Re: US strike options on TSP

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kancha
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by kancha »

What I Did After Police Killed My Son

This one is worth a read.
After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through."
The officer who killed my son, Albert Gonzalez, is not only still on the force ten years later, he is also a licensed concealed-gun instructor across the state line in Illinois—and was identified by the Chicago Tribune in an Aug. 7 investigative story as one of “multiple instructors [who] are police officers with documented histories of making questionable decisions about when to use force.”
Wanting to uncover the truth, our family hired a private investigator who ended up teaming up with a retired police detective to launch their own investigation. They discovered that the officer who thought his gun was being grabbed in fact had caught it on a broken car mirror. The emergency medical technicians who arrived later found the officers fighting with each other over what happened. We filed an 1,100-page report detailing Michael's killing with the FBI and US Attorney.
UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

Another police shooting in St. Louis: "knife-wielding" disturbed man killed by TWO officers shooting.
What company makes Molotov Cocktails pls? Want to see if I can buy some stock.

Don MacLean:
A man's gone insane and been killed by Poleez!
Ppl here need to read the full lyric:

"Prime Time"

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way

I was ridin' on the subway in the afternoon
I saw some kids 'a beatin' out a funky tune
The lady right in front of me was old and brown
The kids began to push her, they knocked her down
I tried to help her out but there was just no way
A life ain't worth a damn on the street today
I passed the ambulance and the camera crews
I saw the instant replay on the evening news

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way

Well will you take the car, or will you take the trip?
Remove annoying hair from your upper lip
What's it really worth? Does she really care?
What's the best shampoo that I can use on my hair?
Hey what's the real future of democracy?
How're we gonna streamline the bureaucracy?
Hey, hey, the cost of life has gone sky-high
Does the deodorant I'm using really keep me dry?

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way

Well spin the magic wheel and try to break the bank
Think about your life when you fill in the blank
Here's a game that's real if you wanna try
One spot on the wheel that says you must die
American roulette is the game we play
But no-one wants to have to be the one to pay
You get to pass "GO", you get to pass away
But before we start our show, here's our sponsor to say:

"Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way"

Well down in Mexico, the laundry's on the line
There's where you can go if you land on the nine
Canada is nice if you're fond of ice
If you land on the two then we'll send you there twice
We interrupt this game for a news release:
A man has gone insane and been killed by police!
Now back to the game, that's a dangerous play
'Cause if they see you in C-U-B-A you must pass away

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way

My supper's on the stove, the war is on the screen
Pass the bread and butter while I watch the Marine
The shot him in the chest--Pass the chicken breast!
The general is saying that he's still unimpressed.
"We had to burn the city 'cause they wouldn't agree
That things go better with democracy!"

The weather will be fair, forget the ozone layer,
But strontium showers will be here and there

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way

Well livin' in the country watchin' shadows fall
My reception ain't too good in a power stall
Bombers in the air, missiles in the sea
Chemicals in everything, including me
They don't keep their promise in the promised land
It's getting mighty hard to find an honest man
But coming very soon, a show you'll die to see
It's called "The End Of The World", on channel "C"

Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime time
This is livin' in the U. S. A.
Well this is life, this is Prime Time
This is livin' the American way
Rony
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Rony »

^^

St Louis PD is notorious for racial profiling of African-Americans AND harassing those few good officers who "out" those racist officers

Whistleblower in St. Louis County police racial profiling probe alleges retaliation
For months, he's been known only as "Lonewolf" — the name he signed on a series of anonymous letters alleging a veteran police lieutenant ordered officers in the St. Louis County Police Department's South County precinct to target African-Americans at shopping destinations there.

On Tuesday, Sgt. Daniel O'Neil revealed his name publicly in a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission — the first step toward filing a discrimination lawsuit against the police department, which O'Neil says has targeted him ever since learning he wrote the letters.

Those letters triggered an internal investigation, and Lt. Patrick "Rick" Hayes was fired in May. He has denied the claims of profiling and vowed to defend his job. Meanwhile, O'Neil has been on medical leave for stress since April 22.

"The stress of knowing everyone there wants your head has turned me into a nervous wreck," O'Neil said in an interview Tuesday with his attorney, Jerome Dobson, present.

O'Neil's complaint to the federal agency includes allegations of "unwarranted write-ups" and complaints put inside his personnel file, an impromptu drug test, revocation of his take-home car and a transfer out of the district closest to his home — actions that took place in "rapid succession" after O'Neil revealed his identity during the internal affairs investigation into Hayes' conduct, Dobson said.

"One would think that a department would thank a veteran officer for his courage to blow the whistle on this wrongdoing rather than harass him with this trumped up discipline," Dobson said. "They have created this atmosphere of intimidation in the department. Who's going to want to come forward after seeing what happened to Dan?"
Rony
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Rony »

More on St Louis from al jageeraaa

St. Louis: A city divided
In St. Louis, segregation — geographic, cultural and economic — is normal. Nationwide, the US2010 project at Brown University reported, “the typical black lives in a neighborhood that is 45 percent black, 35 percent white, 15 percent Hispanic and 4 percent Asian.” North of Delmar Blvd., St. Louis neighborhoods are about 95 percent black. South of Delmar, they are almost two-thirds white (and the median household income is $25,000 higher). White flight and black flight adhered to the pattern: Whites wound up in South County and blacks in North County.

What’s unusual about St. Louis — and goes a long way to explain the tension of the Ferguson protests — is not racism per se but the way the metropolitan area has chopped itself into bits, remaining socially and economically segregated long after racist laws were erased from the books.

There are neighborhoods where people live their entire lives and keep out strangers, with stone-pillared gates that seal off mansion-lined private avenues. The Mississippi and Missouri rivers have been used as racial divides. And artificial boundaries carve St. Louis County into 90 separate municipalities, many of which can’t afford good schools and representative, highly trained police departments. Yet the municipalities refuse unification with one another and the city of St. Louis.

Ferguson, tucked into North County, is one of those tiny cities,
with a population of roughly 21,000. Its mayor has expressed some guarded openness to a city-county merger, though there’s a strong sense of community and identity in Ferguson (the upside of fragmentation).

Still, Colin Gordon, author of “Mapping Decline: St. Louis and the Fate of the American City,” called Ferguson “a postage stamp municipality in which the white population still clings to the levers of power,” despite a population that has shifted from about 25 percent black to two-thirds black in just two decades.

“It’s part of a crescent of municipalities between the city and the airport that are not really suburbs,” he said. “They look much more like the city in the size of the lots and the mix of the land use. When flight begins, this becomes a zone of transition, because it’s the sole pocket of affordable housing.” Transition, he pointed out, is a point-in-time measurement; it doesn’t necessarily signal healthy integration.

