Indian Army: News & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Indian Army Discussion

Post by chetak »

atreya wrote: I have a deep respect for all armed forces, and I salute to their bravery. I would be the last person to question their integrity. But that doesnt mean that you belittle all other careers
Having seen both sides of the fence, let me say this. :)

I was unendingly busy and stressed in a previous avatar.

Now, I am usually swamped and even more stressed out . Most of the time the facilities are better but one misses the camaraderie.

You have to particularly watch out for the "smiler with the knife".

This species seems very much more evolved and prevalent in civvy street. Our valve model radars frequently fail to detect these advanced taxonomic groups, often resulting in "close quarters" situations
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

somnath wrote:the blame for non-implementation of the CDS has to lie with the services..
The civvies are also to blame for non-implementation of CDS. Like any good mantriji refusing to disinvest the PSUs under his ministry (which will be accompanied by loss of "power"), the civvies want a tight hold on the foreign policy/diplomacy. (War, it is said, is diplomacy by other means).

A strong and independent minded CDS who has his own ideas on what the armed forces can and cannot achieve and what is and is not their sphere of responsibility has huge ramifications on our foreign policy, diplomacy, internal security and even things like finance ministry (for example, he might have some choice words for the MRTT decision by the finance ministry). Thus he would tread on the toes of various ministries.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:CDS will never come. The GOI is dead scared of a coup given their shoddy governance. And at the same time, I would state the Armed Forces have no clue to govern and so they will not try it. So, we are safe!
I dont think anyone is scared of a coup anymore.
A military coup in India is an absolute impossibility.

Please note how the other Armed formations like BSF, CRPF, state Armed reserve police etc etc are wide spread, dispersed and controlled by different and often warring ministries. Not like most of our neighbors where the police forces are intentionally kept weak and the army is all pervasive.

No one can bring all these disparate prima donnas on board without the IB and state intelligence sniffing out the coup. This is why the Armed forces are being constantly undermined in public by political pygmies, like fernandes and antony dared to do!

Most of our intelligence failures are because a large majority of these intelligence resources are inward looking, a paranoid hangover from our colonial past. The political blighters are busy watching one another!

If the police reforms are carried out and the police made truly independent, the politicians will not be able to access these resources to keep track of their opponents and other perceived threats. This is why sixty odd years after we kicked out the white goras, the brown goras do not want police reforms.

When do we kick the brown goras out?

The fiasco of the IPKF revealed the complete cross purposes to which our various national agencies are capable of working. These morons sabotaged all the Army efforts by directly double dealing with multifarious srilankan and ltte factions.

Is there no over riding national objective?

The left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

Do you think that such a situation has come about without careful thought and years of subtle planning and organisation by the congress party given the rabid fear that randy nehru had of a military coup. The continuous degrading of the Service Chiefs' in the warrant of precedence is proof of this nefarious strategy. The constant use and degradation of the Army, Navy and IAF for flood relief and pulling babies out of deep borewells?

Whats wrong with the bloody states administrations using their police forces or Territorial army or whatever. They are also equally well organised and trained, at least for these mundane type jobs!

By all means use the Armed forces when required but not routinely and every time without applying the brain.

TV often shows borewell tragedies where the public is screaming for the Army to be called! Is this what the Army have been reduced to?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

I thought there was a direction that all wells will be lined. Or am I wrong to believe so?

So many children's lives are lost this way!

While on exercise on a dark night, one of my jawans fell into a well in a place called Gowligowda near Hyderabad. It was a well which was used to ferment what is known as 'gurumba' (illicit liquor).

We fished the man out and he was sozzled and pink!

The police reforms are not wanted by the politicians and bureaucrats since it will not give them the 'rope' for their desires. How does the Rathore type become IGP and is not found out?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

Chetak,

Uncharacteristic post from you - from military coup to multiplicity of intel agencies to oversue of the services in "civvie" work!! :)

But really, the coup bogey is a huge red herring..No one, not even the political class believes that there is any possibility of a coup..But your allusion that because the forces cant stage a coup, "pygmies" like Antony and Fernandes dare to do what they do is not right, IMO..

the services play the media game equally well (part of the problem though in the Sukhna case!)...Remember Gen JJ singh's well timed interviews on Siachen, when it was rumoured that MMS is ready to do a "deal" on Siachen with Musharraf? Or equally well timed leaks on the "inadequacies" of Arjun? Or Adm Sureesh Mehta's outbursts on Gorshkov, advising a revisst of our relations with Russia? Or his interviews during the 6th CPC? Or even Gen Ved Malik's "we will fight with whatever we have" statement? Each of them was trying to further a specific agenda (not necessarily vested, but an agenda) where a politician or bureaucrat was at the receiving end..Do we see the political class up in arms in these cases? There isnt any residual "fear of coup" anymore, so all sections in Delhi play the "game" the way they know it!

