Indian Military Aviation

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jan 2010 18:21

anand_sankar wrote: A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Jan 2010 19:23

anand_sankar wrote:Talking of the N-ALH, there is an incident that I can now reveal.

I had a close friend working with HAL who was present at a meeting between them and the Indian Navy. The MoD was trying to mediate so that everyone went home with something. The navy did not want ANYTHING to do with the N-ALH. A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

Representing the services, the navy men had keep their cool but one officer couldnt bite his lip any more. He told the brightspark, of course politely but it meant, since we are discussing tearing holes, why dont we tear you a new a-hole.

The N-ALH is a compromise and is dead, confirmed by another source, a classmates dad who was the programme head from the navy side. A few will be pushed down the navys throat but they will do utility and fly littoral patrols.

I suggest that you do not state the names or even events bu whocha person can get into some trouble with some wise MOD Babu. "I had a close friend working with HAL who was present at a meeting between them and the Indian Navy. " it may not be very difficult to locate that person.

ALH or N ALH is meant to augment and perhaps replace the Chetaks and Cheetahs. It is NOT an ASW bird in the category of Seaking or Kamovs. They are for "utility and littoral patrols".

In general IN is very receptive of indigenous products. I personally feel that IN must have done their homework well an find that ALH does not seem to fit in their ideas.

K

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Jan 2010 20:24

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
‘It’s India’s decade in aviation’

Around the same time, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, the sole defence aircraft maker based in Bengaluru, will fly for the first time the Light Combat Helicopter, an attack helicopter that could improve the armed forces capability against the enemy in high altitudes

The new chopper, which will be an armed version of HAL’s flagship advanced light helicopter Dhruv, would be flown for at least 500 hours before it is certified.
ISRO will also partner HAL in the country’s Rs2,500 crore passenger plane project.

The regional transport aircraft, or RTA-70, being designed to carry 70-90 passengers on short-haul routes, is part of an ambitious programme to build civilian planes and bridge the gap in aeronautical expertise with countries like China and Brazil.
http://www.sakaaltimes.com/SakaalTimesB ... 529125.htm

It's usual DDM.....HAL is partnering with NAL not ISRO for passenger plane project RTA-70. Since when did ISRO started building passenger planes.

In first paragraph they are referring to LCH....In the second they are thinking about LCH but are talking about Dhruv WSI. Again DDM

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 02 Jan 2010 20:39

HAL is partnering with NAL not ISRO for passenger plane project RTA-70. Since when did ISRO started building passenger planes

Better learn to pick up nuggets from garbage. How does this sound?

Isro to join project for passenger plane

India’s space agency will be made a partner in the country’s Rs2,500 crore passenger plane project so it can share its technology expertise, infrastructure and programme management skills and help avoid the mistakes and delays seen in previous projects.

The so-called regional transport aircraft, or RTA-70, being designed to carry 70-90 passengers on short-haul routes, is India’s ambitious attempt to build a civilian plane and bridge the gap in aeronautical expertise with countries such as China and Brazil.

The Indian Space Research Organisation, or Isro, “will be part of a consortium,” said G. Madhavan Nair, chairman of the research council of National Aerospace Laboratories, or NAL, a public-funded agency focused on civil aerospace technologies. “NAL will lead the project.”

Nair, a former head of Isro, said the plane project would be run by an independent commercial body, with public and private partners, including an overseas aerospace firm. He did not name the private firms.

The plane project is yet to get government sanction but is listed in the science and technology plan in the 11th Plan that ends in 2012.

Once approved, the plane project will take around six years to build and be certified for operations, said C.G. Krishnadas Nair, president of the Society of Indian Aerospace Technologies and Industries, or Siati, a body that promotes home-grown enterprises in the aerospace and defence sectors.

So far, India’s attempts to build civilian planes has had little success. NAL has built two civilian planes so far: Hansa, a two-seater trainer, is being flown in some flying clubs but is not a commercial success yet. Saras, a 14-seater plane project in the works for nearly two decades, has been suspended till an inquiry is completed into the crash of a prototype in March that killed two pilots.