Nor is transition easy in a city that has been finding ways to control black people’s movements since the 1700s. Today’s rules are about curfews, sagging pants and evening protests. In the late 1770s, Spanish colonial ordinances restricted slaves from holding nocturnal assemblies, dressing “in barbarous fashion” and leaving their cabins.

During the Civil War, St. Louis was a tense place. Many of its white residents came from the upland South, and the Mississippi River kept alive cultural and economic ties to the South. After the war, the black population stayed a stable 6 percent for several decades, concentrating in wards by the river and on the edge of downtown. But then came the Great Migration, a huge influx of Southern blacks heading north. They reached St. Louis just after a wave of Italian, Greek and Polish immigration — and a decrease in jobs.


In February 1915, a letter went out to white homeowners: “Dear Neighbor: DO YOU REALIZE that at any time you are liable to suffer an irreparable loss, due to the coming of NEGROES into the block in which you live or in which you own property?”

A group of St. Louisans wanted to use the reform provision in the city’s newly revised charter to enforce racial segregation. Despite opposition from the mayor and vocal politicians and church leaders, St. Louisans voted — 3 to 1 — to prevent blacks from moving into any neighborhood that was already 75 percent white (or vice versa). In 1916, St. Louis became the first city in the nation to pass a segregation ordinance by referendum.

A 1917 U.S. Supreme Court decision made that ordinance illegal. So white St. Louis homeowners began using racial covenants, securing promises from all neighborhood residents never to sell to a black person.

In 1948 the Supreme Court made the racial covenants illegal. So suburbs quickly put exclusive zoning restrictions into place, requiring large single-family lots. Banks made mortgage policies accordingly. Developers learned about blockbusting, and real estate agents learned to steer their clients’ flight from the city.


In the 1960s, before his rise to police chief and then mayor of St. Louis, Clarence Harmon tried to move into a new development, Paddock Woods, in North County’s Florissant municipality. He said he was told politely, “Well, sir, we are not selling homes to Negroes up here. There’s a case coming up before the U.S. Supreme Court” — Jones v. Mayer, resulting from Joseph Jones’ unsuccessful attempt to buy a house in Paddock Woods — “and that will determine whether we do.” Jones won his case, and Harmon moved in.

Years later, a friend of Harmon’s, an FBI agent, was planning to move to St. Louis and called a real estate agent about a house in Florissant. Not realizing he was African-American, she murmured, “Oh, you don’t want to live up there. All the blacks live there.”


John Wright, former assistant superintendent of the Ferguson-Florissant school district, remembers a chain stretched across a road to cut off access from the black city of Kinloch to then-white Ferguson. Wright is now retired and is a cultural ambassador to Senegal. “I tell people I grew up in an apartheid town,” he said. “The only two places I remember being able to go were the public library and the St. Louis Zoo. Everything else was determined by where you lived and your skin color.”

There are two reasons St. Louis looks the way it does today, noted Michael Allen, director of the Preservation Research Office. “There’s been this perpetual, successive flight of white and middle-class people from the core of the city, and the same relationships tended to reconstitute themselves across a wide swath of geography. The city’s tensions very quickly re-emerged in North County, and the trajectory suggests that they will re-emerge in St. Charles County,” the next stopover on the flight path. “The flashpoint keeps moving further from the center of the city, but it’s still the same flashpoint.”

Blacks and whites are also separated psychologically, Allen added. Starting in the days of slave ownership, “there was always this white fear of franchise and agency. What would happen if the slaves revolted? If they got the right to vote? If thousands came and took our jobs? If they lived next door? If they came to the suburbs we built to get away from them? Or the suburbs we built to get away from those suburbs?”


In reaction, St. Louis “has spent enormous sums of public money to spatially reinforce human segregation patterns,” Allen said. “We tore out the core of the city around downtown, just north and south and west, and fortified downtown as an island, by removing so-called slum neighborhoods. Then we demolished vacant housing in the Ville [where rocker Chuck Berry and opera singer Grace Bumbry grew up] and other historic black neighborhoods. These were not accidents. These were inflicted wounds.”

Many black residents wound up renting, moving often and never acquiring home equity or savings to bequeath to their children. The areas where they lived had no tax base, inadequate schools and no appeal to local businesses that could have provided jobs.

“Black communities in urban areas don’t have Whole Foods. They don’t have Starbucks. They don’t have work,” said Gerald Early, director of African-American studies at Washington University. “And that goes back to legalized segregation. They were basically set up to not be able to compete with white communities, to remind people every day that they were inferior to whites.”


Early blamed St. Louis’ geographic fragmentation for “exacerbating segregation. The fragmentation tends to go along racial lines. If St. Louis City were 90 percent white, the county would say, ‘Yeah, that’s cool, let’s have a merger.’ But unification is not taking place for racial reasons, and African-Americans are very aware of that. In essence, they are being told by whites, ‘We don’t really want to be with you as citizens.’”

St. Louis might look inclusive; the city has had two African-American mayors, and the county has had an African-American chief executive. But “electoral politics promised more than it ultimately delivered, because power is diffuse,” Early said. “It’s in the economic realm. It’s in the cultural realm. And in those areas in St. Louis, black people have very little power and very little influence. They have very little presence.”

“St. Louis feels a little Southern, and some of the white people have a kind of Southern, genteel, patrician way about them,” he continued. “If you are part of the white elite, you are saying, ‘We are doing things for you. We are trying to help. We have this or that special program for you.’ But clearly, after a while — and I think the blowup in Ferguson is a perfect example — people get angry, and they get fed up, and those things are not enough.
TSJones
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by TSJones »

Ever been to East St Louis? I have. Unless things have changed in the 15-20 years, it is run like a third world African country such as Sierra Leone or Liberia. Nothing but devastation and crime. That is not to say there are not nice people there because there are, but 10% -20% of the population there live unbound by any responsibility. And they make life hell for everyone else.
TSJones
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by TSJones »

I think a lot of police are physically scared. If you touch them some of them will over react and execute you on the spot. I think to be a cop you MUST have certain physical attributes and a mentality that you don't mind mixing it up if someone gets physical. Instead some cops see a 6'3" guy like Mike brown and they empty their gun at him. I question why these people are police. It is wonderful to be able to wear a uniform and order people around but if you get into difficulty the only answer you got is to start shooting? Young black men are physical. They are descendants of warriors who were basically POWs that were sold into slavery by one triumphant African kingdom over another. If you are going to be a cop in a ghetto, you can't be afraid to get your uniform dirty and ripped. You should know your defensive martial arts and be more than willing to mix it up in order to place the suspect in cuffs. You don't like that? Then get out of the ghetto and go work in Beverly Hills or something like that. Contrary to popular myth Wyatt Earp as town marshal didn't kill every drunk cowboy that got cross wise with him. He generally clobbered them and threw them into jail.
ramana
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by ramana »