Its a pity that someone or a group of people are not playing the same game to further some of the structural issues...CDS is a HUGE one..Integration of the services in MoD is another one...doctrinal consistency is a technical subject, but again merits serious attention..

A CDS will ensure one point advice to the RM, and if anything will increse the collective clout of the services wth the political establishment..But inter service rivalries are coming in the way of greater good! Imagine the Chief of Army Staff giving an interview that says that we need to move to a CDS structure as of tomorrow, and the IA has done the preliminary work required to move in that direction...The pressure that it will create on the political setup will be immense, even if they are not all that enthused....
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

RayC wrote:I thought there was a direction that all wells will be lined. Or am I wrong to believe so?

So many children's lives are lost this way!

Why not jug the borewell owners?

Put them in the clink for five years and let them stew.

How do these jokers get away without penalty?
Can they at least, cover it with a thick metal or cement cover? or fence it.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by negi »

^ In India leave alone bore wells the man hole covers are stolen and sold as scrap they even take away RCC one's for the want of iron rods. :shock:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rajput »

Anujan wrote:A strong and independent minded CDS who has his own ideas on what the armed forces can and cannot achieve and what is and is not their sphere of responsibility has huge ramifications on our foreign policy, diplomacy, internal security and even things like finance ministry (for example, he might have some choice words for the MRTT decision by the finance ministry). Thus he would tread on the toes of various ministries.
The CDS will be from one of the Services. Have you seen any Chief in the recent past (or coming down the line) who will be "strong and independent minded" ?

What was that saying again? "OLQ will make you a Colonel, but BLQ will make you a General" !

Face it: the upper echelons of the Army (at least) are too busy thinking about extra stars on the shoulder, post-retirement plum positions, etc. to show any spine. Their solution to any problem, as always, is to create more commands and more positions for Lt Gens.
chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

somnath wrote:Chetak,

A CDS will ensure one point advice to the RM, and if anything will increse the collective clout of the services wth the political establishment..But inter service rivalries are coming in the way of greater good! Imagine the Chief of Army Staff giving an interview that says that we need to move to a CDS structure as of tomorrow, and the IA has done the preliminary work required to move in that direction...The pressure that it will create on the political setup will be immense, even if they are not all that enthused....
A bitterly divided top is mainly responsible for the CDS imbroglio. This has been engineered and sustained by the IAS lobby.

If there is unity instead of the turf war, the politicos will be forced to concede the CDS. It actually helps them that they are talking only to one guy who then coordinates and manages operations with the required professional inputs from the concerned services.

What happens then to the Def Sec and the rest of this extremely interested but ancillary brigade? Therein lies the crux of the problem.

Just because one has passed the civil services exam does not automatically mean that one can gain hard military knowledge and experience by the process of osmosis.

The free ride will end.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Among the services there is division between IA and IAF. IAF doesnt want the post to be there for they think IA with its numbers will end up in charge. IN is neutral. The IAF also thinks it has lost it uniqueness as now IA has those missile regiments. The IN will soon get the same with the Arihant.
The way out is to have rotation instead of selection as that can be skewed until things get straightened out. However current Chief of Staffs based on seniority is an ad-hoc working arrangement. All this despite the joint training as cadets in NDA! If there is any force in the world that should have jointness its the Indian forces due to the NDA. But inter service rivalries have sabotaged this goal.

On the civilan side there is political (coup fears) and civil service (old Curzon vs Kitchener debate on primacy) angst at the CDS despite it being a recommendation of a civilian K Subramanyam garu.
Meantime everything goes to pot.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

from Mandeep-ji on FB
x-post
Etiquette, deference, tradition and tea amid an unsung tour of duty
In Congo, Indian troops make up the biggest contingent of the biggest UN peacekeeping operation in the world
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

No scam, no kickbacks, says Lt Gen Avadhesh Prakash
...
“I know there was no scam,” the general told Hindustan Times. “The Army didn’t own the land and it didn’t give any NoC.”

