? How would you cater for this? where is the margin for error? Specious arguments can be endless. Pilots are professionals trained to operate in very tight situations and advised to keep within the limits of the equipment that they operate. Aircrafts are not always forgiving of mistakes. If there was any problem, go around, approach again, divert to Bangalore or whatever. No excuse to touch down long on a critical runway.

Any departure from the hundreds of parameters that need to considered in commercial flying operations will lead to unstabilized situations. Fatality may not result in all cases.

If you follow aviation in India closely, you will be horrified by the daily near misses, 99.999999999999% of which go unreported. Pilots gossip like any other human being. So far, I have heard of only one BE, MBA first officer , One MBBS, MS doctor and quite a few BEs flying. Most of these guys do not do well. IMHO, na ghar ka na ghat ka.

Human factors often play a very major part in a majority of accidents. Fears of lawsuits or insurance not willing to payout may be a major cause of the supression of real facts.

I simply do not buy the argument about a system error.

[Singha]

are you a serving or retired pilot sir ?

[Gagan]

My view is that, technical aspects aside - and I am in no way diminishing the importance of what chetak-ji wrote - a table top runway has less space outside of the runway in cases of emergency, as we've seen here.

When something untoword is to happen, every straw that can bolster safety is needed. I have a feeling that had this not been a table top, there is a possibility that this might not have been the big disaster it has become.

The most important question from my POV is : was this unnecessarily converted to a table top runway? Is the area around Mangalore really so short of suitable land that an international airport simply had to be built where it was?

Any runway is fine as long as things are alright. But when accidents happen, that extra bit of flat space around would have helped.

[Dilbu]

Newspaper morons are showing charred bodies on the front page. Not just Manorama but all of them including the visual media. No decency or common sense. Remember the 26/11 live reporting of operations conducted by NSG snipers. We need a law regulating these things but without coming in the way of free speech.

[Dileep]

I see a lot of opinion pieces recounting how bad and scary the landings at Mangalore are. What they forget to mention is that those were on the OLD runway.

[ravar]

Okay…here goes the translation… (if any serious alteration has happened to the meaning, other Mallu BRs can help in editing)

Personally, after reading through the article, I felt that it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. MM usually has a habit of hyperbole and drama.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Jacob K. Philip

Investigations reveal that the aircraft which crashed at Bajpe airport on Saturday had touched down 7000 feet into the runway, approaching the runway at almost twice the permitted speed.

The maximum allowed approach speed is 220 kmph. Incidentally, the Serbian Commander was trying to land the aircraft at around 400 kmph.

Investigative agencies also believe that the Commander had not revealed to the ATC the truth regarding the deviation of the vertical glide path. It has to be assumed that the pilot wanted to avoid delay in landing and hence suppressed the information on the deviation of the glide path from the normal 3 degrees. Usually, the pilot has to abort landing in case of such deviation or if the runway does not become visible at 450 feet even if the correct glide path has been maintained. It is not unusual for pilots to lie on such occasions to avoid inconveniences associated with these deviations.

Investigations reveal that after touching the tip of the runway at great speed, the plane jumped up again and subsequently touched down again. By the time it jumped off again, the plane had reached very close to the sand laden security perimeter. The pilot had indeed decided to take off the plane again upon realizing the mortally dangerous situation. Though he tried to give maximum speed and pitched the nose up, it was in vain. The aircraft which obeyed in the beginning, raised its nose but again touched the runway security zone . By the time the captain was giving it a final try, the right wing had hit the ILS antenna and destroyed.

The earlier assumption that the aircraft caught fire after crashing down the valley has been proved wrong by the investigative agencies. Fire and smoke had started as soon as the wing hit the antenna and severed off.

The fire force personnel who were stationed at 2600 feet from the beginning of the runway had observed the plane landing at 7000 feet and soon after saw the billowing smoke and fire.
They had kept the engines of the fire tenders running as is the procedure with all other aircrafts and rushed to the site through the runway.

Incidentally, Pushpa, a housewife reports a big sound at 6 a.m. and seeing the aircraft and smoke from her Kenchar Lalbagh home which offers a good view of the tip of the table top runway. The aircraft toppled down the valley afterwards.

