LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 29 Sep 2010 18:14

Hari Nair wrote:Well, a higher res picture here - also showing the business end of the LCH -
(Mods - I hope the size is not excessive - if so, pl delete)

Please click on thumbnail to see high-res image.
Rahul.

I think I can recognise the pilot in the front seat..

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Sep 2010 20:51

Here's an image that captures very vividly, the superb agility of the ALH. Thanks to B Harry for capturing the 'Halcon Break' of the first Sarang Team performing at the Aero India 2005 at Yelahanka, Bangalore. The picture is real, very real indeed and not ‘Photoshopped’. The camera is aligned with the horizontal and there are no trick angles here. Harry positioned himself at a unique angle with some good cameras and got this fantastic shot. Note that there are actually three smoke trails – the lead ALH has already pulled up and is out of the frame for a vertical ‘torque turn’. Number 2 and 3 are turning hard into each other for a ‘cross-over’.

The telephoto lens has compressed the actual depth and although the two ALHs appear to be intermeshing their rotors (!)– there’s actually a safe and adequate separation between the two.

This pic is especially directed to all those naysayers and nitpicky critics – it conveys precisely what I attempted in an earlier post to explain about manoeuvrability and agility of the ALH. In the hands of the skilled IAF pilots of the Sarang, this is the magic that results! Incidentally, the LCH will have similar dynamics.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Sep 2010 21:11

There are different ways of commending people one is by way of comparison. First of all, I am deleting my comments, but an auto driver is also made of the same f&b that an astronaut is made of. I was in the context admiring the precision with which the pilots were flying and the only scary experience equivalent for me was with a Chennai auto driver who took me on a literal roller coaster ride so that comment was made in a lighter vein. Didnt know it could hurt you so much, i apologise for the same Sir. Repeat you guys are awesome.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Sep 2010 21:23

suryag wrote:^^^Great work ayya, you guys drive helicopters just like our auto drivers drive their autos, no gap is small to get through.

Well - that's certainly a comment on uncertain ground ! I wonder whether the Sarang pilots will appreciate being compared to auto-rickshaw drivers!
Are you certain you meant what you wrote? Well if you did, may suggest a bit of reading up on that certain subject of flying skills & aerobatics ..and perhaps a review of your not-so-appropriate comment - or else do I need to change my opinion of some forum members at large, perhaps?
May I also point out that its quite b**dy sad that such comments need to posted in the first place!
Are we a professional forum or what??
SURYAG - can we expect an explanation ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 21:36

Well I am certain Suryag said it in the right spirit but got all his words wrong.

Looking at the picture that Harry captured of 'Halcon Break' and just being there at the right place and time , it just keeps reminding me one more time of the deep sense of loss we have in B Harry

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Sep 2010 21:50

@ Austin -I'm sorry - I appear to be behind the times - could you fill me in ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Sep 2010 21:54

^^
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5345
our sad loss.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Sep 2010 22:01

Rahul M wrote:^^
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5345
our sad loss.

Oh God ! Terribly sorry to hear about that ! He was such a talented and enthusiatic person brimming with energy. RIP Harry...

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Sep 2010 22:41

Here’s a very iconic pic – shot by a talented photographer of The Hindu (never got his/her name). He/she had positioned in-line with the VIP Dais at the correct height at Air Force Station Palam (New Delhi) on 06 Oct 2004 – the final dress rehearsal for the Air Force Day Parade on 08 Oct 04.

It was just another typical October day in the Capital – which meant quite some terrible visibility and that dreaded murky haze. The Sarang ALHs were nice and tucked in tight formation, as usual. However, there was this bit of a problem, which was quite simple – due to that pathetic vis (about 800 m) the team-leader was’nt able to see the dias when he rolled the formation in for the first (or for that matter most) manoeuvre(s)!
Given the fact that the then Chief had given some very succinct remarks on what standards he expected, which was very explicitly conveyed to the team by the then Air-I of HQ, Western Air Command, the team members in general and the leader in particular were.. to put it mildly –sweating a bit...
However, the team did manage to roll in correctly and went on to put on an excellent show.
The picture is proof enough (no touch-up or ‘Photoshopping’ here).

