Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Rahul Mehta
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

brihaspati wrote:I did not use the expression "future dictators". I said dictatorial, military commanders. All the examples I mentioned had obtained their military successes and rose to dictatorial status before they could or did implement their drafts of laws. Obviously, for drastic legal changes, that need not be "organic", dictatorial military powers are needed. But if you read carefully their bios, they indeed used their military powers and a very dictatorial though process to]almost singlehandedly draft laws and impose them. Caesar, Muhammad, Alfred, Peter I, and Napoleon all took a keen and personal interest in drafting laws and imposing them. Successful drafters who are alo forceful and having lasting impact or image as leaders, appear to be associated with a certain dictatorial and military mindset.
Consider two opposite scenario

1. Say small number of people, 1 to n draft laws. But before enacting the law, they take explicit approval of commons.

2. Say a large number of people N, N >> n, draft laws. But this N is still 0.01% of the society. And after drafting, these 0.1% of people impose the law on commons without any approval from commons.

When Virgina Constitution was written in 1775, Jefferson demanded a referendum before enacting that Constitution. But his letter written from Washington reached 10 days after Constitution was already enacted. So his demand was not met. But his campaign that States should have referendum before Constitution comes into force had impact. Some four 4 states went from referendum before imposition of Constitution. And in one of the states, the voters rejected the proposed Constitution by 4:1 votes and so the Constitution had to be redrafted. Back then, Federal Govt was seen as UN like consortium and so Founding Fathers of US did not demand referendum to implement that.

In contrast, look at Nehru et al. Endless consultations with rich and powerful were held before our Magnum Opus Constitution was drafted. But Nehru refused to have referendum provision anywhere in Constitution. Nor did Nehru wasted time in seeking approval of us commons before imposing the Magnum Opus. And first thing he did after imposing Constitution was canceling JurySys, a tool by which citizens can express protest against Govt as well as laws in the Courts. So much for his democratic mindset.

My point is : One can be oligarchic or dictatorial while drafting, but democratic in enacting laws. While one can be democratic in a small circle in making drafts, but dictatorial in enacting laws.

IMO, we should focus on former ONLY. How does it matter whether drafts are written by 1 person of 100 persons? Drafts are like modern software - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration and 1% originality and
99% copy. The laws always run into 1000s and 1000s of pages, and so it clear ab-initio that one person cannot write all this pages and will have delegated it. The important thing is whether laws were approved by commons before they were imposed, and did commons have ways to reject the laws if they later found that laws were created to serve only the rich and not the commons.

----

Now lets look at the problem of "Draftless leader vs Leaders with Drafts" problem from point of view of a non-80G-activist. I define non-80G-activist as some citizen of India who is willing to spend time and money to improve well being of India without expectation of any tax break, grants - he is welcome to expect votes in return.

Now question is should a non-80G-activist support a Draftless Leader/Organization or a leader or organization with drafts?

When citizens and activists vote and work for a leader, they are sacrificing their time, energy, money and so taking risk on life in some cases. Now a draftless leader is a peculiar character - he has all energy to give models but cant find time to write drafts nor can hire someone to write drafts. Where as leader with drafts does have model -- after all drafts are not borne without models. But he wishes to explain his model by citing drafts so that model is fully enumerated and not left to guesses.

The question is : why did Draftless Leader chose not hire draftsmen to draft out his model? And consider person like JP, who refused to give drafts of his recall, Lokniti etc laws for full 25 years when he was out of power and full 18 months when he was defacto in-power. Why such aversion to drafts? My challenge their motives and their integrity. They evaded the debates on drafts because they never ever wanted us commons to have those powers. They used these Lokniti to attract commons, just as one uses cheese to attract mice. Had they given drafts, they would have to actually make those laws when come in power. Drafts refuse the opportunity for the leader to backstab commons if he wins elections.

So IMO, an activist should only support a leader with draft and not a draftless leader as

1. It is very very likely that draftless leader is dishonest
2. The drafted leader is less likely to escape if he wins.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

.

There is one more semi-mathematical reason why I support drafts over models.

There is an underlying assumption, that using compact models (ideologies) , draft can be easily enumerated. i.e. pro-model anti-draft people say "lets decide the model or ideology, drafts will automatically follow". But I believe that drafts are not enumerable from compact models. Consider following two examples :

Example 1: there is known compact real expression f(N) which can enumerate all prime numbers.

Example-2 : Does there exist a compact real expression f(N) which will enumerate primes only? I should enumerate infinite primes. It need not cover all primes. No such expression is known.

The drafts of the laws are meant to control deviant behavior of humans. And humans will try their best to form nexuses and use loopholes present in laws. Now IMO, deviant behaviors cannot be enumerated using compact models. And so laws to control them too cant be enumerated using a compact model.

The DRAFTS of the laws are 1000 human minds making strategy to ensure that none works against collective, and at the same time, many human minds actively working to finds ways to work against collective for self-interest. If there is a model to churn out drafts, then that model would fully explain how human thinks. And if there is no model on how humans think, there cant be a model to churn out drafts.

So one has no option but to kiss bye to all models and look at drafts on a case by case basis.

(Aside : The prime numbers give interesting resemblance with laws, crimes, and punishments)
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by darshhan »

Nehru was never a democratic leader contrary to the myth that prevails.He ruled till his death unlike George washington and Thomas Jefferson who voluntarily stepped down after serving their 2 terms even when they were capable of ruling more.They were so popular that they could have easily ruled for their lifetimes.However that would have set a bad precedent for the future and USA wouldn't have been much different than some latin american countries where coups and civil wars take place just because of power hungry politicians.

One of the major reasons that USA is so ahead in the game is the character and conduct of their founding fathers.Whenever I read about their founding fathers it is hard to believe such men could exist in eighteenth century.This was the time when monarchies used to dominate europe and rest of the world.The founding fathers of America never sought power for themselves and instead sought to empower the American citizens.The bill of rights that they drafted for their citizens is an example.They made 'right to free speech' and 'right to keep and bear arms' among other provisions(the first ten amendments) inalienable rights for the Americans so that they could genuinely defend against government tyranny.They purposely kept the government small so as not to intrude upon a citizen's freedom.