The last moments of the ill fated flight was quite different from what was assumed. (repeat of the gist of what has been mentioned above)The plane had broken off into 3 pieces in air itself during the final fall. On final impact, it broke down inot 8 pieces. In fact, one of the pieces did a somersault in air with the passengers.

The fall was in two stages. As the aircraft fell around 150 feet down from the tip of the runway and the security perimeter the right wing and engine which severed off upon impact with the ILS antenna came to rest on the runway and the valley. The aircraft, which was on fire by then, skidded down the valley at great speed . The port side engine was still intact under the wing and as the wing cut the forest cover off vines and shrubs, it almost scraped past a huge palm tree. Had the plane tilted 1 cm to the left, the tree would have obstructed and stopped the wing thereby changing the entire dimension of the accident.

Upon reaching the vertical hang of the cliff, the aircraft body lost contact with the ground surface and plunged over (without touching ) the Kenjar-Maravoor road underneath. The bird broke into 3 pieces at this stage.

Most of the passengers were in the elongated section starting from the tail. The wing was with the section forward to this. A dramatic event happened as the section which got severed from the cockpit (breakage somewhere forward to the wings ) hurtled down. This section with the wing rolled over and the wing came over to the right side thus exposing the belly and touched the ground.

Krishnan, one of the survivors narrated to MM, “after the plane rested, I realized that I was hanging upside down with the seatbelt restraining me. Upon releasing it, I fell inside the aircraft.”
He also mentioned that he was seated somewhere at the middle of the aircraft. He would not have realized that he was in the section which did the somersault.

Incidentally, it is highly possible that all the 8 survivors were seated in this section.

It was the section aft to the one mentioned above that carried most of the passengers. Most of them were found to have been charred to death with their seat belts. The accident photographs also reveal that they had not rolled over.

The section which fell off from the cockpit was just forward to where Krishnan was seated. The bodies were few here. There was no one other than pilots in the cockpit. The section which was found to the right side of the cockpit reveal that the 3 or 4 bodies inside this were that of the airline staff.

All the accident photographs had covered the tail section which seemingly gave the impression that it is the vertical stabilizer, but incidentally, it is the elevator.

Photos-description
1. Elevator, not the vertical fin. The vertical fin would have severed off. The other elevator might be under the mud on the opposite side.

2. The tail section. Most of the passengers were found here charred with their seat belts.

3. Section just forward to the wings and extending just near the cockpit. Bodies were less here

4. The bodies of the Commander and the Copilot were found here as well as the Flight Data Acquisition Unit (which was mistaken for the black box)

5. The section which was found to the right side of the cockpit reveal that the 3 or 4 bodies inside this were that of the airline staff.

6. Left wing. It was intriguing for the investigators at first to solve how the left wing came to rest on the right side.

7. Left engine. It severed off from the wing during the roll over and fell over the cockpit

8. A section of the outer skin of the aircraft which is assumed to have been ripped off in an explosion. The outlines of 3 windows can be seen here. It is also assumed that it got ripped off during the impact of severance of the right wing.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

[Singha]

>> The fire force personnel who were stationed at 2600 feet from the beginning of the runway

their accounts and anyone else on apron awaiting this plane like ladder truck/fuel truck would indeed be most credible as they had no other job unlike ATC.

[neerajb]

@Ravar.

Thanks for the translation.

Cheers....

[ravar]

Anytime!!

Cheers

[Neela]

After end of AI strike, two unions get de-recognised

Expect more trouble! The unions will not go down without a fight.

[Vivek K]

Investigations reveal that the aircraft which crashed at Bajpe airport on Saturday had touched down 7000 feet into the runway, approaching the runway at almost twice the permitted speed.

Investigative agencies also believe that the Commander had not revealed to the ATC the truth regarding the deviation of the vertical glide path. It has to be assumed that the pilot wanted to avoid delay in landing and hence suppressed the information on the deviation of the glide path from the normal 3 degrees. Usually, the pilot has to abort landing in case of such deviation or if the runway does not become visible at 450 feet even if the correct glide path has been maintained. It is not unusual for pilots to lie on such occasions to avoid inconveniences associated with these deviations.
.