TSJ, I can get one shot but half a dozen shots? If they are so afraid why are they in the police?
The prime reason for Ferguson bust up is the fact that Missouri was a slave state. Sherman should have been sent there instead of Atlanta.
They are still in the Civil War mood.
Recall it was the 1850 decision to admit Missouri as a slave state that triggered the Civil war ten years later.
TSJones
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by TSJones »

ramana wrote:TSJ, I can get one shot but half a dozen shots? If they are so afraid why are they in the police?
The prime reason for Ferguson bust up is the fact that Missouri was a slave state. Sherman should have been sent there instead of Atlanta.
They are still in the Civil War mood.
Recall it was the 1850 decision to admit Missouri as a slave state that triggered the Civil war ten years later.
Missouri like Kentucky, was a border state with divided loyalties. My family is from Kentucky and they fought for the Union, the same for many people in Missouri. What you have in St. Louis is white flight out to the further away suburbs leaving a growing black population near the inner city but with the same white leadership and city personnel with a resulting disconnect from the black population. In the long run, it's just not going to work. What happens later is East St. Louis.
UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

I find that killing of the disturbed man today most disturbing. When they get a report of a guy walking around evidently disturbed, do they have no plan other than to pull a gun? In a case a few years back there was a case of an ex-PIGS coming back to a US campus with a sword (collector's item I suppose), totally wacko, went berserk trying to cut up some poor guy, cornered in an office. He tried warding off the blows and suffered severe cuts, but is today recovered and seems fairly OK. But the swordsman was then cornered by one or two campus policemen. Far from shooting him, these policeman went straight in at the sword and grabbed it - and got a bad cut on his hand. But he subdued the attacker. I think the guy was eventually found incompetent after about a year behind bars, and deported (his parents, both prominent doctors in Mumbai, came and got him). I don't expect policemen to be THAT brave and take cuts every time someone goes wacko, but this is proof positive that there ARE policemen who are that brave and that compassionate. Can't they devise some net (like Spiderman) to immobilize a guy who does not have a gun or bomb? Or in this St. Louis case, some sort of teargas/ mace even a taser should have solved the problem. Instead it sounds like many policemen would just prefer to walk into a situation where they can concoct an excuse of "Oh! the attacker was only 3 feet from Officer Trigger, so all of us got in some good shooting practice, emptying our machine guns into the guy. Yessir! TOTAL self-defense and fast-reacting Quick Thinking, Excellent Marksmanship to Save A Fellow Officer. That is of course sickening. Very sad.
UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

And if you had any remaining doubts who the Racists are, or that the LAPD has lots of stupid ppl: Look at the name. :roll: :roll:
Gus
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Gus »

UB, there are worse cases out there.

the most gruesome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas
two acquitted and one dropped by DA after that.

this is more recent

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/us/albuqu ... stigation/


It just seems that cops first response is to empty clips.

few days ago, a bunch of cops were searching for somebody in my neighborhood, apparently a domestic violence case. one of them had gun drawn and two had hands on holster. i went out to porch to see whats going on, and one of them barked "GO INSIDE" at me, and i bolted inside.
UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

The fear reaction is by no means limited to Polis facing One Community, though no doubt there are more incidents of fatal outcomes with One Community (implying fewer inhibitions/procedural hindrances when ppl of One Community are involved).
Many saal pehle my 6th coujin had a classmate who later became a NASA Associate Administrator after having flown the Shuttle hajaar times, and F-15s karod-karod times, a very smart individual of course, and of The Other Community (Majority Community) in appearance at least. He drove his darling yellow little Triumph TR-6 which he babied in his spare time, all the way from (West coast) to (southeast ). Came back to his apt one night, parked, and was going to put up the top when he saw cop staring down at him. Asked him to step out, and our herrow tried to reach for his license etc. Cop's gun came out instantly, safety catch clicked off. Not a good experience, as he related it. But just another normal evening for the cops in that nbd, they had been called out to some violent incident or other and were suspicious of everyone.

What Aphsar Datta says is of course 400% accurate, but I do question why he didn't let common sense overcome his Sense Of Need To Educate The Community and STFU.
Yayavar
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Yayavar »

Bcos now he is brophesor and needs to publish.... I was wondering the same though.
UlanBatori
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

Yep. OK, he's fair game. :rotfl: He should know the sheer idiocy of giving sensible, honest advice!
Dutta, a professor of homeland security and criminal justice at Colorado Technical University, could not be reached immediately for comment Wednesday on the uproar over his column.
That comes under "national and international recognition". "Professor Datta is an internationally renowned author, whose work has been cited 400,000,000 times", (mostly in hate mail).
Classic:
In a tweet linking to his response, the Washingtonian's Benjamin Freed wrote, "I challenged Officer Sunil Dutta. Hopefully he won't come hurt me."
That probably "went viral" with "Likes". Sooo much easier than thinking!
Tanaji
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Tanaji »

Given that cops are given extraordinary rights to kill or detain, they are expected to exercise due care. This seems entirely absent in American policing and this is a relatively new phenomena. The reasons given that cops are rookies just out of their teens or are afraid for their families are just that: excuses. If you are not able to exercise restraint and make judgment calls in a tense situation maybe you shouldn't be a chip in the first place.

It is amazing that the police used deadly force to stop the guy brandishing the knife. The force spends tones of money maintaining donated military equipment, yet does not seem to be able to afford tasers which are really the most basic non lethal tool available these days? Speaks volumes about the leadership and priorities of the force. It seems policing has reduced to adolescent adults playing with military hardware with trigger happy fingers...

People have suggested 2 ways to tackle an out of control police force: Body cameras and paying out damages from lawsuits from the police pension fund rather than the tax payer footing the bill. The former forces the police to be more considerate and the latter ensures that bad cops get exposed quickly by good ones who value their retirement funds...
Shreeman
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

UlanBatori wrote:Yep. OK, he's fair game. :rotfl: He should know the sheer idiocy of giving sensible, honest advice!
Dutta, a professor of homeland security and criminal justice at Colorado Technical University, could not be reached immediately for comment Wednesday on the uproar over his column.
That comes under "national and international recognition". "Professor Datta is an internationally renowned author, whose work has been cited 400,000,000 times", (mostly in hate mail).
Classic:
In a tweet linking to his response, the Washingtonian's Benjamin Freed wrote, "I challenged Officer Sunil Dutta. Hopefully he won't come hurt me."
That probably "went viral" with "Likes". Sooo much easier than thinking!
Oh, ye gaad! Why do I have to be in the wrong places! I know Brophessor Dutta personally. What has he gone and done now? Can someone repost the link? I missed it.
member_22733
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

Probably this fine piece of writing:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery ... llenge-me/
Shreeman
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

LokeshC wrote:Probably this fine piece of writing:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery ... llenge-me/
All I will say is, with conviction, that Mr Dutta should not have written this. He should have passed on the opportunity. He is not the right spokesperson for this line of reasoning.