One incident demonstrates their character.Following the end of the war in 1783, Washington returned to private life and retired to his plantation at Mount Vernon, prompting an incredulous King George III to state, "If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world.

Now contrast their attitude with that of Indian Founding fathers most importantly Nehru.He never relinquished power till his death.Even after being party to the agreement which led to the partition of india he was allowed to become Prime Minister.He never resigned even after Chinese invasion of 1962 where he was unable to discharge his duty of defending the nation.He never allowed private sector to flourish thereby stiffling our economy.Everything was to be handled by government as dictated by the failed socialist ideology(this was corrected partially only in 1991 under PV Narsimha rao).One example of his disastrous policies is Air India.Air India was started by JRD Tata in 1932.Nehru after becoming PM forcibly took control of the Air India and made it a government entity(So much for his democracy and freedom).Now the same company is running losses of more than 2000 cr rupees and is seen as a benchmark for inefficiency.

Above all he also started the culture of minority appeasement.Different communities had different laws.To this date we don't have a uniform civil code.

Our weak,corrupt,insecure and power hungry leadership is one of the leading causes of why we have been underperforming as a nation.Our Politicians might like to portray themselves as democratic and patriotic but in reality they are dictatorial and traitors.(Especially those from Congress and communist ranks).

The reality is that India still is not free even if people can vote in elections.There is no right to free speech as experienced by some newspaper editor in kolkata who published something critical about a particular religion.He was forced to spend time in prison.Another example is banning of Salman Rushdie's book "Satanic verses".Yet another example is that of Taslima Nasreen who was forced to leave this supposedly free country because of her opinions.

We don't have any right to keep and bear arms even if it means that terrorists continue to massacre us like lambs.Our lives have no importance whatsoever.By the way the law to keep Indians disarmed was enacted by the british and is still in force even after we have gained our so called independence.The only reason why this law is still in existence is that politician-bureaucrat nexus wants to continue stealing and its oppresive policies and doesn't want people to resist them.Guess what they are succeeding.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi (An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238).Yes this was stated by Gandhiji himself.

Guys in order to change things we will have design and implement a whole new political and governing system.We can start by having our own bill of rights which is codified into the constitution.I definitely support the DRAFTING of such a bill as well as a new constitution.On previous occasions on this forum I have also made my support clear for a system where the leader of the nation(i.e. Prime Minister in our case) is elected directly by the people.Also Prime ministers or Presidents should have Term limits.One should be able to rule for a maximum of 10 years or 2 terms.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rahul Mehta wrote
The drafts of the laws are meant to control deviant behavior of humans. And humans will try their best to form nexuses and use loopholes present in laws. Now IMO, deviant behaviors cannot be enumerated using compact models. And so laws to control them too cant be enumerated using a compact model.

The DRAFTS of the laws are 1000 human minds making strategy to ensure that none works against collective, and at the same time, many human minds actively working to finds ways to work against collective for self-interest. If there is a model to churn out drafts, then that model would fully explain how human thinks. And if there is no model on how humans think, there cant be a model to churn out drafts.
The first italicized part, is most illuminating. For it presupposes the existence of a certain "normal" behaviour from which certain humans "deviate". That assumption in itself is a "model". When one individual decides what is normal or proposes what should be normal from which certain individuals behaviour can be seen to be deviating, that in itself is the process of imposition of individual will and deisrabilities on the "collective". This constitutes the essence of the dictatorial mind.

Please note that here I am not criticizing or eulogizing "dictaorship" - I am simply pointing out that "draft making" of laws for the collective, and trying to impose it on the collective, is the drive that constitutes the dictatorial thought process. Maybe, in reality the practical difference as we interpret it to be is the degree to which the "dictator" appears to be successful in masking his individual will in getting the draft accepted or imposed on the collective.

The second sentence of the first italicized part is also extremely perceptive. It recognizes that draft making itself is a modelling process. A model is a simplification and simpler conceptualization of reality. As such models shed less deterministic factors to retain the bare minimum that appear to explain "most" of observed phenomena in a given context. A model automatically recognizes, by the principle of Occam's razor, that it is a simplification and that hopefully only a small proportion of observations will "deviate".

That laws and drafts of laws are essentially models, is proved also by the impermanent nature of laws. For they have to be changed from time to time to accommodate reality.

The second italicized part, is even more interesting for me : DRAFTS of the laws are 1000 human minds making strategy to ensure that none works against collective, and at the same time, many human minds actively working to finds ways to work against collective for self-interest

This again subconsciously creates a separate category of "collective" who appears as an additional player in the social game of law-making and imposing that law. Truly speaking, there can be no "collective". What appears as collective is the temporary apparent coalition of certain individuals who may have consented to agree on a single point. Problem, most often, this single point does not initially exist as a common point of agreement. Various factors can combine to develop this agreement.

The process by which this initial idea is foisted on a society is a relevant procedure of "legitimization". If you look carefully at this process, you can see, that almost no known example exists where all or even the majority initially agree or participae in the process of legitimization to all aspects of the laws being proposed by a group which has already reached consensus within itself.

Like in the case of the Constituent Assembly, or the American Founding Fathers, this is virtually a small elite group which appoints itself. What the general society does, in fortunate circumstances, is to agree to this elite group to formulate laws. How many Indians did really participate pr play a role in formulating and vetting the drafts proposed by the Constituent Assembly. The fact that law-making remains an "elite" modelling game, is indicated by ease with which individuals like JLN could quietly obliterate the recommendations for UCC given by the Constituent Assembly. The "collective" was too small, too insignificant to oppose such casual gaming.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Abhi_G »

Brihaspati, where would you place Arthashastra and the edicts of Ashok in your description?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shaardula »

In India they put high premium on consensus(t,p). (t,p) indicates dependence on time and percentage of population in favour. similarly drafts(t,p) is also a temporal process. But there is scope for a hierarchy of drafts. with the fundamental drafts being those that allow for other drafts. let each generation draft laws in their own image. but let all generations be governed by the meta principle that they shall be allowed to draft their own laws and thus define what is desirable to them. deviate(t,p), or its more palatable variant undesirable(t,p) and its conjugate, desirable(t,p) are all temporal, that much is clear. why should our framework not have explicitly stated, immutable basis that recognizes this? as a side, these are all not independent and the consequence (t) of one carries on to experience (t+dt), thats fine and known and inescapable.