“There were no kickbacks.”

He added, “Where is the question of influencing officers of the same rank? It’s not done.”
...
...
“Rath was not my junior,” the general said, adding, “Both of us were lieutenant generals; 33 Corps wasn’t under my chain of command. I had no authority to pressure anyone.”
...
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

Give military autonomy
Hijacked by the media, considerable high drama has surrounded the Sukna land case involving senior Generals of the Indian Army. The turnaround by Chief of Army Staff Gen Deepak Kapoor in ordering disciplinary proceedings against his Military Secretary, Lt Gen Avadhesh Prakash, who had originally been served a show cause notice under the rubric of administrative action, has also attracted some attention. The last minute switch in Gen Kapoor’s decision was prompted by an advisory issued by Defence Minister AK Antony. Both these events reflect strains in civil-military relations and the progressive diminution of the office of the COAS.

Further illustrating the malaise are three recent professional comments by Gen Kapoor on limited war under nuclear overhang; two-front war doctrine; and integration of armies in Nepal. These valid observations were curiously not supported by the Government. Mr Antony should have been more forthright in defending his and the country’s COAS and not let the flak fly at him from abroad. After all, the first two comments relate to accepted Government policy and should have been upheld.
.
...............

Returning to the widely-trodden Sukna land, Gen Kapoor, guided by his legal department, opted to follow the administrative action route which gives him many options, including termination of services. The Sukna case has raised a media storm for three months now. Gen Kapoor issued a show cause notice to Lt Gen Prakash three weeks ago. So why on earth did Mr Antony — whose Ministry has been shadowing the case — wait till after the show cause had been given and the reply received? To issue an advisory suddenly shows how out of sync he is with what he ought to be doing to protect the image of the Army and the high office of the COAS. Through his unwise interference in the case, he has diminished the COAS.

Now Lt Gen Prakash has been placed under the Army Act’s Section 123 which subjects him to this law for three years even after he retired last Sunday. There will be a hearing of charges followed by a summary of evidence. Depending on the findings and outcome, disciplinary action could follow. Lt Gen Prakash could appeal to the newly-constituted Army Tribunal and so the Sukna saga will now be long, protracted and hopfully leak-proof.

...............
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

POSTING IN FULL !
At the frozen frontier
What do you do for survival when the temperatures hover between minus 10 and minus 30 even when the sun is shining brightly?

Well, nothing extraordinary really except brave the chill, as Indian army soldiers and ITBP (Indo-Tibetan Border Police) personnel do quite cheerfully all along the Sino-India frontier in the high altitudes of Ladakh. The trick is to acclimatize to the rarified atmosphere and not let your mind get affected by the seemingly heavy odds. The army follows a six-day acclimatization schedule for all ranks. Three days rest at 9,000 feet; three days above 12,000 feet before getting down to any task, even a desk job.

But last week I and Sajjilal, our intrepid cameraperson, had no such luxury. Heavy, unprecedented fog in Delhi had cancelled our flight on the first day of the week-long programme. The cancellation cut into our acclimatization schedule.

When we landed in Leh on a bright sunny morning, we were already running behind time. So I and Sajjilal, our intrepid cameraperson, decided to go against conventional wisdom and start work with just a day's break.

Planning for this trip was on since October last year after India and China traded charges about increased activities and heightened tension along the line of actual control. But none in the establishment in Delhi was willing to stick his neck out and give us the necessary permission.

After three months of persistent badgering, we finally got the clearance and here we were in Ladakh in peak winter. Indeed, the idea was to be at the frozen frontier during the coldest possible month so as to understand how the situation really is for our soldiers.

While I had been to Chushul, the scene of a fierce battle in 1962, about two years ago, that was in the summer month when the snow had melted and the lake waters were a pristine blue. This time too I had planned to go to Chushul in Eastern Ladakh but before that I was keen on taking a closer look at the area called Fukche and Demchok on the south-eastern border of Ladakh, mainly because that's where last year's incidents had happened. Villagers had complained that the Chinese were nibbling at Indian territory and were annexing Indian territory inch by inch.

So, clad in four layers of thermal wear we set off for Kairi, the brigade headquarters for an initial briefing.