The Post is really toilet paper now. I bet the piece will win some awards. For the curious, Google chacha has information. Not my place to link it.

Edit -- never mind. make up your mind.
member_22733
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

What he says makes half sense, do not irritate a cop and let him do his "job".

The definition of "job" varies from cop to cop, citizen to citizen (illegals included :) ), even SC has opined on what a cops job should be :- SC opined that the police are in no way responsible to "serve" or to "protect" the public, they are there only for "law enforcement".

If you irritate the cop, the cop can then dispense law enforcement with some emotional investment in it and you can get seriously hurt in the process. So his advice is stay below the radar and be meek. But what if the cop thinks his job is cleanse the street of the "unclean-non-white filth"? What if no matter how meek you are, the cop finds a way to prove that use of lethal force against you was justified? Installing a camera is a good idea, but the police unions will never let it happen. There is another suggestion making rounds: Making a law stating that any civil case that costs the state money should be payed from police pension funds. That will be fantastic, but good luck trying to pass it. Who will bell the cat?

The other thing he claims is that "cops rarely end up being wrong in case of lethal use of force". That is an extremely dumb argument, you will find lethal force always "justified" even if we were living in a fascist dictatorship that has daily summary executions by the hundreds. Simply because it is the very same cops that collect initial evidence of the homicide they committed and their own co-workers in the force that 'review' whether use of lethal force was justified. When the inmates are running the asylum, no one will be declared crazy.

Very confrontational and ill researched article. He is asking for empathy for the "good" cops out there, just like "moderate Islamics" asking for empathy while doing nothing when the fundoos go killing people. If the good ones dont speak out and control the "bad ones", the society will be hard pressed to find any empathy.

On a related note: How is this man a brophessor?
Last edited by member_22733 on 21 Aug 2014 07:08, edited 1 time in total.
Shreeman
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

^^^
Google Lokesh Chandra, Google some more.

What the man says makes no sense. Unfortunately. If there was ever a spectacular contradiction, thiis is it.

Edit -- Colorado tuition center, not ulan bator, thats how. I hear ulan bator is going the same way, though.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

He may make no sense, but if some brat happens to read his advice as a former cop, and gets The Fear into his head enough to be calm and passive and obedient when stopped by a cop, instead of throwing a tantrum as modern American (and Indian) brats have grown up doing, then it may save a life, and that's worth all the abuse that the poor ex-cop is getting. Many brats today simply have no experience of taking any criticism, or obeying simple instructions. That is at the root of about 2/3 of these tragedies. There is a place for Honor and Dignity, but trying to be smart-alecky when faced with an armed, hair-triggered, half-panicked young cop with his/her own huge load of emotional baggage, is a recipe for tragedy.

Truth be told, about half the cops I have encountered, and about 75% of the campus cops esp., appeared to have very serious emotional issues themselves. Like being around a stick of Fulminate of Mercury - you never know what might set them off. Throw racial/cross-cultural/international/religious/gender/educational/economic disparities into the mix, and it's absolutely explosive. But that's what you get, for what police are paid, anywhere.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

UlanBatori wrote:He may make no sense, but if some brat happens to read his advice as a former cop, and gets The Fear into his head enough to be calm and passive and obedient when stopped by a cop, instead of throwing a tantrum as modern American (and Indian) brats have grown up doing, then it may save a life, and that's worth all the abuse that the poor ex-cop is getting. Many brats today simply have no experience of taking any criticism, or obeying simple instructions. That is at the root of about 2/3 of these tragedies. There is a place for Honor and Dignity, but trying to be smart-alecky when faced with an armed, hair-triggered, half-panicked young cop with his/her own huge load of emotional baggage, is a recipe for tragedy.

Truth be told, about half the cops I have encountered, and about 75% of the campus cops esp., appeared to have very serious emotional issues themselves. Like being around a stick of Fulminate of Mercury - you never know what might set them off. Throw racial/cross-cultural/international/religious/gender/educational/economic disparities into the mix, and it's absolutely explosive. But that's what you get, for what police are paid, anywhere.
Google UlanBatori, google.

He should have passed on the opportunity, and someone sensible could have written a more coherent piece with similar advice. Then again, given that two stalwarts have chosen to take the prose at face value, and found essentially nothing out of place, then why should I begrudge someone their 15 minutes.

ps -- what has one said before, that can now come bite one in the nether parts?
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

UlanBatori wrote:He may make no sense, but if some brat happens to read his advice as a former cop, and gets The Fear into his head enough to be calm and passive and obedient when stopped by a cop, instead of throwing a tantrum as modern American (and Indian) brats have grown up doing, then it may save a life, and that's worth all the abuse that the poor ex-cop is getting. Many brats today simply have no experience of taking any criticism, or obeying simple instructions. That is at the root of about 2/3 of these tragedies. There is a place for Honor and Dignity, but trying to be smart-alecky when faced with an armed, hair-triggered, half-panicked young cop with his/her own huge load of emotional baggage, is a recipe for tragedy.

Truth be told, about half the cops I have encountered, and about 75% of the campus cops esp., appeared to have very serious emotional issues themselves. Like being around a stick of Fulminate of Mercury - you never know what might set them off. Throw racial/cross-cultural/international/religious/gender/educational/economic disparities into the mix, and it's absolutely explosive. But that's what you get, for what police are paid, anywhere.
While I dont condone bratty behavior towards cops (or anyone for that matter), there is no death penalty for being a brat as far as I know. While bratty behavior may deserve a proportionate response from the cops, let us not ignore the fact that many of the recent incidents of cops killing unarmed colored men and unarmed homeless people (who are usually mentally disabled/disturbed), were clearly not justified. The only conclusion I can come to is, if a cop is racist you are walking on egg-shells, even a slightest provocation like you going for your ID can set him/her off to unload a clip on you.

I learned from hard experience that the cop need not even be racist for you to end up dead. He can be paranoid. The provocation need not be deliberate for you to end up dead. The provocation could be as simple as something like you are mentally unable to comprehend what the cop is asking you to do OR it could be that your responses are fast or slow for the comfort level of the cop. What I am saying here might sound like a joke, until you end up on the wrong side of a gun held by an LEO.

I have been in a similar situation with the Border Patrol and had it not for my GHQ (american and white) being there with me, I am pretty sure I would have met my maker. The guy already had his weapon pointed at me and I heard the safety clicking off.