b, the difference/nuance is similar to grammar and meta grammar. the sandhis and lopas are different in each indic language, but the genius of panini is in pointing out that all languages have sandhis and lopas. the contents are different but the classification of every single of the eight chapters is applicable to all languages. samskruta is not the mother of languages, but panini's 8 chapters is the father of all structure in all languages. do i make sense? let every generation comeout with its own set of 70 drafts, but RM's 99% copied draft #1 -- procedure to allow drafts govern them all.

now dont go fundamental and point out that the fact that the call that each generation be forced to accept the primacy of drafts and deal in them, is itself dictatorial. that just makes the problem intractable and is ,sort of nihilistic. if you want, these are all dynamic programming problems with uncertain payoffs and thus have to be solved greedily and 'in horizon'. they all have to be solved with a 'model' for payoffs. right now we can only hope to recognize that the problem can only be solved greedily and propose that the problem be solved in an approximate dynamic programming framework that allows each iteration to accommodate a different/convenient/expedient model for payoffs, if desired.

may he who is or perhaps not, decree that we shall always be governed by the covenant of the contemporaries.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Rahul Mehta wrote: The drafts of the laws are meant to control deviant behavior of humans. And humans will try their best to form nexuses and use loopholes present in laws. Now IMO, deviant behaviors cannot be enumerated using compact models. And so laws to control them too cant be enumerated using a compact model. The DRAFTS of the laws are 1000 human minds making strategy to ensure that none works against collective, and at the same time, many human minds actively working to finds ways to work against collective for self-interest. If there is a model to churn out drafts, then that model would fully explain how human thinks. And if there is no model on how humans think, there cant be a model to churn out drafts.

brihaspati" :

1. The first italicized part, is most illuminating. For it presupposes the existence of a certain "normal" behaviour from which certain humans "deviate". That assumption in itself is a "model". ....

2. The second sentence of the first italicized part is also extremely perceptive. It recognizes that draft making itself is a modelling process. A model is a simplification and simpler conceptualization of reality. As such models shed less deterministic factors to retain the bare minimum that appear to explain "most" of observed phenomena in a given context. A model automatically recognizes, by the principle of Occam's razor, that it is a simplification and that hopefully only a small proportion of observations will "deviate".

3. That laws and drafts of laws are essentially models, is proved also by the impermanent nature of laws. For they have to be changed from time to time to accommodate reality.

4. The second italicized part, is even more interesting for me : DRAFTS of the laws are 1000 human minds making strategy to ensure that none works against collective, and at the same time, many human minds actively working to finds ways to work against collective for self-interest This again subconsciously creates a separate category of "collective" who appears as an additional player in the social game of law-making and imposing that law. Truly speaking, there can be no "collective". What appears as collective is the temporary apparent coalition of certain individuals who may have consented to agree on a single point. Problem, most often, this single point does not initially exist as a common point of agreement. Various factors can combine to develop this agreement.
1. The draft generally deals with one item at a time. eg consider "Draft for Recall of PM". This draft will deal with very very few specific points. Where as ideology deals with too many things. Ideologies are vague and always subject to interpretation. Where as well written drafts, which clearly spell out discretionary powers, are seldom vague. So comparing draft and ideologies are like comparing rabbits and elephants, and then saying "see, both do have some weight".

Dictatorship is when a small group controls society. When laws are enacted with explicit approval of majority, and citizens have procedures to replace the officers in power, calling it a dictatorship is only a rhetoric. And a draftless leader is more likely to have dictatorial mindset than a leader with drafts. Because when a leader gives drafts before coming into power, he is giving full opportunity to commons to agree, disagree and also force leaders to make changes which majority wants. The draftless leader is avoiding drafts with a purpose -- he does not want majority to give an option to have control over laws. The draftless leader after power will have option of making any draft he wants, or he can even default on promise to make that law. The very act of giving draft BEFORE coming into power shows that the leader is more democratic than a draftless leader, who does not want commons to have any say on the drafts. A draftless leader is a dictator out of power, but wants to get into power via public support. So he gives eloberate slogans, world views and rosy pictures to attract masses and once they vote him into power, he wants to act in his own way without constraints. This is the ONLY reason why he evades giving drafts, as drafts would deny him freedom to act in his own way once he comes into power.

3-4. As I explained, one draft deals with very very small issue at a time, where as ideologies tend to deal with tons of things. Ideology makes attempt of summarizing behavior of crores of humans on 1000s of issues. Where as draft focuses on behavior of crores of humans in 1-2 issues at a time only.

Collective is not separate player. The 114 cr commons or 71 crore adult commons is what I call as collective. In fact, I seldom use word collective - I mostly use word "114 cr commons".
The process by which this initial idea is foisted on a society is a relevant procedure of "legitimization". If you look carefully at this process, you can see, that almost no known example exists where all or even the majority initially agree or participae in the process of legitimization to all aspects of the laws being proposed by a group which has already reached consensus within itself.

Like in the case of the Constituent Assembly, or the American Founding Fathers, this is virtually a small elite group which appoints itself. What the general society does, in fortunate circumstances, is to agree to this elite group to formulate laws. How many Indians did really participate pr play a role in formulating and vetting the drafts proposed by the Constituent Assembly. The fact that law-making remains an "elite" modelling game, is indicated by ease with which individuals like JLN could quietly obliterate the recommendations for UCC given by the Constituent Assembly. The "collective" was too small, too insignificant to oppose such casual gaming.
Back in 1770s, there were no known communication means to communicate with majority. Also, Founding Fathers of US were drafting under hostile environment --- they were anticipating retaliatory attack from UK. But even then, at the State levels, many had referendum before approval of the State Constitution. And it was not always the case that commons gave blind approval. eg in 1778, Massachusetts voters rejected the proposed constitution by 5:1 and forced the legislators to make changes. Now consider India, where JLN never gave opportunity to Indian voters to reject Indian Constitution.