As the road kept climbing beyond 12-13,000 feet, we felt more and more breathless. The Army, aware of our restlessness, kept forcing us to have as much water and juice as possible so that the dehydration caused by the altitude and lack of oxygen at that altitude could be compensated.

Despite the personal warmth of the officers and the physical comforts provided by the army throughout our journey, both I and Sajji could sleep only fitfully on all the six nights that we were in Ladakh.

On Day III, we finally reached Demchok, the last Indian post on this frontier. A Chinese post was barely a km away across the Indus. The local villagers bared their hearts--and their grievances. A casual look around the village (with barely 100-odd population) was enough to show that the civil administration had not reached these distant parts. There is no road to speak of; no electricity; no telephone and no public distribution system.

The villagers, nomads really, are left to fend for themselves. Little wonder that sitting in Delhi, we hardly realize the difficulties faced by the armed forces or the local villagers. Two roads connecting Ladakh to rest of India--one from Srinagar and the other from Manali--are closed for over six months. All essential supplies come by air. The air link is tenuous at best given the fickle weather.

But all the vagaries of weather apart, India's future problems in Ladakh will come from the aggressive Chinese. And that's what I wanted to understand: how prepared is the Indian army to face any future challenge in the high Himalayas. And I am not disappointed.

India may have neglected the infrastructure build up in Ladakh all these years and may have kept very little force to defend the frontier but my most recent visit has convinced me that the lost time is being made up. By 2015, the Indian army will be as strong as anywhere else and the Indian air Force will be in a position to work in close coordination with the ground forces and take on the might of the PLA.

Whether a conflict is imminent with the Chinese in these mountains, no one knows but I am sure of one fact: Ladakh is desolate, cold and utterly charming.
RayC Sir, thoughts on the 100 odd population?? as to why keep them isolated and not develop (schools, govt hospital. ityadi ityadi..) I know give the terrain this is wishful thinking but any thoughts/comments in the public forum would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

chetak wrote:A bitterly divided top is mainly responsible for the CDS imbroglio. This has been engineered and sustained by the IAS lobby.

If there is unity instead of the turf war, the politicos will be forced to concede the CDS. It actually helps them that they are talking only to one guy who then coordinates and manages operations with the required professional inputs from the concerned services.

What happens then to the Def Sec and the rest of this extremely interested but ancillary brigade? Therein lies the crux of the problem.
Dont know how much the "IAS lobby" is responsible..The civvie bureaucracy does not deal with operational military affairs anyways..Their job is largely administrative, relating to finance, management of DPSUs, accounts, coordinating between various ministries connected to MoD etc..dont think a concerted effort from the services top brass can be stonewalled easily..The matter is so technical that the services can have their way by simply emphasizing on the "expertise quotient"..

Its not going to happen without a serious political intervention..In UK, their transition to a CDS structure was literally rammed through by strong personalities, including a certain Louis Mountbatten..It will take a politically strong RM, and backed by at least 2 service chiefs who enjoy credibility, to push it through..
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

The charges are so tenuous that one gets the feeling that RM wanted to send a message to IA brass. Just tow the line and no independent utterances.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

Craig Alpert wrote:
RayC Sir, thoughts on the 100 odd population?? as to why keep them isolated and not develop (schools, govt hospital. ityadi ityadi..) I know give the terrain this is wishful thinking but any thoughts/comments in the public forum would be greatly appreciated!
There are many such hamlets dotting Ladakh.

The main issue why there is a lack of development is that we are Kashmir Valley centric and so the funds are utilised there. The State govt is not really concerned since the population is Buddhists and by nature are not the complaining type. The sum total is that neither the Union Govt nor the State govt are too concerned.

It is the Army which provide the infrastructure in education, engineering and medical assistance, but the resources are quite meagre. Even to avail such facilities, the villagers have to trudged great distances.

In so far as schooling goes, they go and become Lamas and get their religious as also I was told formal eduction.

Op Sadbhavna is an Army project that has been quite successful and it is being expanded to greater areas. It encompasses education, medical assistance, veterinary advice and care, electricity, community centre and so on.