Here is all it took for it to happen: This occurred during a camping/road trip near a border region. Those days Mexico and the border was not as dangerous as it is today. Inexperience and the Sun were the biggest problems. We were stupid to camp in the area and I got real dehydrated and tired from a trek. The next day I was in half sleep mode sitting near the camp. I saw someone approach me and he asked me something. What he asked me did not register with me. I meant no disrespect, but I was just dazed, confused, dehydrated and tired. All that resulting in a dazed and confused me not able to follow anything what he was yelling. Each time I fumbled in following the instruction, he escalated. Soon he had his weapon pointed at me and the safety in the off position. It took me about 5 - 10 seconds to respond to his command to put my hands where he can see them. My GHQ was nearby and she was yelling at him saying I was just dehydrated and tired, and she can provide him with anything he wants to know. When he saw her, he de-escalated a bit and I was able to respond to him and lay on the ground, which resulted the gun going back in the holster. Once things got under control I gave him my ID. He looked at it, called up some folks and just left. No idea why he decided to hound me, maybe someone called in saying there were illegals in that area. Or there must have been a drug gang camping nearby. Maybe it was racist, just as the de-escalation on seeing my GHQ was. Either ways, I have no clue why it happened.


What if you are a deaf person? When the cop yells: "Place your hands where I can see them", in your panic you misread his lips and go for your wallet which is black in color, and watch yourself getting executed, of course in a totally justified, legal manner.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

Shreeman wrote:^^^
Google Lokesh Chandra, Google some more.

What the man says makes no sense. Unfortunately. If there was ever a spectacular contradiction, thiis is it.

Edit -- Colorado tuition center, not ulan bator, thats how. I hear ulan bator is going the same way, though.
Ahh, I assumed Colorado Juma Masjid madrassa, did not read carefully enough to find that it was not the main madrassa, but a tuition center for future nanhas.

I read a couple of his articles and discovered what you meant by "contradiction": This is a real life Jekyll and Hide personality.

Edit: Brophessars PeeChaddi is in Biology of all the things!!!! Whaaaa?
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

On improving the understanding between public and police as instructed by Brophessor Dutta -- yes, no?

A little more googling people, and you will be there in no time.

PS -- if still needed in two weeks time, I will post some links.
Last edited by Shreeman on 21 Aug 2014 10:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

^^^ Here are some gyan I have gotten from the learned Braphessor for today, eye opening ... onleee:
1) Police have very difficult life, they dont want to kill people but they are forced to due to fear created by citizens they come across.
>>>> This is like saying the fireman is afraid of the fire, and a soldier is afraid of the war. It is ironic, but it is true in the US.

The public at large assumes that the police is paid to put their lives in danger in order to help people live in peace. But the recent SC judgement and police behavior makes it clear that "law enforcement" or any distorted version of "enforcement" is what is expected out of them by the administration. In such a case, the taxpayer is not paying the police to put themselves in danger. Weirdly enough, the police in the US do NOT have to put their lives in danger under any circumstances.

What that means is under the smallest hint of danger, real or imagined, a policeman can "enforce" the law by hurting someone, usually in a fatal manner. They are legally entitled to do so. The caveat here being that the crime rate in the US is at its historical lows and it keeps dropping every year. Yet the arrest/incarceration rate keeps going up, disproportionately for non-whites.

2) People who get hurt/shot by police deserve it, they must have done "something wrong".
>>> There is nothing much to say at this point. There is little difference between fascism and this state of affairs. Since white people get hurt by the cops relatively rarely and non-whites non-model communities (i.e. non MUTU non-whites) are demonized, it takes very little evidence of from the policeman to convince that the victim (person of color) of his abuse did "something wrong" to deserve it. Whereas had the victim been a well connected or well "respected" white person, he would have to present far more evidence to justify the same abuse.

How these fact went over braphessaars head (himself being a person of color) is beyond me.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

AoA! I highly recommend what Supreme HQ does: watch all episodes of "Marshal Dillon". See the utter congestion on Boot Hill. Also contemplate the life expectancy of a "Marshal" in those days. Sure, that was "long ago", but as someone said, an engineer asleep for 20 years would wake up and be utterly confused my technological advances. A Humanities person/politician asleep for 2000 years would wake up today and be utterly comfortable, nothig has changed. Marshal Dillon is pictured as the ultimate in Justice and Fast-Gun Speed and Survivability, but if you watch more than 3 episodes, you get the point very clearly on what reality was and is like.

As for "proportionate response", what struck me about these Dillon shows is that EARLY DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE would have "de-escalated" most of those situations and ended the show in 5 mins vs. 30. Instead, Dillon's Law Enforcement style was like MS Dhoni's: tried very hard to ignore, then tried to patch up, then tried "proportionate" response. The Brats just keep escalating exponentially, with TERRIBLE results to The Meek. I found little comfort that in the end the Brats were carried off boots first to Boot Hill. The trauma and damage they left behind was permament for The Meek.

Alabama edition of The School Of The Americas (KKK/Aryan Nations madarssa) had the slogan:
KILL THEM ALL: LET GAWD SORT EM OUT
Of course that included you and me. I am NOT endorsing that pov, but one has to consider that as one of many solutions advocated and tried by ppl over the ages. Many may feel something of the sort even if they were by nature all Fair and Just, after they/ relatives/ loved ones have been traumatized. For more on this, watch
The Outlaw Jesse James
Inside the first 15 mins you are on the side of the outlaw, thirsting for blood (of The Side Of The Law) :eek:

And just as a point to consider about recent events:
Proportionate Response was when the desi store clerk tried reasoning with the store robber. It is a miracle that that brave but poor guy is (hopefully) still alive. Why do you think there should be more, and more, and more, "proportionate responses" to brats? Until how many innocents are traumatized?

Proportionate Response is what the brats count on. See Paki behavior, for the pre-eminent example of why Proportionate Response does not work.

One good emptying of a machine-gun is sooo much more educational than a 1000 "proportionate responses" and tolerating nonsense, hain? Saves 999 Brat-lives, so many bullets, plus countless innocents who would have been traumatized by those Brats. Which (plus the Peace of Boot Hill) is why they called the Colt 44 The PeaceMaker.

That said, I am not sure at all that the decedent in Ferguson was the actual store robber, as opposed to his Friend.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by anmol »

www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix ... rebellion/

Report: USAID used HIV program in Cuba to foment rebellion
by Fred Barbash, washingtonpost.com

The Associated Press is reporting that an Obama administration program secretly dispatched young Latin Americans to Cuba using the cover of health and civic programs to provoke political change, a clandestine operation that put those foreigners in danger even after a U.S. contractor was hauled away to a Cuban jail.

According to a team of AP reporters:
Beginning as early as October 2009, a project overseen by the U.S. Agency for International Development sent Venezuelan, Costa Rican and Peruvian young people to Cuba in hopes of ginning up rebellion. The travelers worked undercover, often posing as tourists, and traveled around the island scouting for people they could turn into political activists.