---

Drafts are inescapable reality. The drafting of laws is something everyone has to do -- be Hitler or Jefferson or JLN. They may avoid it deliberately when they wish or they may do it themselves or delegate it. What differentiates democrat from a dictator is that : a democrat would show the drafts to the voters BEFORE he comes into power, where as a person with dictatorial mindset will evade all discussions on drafts so that he has minimal public pressure on him after he is elected.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

shaardula wrote:In India they put high premium on consensus(t,p). (t,p) indicates dependence on time and percentage of population in favour. ....
The Indian elitemen give zero value to consensus. The phrase "pls dont hurry, lets wait for consensus" is used ONLY when commons are demanding a law that elitemen do not want. Otherwise,when elitemen want a law, they bulldoze it even against wish and will of commons, and dont give a damn about consensus. eg consider SEZ law or law of giving product patents to medicine. No MP or intellectual (hires of elitemen) even asked for consensus - they just bulldozed these laws.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Abhi_Gji,
Arthasastra and Ashoka's edicts both are elite, and most likely to be individual attempts to impose a legal and behavioural framework. However, Ashokan edicts also show elements of "autobiography". So, the latter perhaps reflects more of "image-construction" as evident in works of later military-dictator-commanders - like the diaries of "Gaullic campaigns" of Caesar, and the autobiography dictated by Napoleon in his second and final spate of imprisonment.

The fact that Arthasastra did survive as a text (as far as I know R.D.Shyamasastry retrieved a copy from South India - significantly it was never found in North India), shows that it was sufficiently well-regarded among the "elite" to be smuggled out, copied. and preserved in areas more likely to be out of reach of "accidental" and "natural" and never "deliberate" burning at the hands of peaceful and culturally advanced faiths who peacefully migrated into North India. In fact, significantly, most such works were retrieved from the "south".

In this sense, Arthasastra is an early "drafting attempt" in classical times, and its value was recognized sufficiently early. We have bo way of knowing whether it really got approved by the "commons", or whether there was any real procedure for getting it appoved as such. It is addressed to the "prince" and thereby indicates quite clearly the procedure by which legal reforms were undertaken and "who" decided for the commons.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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RM, that fact that JLN could get away with not giving the Indian "commons" the choice to reject does indicate something, isnt it? That the choice is "given" by an elite, it is not usually a right exercized consciously by the "commons".

In fact the small sizes of the elite in the American states, who formed the bulk of the legislators, can make participation and approval a necessity. That seems like all the commons participating, just as in certain Greek city states, "all" citizens (not female, not slaves) of a small Greek city could assemble and approve.

When the commons are much larger in comparison to elite, the elite still only takes its own small group approval, but this then no longer appears as the whole "commons".
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shaardula »

brihaspati wrote:Abhi_Gji,
The fact that Arthasastra did survive as a text (as far as I know R.D.Shyamasastry retrieved a copy from South India - significantly it was never found in North India), shows that it was sufficiently well-regarded among the "elite" to be smuggled out, copied. and preserved in areas more likely to be out of reach of "accidental" and "natural" and never "deliberate" burning at the hands of peaceful and culturally advanced faiths who peacefully migrated into North India. In fact, significantly, most such works were retrieved from the "south".
aside:
there is a kautilya vrutta right next to oriental research institute,in UoM campus to commemorate this. recently sudhamurthy of infosys got some renovations & restorations done to ORI. shama shastri of ORI, and gaNapati shastri from tiruvananthapuram big kautilya masters.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Thanks for raising this! I highly repect both these scholars. In fact I still find Shastriji's translation the best, and it is more honest and unabashed than the later and more "modern" ones. I fondly preserve his first edition translation of AS.

Political upheavals -"rashtrabiplava", usually was traumatic obviously for a large number of peoples. But on the other hand this perhaps meant some migrations of immense siginificance for the future of our nation. The fact that these texts were carried into the south for safe-keeping and traditions kept alive implies a network and cultural bond between widely distant groups. At that time there was no difficulty in accepting people from other regions as one's own as long as they culturally enriched their hosts and were culturally compatible in an essential sense and not just forms.

There must have been a consciousness of cultural commonality that was given precedence over local, regional or parochial considerations. For me, this is something to be retrieved and revived as an essential task of leadership. On the other hand without such submergence of numerous subidentities into an overwhelming one, no leadership for the nation can emerge.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

brihaspati wrote:1. RM, that fact that JLN could get away with not giving the Indian "commons" the choice to reject does indicate something, isnt it? That the choice is "given" by an elite, it is not usually a right exercized consciously by the "commons".

2. In fact the small sizes of the elite in the American states, who formed the bulk of the legislators, can make participation and approval a necessity. That seems like all the commons participating, just as in certain Greek city states, "all" citizens (not female, not slaves) of a small Greek city could assemble and approve.

3. When the commons are much larger in comparison to elite, the elite still only takes its own small group approval, but this then no longer appears as the whole "commons".
2. The States of US in 1780s were not "small", and even if India was much larger in 1950, the technology of 1950 makes it a less daunting task than in 1780. As far as "asking commons" goes, technology or logistics are mere excuses not reasons. If US states could take referendum in 1780s, so could have nation of India in 1950.

1. JLN could get away because commons in India did not have weapons. Back in 1780s, commons in US were armed to teeth. Much of the Continental Army which had defeated British consisted of commons. So the elitemen in 1780s in US were helpless against wish and will of commons, and so referendum had to be granted. The elitemen of US in 1780s could see that if commons had used weapons and defeated the British, the same commons can also use weapons against local elitemen and force them to flee. So the elitemen agreed for referendum. Otherwise, elitemen in US too did not want referendum - as seen by the fact that Virgina lawmakers did not opt for referendum (Thomas Jefferson had insisted on referendum, but his letter reached 10 days after Constituent Assembly had announced Constitution, and dissolved itself). So level of democracy of many factors depends of how many per capita guns/weapons commons have. When commons are gunless, the elitemen just use policemen to crush commons, and so there is no need for referendums.

3. Athens population was 60000 adult males and are was less than few 10s of sqkm , and so an Assembly of all citizens in one large ground is possible. Modern day nations are larger in population and size and so "all gather at one place on one day" procedure code is not possible. But by creating a procedure by which commons can make modifications as and when they want, participation of commons is very much possible even though they are crores in number and scattered all over 1000s of sqkm.