The airport is reported to have a CAT I ILS with probably a 3/4 mile (unless it had approach lights) and 450ft (per the above post) Decision Altitude. So at 3/4 mile and 450 ft above airport elevation, the pilot decides if he will go ahead with the landing. Before we start banging the "Serbian" commander, have we looked also at the ILS to make sure that it did not wrongly guide the pilot to land at the 1000 ft point instead of the runway threshold. In other words, did the Commander know that he had deviated from the standard glide path? Also, did the runway have remaining distance signs to inform the pilots of a problem? Were adequate runway safety areas beyond runway ends provided? Was the runway surface grooved to enhance friction? So many other things could have also gone wrong. Why are we jumping to conclusions?

Did the aircraft face a hydraulic failure leading to problems etc? Also, are pilots required to come in fast to land at this airport so that they may have the option of executing a "missed approach" if needed and go around?

8,000 ft is adequate for this type of aircraft. Check out Chicago Midlands Airport which is even shorter (under 6,000 ft) and handles 737s.

Wait for the investigators to complete their report before jumping to conclusions.

[nachiket]

Near-collision at Mumbai airport

Seems to be a clear case of pilot error this time.

[Vivek K]

Near-collision at Mumbai airport

Seems to be a clear case of pilot error this time.

Did this happen at night? In any case, the airport needs to consider increasing the pilot's situational awareness of the aiport geometrics. Lighted guidance signs that help in clearly identifying each runway/taxiway especially at intersections are critical.

Additionally there are devices that display GPS like maps of airport facilities and help pilots in understanding the complex geometry of airports.

[Dileep]

The ILS either works, or not. The glide slope is created by the antenna, and the touchdown point is determined by the position of the antenna. So, it is impossible for the ILS to indicate a wrong touchdown point.

It is inconceivable that a pilot will try to land if the speed is beyond the limits set by the manual. It is also inconceivable that he would touchdown if past the safe distance on runway.

Lots of questions!!

[Vivek K]

The ILS either works, or not. The glide slope is created by the antenna, and the touchdown point is determined by the position of the antenna. So, it is impossible for the ILS to indicate a wrong touchdown point.

It is inconceivable that a pilot will try to land if the speed is beyond the limits set by the manual. It is also inconceivable that he would touchdown if past the safe distance on runway.

Lots of questions!!

Dileep, based on discussions with senior FAA personnel on a previous incident, I don't think you are right. Every equipment is set to some parameters. And there can be problems.

What manual are you referring to? Boeing's manual, Airlines manual? Are we certain that whatever manual you cite has a set speed of 220 kmph for this airport, its elevation and longitudinal gradient?

[ramana]

ravar, Thanks. Gives a different prespective about excess speed.

[chaanakya]

CNN IBN TV reports that FDR/CVR are badly damaged and needs special handling to get data.
Hence all reports of transcripts need to be discounted as such.

By one witness account, Dr Sabrina nasrin , it appears that aircraft landed with some thud , jerked and then gathered speed.


http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Ma ... 438471.ece

“It was a normal flight as we approached the [Mangalore] airport. The crew instructed us to fasten our seat belts and the plane touched the ground. Then it started accelerating again. I felt the jerk as it picked up speed. People started screaming as the plane tried to take off again. I did not look at the other passengers because I would get more scared. I closed my eyes when I felt the plane go down.”

After the plane came to a standstill, it was dark. “Power supply went off, and there were trees outside.” Sabrina unfastened her seatbelt, but when she tried to stand, she found her right foot trapped. Managing to free herself somehow, she found herself out of the aircraft. “I don't know how I got out, I could hear the sound of the propellers. But there were trees and I had to negotiate the vegetation with my hands to get out of the plane. I landed somewhere near the fuel tank so I went in the opposite direction.”