In one case, the workers formed an HIV-prevention workshop that memos called ‘the perfect excuse’ for the program’s political goals – a gambit that could undermine America’s efforts to improve health globally.

But their efforts were fraught with incompetence and risk, an Associated Press investigation found: Cuban authorities questioned who was bankrolling the travelers. The young workers nearly blew their mission to ‘identify potential social-change actors.’ One said he got a paltry, 30-minute seminar on how to evade Cuban intelligence, and there appeared to be no safety net for the inexperienced workers if they were caught.

‘Although there is never total certainty, trust that the authorities will not try to harm you physically, only frighten you,’ read a memo obtained by the AP. ‘Remember that the Cuban government prefers to avoid negative media reports abroad, so a beaten foreigner is not convenient for them.’

In all, nearly a dozen Latin Americans served in the program in Cuba, for pay as low as $5.41 an hour.

The AP found USAID and its contractor, Creative Associates International, continued the program even as U.S. officials privately told their government contractors to consider suspending travel to Cuba after the arrest of contractor Alan Gross, who remains imprisoned after smuggling in sensitive technology.
The full story, as well as supporting documents, is here.

In April, the AP reported that USAID had operated a social media network in Cuba until 2012.

Commenting to AP, USAID put out this statement:

“USAID and the Obama administration are committed to supporting the Cuban people’s desire to freely determine their own future. USAID works with independent youth groups in Cuba on community service projects, public health, the arts and other opportunities to engage publicly, consistent with democracy programs worldwide.”
Groups: US political effort in Cuba hurts aid work

Aug 4, 11:19 PM EDT

By DESMOND BUTLER, JACK GILLUM, PETER ORSI and ANDREA RODRIGUEZ


WASHINGTON (AP) -- A U.S. program in Cuba that secretly used an HIV-prevention workshop for political activism was assailed Monday by international public health officials and members of Congress who declared that such clandestine efforts put health programs at risk around the world.

Beginning in late 2009, the U.S. Agency for International Development deployed nearly a dozen young people from Latin America to Cuba to recruit political activists, an Associated Press investigation found. The operation put the foreigners in danger not long after a U.S. contractor was hauled away to a Cuban jail.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said Monday it would be "worse than irresponsible" if USAID "concocted" an HIV-prevention workshop to promote a political agenda.

And InterAction, an alliance of global non-governmental aid groups, said, "The use of an HIV workshop for intelligence purposes is unacceptable. The U.S. government should never sacrifice delivering basic health services or civic programs to advance an intelligence goal."

The Obama administration defended its use of the HIV-prevention workshop for its Cuban democracy-promotion efforts but disputed that the project was a front for political purposes. The program "enabled support for Cuban civil society, while providing a secondary benefit of addressing the desires Cubans express for information and training about HIV prevention," said State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki.

Documents and interviews make clear that the program was aimed at recruiting a younger generation of opponents to Cuba's Castro government. It is illegal in Cuba to work with foreign democracy-building programs. Documents prepared for the USAID-sponsored program called the HIV workshop the "perfect excuse" to conduct political activity.

Leahy, who is chairman of the Senate appropriations subcommittee that oversees USAID, said in response to the AP's findings: "It may have been good business for USAID's contractor, but it tarnishes USAID's long track record as a leader in global health."

The White House is still facing questions about a once-secret "Cuban Twitter" project, known as ZunZuneo. That program, launched by USAID in 2009 and uncovered by the AP in April, established a primitive social media network under the noses of Cuban officials. USAID's inspector general is investigating it.

In April, Leahy called the ZunZuneo program "dumb, dumb, dumb."

But on Monday, not all lawmakers were critical.

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., said USAID's programs were important for human rights in Cuba. "We must continue to pressure the Castro regime and support the Cuban people, who are oppressed on a daily basis," said Ros-Lehtinen, a Cuban native and vocal supporter of pro-democracy programs there.

As for health projects, the latest criticisms come months after a pledge by the CIA to stop using vaccine programs - such as one in Pakistan that targeted Osama bin Laden - to gather intelligence.

In the HIV workshop effort, the AP's investigation found the Latin American travelers' efforts were fraught with incompetence and risk. The young workers nearly blew their mission to "identify potential social-change actors." One said he got a paltry, 30-minute seminar on how to evade Cuban intelligence, and there appeared to be no safety net for the inexperienced workers if they were caught.

In all, nearly a dozen Latin Americans served in the program in Cuba, for pay as low as $5.41 an hour.

The AP found USAID and its contractor, Creative Associates International, continued the program even as U.S. officials privately told their government contractors to consider suspending travel to Cuba after the arrest of contractor Alan Gross, who remains imprisoned after smuggling in sensitive technology. A lawyer for Gross said Monday that his client cannot take life in prison much longer and has said his goodbyes to his wife and a daughter.

"We value your safety," one senior USAID official said in an email concerning the Latin American travelers. "The guidance applies to ALL travelers to the island, not just American citizens," another official said.

Creative Associates declined to comment, referring questions to USAID.

"All governments need to make trade-offs, for example, between civil liberties and public safety," said Les Roberts, a professor at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. In the case of Cuba, he said, there is a trade-off between conducting neutral development efforts and "the political goal of regime change in Cuba."

"Without the appearance of neutrality," he said, "few things USAID wants to do internationally can be achieved."

Drawing on documents and interviews worldwide, the AP found the travelers program went to extensive lengths to hide the workers' activities. They were to communicate in code: "I have a headache" meant they suspected they were being monitored by Cuban authorities; "Your sister is ill" was an order to cut their trip short.

To evade Cuban authorities, travelers installed innocent-looking content on their laptops to mask sensitive information. They used encrypted memory sticks to hide their files and sent obviously encrypted emails using a system that might have drawn suspicion.

"These programs are in desperate need of adult supervision," said Sen. Jeff Flake, an Arizona Republican and longtime critic of USAID's Cuba projects. "If you are using an AIDS workshop as a front for something else, that's - I don't know what to say - it's just wrong."

Both the travelers program and ZunZuneo were part of a larger, multimillion-dollar effort by USAID to effect change in politically volatile countries, government data show. But the programs reviewed by the AP didn't appear to achieve their goals and operated under an agency known more for its international-aid work than stealthy operations.

The travelers' project was funded under the same pot of federal money that paid for ZunZuneo. But USAID has yet to provide the AP with a complete copy of the Cuban contracts despite a Freedom of Information Act request filed more than three months ago.