This is why Jefferson introduced procedure of referendum in Virginia Constitution. The referendum procedure creates a way by which commons can make a change even against the wish of elitemen. And since such procedure exists, the lawmakers sense the change in advance, and make it themselves lest referendum would become a norm and reduce their powers forever. But JLN refused to introduce referendum procedure in Indian Constitution because he believed in "rule by elitemen" and did not want a system where will of commons can overrule wish of elitemen. And the commons could not force JLN to put referendum procedure, as commons had no weapons to force JLN to do so. And now since commons in India dont have any ways to change laws, the elitemen take commons for a ride, and keep making laws that would fleece commons and enrich the elitemen. So commons run towards naxals, missionaries etc for protection, food, cloth, medicine and English education, and the nation is seeing endless stream of Lalgadhs. The trendline is not good.

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Many confuse small size with democracy. A common argument given is that "See, vibrant democracy was possible in Athens because it was small in size". Well, it was because of democracy that such a small sized Athens became so strong that it could rule over a large area and left an impact that we remember even today. Athens had only 60000 adult males. To that, add 60000 females and some 120,000 children. So free population was 240,000. Such tiny population had over 300,000 slaves in Athens and had dominated territories around Athens which would be 10-20 times its population and size. Essentially, the democracy they followed made them so strong that they could enslave so many people and dominate so many others. So instead of saying that "democracy is possible only in small region/population", a more accurate statement would be "democracy makes small population so powerful that it can dominate over much larger groups".

As population/size increases , one only needs to change the procedure code so that larger population can participate. Thats about it. Otherwise size and democracy had nothing in common or nothing against.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Increasing size increases the possibility of corruption of proper representation and participation. It is exactly the point about the technological level for the given society which may be responsible for the inability to ensure "proper" representation. The larger the size, more difficult the actual physical and direct participation in decision making, and hence the greater need for representations and procedures - each of which introduce more and more opportunities to corrupt the process.

This is not a cricticism of democracy, it is a pointer to why size matters. When we had paper ballot, we had a host of problems of corruption of "popular will or choice". When EVM comes up, we have another set of problems. The staged, layered, voting procedure and system is a necessity of the reality of the size, and spread of the population. This of necessity brings in opportunities for corruption, and as longa s opportunities are there, those who benefit from such corruption will always utilize them.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote:There must have been a consciousness of cultural commonality that was given precedence over local, regional or parochial considerations. For me, this is something to be retrieved and revived as an essential task of leadership. On the other hand without such submergence of numerous subidentities into an overwhelming one, no leadership for the nation can emerge.
That something, IMO, is Vedas. I cannot argue with someone who views them as a book or religion. But Vedas in reality are the standard (pramana) that are built around Dharma (laws of consciousness). That is why any thought process, incarnation, yagna must be Veda sammata (as per the standard) otherwise it is non-vedic. We can see many references in Ramayana and Mahabharata where the gurus/rishis not only offer the Dharmic solution to a given issue, but also sight (almost every time) the Veda pramana in addition to traditional/historical references.

When I am aware of a standard (in this case Vedas), I can easily understand, appreciate, and accept anyone with the same standards in their consciousness, values, practices and lifestyles. That is what united Bharata Rashtra for eons.

JMT
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

RamaYji,
your line of thinking is much appreciated. However, expanding that line is not feasible here. Maybe you should write up your thoughts in a single file, which we can discuss otherwise. Unification is a necessity of the hour, and diversity needs to be submerged to a certain extent for any credible national leadership of unification to emerge.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shaardula »

B,
some hypotheses.

first two categories of diffusion: one theological, the other social. with significant overlap between the two. but for the issue we are considering there may be significant distinctions.

theologically, it is more a matter of distribution rather than distinction. and the tree of indic theology was like the banyan tree with multiple centers. for example, since early times SI has been a recognized center for various types of paaThis of the vedas. what is now rajasthan, bihar etc have there own "16 families". and so on. so if you wanted certain type paTha or a certain hotra you invited people from those regions. many communities remember their migration from the gangetic plains, but it is interesting that when they moved they took entire the "guild" with them and where ever they moved that place became the new center of excellence for that skill.

parallel to this theological distribution, there was also a cultural diffusion.
#1. rate of this diffusion was small.
#2. this diffusion was not competitive.
#3. this diffusion was bidirectional.

cultural diffusion: one thing i have observed is that this diffusion has been an almost exclusive feature of the higher levels - multilingual, multicultural types tend to be people amongst scholars, artistes, warriors and perhaps artisans with special skills. these were all people who could afford mobility or could get sponsors for their migration. the rooted class like shepherds(who were quite powerful politically) for example dont have this level diffusion. and since groups with cultural diffusion were small groups with exclusive skills that were additive rather than redundant, assimilation and accommodation was easy. now the scene is different.

but most important point is this. the groups that were diffusive and absorbing were enlightened people who were actually seeking ideas. up until the industrial revolution, indian ideas were relevant, especially in fields known as vignyaana. now the definition of relevant ideas has changed.

we see this clearly in mysore, for example. there are two sets of diffused people in mysore and an entire class of undiffused people. the cultural(music, arts, litt) elite of old mysore and new science and academic elite of new mysore. reverence and curiosity for vignyaana continues amongst the seekers in this group.

and then there is an entire bunch of mysoreans outside these two groups, who have absorbed some of the reflected vignyaana of the these two groups, but have traditionally remained rooted. they have also found a revival of their own voice, and have started to assert themselves culturally, socially, politically and economically starting from the period of the penultimate wodeyar. there is a similar parallel in 3 other epicenters of ka, bangalore, mangalore and dharwad.

it is also interesting that resurgence of these peoples also has meant that these people are the new carriers of the old legacy that was the purview of exclusive groups. examples of this are numerous, including the more-brahminical-than-thou final rites of the most famous shepherd of our times, RajKumar. You see similar thing happening amongst the Telugu elite too.