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 30 Sep 2010 23:08

Hari Nair wrote:Here's an image that captures very vividly, the superb agility of the ALH. Thanks to B Harry for capturing the 'Halcon Break' of the first Sarang Team performing at the Aero India 2005 at Yelahanka, Bangalore. The picture is real, very real indeed and not ‘Photoshopped’. The camera is aligned with the horizontal and there are no trick angles here. Harry positioned himself at a unique angle with some good cameras and got this fantastic shot. Note that there are actually three smoke trails – the lead ALH has already pulled up and is out of the frame for a vertical ‘torque turn’. Number 2 and 3 are turning hard into each other for a ‘cross-over’.

Minor observation only sir it appears the turn into each other and cross over has already happened going by the fact that the Rotor Blade of the ALH on the right is ahead of the smoke trail of the ALH on the left.
Other than that your comments have served me to understand something in a different light. Your deep knowledge and expert articulation here made me realize your job is not just about "joystick jokeying" to put it crudely but in fact depends on your critical understanding and articulation of all manner of physics behind flight - in other words as they call it nowadays you are a Techie and almost every pilot needs to be one in varying degrees in order to sucessfully deliver his mission. (Also see the link to the blog on the Airbus Pilot referenced earlier on this thread). The variables are just too many.. I wish I has this insight in my college days - my career track would be different for sure...
Best Wishes for continued success on your missons

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Oct 2010 01:14

Hari Nair Sir, perhaps Suryag meant that they can manouver the aircraft like crop duster pilots here in the US do. Is the landing gear configuration of the LCA observed in the pics final. Will the shock absorber like member be a part of the final configuration?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Oct 2010 01:39

Vivek K wrote:Hari Nair Sir, perhaps Suryag meant that they can manouver the aircraft like crop duster pilots here in the US do.

Totally correct sirjee. I couldnt stop admiring the skill and maneuverability of the pilots and the machine. May be if i had said some ballet dancer it wouldnt have been so unpalatable

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Oct 2010 03:23

Outstanding photography, airmanship and vehicles.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 01 Oct 2010 10:05

Jayram wrote:Minor observation only sir it appears the turn into each other and cross over has already happened going by the fact that the Rotor Blade of the ALH on the right is ahead of the smoke trail of the ALH on the left.

You are quite right - No 2 & 3 have already just crossed each other. B Harry was probably clicking awaying in the motorised mode and he must have also got the 'pre-crossover' pic. However, this pic, with its seemingly impossible angles must have been better with its dramatic effect.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Oct 2010 11:00

Wow! That photograph by the Hindu photographer is eye-popping. Very well done.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 01 Oct 2010 20:21

Vivek K wrote:Nair Sir - From the pics it can be seen that the LCH has large shock absorbers tied to the gear. Is this normal in helos of this kind? Does it pose problems in action?

Vivek check out my earlier post explaining crashworthy undercarriages in detail

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 01 Oct 2010 20:23

Gaur wrote:Thanks very much Nair Sir.
I think this is the first and only picture of LCH in the public domain in which the LCH carries an ATGM (albeit a dummy). Is this supposed to be a mock up of HELINA?

Those are four close-combat air-to-air missiles, not ATGMs

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Oct 2010 16:27

Hari Nair wrote:
Gaur wrote:Thanks very much Nair Sir.
I think this is the first and only picture of LCH in the public domain in which the LCH carries an ATGM (albeit a dummy). Is this supposed to be a mock up of HELINA?
Those are four close-combat air-to-air missiles, not ATGMs

Hari sir...
which missiles are those???

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 02 Oct 2010 17:34

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Hari Nair wrote: I think this is the first and only picture of LCH in the public domain in which the LCH carries an ATGM (albeit a dummy). Is this supposed to be a mock up of HELINA?
Those are four close-combat air-to-air missiles, not ATGMs
Hari sir...
which missiles are those???

that will be the mistral saar...carried in twin pack pods onlee...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral_(missile)

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 02 Oct 2010 21:03

Hey guy can you shed some light on Dhruv WSI and LCH?

i see WSI weapon configuration is same as LCH!

so Where they are different?
why we need different config?

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 04 Oct 2010 03:25

What's the projected price of the LCH? Sweden could use some of them for sure..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Oct 2010 12:22

Henrik wrote:What's the projected price of the LCH? Sweden could use some of them for sure..

It is based on the ALH, but will have more specialised avionics for target acquisition, fire control and self protection..so maybe take the base price of the ALH and add a couple of million $ to that and you'd arrive at the LCH's base price.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Oct 2010 13:10

sarabpal.s wrote:Hey guy can you shed some light on Dhruv WSI and LCH?

i see WSI weapon configuration is same as LCH!

so Where they are different?
why we need different config?