---

Orsi reported from Havana, and Rodriguez from Santa Clara, Cuba. Associated Press writers Hannah Dreier in Caracas, Venezuela; Peter Orsi in Havana; Frank Bajak in Lima, Peru; Raphael Satter in Dublin; Alberto Arce in San Jose, Costa Rica; and Monika Mathur in Washington contributed to this report.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by UlanBatori »

AHA! In classic Anmolist style, the purpose of the Berkeley Haas School India Riots Project has not been clarified: It IS a shame to send people with only "one 30-min seminar". Such things should properly be outsourced by the GOTUS to the Top Universities such as UC Berkeley. Now you see why the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboraties are used as the vehicle to do this:
Beginning as early as October 2009, a project overseen by the U.S. Agency for International Development sent Venezuelan, Costa Rican and Peruvian young people to Cuba in hopes of ginning up rebellion. The travelers worked undercover, often posing as tourists, and traveled around the island scouting for people they could turn into political activists. In one case, the workers formed an HIV-prevention workshop that memos called ‘the perfect excuse’ for the program’s political goals – a gambit that could undermine America’s efforts to improve health globally.
But their efforts were fraught with incompetence and risk, an Associated Press investigation found: Cuban authorities questioned who was bankrolling the travelers. The young workers nearly blew their mission to ‘identify potential social-change actors.’ One said he got a paltry, 30-minute seminar on how to evade Cuban intelligence, and there appeared to be no safety net for the inexperienced workers if they were caught.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Shreeman »

For what it is worth, I expected a two week fatigue period. It turned out to be 10 days in Ferguson. All of a sudden, gone from all media. Op-eds glorifying cop actions and advising masses on how to surrender. The accepted narrative is a robber attacked the cop (fractured his eye socket, no less) then came back to attack him, poor chap had no choice but to shoot this 500 pound gorilla.

Eventually see the hero be acquitted of all charges and awarded a citation or two. Media focuses on Foley treatment, Eukraine, ISIL. All glory to the hypnotode propaganda. We are in for some dark times. The end is nigh! I tell ya.

ps - the second ferguson shooting
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Gus »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/ ... UI20140815
A 19-year-old woman brandishing a power drill was shot dead by a police officer in San Jose on Thursday, police said.

Police received a report that morning that a woman was threatening to kill her family with an Uzi assault weapon, San Jose Police spokeswoman Heather Randol said in a news release.

When they arrived at the family's home, they saw the woman outside, holding what they thought was a weapon, Randol said.

Officers asked her to drop it, but she did not, pointing it at them instead, Randol said. One of the officers, Wakana Okuma, shot the woman, who was taken to a local hospital and pronounced dead.

Randol said Okuma, who has been placed on administrative leave, "feared for her safety and the safety of the public" when she shot the woman.

Officers later realized the woman had been holding a cordless drill that was painted black, Randol said.
shoot first, ask questions later.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Tanaji »

That video is chilling for its simplicity and how quickly things go down. The cops roll up, get out and shoot him down. I think it takes more time for garbage disposal men to pick up the trash bags than it took for the police to shoot the man. There was no gradual escalation, just start shooting..i think I counted at least 5 shots.

Wow.

The other one.. Who paints their drills in a different colour? How many people do you know whose hobby it's drill painting? Of all the reasons one hears....
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by vishvak »

The wonderful guys from humanities - from Universities or ones too caring about kids in Syria gassed by Assed or ones talking about WMDs in Iraq or ones blaming Russians for Ukraine crisis - are not indulging in blame game anymore. No blame on majority of USA, no blame on religion of majority, not even a question about lack of minority politics through USA - by the very same people carrying burden of morals/ethics and in habit of lecturing others. When it comes to USA, it becomes very clear that there is not much one can do when facing anyone with knife/power-drill and the police has right to defend bodily harm as also that majority or majority religion (in USA only) can NOT be blamed for this.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by Tanaji »

For me this video was more chilling than the first beheading video on YouTube that I f regrettably saw many years ago. At least one expects that with those animals. Here we have a fairly average neighbourhood and the guy gets killed.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

Once you realize that the only reason why the police are there is for "law enforcement", then all this becomes clear. They will not put their lives in danger, real or imagined, at any cost. The cost is usually borne by a civilian target.

For example: What if the drill painted as an uzi was the OTHER way around? What if it was an Uzi painted as a drill? In such a case, everyones life in a 20 feet radius is in danger. So the safest response of a Law Enforcement officer (aka "peace officer") is to shoot anyone pointing anything resembling a drill at anybody. Heck, that person does not even have to point it, an attempt to lift it up is a potential danger to the life and person of the "peace officer" and he or she can respond with enough force to neutralize such a threat.

Same with a mentally retarded person holding a knife. That knife can be thrown at the police officer. Even worse, it could be an explosive device that is disguised as a kitchen knife. So any mentally challenged, disturbed person is a potential danger and the peace officer can respond with enough force so that the threat is no longer there. Usually it means that the mentally challenged person will end up in the morgue.

Now, if someone is temporarily mentally unsound, due to a crash or an accident :- like in the case of this young man. The peace officers do not know why this young man was lunging towards them. He could have carried a lethal weapon behind his back and then used it against the peace officers. In such a case, someone crawling or stumbling towards a peace officer asking for help post accident is a potential danger to the police officer and the officers is in his right to use lethal force until the person stops crawling. A grand jury ended up not pressing charges against the officer, probably for the same reasons I outlined before. Anyone who stumbles towards a police officer after an accident is a potential danger to him/her.

There are after all brats everywhere. onleeee.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

Shreeman wrote:For what it is worth, I expected a two week fatigue period. It turned out to be 10 days in Ferguson. All of a sudden, gone from all media. Op-eds glorifying cop actions and advising masses on how to surrender. The accepted narrative is a robber attacked the cop (fractured his eye socket, no less) then came back to attack him, poor chap had no choice but to shoot this 500 pound gorilla.

Eventually see the hero be acquitted of all charges and awarded a citation or two. Media focuses on Foley treatment, Eukraine, ISIL. All glory to the hypnotode propaganda. We are in for some dark times. The end is nigh! I tell ya.

ps - the second ferguson shooting
I have long since realized that we are on a one way ticket to darkness. So far, it has not impacted mainstream whites. Give it a decade or two when even more manufacturing gets outsourced and the white middle class disappears. By then everyone will be fair game and it will be too late.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by panduranghari »

Decade or Two? Its likely to come to fruition sooner.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

Tanaji wrote:That video is chilling for its simplicity and how quickly things go down. The cops roll up, get out and shoot him down. I think it takes more time for garbage disposal men to pick up the trash bags than it took for the police to shoot the man.There was no gradual escalation, just start shooting..i think I counted at least 5 shots.

Wow.

The other one.. Who paints their drills in a different colour? How many people do you know whose hobby it's drill painting? Of all the reasons one hears....
There is no need for gradual escalation. The use of force is a yes/no question. Is that subject a peace officer is trying to control perceived as a danger to the peace officer?

Yes --> use lethal force. No --> use non-lethal force.