But i will give the example of two of some of our poets/writers of our time. brahmanas like Karanth, Adiga and Anathamurthy, for example are the greatest proponents of native vignyaana and language. where as a kuvempu, who being a land holding vokkaliga, earned his spurs as the greatest poet of our times in ka, in heavily sanskritic domains and wrote stuff like oh nanna chetana aagu nee aniketana, not to mention sri ramayana darshanam, in a samskruta meter, even as he was a self awoved ka centric native thinker. this at a time when the "brahminical" Adiga was evoking sensuous imagery in local language with phrases like akki aarisuvaaga(as you de-chaffed paddy). i hope you appreciate the nuance here and see the message.

the scope and extent of diffusion has changed in modern times. and so have the agents. i think we should give some lattitude to the new agents, for many of them are seeking and acting completely within the indic sphere, even if their metaphors are new. we should not confuse their political aspirations with cultural dilution and allow some lattitude for the former.

all this might be an indic response to modernism. where the traditional elite have succumbed, perhaps others have picked up the slack.
Last edited by shaardula on 07 Jul 2009 06:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shaardula »

narendra modi is another example of this. i think we are are making for up for all the slack in evolution and re-normalization that got stalled as a consequence of being under siege.

for these reasons i also feel we should give some latitude to mayawati. we should make space and let them them own and recreate indic ideas in their own image. meta principles are not going to change for they are people of the earth. all that we lose is some of the irrationality.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

brihaspati wrote:Increasing size increases the possibility of corruption of proper representation and participation.
In a "well designed" administrative system, the inefficiency is any will not be proportional to N, but will be proportional to log(N). And the increase in size is often accompanied with vast improvement in technology by which citizens can supervise the officers, provided laws to supervise those officers exist. The problem today is absence of these laws, not size.
It is exactly the point about the technological level for the given society which may be responsible for the inability to ensure "proper" representation. The larger the size, more difficult the actual physical and direct participation in decision making, and hence the greater need for representations and procedures - each of which introduce more and more opportunities to corrupt the process.
Yes, greater the need for procedures, but not representation. eg The technology today enables people to take 100-200 decisions directly every year. But how many decisions do we take directly as of today? Only 3 in 5 years (electing Corporator, electing MLA and electing MP). So the lack of direct control is more due to absence of procedures, not size.
This of necessity brings in opportunities for corruption, and as longa s opportunities are there, those who benefit from such corruption will always utilize them.
Not if citizens have procedures to punish the decision makers. eg Today we in India have no procedure to imprison a Supreme Court judge, Minister or even am IAS, IPS. And thats the reason why they openly collect bribe. Once procedures to imprison them, confiscate their ill gotten wealth etc come in the hands of commons, these people will learn to behave. Once again, the reason is lack of procedure, not size.

----
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

shaardulaji,
some profound thoughts. Especially the SI angle. What is desirable in fact is a revival of the mindset of mobility and multicultural, multilingual accommodation and acceptance. The theological diffusion probably is the underlying foundational framework that allowed this to happen on the superstructural cultural level. One of the reasons, I have not been able to think through to the end any line of development that tries to avoid that foundational aspect, is the very connection you observe.

I arrived at the necessity of the cultural continuity and pre-existing commonality rooted at least partly in the theological diffusion, after trying out alternative models of unification stemming from "western thoughts". It is agonizing for me to see that many are actually scared of this realization and try to deny or crush the idea completely. But, for such a huge society as that of the Indic, denying and bypassing this diffusion is not only impossible but also dangerous. Such bypassing inordinately complicates the process and creates fractures and damages for which Indic as a whole suffers.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote:RamaYji,
your line of thinking is much appreciated. However, expanding that line is not feasible here. Maybe you should write up your thoughts in a single file, which we can discuss otherwise. Unification is a necessity of the hour, and diversity needs to be submerged to a certain extent for any credible national leadership of unification to emerge.
Brihaspati-ji,

we will take this offline.

Regards.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

shaardula wrote
narendra modi is another example of this. i think we are are making for up for all the slack in evolution and re-normalization that got stalled as a consequence of being under siege.
for these reasons i also feel we should give some latitude to mayawati. we should make space and let them them own and recreate indic ideas in their own image. meta principles are not going to change for they are people of the earth. all that we lose is some of the irrationality.
Two individuals I try to cautiously avoid discussing! :mrgreen: Narendraji will forever be under the burden of the fallout of the complete control of reconstruction and editing of Indian history in the hands of the Congress and the Left. But he divides, at least as claimed by his opponents - the Indic into the paltry minority Abrahamic and the overwhelming majority - of non-Abrahamic. Mayavatiji, on the other hand merrily subdivides the Indic not only into Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic, but goes on dividing the majority non-Abrahamic into as many subdivisions as possible. Hers is the path of subdividing until every identity becomes a minority. That is the path of those among our ancestors who ossified the subdivisions of our society, preventing the pooling and optimum use of talent from all levels and corners in the interest of the nation, creating multiple pseudo-nations within the nation all distrusting each other and jostling for pre-eminence over all others.

Both are perhaps significant figures for posterity. But tragic figures to an extent. One, for unfulfilled hopes of national consolidation, and the other for being part of the spectrum of forces behind that non-fulfillment.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Unless she gets Sanskritized like the Mauryas and countless other rulers.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The hapless Chanakya who decides to give the "deeksha" to this particular potential "Maurya" - you wouldn't want to give this particular blessing to your worst enemy. :mrgreen:
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Brishaspatiji, Dont become Shukraacharya vis a vis this vamana.

There are wheels within wheels.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 757482.cms

If Taslima Nasreen is right about India, what does that say about India's ability to be a self respecting nation ? Does such an India have any capability and will at all to think out its strategic scenarios and pursue them with even some minimal rigor ?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

ramanaji,
actually just being brihaspati, and not shukracharya. This "ruler" in particular does not show the abilities of a Bali. More a ashwathama who cannot withdraw the missiles launched. It is "brihaspati's" duty to warn the "devas". :)
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

sukhdeo wrote
If Taslima Nasreen is right about India, what does that say about India's ability to be a self respecting nation ? Does such an India have any capability and will at all to think out its strategic scenarios and pursue them with even some minimal rigor ?
Taslima Nasreen is partly right and partly wrong. For example the British Crown once ruled India. For all practical purposes they ran all elements of politics and administration in India. But do they represent India and Indians? Just because a certain rashtryia establishment at a certain time point in history decides to behave as non-Indics, does not mean the whole nation can be condemned for such behaviour.