There is no doubt that these areas require development urgently.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

ramana wrote:The charges are so tenuous that one gets the feeling that RM wanted to send a message to IA brass. Just tow the line and no independent utterances.
Actually, it is a turf war within and without!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by satya »

Delhi Billis are watching the fight among Defense Cats with a sigh ' yeh to hona hi tha' . There are more swords for Chief's Brain/ MS than shields ,chief by chance retiring for age catches all . MS to be made an example of for nothing scares the dilli billis than live feed of how not be an example tht too in durbar . No tolerance for cats with milk visible on their faces , if u drink milk learn to wipe the lips , u forgot u pay. Example to be set for rest of Top Cats be they defenders or durbar wallahs or babu log , no one with milk stain left out so will be khiladis in rajneeti.

Bigger issue is to bring in fresh thinking one in tune with vision initiated under IG carried forward by ABV now to be implemented . No more for unavailability of Natasha's tin cans to be excuse for not initiating action across our former territories ( yes sir former territories is the word of the week ) . For delhi billis , day will be when desh has its own CentCommand , gora sahib's mojo going down. Time for Brown Sahibs to keep desert tribes at peace & ensuring there's enough camels meat for everyone ofcourse milk for us . Sound fantasy so be it what do i know but then nothing is what we hear/see in media is knowledge for its never propagated why make someone miserable happiness too a form of misery it won't let u sleep in excitement so in dilli style solution its propagated via Scotch with soda & tangdis :rotfl:

Anyhow , things are in motion , so watch out cats , don't get caught with milkdrops :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Lets see when the billis get belled. They are the real khiladis.

Also who answers for the delays in force upgradation in the name of honesty while the real reasons are quantum of milk not yet decided? Who takes hisab of Renuka Chaudhry who ensured the howitzer deal is nixed?

And when KSji was cut down? That prevented the creation of desi Cent Command. Who stopped Falcon?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by satya »

There are some old dilli billis with legs in kabar who are addicted to Nestle milk but yuvraj wants them to our own Amul brand :mrgreen: , change is not easy but then where is Renuka Chaudhary these days , she didn't nixed anything , just cuz her name came doesn't mean she's the main culprit for there was none , need to invent excuse to ward of those natashas , she gave one , readily accepted and as a thnxx off she goes :rotfl:

Modernization yes but what to do with top brass for whom modernization is only foreign maal with extra malai no wonder artyy from US is so bad !Problem is top brass is happy with status quo , inka kya karen ?
Another thing none of the IA's vision is one of status quo in so many words is this what we are striving for ? X number of times has the establishment told them in clear words what it wants , IG & ABVjee's work is there to be carried forward but then top cats think baccha hei isse kya pata . These top cats better ask the new resident in Kolkata :(( he too thought but then........ all tht ends in Raj Bhawan is gud
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by jaladipc »

Aur ek chameli ki kahani
Exclusive: Indian Army's First Ever NBC Exercise--Amogh Raksha Validates War-Plans In Nuclear Backdrop.
The Bhopal-based 21 Corps, falling under the Southern Command, concluded its five-day war-game based on nuclear biological chemical (NBC) warfare, conducted for the first time ever by the Indian Army in the deserts of Rajasthan, last month. Named 'Amogh Raksha', meaning something that can't be pierced, the exercise mainly had elements from the Sagar-based 36 RAPID Division.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Jaladip, can you please post it in quotes so that it doesn't appear to be your write-up?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

satya wrote:Modernization yes but what to do with top brass for whom modernization is only foreign maal with extra malai no wonder artyy from US is so bad !Problem is top brass is happy with status quo , inka kya karen ?
If the top brass was even half on the ball, they would have by now pushed indigenisation to therir (sabre) hilt..There is one HUGE advantage that indigeneous equipment enjoy over imported ones, the former is "scam proof"..One cannot hear accusations of scams in any domestic procurement of major platforms, even when the final manufacture is done in the pvt sector..Given the number of projects hanging fire because of "scam fears", with the arty project being the worst affected, the services should have been right up there clamouring to simply get the domestic efforts going..

Successive Army chiefs have lamented the slow process of arty modernisation, or NV equipment for armour..But went to all lengths to not order Arjun or even talk of starting a domestic arty programme..Obsolete AD weapons for both IA and IAF - but the Akash project was rubbished until recently..The list goes on - though the IN is probably better in this aspect..

The issue is with a lack of vision and leadership...
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

The military market analyst and the product life cycle planning concept

The purpose of this paper has been to attain useful insights for military market analysts and other corporate planners into the efficacy of the product life cycle planning concept as a viable device for the successful merchandising of specific military-oriented systems and subsystems in a dynamic, multitracked, global weapon/space/support systems market.