In the late 1990s, military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL, and Franco-Italian manufacturer ATR dropped a plan to make turboprop planes jointly in Kanpur, citing limited market opportunity.

But economic growth since then and the boom in India’s civil aviation sector has presented a fresh opportunity to build planes locally. NAL officials say the sweet spot would be planes that can carry 70-90 passengers over the short haul (up to 1,000km, say, Bangalore to Mumbai) and does not compete with planes of large firms such as Boeing Co. or Airbus SAS.

Currently, only NAL and HAL build planes in India. In December, Mahindra group become the first private Indian conglomerate to acquire the capability to build aircraft when it bought two Australian aerospace firms for up to Rs175 crore over five years.

For the RTA-70 project, HAL is the manufacturing partner and firms such as Infosys Technologies Ltd and the local unit of US technology firm Honeywell International Inc. are building some technology components, Satish Chandra, convenor for the RTA programme at NAL, said in a lecture on 30 September.

The plane is expected to consume around 30% less fuel than existing 70-100-seater passenger aircraft, and have half their maintenance costs through the use of special sensors and coatings. RTA-70 will be able to land and take off on small runways and use satellite navigation, Chandra said.

“We should make use of all resources (in aerospace) within the country. The aim is to make the project a success,” said Nair of Siati.

In addition to building rockets and launching satellites, Isro is building a capsule to carry astronauts into space and later to the moon; some of the facilities and technologies it uses for projects such as these could complement NAL’s plane programme. NAL, too, builds and tests technology for Isro’s programmes.

While Isro’s record of building rockets and launching satellites has improved over the years, it has seen its share of delays. The Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle, or GSLV rocket, with an indigenous cryogenic engine, was set for launch by January but has been delayed by at least a year.

Analysts caution that Isro’s bag is full with projects, including planetary and manned space missions, and even if it is used as a partner, the lead agency should take on the onus of completing the project.

“Why just Isro, you can use any resource available in the country, but the least you should do is to have one person or agency that should be accountable (for the project),” said retired Air Marshal T.J. Master, chairman of Master Aerospace Consultants (Pvt.) Ltd, an aerospace advisory. “It should be made a commercial success and that should be the drive.”

http://www.livemint.com/2009/12/2823522 ... passe.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jan 2010 21:02

About time on a game plan that was proposed a few decades ago.

Again, a Kargil syndrome. It seems that Brazil and China forced the Indian hand.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Jan 2010 21:05

Better learn to pick up nuggets from garbage. How does this sound?

http://www.livemint.com/2009/12/2823522 ... passe.html

My Mistake...

Didn't come across this news. Thanks

It's good to see everybody pitching in to make this project a success.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Jan 2010 22:57

But did the IN not lay down its requirements

From day 1 the ALH always had a naval version advertised??

Was that without any Naval backing??

It would be strange if the Navy had requirements and then did not follow it up as the bird was being developed.

I still do not understand how it cannot be better than the Chetak.

The Navy is not going toget the money for 100s of foreign helos - so what is it planning to do???

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Jan 2010 10:37

It will be a mistake if HAL-NAL-ISRO combine come up with an aircraft without military application. They should design it with possibility of rear loading ramp. If the MTA does not come up then we are again stuck without any An-32 replacement.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 11:01

AG, civilian airliner designs don't lend themselves well to military transport needs.

but given its size and probable role, if it comes within the next 10-15 years with a healthy dose of performance and reliability it will have many many military applications, AEW&C for IAF and IN, MPA, smaller AAR craft, airborne command aircraft, dedicated intel gathering aircraft, battlespace monitoring aircraft for army and so on, the list is virtually endless.
as of now we use a host of different aircraft in these roles, all from different manufacturers.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 03 Jan 2010 12:59

I believe that HAL was working on a Passenger "jet" with reported capacity of 100 passengers while NAL was working on Turboprop of 70 passengers. Hal version was had various reported versions from 100-150-200 while the NAL had proposed extended version of Saras 30 passengers, and RTA version of 50-70-90 passengers both in jet & turboprop versions