In my case, it went from initial approach to gun pointed at me with safety off in less than 1 minute, probably less than 30 seconds. My memory is hazy on what really went on. My bet is that if there was no de-escalation, he would have shot me "center of mass" to reduce whatever threat he was perceiving me to be. Had I stumbled forward after standing up, I would most likely have been shot until I stopped moving.

Both these tactics : shooting at the center of mass, and shooting till the threat stops moving is one of the first things that any peace officer learns during his training.
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by member_22733 »

UlanBatori wrote:AoA! I highly recommend what Supreme HQ does: watch all episodes of "Marshal Dillon". See the utter congestion on Boot Hill. Also contemplate the life expectancy of a "Marshal" in those days. Sure, that was "long ago", but as someone said, an engineer asleep for 20 years would wake up and be utterly confused my technological advances. A Humanities person/politician asleep for 2000 years would wake up today and be utterly comfortable, nothig has changed. Marshal Dillon is pictured as the ultimate in Justice and Fast-Gun Speed and Survivability, but if you watch more than 3 episodes, you get the point very clearly on what reality was and is like.

As for "proportionate response", what struck me about these Dillon shows is that EARLY DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE would have "de-escalated" most of those situations and ended the show in 5 mins vs. 30. Instead, Dillon's Law Enforcement style was like MS Dhoni's: tried very hard to ignore, then tried to patch up, then tried "proportionate" response. The Brats just keep escalating exponentially, with TERRIBLE results to The Meek. I found little comfort that in the end the Brats were carried off boots first to Boot Hill. The trauma and damage they left behind was permament for The Meek.
In UlanBator Madrassa, one must have learned about estimation and detection problem and Type-1 and Type-2 errors? In most statistical distributions, Type-1 vs Type-2 errors have an inverse correlation.

As far as crime goes, the US politicians (and the white frame of mind), has very little tolerance for Type-2 errors. This is true when the person in question is any civilian of any color that can potentially commit a violent or criminal act when the cops are on the receiving side (cop killer.. etc). This is also true for any non-white who can potentially commit or is suspected of committing a criminal act against any part of white society.

Now when you go for things such as "zero tolerance" as the braphessar was braying in his rabble rousing artical. What you are trying to do is to reduce Type-2 errors to 0. In such a case, Type-1 errors will shoot up, and that is a natural consequence, especially for a "normal distribution".

Zero tolerance for drugs is another example. Most drug users are white, but most in Prison are black. One can wonder why. Type-2 errors for blacks are scaled to 0. Resulting in large Type-1 errors, which means a large percentage of blacks being in Prison for committing no crime.

This thinking is exactly what made the KKK say what they say below:
UlanBatori wrote:Alabama edition of The School Of The Americas (KKK/Aryan Nations madarssa) had the slogan:

KILL THEM ALL: LET GAWD SORT EM OUT
Of course that included you and me. I am NOT endorsing that pov, but one has to consider that as one of many solutions advocated and tried by ppl over the ages. Many may feel something of the sort even if they were by nature all Fair and Just, after they/ relatives/ loved ones have been traumatized.
UlanBator madrassas never teach real history. All that is "alternative" history: taken up by the likes of Ronald Takaki or James Bradley (who wrote The Imperial Cruise). Alas, we only see sanitized history in Ulan Bator's media.

If you think that there is "some" justification for what the KKK was doing, and you do believe so, then you are no different than the people who created the Jim Crow era. You are no different than a cartoonist who draws a caricature of the black brute. A similar version of the "black brute" stereotype is being created now: It is the "Indian male rapist" stereotype.

There is a lot that is already written about this stereotype and if you care to you can read the following (as you can see I am a fan of this guy abagond despite his distorted view of India and his devout Catholicism) :
1) http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/brute/
2) http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/23 ... tereotype/
And you also fall into the following category (for probably no fault of yours):
3) http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/02/09 ... ple-think/
and this
4) http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/31 ... nd-racism/
and most likely this as well:
5) http://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/29 ... -argument/

For your edification here is a quote from abagond:
As stereotypes go, this one is pretty new: it did not arise till the 1870s, after the black slaves were freed. As slaves they were seen as simple and childlike. Once freed, they were seen as being wild and out of control.

So if blacks were not kept in line by terror and lynchings, black men would freely rape white women. What, after all, would stop them? This became the stated excuse for Jim Crow – to protect pure white women against savage black men. When Congress tried to pass a law against lynching, white Southerners blocked it in the Senate for just this reason.

As it turns out, of all the blacks who were lynched only about one in seven was guilty of raping a white woman. In the case of Emmett Till all he did was call a white woman “Baby”. That was enough for her husband and her brother to kill him, a 14-year-old boy – and get away with it.

I would suggest you to read the works of Ronald Takaki, to realize what was the real price that the blacks payed. Most blacks are angry and have mental issues today. Most have undiagnosed PTSD, just like their parents had. They got it from their parents and so on and so forth until you realize that post slavery there was a generational transmission of PTSD. The blacks were completely cut out from the white economy and any attempt to give them some redemption, as in the case of 40 acres and a mule, was met with consistent and successful resistance. That resistance continues to this day in one form or the other.

Here is something more for you to chew on:
1) http://www.blackpast.org/aah/forty-acres-and-mule
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Traum ... e_Syndrome
3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma

When there are historical and generational issues as deep as this, I would suggest a little more empathy. Especially since we as Indians ourselves have not recovered from our own trans generational trauma.

Again my own disclaimer: I or my family may end up being a victim of a violent crime committed by a black person. That will not make me seek the nuclear option to wipe them off the face of the earth. I would like justice, just as any other person would. However I would not want someone killed just for roughing me up.
A_Gupta
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Post by A_Gupta »

In other states, claims of self-defense need to be proven as more likely than not, or in legal speak, to a “preponderance of the evidence.” It’s still the state’s obligation to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that the defendant actually killed the victim. But once that’s established, the prosecution doesn’t also have to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that the killing wasn’t justified. That’s because justifications—like self-defense—require the accused to make an active case, called an “affirmative defense,” that the circumstances were exceptional. The logic here is simple: As a rule, homicide is a crime and justification is reserved for extraordinary cases. Once the state has proven that a defendant did in fact kill someone, it should be the accused’s obligation to prove his or her actions were justified.

Not in most states today, including Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused. The prosecution must not only prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, but also disprove a defendant’s claim of self-defense to the same high standard. Under Missouri law, all a citizen claiming self-defense or a police officer claiming to have fired while pursuing a dangerous criminal need do is “inject the issue of justification.” In other words, he only needs to produce some evidence (his own testimony counts) supporting the claim. Once he does so, “any reasonable doubt on the issue requires a finding for the defendant.” In Missouri, the burden doesn’t budge an inch, even after we know that the defendant has killed the victim.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1191 ... impossible
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