In a systemic manner, this study has depicted the product life cycle of a weapon system acquired by the United States Army, demonstrating the decision-making process at each phase of development. By modeling the entire system, the researcher and his assistants have attempted to provoke further analysis and evaluation which would lead to improvement and refinement of the model, establishment of a framework for determining the attributes of the components and discovery of a more detailed nature of the components' interrelationships.

Planning Cycle and Development

This will give an idea of how war matériel are developed and the time lag thereof.

Add to it the plodding Indian bureaucratic approach!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

The average time for development of any equipment is taken to be 10 years.

Before that there has to be the perception of the geopolitical environment and the threat scenario at least 20 years beyond since after development, counting the production time for the requisite number and life of the equipment, it has to remain operationally viable and capable of being valid for the changed operational scenario.

Expensive equipment cannot be discarded at the end of its operational life and instead are upgraded and refurbished with the latest material available and technology so that such equipment remain valid as far as the operation scenario of that time. Hence, one sees T 72 and MiG 21 on the inventory, though upgraded to meet the operational requirement. Even the US and Russia cannot shed equipment and instead goes in for upgrades even if they change the nomenclature for the models upgraded. I mentioned earlier of the same with some quotes from the magazine Purple Beret.

There is no denying that there is a continuous upgrading of the threat perception every year for the next 20 years and new equipment visualised, but more or less without exorbitant costs. Even the US had to abandon “ROADBLOCK” PROGRAMS such as the Joint Strike Fighter, CVX aircraft carrier, and Crusader howitzer to fit its national perceptions vs budget constraints and national aim.

Brig Richard E Simpkins, a leading mechanised warfare exponent, in his book Race to the Swift has mentioned '' Time and time again, radical change in equipment, doctrine or force structure is concerned, one finds a gestation period of between 30 to 50 years....".

In India, apart from Army short-sightedness, it would be prudent to add that the bureaucratic delays and political interference, apart from DRDO overestimating themselves (Ramarao Report) are also responsible.

Therefore, to believe that everything is scam ridden or serving self interest by Generals would be misplaced.

I have no better suggestions.

Any better suggestions?

MiG21 is said to be a flying coffin! Yet, there is bumbling over the choice of replacement. How many squadrons? What is the costs? How much does it bite into the Defence Budget and how does it affect the 'modernisation' we are so keen on and commenting? How much does it affect the aam admi budget? What are the political consequences on the aam admi?

I am sure the Armed Forces, bureaucrats and politicians are not that crass to be bereft of the ideas we all express here. One must see all the angles. Some are not quite straight as one want them to be, but not all!

We still continue. Therefore, should we not take it that there are honest people too?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

RayC wrote:What is the costs? How much does it bite into the Defence Budget and how does it affect the 'modernisation' we are so keen on and commenting? How much does it affect the aam admi budget? What are the political consequences on the aam admi?
Budgets have never been a contraint for the services in the last 15 years (in fact since about 1993-94) - thousands of crores of budgets are returned unutilised every year to the Consolidated Fund of India...

Given the (long winded) nature of weapons procurement, development and deployment cycles, the sheer absence of long term planning is astonishing..The AF wanted more M2ks as its MRCA, but started discussions on upgrading its existing fleet only 2 years back? The IN ordered Mig29s back in 2003, but the AF took another 5 years to negotiate a separate upgrade contract for its own Mig29s..Ajai Shukla has mentioned how the T72 tanks that need 2 MLUs in 30 years are going in for only 1 upgrade now..The continuing circus of pretty much every platform - aircraft, missiles, tanks, choppers...Professionals acknowledge the primacy of logistics in warfare, but the Indian services go on and on in creating new types of every single platform conceivable...
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Somanath-> I dont budgets were never a problem in the last 15 years. In fact prior to 1999 in real terms our Defence Budget sharank drastically from 1991-99. If fact before the SU-30 contract, India had no major Arms purchases in 1990's. the Mig-21's and most IAF aircraft were no fitted with Chaff, flares etc...

it was kargil which again worke us from sleep and Aman ki Asha hopes
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

Aditya_V wrote:Somanath-> I dont budgets were never a problem in the last 15 years. In fact prior to 1999 in real terms our Defence Budget sharank drastically from 1991-99. If fact before the SU-30 contract, India had no major Arms purchases in 1990's. the Mig-21's and most IAF aircraft were no fitted with Chaff, flares etc...

it was kargil which again worke us from sleep and Aman ki Asha hopes
Well not really..You can check out the budget documents - unfortunately couldnt find a tabkle with time series data..