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Jan 2010 15:09

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories449.htm

the above link says

NAL has said that the third prototype of Saras, which would feature weight reduction to the extent of 500-kg, will fly in 2010. It will be equipped with the Engine Indicating and Crew Alert System (EICAS), and the autopilot. Right now, the aircraft prototype is a little heavier than required.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jan 2010 17:44

A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

must have attended a HRD course on lateral thinking or read the book on said topic by de bono.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Jan 2010 18:54

Singha wrote: A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

must have attended a HRD course on lateral thinking or read the book on said topic by de bono.

I have heard of out-of-box thinking. This is the first time I heard of out-of-ship thinking.

With such bright stars in MoD, who needs enemies !

Kersi

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jan 2010 20:48

Kersi D wrote:
Singha wrote: A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

must have attended a HRD course on lateral thinking or read the book on said topic by de bono.
I have heard of out-of-box thinking. This is the first time I heard of out-of-ship thinking.

With such bright stars in MoD, who needs enemies !

Kersi

The out of the box proposal was only to cut an opening in the forward bulkhead in the hanger so that the one forward facing blade
could be accommodated with the rest being folded.

The offer was politely declined. Apparently there is a whole lot of equipment forward of the forward bulkhead that is of more use than the white elephant.

The problem with organisations that think that they have a lock on the market and they can steam roller over all opposition is that they need to be brought down to mother earth just once for ugly reality to hit them hard.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jan 2010 20:59

Kersi D wrote:
anand_sankar wrote:Talking of the N-ALH, there is an incident that I can now reveal.

I had a close friend working with HAL who was present at a meeting between them and the Indian Navy. The MoD was trying to mediate so that everyone went home with something. The navy did not want ANYTHING to do with the N-ALH. A brightspark from the MoD then offered a solution -- since the rotors of the N-ALH cant fold all the way, why doesnt the navy cut holes on the sides of its ship hangars to accomodate the rotors.

Representing the services, the navy men had keep their cool but one officer couldnt bite his lip any more. He told the brightspark, of course politely but it meant, since we are discussing tearing holes, why dont we tear you a new a-hole.

The N-ALH is a compromise and is dead, confirmed by another source, a classmates dad who was the programme head from the navy side. A few will be pushed down the navys throat but they will do utility and fly littoral patrols.
I suggest that you do not state the names or even events bu whocha person can get into some trouble with some wise MOD Babu. "I had a close friend working with HAL who was present at a meeting between them and the Indian Navy. " it may not be very difficult to locate that person.

ALH or N ALH is meant to augment and perhaps replace the Chetaks and Cheetahs. It is NOT an ASW bird in the category of Seaking or Kamovs. They are for "utility and littoral patrols".

In general IN is very receptive of indigenous products. I personally feel that IN must have done their homework well an find that ALH does not seem to fit in their ideas.

K

I wouldn't worry too much.

Any one who has attended an HAL meet where the company is attempting to get a dodgy proposal quickly past some customer would know that there are tons and tons of hangers on from all parties concerned.

The HAL usually provides a superlative lunch on such occasions.
The dodgier the proposal, the more superlative the lunch.

House full without even standing room. Identification of personnel who attended is like sifting through the mangled bodies after a taliban celebration with IEDs.

More asses than heads.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Jan 2010 02:23

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/01/f ... thers.html

IN Pilots of the Black Panthers. great shot on Chhindits with one of the MiGs. (And the Ruski pilots who were flight testing or training with them)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Jan 2010 02:32

^^
First ever photograph, she claims.

All the shots in that pic were posted in BR months ago (except one shot perhaps).

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Jan 2010 02:40

Gaur wrote:^^
First ever photograph, she claims.
All the shots in that pic were posted in BR months ago (except one shot perhaps).