Taslima Nasreen could not be supported, because at this time point Bharat has no ideological foundation behind its rashtryia structure. It is a free form, free floating jellyfish in the ocean of ideologies. Its ruling elite and structures have imposed a total ideological vacuum where no normative scales are present to judge and rank prefernces and outcomes. This is the best possible scenario for any opportunist coterie to weild power for the people have no officialy recognized ideological scale to judge the actions of any government or party. It also is necessary to have a dynasty and courtier based regime. As in the absence of independent ideological framework for the society, all decisions will be looked up to in the dynasty.

I have written before, that Taslima should have been solidly protected, and offered asylum, citizenship or residence with full rights. If there was suficient show of anger by the non-Muslims in her favour, the GOI would have been forced to follow. The ideological vacuum has sapped us so much that we no longer can identify who represent people and forces worth protecting by the Indic. We do not know what and whom we really need to protect.

But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by RajeshA »

brihaspati wrote:But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
Yesss! The madder hulk gets, the stronger hulk gets! :twisted:
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by vsudhir »

I have written before, that Taslima should have been solidly protected, and offered asylum, citizenship or residence with full rights. If there was suficient show of anger by the non-Muslims in her favour, the GOI would have been forced to follow. The ideological vacuum has sapped us so much that we no longer can identify who represent people and forces worth protecting by the Indic. We do not know what and whom we really need to protect.

But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
One quaint theory I heard, more like post facto rationalization was about the Adi Shakaracharya's prescient trip to establish the 4 dhaams mere yrs before the islamic invasions struck Bharatam. Apparently he foresaw what was to come and established the 4 as the outer boundaries within which the Indic core would maintain itself, or at least, survive.

Its striking that Bengal and Asom are east of the eastern Dhaam (in Puri). So is J&K north of the northern one (Kedar and badri). Instructive that the borders of TSP are not far west of the western one (Veraval, Gujrat). About the southern one, I dunno.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Well what if we look at it the other way? Because Adi Shankar stopped at those four corners, what he considered possibly "vraatya" was later lost? This is the danger of saying "rungli rungliot" - this far and no further. We have to look beyond and establish control to safeguard what is inside. Holding a fortress wall is not good enough, the enemy should be defeated at the approaches to the wall.

Also deciding from before, that a certain area outside of mine does not belong to my domain of concern - automatically creates separate identities. The same logic that drives the Congress since an obstinate JLN who consistently opposed the ML before the Partition, suddenly drew up the Partition plan with Mountbatten and post-partition became the most avid protector of separate religious identity of the IM. It is because behind it all, is that ingrained belief of "us and them" - IM in a deeper level within the Congress psyche is not Indic at all - not part of the family. Their religious leadership and societal structures are therefore treated as guests, whose vandalism or uncouthness cannot be criticized out of politeness, whose unruly destructive children cannot be thrashed, but pampered. If they were considered part of the Indic family, treatment would have been completely different.

Fixing territorial limitations should be realized for what they are - temporary conveniences. They should not be walls behind which we cower.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by derkonig »

RajeshA wrote:
brihaspati wrote:But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
Yesss! The madder hulk gets, the stronger hulk gets! :twisted:
But what or when shall be the tipping point?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul M »

vsudhir wrote: One quaint theory I heard, more like post facto rationalization was about the Adi Shakaracharya's prescient trip to establish the 4 dhaams mere yrs before the islamic invasions struck Bharatam. Apparently he foresaw what was to come and established the 4 as the outer boundaries within which the Indic core would maintain itself, or at least, survive.

Its striking that Bengal and Asom are east of the eastern Dhaam (in Puri). So is J&K north of the northern one (Kedar and badri). Instructive that the borders of TSP are not far west of the western one (Veraval, Gujrat). About the southern one, I dunno.
I don't know about the prescient bit but Adi Shankaracharya's contribution to the continued survival of India with at least some amount of vitality can't be ignored.

how many know for instance that Sri Ramkrishna and Swami Vivekananda's RK Mission are a subset of the Sringeri Math ?
without Adi Shankaracharya, there might have been no RamKrishna or Vivekananda.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Atri »

derkonig wrote:
brihaspati wrote:But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
But what or when shall be the tipping point?
IMHO, the tipping point will come when there is global showdown of power. I am referring to some large-scale warfare preferably in SE-Asia and north-Indian plains simultaneously.

It is then when the 'Bhaarat', which brihaspatiji is referring to, will understand the real identity. The fear of great loss will make Bhaarat understand that it is sitting on a great treasure which should be protected at all costs. That great fear will dispel all the confusions in the mind about the motives of the ancestors in doing what they did for the protection of that great treasure. The name of that treasure is Dharma. That will be the "yada yada hi Dharmasya" moment..

This beating which India is getting is slowly making them realize the existence of this treasure.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by RajeshA »

derkonig wrote:
brihaspati wrote:But, mark my words, India should not be written off. It is getting the right amount of "beating" that will form its core. Dont equate a GOI, or this or that party, with Bharata.
RajeshA wrote:Yesss! The madder hulk gets, the stronger hulk gets! :twisted:
But what or when shall be the tipping point?
Every time there is a terrorist attack on India, every time there is much debating, whether we should hit back, and every time the leadership, the BRFites even, come to the conclusion, that whatever we do, we will not be able to convert the retaliation into a decisive victory, that there is some aspects of power, that we still lack, a lack which will come to haunt us.

We fear if go into war unprepared, the aftermath of an inconclusive war, would seep our strength, make us more vulnerable for the wolves up North and in the West. So we curse our inadequacy and drink the vish. Every time we drink this poison, we promise ourselves that we will accelerate our growth, we will grow stronger, sturdier.

But we grow more confident on the world stage every passing year. New generations take over, who see ever less reason to bow in front of other powers. With every generation, we let fall another coat of mental colonialism. Perhaps it may seem strange how new generations who seem to be ever more Westernized, would become the fortress of Indic renewal, but their Westernized outlook and skills in the early years just make them realize, that these foreign fortresses are something they can easily conquer, and after some mellowing come back to find out whether they can also live up to the high standards of their own civilization. So I fear not.