While The LCH is based on the ALH and has an almost similar weapons configuration, it is designed ground up to be an attack helicopter, meaning there will be some more features that enhance the chopper's stealthiness... Also the avionics will be more suited to for its purpose as a hunter/killer...
The WSI Dhruv, is still an utility chopper.. So it cannot take care of certain high threat situations that LCH is designed to tackle...
JMO..

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 04 Oct 2010 13:30

@Bala Vignesh
WSI is meant to be a gunship, it will do jobs of troop insertion along with attack. Quite similar to the Mi-24.

@henrik
Dhruv costs just under 9 million $ so expect the LCH to cost 12-14 million $.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Oct 2010 13:45

Hey, that gives a nice incentive to HAL that they Bribe the sweeds to but the LCH.

koti · Post by **koti** » 04 Oct 2010 14:03

Bala Vignesh wrote:
sarabpal.s wrote:Hey guy can you shed some light on Dhruv WSI and LCH?

i see WSI weapon configuration is same as LCH!

so Where they are different?
why we need different config?
While The LCH is based on the ALH and has an almost similar weapons configuration, it is designed ground up to be an attack helicopter, meaning there will be some more features that enhance the chopper's stealthiness... Also the avionics will be more suited to for its purpose as a hunter/killer...
The WSI Dhruv, is still an utility chopper.. So it cannot take care of certain high threat situations that LCH is designed to tackle...
JMO..

Firstly keep in mind all the utility volume in the ALH.
It will be used for troops and cargo.

You can think of LCH as a heavily customized ALH where this space is in part filled by fuel and heavier sensors.
The fat profile is replaced by a slimmer and more tighter body, and hence harder to target.
The weight saved by doing this is utilized in the use of heavier and AA resistant outer skin.
Added, the body structure may(?) allow for better maneuvers.
The pilot, gunner will be having better field of view.

All these features would enable the LCH(The customized ALH) to perform the gunship roles better.
But however, provision of attack capabilities to normal ALH would have a different set of operational advantages.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 04 Oct 2010 14:30

smpratik wrote:@Bala Vignesh
WSI is meant to be a gunship, it will do jobs of troop insertion along with attack. Quite similar to the Mi-24.

@henrik
Dhruv costs just under 9 million $ so expect the LCH to cost 12-14 million $.

Thanks!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 04 Oct 2010 18:14

Sarabpal, think of the WSI Dhruv as any street car modified for racing and the LCH as a Ferrari. The role is similar- racing. But the former can perform other roles, like commuting, etc while the latter is a pure race car!

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 04 Oct 2010 22:10

atreya wrote:Sarabpal, think of the WSI Dhruv as any street car modified for racing and the LCH as a Ferrari. The role is similar- racing. But the former can perform other roles, like commuting, etc while the latter is a pure race car!

Where we Need Ferrari? just !000cc enough for indians
why white elephant than a Must hathi
(meaning Different but Item same)

WSI is good because it can carry troops as well why not build thing in big way and keep LCH & imported heavy stuff for surgical role Where quick get in or out required?

Any body tell How many WSI & LCH is on order book?

saje · Post by **saje** » 08 Oct 2010 17:54

I saw this bird flying low over my office campus (whitefield-b'lore) in the evening yesterday. I was hoping another jingo would have spotted it too and logged onto this thread to hear more about it. I was a little surprised to see this variant flying since I was under the impression this project had been shelved. Anyone know more about this?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Oct 2010 19:04

That's the naval version of the ALH,which I mentioned was in a pic in a VAYU edition.It has a radar in its extended "beak",adding to length,which probably is one reason why it cannot fit into our warship's hangars,supposedly also has no folding mechanism for the rotors.The "failure" of the ALH is one reason why a large number of ASW helos to replace the Sea Kings is on the cards,with the NH-90 and EH-101 the front runners.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Oct 2010 19:20

saje wrote:

I saw this bird flying low over my office campus (whitefield-b'lore) in the evening yesterday. I was hoping another jingo would have spotted it too and logged onto this thread to hear more about it. I was a little surprised to see this variant flying since I was under the impression this project had been shelved. Anyone know more about this?

I may just about know why the aircraft is still flying, I will try to contact a few people and let you guys know about it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Oct 2010 20:33

saje wrote:

I saw this bird flying low over my office campus (whitefield-b'lore) in the evening yesterday. I was hoping another jingo would have spotted it too and logged onto this thread to hear more about it. I was a little surprised to see this variant flying since I was under the impression this project had been shelved. Anyone know more about this?