The group photo? Where was it posted? I dont remember seeing it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jan 2010 02:45

jagan I have seen it too, don't remember where. prolly at keypubs.

the PS job around it is new.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Jan 2010 02:51

Jagan wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
First ever photograph, she claims.
All the shots in that pic were posted in BR months ago (except one shot perhaps).
The group photo? Where was it posted? I dont remember seeing it.

Yes that too.
It was posted in Indian Navy thread. I am sure because I had saved it then.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 04 Jan 2010 02:55

Same pics on militaryphotos.net
Link

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Jan 2010 02:57

A Sharma wrote:Same pics on militaryphotos.net
Link

Lovely! - thanks for the link.

EDIT: Originals from here
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/in-flight_refueling/

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Jan 2010 14:50

Update on FGFA from Ajai Shukla...

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 05 Jan 2010 22:04

Indian air force counters birdstrike threat

The Indian air force's ornithology cell has devised an eco-friendly strategy to ward off the "invasion of avian varieties" at its bases.

The initiative comes after activities with the BAE Systems Hawk 132 advanced jet trainer were hampered at Bidar air base in north-west Karnataka by Greater Short-toed larks. An investigation found that the birds had migrated from Gujarat in north-west India due to sparse rain.

Grass near the runway at Bidar was kept longer to prevent birds from crowding there, while trees further away were also allowed to grow taller.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jan 2010 22:45

Rahul M wrote:jagan I have seen it too, don't remember where. prolly at keypubs.

the PS job around it is new.

so that makes it a scoop ?

there's plenty more on the Russian pilot.strizhi.ru site and these were posted on Keypubs and Militaryphotos.net as well as BRF many many days ago.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 05 Jan 2010 23:07

Chindits' tweet: Light Combat Helicopter to take its first flight in Jan 2010.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jan 2010 23:13

^^
Though generally, one can rely on chindits news to be crap as much as one can rely on a baboon's ass to be red and swollen, I think this time the news may be true. After all, LCH was due to fly by late Dec 09.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 06 Jan 2010 00:36

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2010 09:35

sankum wrote:India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

Can't resist this...

Does this mean that India will develop a 1.25th gen fighter?

Amit J · Post by **Amit J** » 06 Jan 2010 09:44

shiv wrote:
sankum wrote:India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter
Can't resist this...

Does this mean that India will develop a 1.25th gen fighter?

Gud Lord

That's funny, gud start to today

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Jan 2010 14:04

Implications & Extrapolate/ation Over to the MRCA Saga

Centre Cancels Contract for Midair Refuellers for Fighter Aircraft
DNA

Centre Cancels Contract for Midair Refuellers for Fighter Aircraft
Josy Joseph / DNA
Wednesday, January 6, 2010 0:26 IST

New Delhi: In a development that could severely hamper the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) ability, the government has cancelled a $1.5-billion contract for midair refuellers for fighter aircraft. Midair refuellers extend the reach and endurance of the aircraft.

Defence ministry sources said the contract was cancelled after the finance ministry raised several objections to the acquisition. The Ministry’s Objections, sources in the Military said, were due to a Lingering L1 (Lowest Item in a Contract) Syndrome in the Government.

The Air Force Pleaded Hard with AK Antony to Not Cancel the Contract after a few years of Trial and Evaluations, but the defence minister Decided Not to Oppose the finance ministry.

Under the Norms of Contract of Government of India, the Cheapest Item that Satisfies the Parameters Must Be Bought.

The AirForce is Upset at the Cancellation.When it comes to the Military, Technological Capabilities and Sophistication make a Huge Difference, “but that is Immaterial if the Finance Ministry is to be Trusted”, a source in the Airforce said. “For Every Bit of Sophistication, we have to Pay a Price, and that Makes a Huge Difference in the Battlefield,” he said. “It would Take us a Few Years Now to Select a Tanker, Unless they Force us to Buy the Russian Tanker,” an IAF officer said.

“We need to Break the Logjam” On Opting for the Cheapest,[/color] another air force officer said. He pointed out that the Contract for the purchase of 12 helicopters for transporting VVIPs, such as the president and the prime minister, was also facing resistance from the finance ministry. The ministry has argued that the deal is far more expensive than what was projected. However, since there is no “L1 Trouble” in the chopper deal, it may “Finally Go Through”, the officer said.