As our national power grows, as our confidence grows, as our roots grow deeper into the Dharmic soil of Bharat Mata, we shall one day see, on a clear morning, that we are ready.

That will be the tipping point. It will come when it comes, but come it shall!
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

There is a theory that Moses deliberately wandered in the Sinai desert for 40 years, so that the generation of adults that came out of Egypt with their cultural pre-conditioning, die out. This theory need not be reality - or could be part of a more complex historical reality, which is OT. However, what is relevant for us, is that in the next 30 years, a generation will be replaced by a new, more indigenously educated one. Whatever be the attempts to have ideological control by the Congress and the Left over the psyche of the next generations, this new generation will seek its own way to power and global role. The older psyche of toeing the British imperialist thinking and suppressing the "dharmic" root of the Indic came from a deep alienation of the ruling elite from its own cultural foundations. Their estimate of the Indic as powerless and weak, and inferior to their "by birth" claims of legitimacy, led to their alliance and reliance on the "invader" as a supporting and counterbalancing force to stay on in power.

The hold of this "theology" will get weaker, as more and more, knowledge and methods of obtaining knowledge, get out of regime or state control. We have to wait for this generational transition.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by rkirankr »

brihaspati wrote:There is a theory that Moses deliberately wandered in the Sinai desert for 40 years, so that the generation of adults that came out of Egypt with their cultural pre-conditioning, die out. This theory need not be reality - or could be part of a more complex historical reality, which is OT. However, what is relevant for us, is that in the next 30 years, a generation will be replaced by a new, more indigenously educated one. Whatever be the attempts to have ideological control by the Congress and the Left over the psyche of the next generations, this new generation will seek its own way to power and global role. The older psyche of toeing the British imperialist thinking and suppressing the "dharmic" root of the Indic came from a deep alienation of the ruling elite from its own cultural foundations. Their estimate of the Indic as powerless and weak, and inferior to their "by birth" claims of legitimacy, led to their alliance and reliance on the "invader" as a supporting and counterbalancing force to stay on in power.

The hold of this "theology" will get weaker, as more and more, knowledge and methods of obtaining knowledge, get out of regime or state control. We have to wait for this generational transition.
Though I am very much impressed with your posts Brihaspatiji , I would like to differ with you on this particular one. Iam not a pessimist, but looking at the current education scenario, I doubt if such a thing will happen. Probably the reliance on "invader" will be replaced by "deep appreciation" of certain lineage. Also whitewashing of certain inconvenient historic facts (inconvenient for the left wing intellectuals) will also contibute to this dhimmification.
My generation, meaning who were in high schools in later part of 80s , we still had the strong influence of our culture and media was less intrusive.
Post 90s media also plays a strong role in shaping and influencing minds.
Just imagine what Ram sethu destruction plan would have done in the minds of people in late 80s and 90s. Now I think no one cares.
Education is slowly being modified to produce efficient /non independent thinking machinery who look like Indians but are actually not.
I really hope I can share your optimism or atleast please let me know the basis for that.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

rkirankrji,
I would simply ask not to lose heart. What we want will happen, if we "will" it sufficiently intensely. For the moment, just consider the time period in Indian society, 90 years ago- 1919. This is the time period when people like Sardar are changing from brown sahibs to khadi clad activists. But think of society in general at the time. If you were living at the time would you consider 1947 at all possible? Would you look at the apparent general acceptance of British rule at the period, the educational stranglehold of the ruling imperial regime designed to turn out faithful and dimwitted servants and slaves, and think that 47 would be possible?

History shows that large consolidated cultures that have survived beyond military-political regimes and rashtras, and can exist independent of such well-defined territorial and political entities, also produce a significant sense of anomie and alienation if the members of such society are forced to deviate from the core of their civilization. The more this deviation is attempted in the Bharatyia case, the greater will be the pull back to the roots. The Islamics tried it for a thousand years leading to regeneration in characters like Shivaji or Ranjit Singhji. The British tried it, leading to characters like Ballavbhai and Subhasji. But more important than these icons, they produced the less known, unsumg, millions without whose dedication, sacrifice and commitments, 47 would not have happened.

JMT.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

MMS appears to be very keen on getting India the UNSC seat. Or the media is focusing on this aspect only. Sarcozy is making all the right noises. Apart from the nuke and defence supplies business potential, what else is France saying here? There is a certain schoolof thought within the EU which proposes India and Japans permanent membership of the UNSC. But they also subtly hint that the obstruction is going to come from veto-weilding PRC. So India may have to accommodate "PRC concerns". It is possible that Europeans and USA wants the costs and risks of gloabal policing to be shared. However whats really in it for India, unless that position is used to resolve issues in its own favour.

If Sarcozy is speaking of "global role" for India, and MMS is waxing eloquent, what are the pressures being put on India to consider "concessions"? Is it possible that the Anglo-Irish Good Friday type agreement that I have written about in the "strategic scenario thread" is being readied for Kashmir?
RajeshA
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by RajeshA »

brihaspati wrote:If Sarcozy is speaking of "global role" for India, and MMS is waxing eloquent, what are the pressures being put on India to consider "concessions"? Is it possible that the Anglo-Irish Good Friday type agreement that I have written about in the "strategic scenario thread" is being readied for Kashmir?
India should continue with its G-4 Intiative for UNSC Expansion. The 4 should consider doing some Satyagraha together at the UN and refuse to abide by any UNSC decisions which none of G-4 deems as important for it. With time others who don't like UNSC decisions would join in, in G-4's Satyagraha. This would undermine UNSC's legitimacy. Japan and Germany can also refuse to pay its dues to UNO.

Then we shall see, how PRC's or USA's hesitation to give G-4, what is their due, impinges on their loss of power and prestige. America would not like the break down of the international system, and neither would the others. That would pretty much isolate PRC.

The vetoing system should also be reformed. Either each permanent member receives only a half-veto, or UK, France and Germany are aggregated into one EU seat in the UNSC.
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