The bird has just returned from some trials.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 08 Oct 2010 20:38

Philip wrote:That's the naval version of the ALH,which I mentioned was in a pic in a VAYU edition.It has a radar in its extended "beak",adding to length,which probably is one reason why it cannot fit into our warship's hangars,supposedly also has no folding mechanism for the rotors.The "failure" of the ALH is one reason why a large number of ASW helos to replace the Sea Kings is on the cards,with the NH-90 and EH-101 the front runners.

NH-90?? STAY AWAY!! Don't let yourself get involved in that mess, cause´it's nothing other than just that.

saje · Post by **saje** » 08 Oct 2010 21:42

Henrik wrote:NH-90?? STAY AWAY!! Don't let yourself get involved in that mess, cause´it's nothing other than just that.

If the additional purchases of the P-8i poseidon by the Indian Navy (IN) are any indication, I think they are already leaning away from the NH-90

.

http://indiadefenceonline.com/2174/indi ... e-hurdles/

While the US firm Sikorsky is offering the S-70B Seahawk as a commercial direct sale, there is another option for India which is the MH-60R chopper as a Foreign Military Sale (FMS) under the U.S. Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA). The American Department of Defence has offered the US Navy’s workhorse MH-60R, which is a Sikorsky platform with American systems and sensors, through the FMS route.

Considering the above report and taking into account these trial flights by the ALH-D (D= "DUCK"), if indeed the ALH-D is being re-showcased in the ASW role to the IN, against competition from the likes of the Seahawk & NH-90 then it is a very confident assertion by HAL. Have they fixed the 'bugs' I wonder?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 09 Oct 2010 03:42

The IN has decided to go for 10T ASW helos and rejected 5.5T ALH due to range and payload limitations.

Testing of ALH ASW version will give useful experiance in quickly converting 13T IMRH to ASW version and will limit the 44 options to a lesser number if say IMRH is on by 2017.

Reports indicated that two prototypes of naval ALH have been flying, one with indigenous SV2000 radar and other with ELTA radar. Once fully developed can very well be offerred for export market.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Oct 2010 04:30

Not directly related to the LCH, but interesting nevertheless and hence am posting it here. No wonder the Eurocopter guys pulled the Tiger out of the Indian competition..it stood no chance whatsoever against the Apache and Mi-28NE. The same story was repeated in France as well when they had to urgently introduce some equipment such as countermeasures before introducing the Tiger in Afghanistan. Some of these Euro toys may look great but aren't necessarily ready for combat, whereas in most cases, the US equivalents have seen a good deal of combat already and many bugs may have been ironed out already.

article in full

Attack helicopters the opposition says should be sent to Afghanistan to support Australian troops will not be fully operational for at least two years.

Australia should send a squadron of four to six Tigers and 100 personnel to end its dependence on helicopter support by allied nations, Senator Johnston said.

However, the Defence Department told the Herald yesterday the Tigers were not expected to be fully operational until December 2012. Eighteen of the 22 armed reconnaissance helicopters have been delivered by their maker, Australian Aerospace, and are being introduced into service with the 1st Aviation Regiment in Darwin.

It is believed that while the helicopters could be deployed, their night-fighting ability and armaments will take another two years to complete.
In a statement yesterday, Senator Johnston said he was merely echoing the concerns of soldiers when he called for the boost in capability.

''It was in this context that I also called for attack helicopters, which interestingly the Prime Minister has now acknowledged as being necessary and Australia is now in talks with the US to secure extra attack helicopters,'' he said.

Hari Nari ji, can you shed some more light on the amount of weapons testing that will be carried out on the LCH and estimate how much time it will take ?

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 09 Oct 2010 05:33

[quote][quote="Kartik"]Some of these Euro toys may look great but aren't necessarily ready for combat, whereas in most cases, the US equivalents have seen a good deal of combat already and many bugs may have been ironed out already.

I would agree with this statement because this is true in many other fields also

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 09 Oct 2010 17:34

HAL Dhruv WSI Update

People living around HAL Airport in Bangalore were seeing this aircraft undergoing Radar and Sonar tests.

Also check other things in the Article.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2010 18:18

the coast guard might be able to use radar and EO ball equipped Dhruv to replace the aged dauphin helicopters and bulk up in much needed number for needed inshore and island patrols.