Here is some in tabulated format.

http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Journals/ ... kistan.pdf

Its till 2004-05 only, but the trend is the same since then - defence as a % of GDP is around 2.5-3% of GDP and about 14-16% of total expenditure..Of course in absolute rupee terms the numbers increase every year as well..Mind you the numbers are AFTER what has been returned due to under utilisation, the actual budget would have been more..

The first Su30 contract was entered into in 1996...Its been a long time since then, 15 years!!
Last edited by somnath on 05 Feb 2010 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by negi »

^ Budgetary allocation notwithstanding services end up returning unused funds year after year , the lack of planning what Somnath talks about is again a major reason for adhoc and knee jerk purchases like a mega order of T-90 , and in case of Arjun IA's archaic ways and British era chutzpah don't help its case . MoD is equally incompetent when it comes to the three services but IA of all manages to mess up its procurement programme by a big margin be it ARTY or MBTs.

Imho of all the indigenous weapons platforms developed by the DRDO Arjun by far is the most competitive and state of the art when compared to foreign platforms of same class and leave alone supporting it IA ends up buying a T-90 , hell in this case even damned brochures are not on its side.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

Suman Sharma in her blog says that
The indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) did its first five-minute ground run to test the engine and the systems today, before it can take off. It was a successful ground run. According to sources it will take off for its first flight after 15 days.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by somnath »

Long term perspective planning is a challenge...But Op Parakram showed that even tactical logistics is a huge challenge for the IA...The Army took almost forever to mobilise..And in the process lost nearly 700 men without a shot fired in anger..Thats almost equal to the total casualties in Kargil? Cold Start has been touted as the solution to the former shortcoming, even though the IAF seems to be blissfully unaware of it! One doesnt know whether the latter has been tackled in any form..Bharat Karnad's book (India's nuclear...) doesnt paint a very rosy picture of the state of India's war wastage reserves - in fact he states that a lot more money is deployed to buy new equipment than to bolster war reserves to a level where a medium term high intensity campaign can be carried out..

These are actually precisely the sort of stuff that a high quality general staff would look into...
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anirban_aim »

Hope the Jingos haven't missed this:
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/land_sca ... o_army.php
During the hearing by the two-member tribunal, Prakash's counsel Jyoti Singh accused Lieutenant General P K Rath, who is also facing a court martial in this case, of being the "villain" and was hurling charges because his "neck was in the noose".

Singh said her client's role was only to the extent of requesting Lieutenant General Rath that he looks into his friend's proposal to set up an educational institute on a state government adjacent to the military station.
"Where is the doubt. You have a deep interest. You expose yourself very badly here as it shows your closeness," Justice Mathur said.

When Singh said that Prakash could not have influenced the decision to issue the NOC as he was nowhere in the chain of command, Mathur said, "Military secretary is de facto Chief of Staff."
He added that no Lieutenant General will try to refuse him unless they are very upright and very straight forward as Prakash was holding an important office.

Noting that he was not able to come out of "suspicion" over Prakash's role in the case, Justice Mathur said, "Army has taken a decision to not allow the land to be used for civilian purposes and Rath has the cheeks to overrule the decision of a senior commander. That speaks volumes...unless he was pressurised by your client, why would he otherwise go back on his own decision to acquire the land."

The latest in the Sukna Saga.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by anirban_aim »

Question for Gurus familiar with the processes of the Armed Forces Tribunal.

Could this be DDMitis or plain biased reporting. :?: But the judge (going by this account) already seems to be have made up a certain point of view. :!: Is that fair to say :-?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

anirban_aim wrote:Hope the Jingos haven't missed this:
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/land_sca ... o_army.php
During the hearing by the two-member tribunal, Prakash's counsel Jyoti Singh accused Lieutenant General P K Rath, who is also facing a court martial in this case, of being the "villain" and was hurling charges because his "neck was in the noose".

Singh said her client's role was only to the extent of requesting Lieutenant General Rath that he looks into his friend's proposal to set up an educational institute on a state government adjacent to the military station.
"Where is the doubt. You have a deep interest. You expose yourself very badly here as it shows your closeness," Justice Mathur said.