Scenario -II
If pilot approached at high speed and flared up , he would have missed the normal touchdown point. Altitude would have been deceiving as it would show high altitude while on a descent/approach. Only near the runway it would show runway height.
MAP also would have been deceptive. So perhaps pilot continued to descent, instead of executing MA/TOGO.
He would have decided to flare probably to reduce speed and to have soft landing and missed touchdown point. It is possible ATC would have asked to abort?? Or whether pilot decided to abort?? In either case he would not have engaged reversers. but tried to thrusters max. As it takes some time for power to kick in it touched the ground and autobrake applied. Hence the jerk. The pilot released autobrake. Plane gathered speed but not having sufficient speed or length, he would have tried nose up flaps full down (30 deg) resulting in stall as its wing hit Localiser. then broke up pieces , raced down. Fire would not have started while it hit localiser, it would have started after plane pieces came to rest and some lucky passengers got out, while others...
The reason is Aviation fuel would have caught fire readily and exploded while it hit localiser and none would have survived.

One might remember if plane tries to execute missed approach at a speed higher than landing but lower than fly off speed , it might get into stall if it is at 500 ft or less and there would not be sufficient height to recover from stall for B737-800. On a tabletop runway it would be a difficult decision. May be one can confirm if it had PAR with VOR/DME as that would have helped.


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Turkey Airlines flight TK 1591 which crash landed at Amsterdam with 9 dead including three pilots. Others survived as not much fuel was left/tanks near empty Many survived because it had sufficient ground after runway.It had gone into stall due to wrong altitude data caused autothrottle to reduce speed.

In present case , is it possible that autothrottle gave more power with wrong altitude data ( due to table top profile) and it went unnoticed due to fatigue factor?? It was an overnighter with early morning landing ( first flight of the day). After touchdown, missed approach procedure is a no no, but what about Table top runway where plane has nowhere to go, just drop dead at the end of runway, despite runway having adequate length in most conditions except wet, rainy and tail wind or cross wind conditions. These were not reported.


BTW, it would take more time for data to really come it.

[Vivek K]

Chanakya, MAP is at Decision Point (MDA or DH or DA). That would be about 3/4 of a mile from the landing threshold. Why then did the pilot miss the threshold, not reduce speed (if that is at all correct)? If he did try to abort, what was the warning to him? If the pavement was wet, he would need an extra 15% length.

[chaanakya]

Here is third and simple scenario

Scenario-III

Plane on normal flight path
Descent normal within glide path.
ILS approach
Landing speed normal i.e 140 Kts
3 deg to runway
Makes flare for soft landing
Goes to 1200 fts
touchdown at 2000 fts or near
6000 ft adequate to stop.
Autobrake applied on touch down
Brake had hydraulic failure
Reverse thrust applied
May be front nose wheel assembly collapsed.
Pilot tried nose up a little.
Unable to stop, hits localiser
Hangs there for a minute , many passengers able to get out.
Then plunges into the cliff , breaks into pieces. One or two escapes when pieces come to rest.
Catches fire etc

If everything was normal, why did it happen?? No pilot error as he was too experienced and alert even though morning flight, no ATC error if he was not having his morning coffee, (BTW whats duty change time, whether night duty staff was slogging out before next shift trooped in??
All instruments were there and none malfunctioned as they were brand new and properly serviced?? Whether plane was fine , being brand new and latest in the line, all its instruments functioned within parameters and reported correct altitude?

then why did it happen? 158 lives are not a joke. A string of mishaps shows that lives are being taken for granted.

[chaanakya]

Chanakya, MAP is at Decision Point (MDA or DH or DA). That would be about 3/4 of a mile from the landing threshold. Why then did the pilot miss the threshold, not reduce speed (if that is at all correct)? If he did try to abort, what was the warning to him? If the pavement was wet, he would need an extra 15% length.

Could it be due to the nature of runway?High terrain ....... AGL would give wrong info since runway is far above the ground. MDA must be AGL-Runway MSL as it is plateau. WIth wrong AGL plane would try to speed up as it would think it has not yet reached MDA or DA(H).May be he was approaching glide slope from above and missed it?
Too many questions to answer.

[Vivek K]

Good points Chanakya. MDA = Controlling Obstruction + Required Obstacle Clearance. We would really need more data to speculate. Also, 6,000 ft is good to stop unless the surface was wet.