The finance ministry had also Objected to the Acquisition of the Costlier Airbus 330 multi-role tanker transport aircraft six years after the air force bought the Russia-made Ilyushin-78. But, sources said, the Air Force Justified the Buy in a Detailed Written Reply, saying Airbus was Technologically Superior than Ilyushin-78 and that the Overall Cost of the European Product would be Competitive. IAF pointed out that Airbus was Fuel Efficient and Most of its Civilian Parts could be Serviced in India.[/color]

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 07 Jan 2010 19:06

Eurofighter Typhoon to built 126 combat jets for India

European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.

The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday.

Equipping the twin-engine Typhoon’s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise mode by up to 7 percent, the statement added.

Thrust vectoring would “improve agility, survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft’s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and

therefore, fuel consumption”, the statement pointed out.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the six jets in contention for the IAF order, which could eventually rise to some 200 planes. The flight trials of the six aircraft are currently underway in India and are set to conclude later this month after which, another set of trials will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

Thereafter, the IAF will shortlist two or three aircraft before homing in on the final choice.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought in a flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India through the transfer of technology route by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper (both from the US), the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian MiG-35 are the other aircraft in the fray.

According to the EADS statement, the biggest operational benefit of thrust vectoring “is the speed that it gives in super cruise mode, because obviously the pilots are very keen on low observability at high speed”.

“Seven to eight percent more thrust in super cruise mode is quite a remarkable achievement and it adds to the operators’ delight. This would give the aircraft an edge over its rivals in combat as well as in getaway situations,” the statement added.

It also pointed out that while thrust vectoring promises operational advantages, “one has to look at life cycle costs as well. The importance is that the manufacturers should bring about both thrust increase and low life cycle costs”.

http://calcuttatube.com/eurofighter-typ ... dia-47778/

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 07 Jan 2010 19:07

India to set up dedicated aeronautics and avionics academy soon
http://www.brahmand.com/news/India-to-s ... /1/30.html

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 07 Jan 2010 19:10

Indian Air Force May Acquire More Su-30MKIs

A total of 230 Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft have been ordered for the Indian Air Force (IAF), including 140 that are being assembled under license in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Recently, the commander of the IAF indicated that his service was interested in acquiring 50 additional Su-30MKIs, which would thus bring the total IAF acquisition to 280 Su-30MKIs.

Fifty Su-30MKIs, produced in Russia by Irkut, were delivered to the IAF by the end of 2007. Under an October 2007 deal valued at around $1.6 billion, Irkut is currently producing 40 additional Su-30MKIs for the service.

Meanwhile, licensed assembly by HAL of the aforementioned 140 Su-30MKIs is under way. Deliveries to the IAF of HAL-built aircraft began in 2005 and are scheduled to be completed in 2014.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/12301/

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 07 Jan 2010 23:00

Chhattisgarh to have air base soon

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jan 2010 00:35

Boeing is reporting that India has submitted a request for a possible C-17 order.

Looks like this thing is going through in quite a hurry and a possible FMS sale route.

anyway, from a jingo's perspective, if the IAF gets something, its a whole lot better than going through a lengthy tender process, followed by a long competition, followed by someone raising an objection, followed by cancellation, followed by a year's delay, followed by another re-tendering and the whole process repeating itself leading to half a decade's delay if not more.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Jan 2010 00:41

Yep platform comparisons are our headache , IAF or services as long as get the equipment in TIME should be fine.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Jan 2010 02:11

Don't approach VVIPs, VIPs for postings: IAF to its personnel

khan · Post by **khan** » 08 Jan 2010 07:51

Are we still getting the backfires?

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 08 Jan 2010 08:57

Supposed to have been part of the package order with the Gorky and the two Nerpas. Karnad's book talked about the IN getting them but no one else is talking, so no confirmation, no denial (yet!).