When Singh said that Prakash could not have influenced the decision to issue the NOC as he was nowhere in the chain of command, Mathur said, "Military secretary is de facto Chief of Staff."
He added that no Lieutenant General will try to refuse him unless they are very upright and very straight forward as Prakash was holding an important office.

Noting that he was not able to come out of "suspicion" over Prakash's role in the case, Justice Mathur said, "Army has taken a decision to not allow the land to be used for civilian purposes and Rath has the cheeks to overrule the decision of a senior commander. That speaks volumes...unless he was pressurised by your client, why would he otherwise go back on his own decision to acquire the land."

The latest in the Sukna Saga.
The correct word is Fratricide.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by RayC »

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:What is the costs? How much does it bite into the Defence Budget and how does it affect the 'modernisation' we are so keen on and commenting? How much does it affect the aam admi budget? What are the political consequences on the aam admi?
Budgets have never been a contraint for the services in the last 15 years (in fact since about 1993-94) - thousands of crores of budgets are returned unutilised every year to the Consolidated Fund of India...

Given the (long winded) nature of weapons procurement, development and deployment cycles, the sheer absence of long term planning is astonishing..The AF wanted more M2ks as its MRCA, but started discussions on upgrading its existing fleet only 2 years back? The IN ordered Mig29s back in 2003, but the AF took another 5 years to negotiate a separate upgrade contract for its own Mig29s..Ajai Shukla has mentioned how the T72 tanks that need 2 MLUs in 30 years are going in for only 1 upgrade now..The continuing circus of pretty much every platform - aircraft, missiles, tanks, choppers...Professionals acknowledge the primacy of logistics in warfare, but the Indian services go on and on in creating new types of every single platform conceivable...
Guess why the budgets are not utilised?

When is the bulk released?

There is planning, but then one just can't hurry through the paces at the last minute.

Mobilisation of the IA is not an easy matter. It requires not only the organisation of the Armed Forces, but also the movement and the IR does not have that many rakes to move the reserves in one go, nor is there adequate tank transporters to move all the Indian Army armoured in just one go!

Then there is the issue of procurement of rations etc from local sources! Just can't move the army and then not have the rations!

Just touched the tip of the iceburg. It is much more!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One of the biggest causes of the delay is the arranging of the pay off to the political coffers. And INC is the biggest at siphoning off funds as commissions. Bofors is a case in point. Lotus account in Swiss banks. So the Forces might make the technical recommendation but it gets hung up till the payment is arranged. And in some cases INC demands multiple payments when the minsters change.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by negi »

^ Ramana garu but above factor is consistent across the three services , how is that IN manages to fair better in all this ruckus ? And all this when IA in comparasion does not buy as many big ticket items as the other two services .
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Negi, Currently threats to India need countering from IA and IAF and the IN in that order. So delays in IN wont hurt so much as the former cases. Also IN has a long range planning program which is mainly based on in country building (six ships of a class). Cant steal from garden Reach Workshop or Mazgoan Docks!* If you recall (sorry you were too young) the HDW submarine deal had some taint. And what else who knows.

I think IA is being made an example of by the politicians.


* During Chandrasekhar govt the Minister for Chemicals wanted a pay-off from IFFCO a public sector company to give permit to expand fertilizer plant! The MD reminded him it was a public sector company and doesnt have such capabilties. The Minister said add surcharge to each bag of fertiliser and channel it! The MD said forget it and took retirement.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Negi, Currently threats to India need countering from IA and IAF and the IN in that order. So delays in IN wont hurt so much as the former cases. Also IN has a long range planning program which is mainly based on in country building (six ships of a class). Cant steal from garden Reach Workshop or Mazgoan Docks!* If you recall (sorry you were too young) the HDW submarine deal had some taint. And what else who knows.

I think IA is being made an example of by the politicians.


* During Chandrasekhar govt the Minister for Chemicals wanted a pay-off from IFFCO a public sector company to give permit to expand fertilizer plant! The MD reminded him it was a public sector company and doesnt have such capabilties. The Minister said add surcharge to each bag of fertiliser and channel it! The MD said forget it and took retirement.

May be the politicos are shaking down the Army top brass to soften up the entire lot of them across the board before the big ticket defence deals?
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