Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

[SSridhar]

The story of the 4 dead MI officers

In a recognisable pattern, the version of the Chakwal incident on Friday, November 12 presented by Interior Minister Rehman Malik is different in vital respects to that being reported by other sources like the BBC. While Malik continues to insist the killing of four Military Intelligence (MI) operatives in Chakwal by the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) was the result of an operation to smoke out and eliminate criminal and extremist elements ensconced in the area, the alternative account says quite the opposite. BBC reported ‘sensitive agency’ sources as having revealed that LeJ had abducted four MI operatives as hostages to barter for 20 of their party members arrested in the tribal areas by the military. The four operatives were then killed when an operation to rescue them was mounted. It is also interesting that ‘security agency’ sources support Malik’s version. However, the reason ‘sensitive agency’ sources and their version appear more credible is that the military is not known to go after militants of any description in the settled areas of Pakistan for various reasons. Leaders and members of various militant and extremist organisations live and operate freely in many parts of Pakistan’s settled and urban areas, particularly in Lahore, Quetta, Karachi and South Punjab, in full knowledge of government and security agencies. If it was a unilateral strike against an extremist organisation in Punjab, it would have been the first of its kind.

Though it is tragic that four MI operatives were killed, one hopes the incident will highlight for the establishment that extremists of any stripe can, and will, strike out at them whenever it suits. It is shortsighted in the extreme to consider any of these outfits as ‘assets’ for ‘strategic’ objectives. A very worrying aspect highlighted by the story is the indication that many security agencies and the civil and military bureaucracy of the country have been deeply infiltrated by extremist organisations. It appears the four were killed as a result of the rescue operation being leaked to the LeJ. Reports hint at elements within the Punjab Police being the source of the leak. This is not the first indication of such infiltration. The cases of ex-commissioner of Malakand Javed Mohammad, the Mehran base attack in Karachi, the assassination of Governor Punjab Salmaan Taseer by a member of Punjab police’s elite commando unit, and numerous others spring to mind immediately.

It is vital that alongside the war on extremist combatants, urgent action be taken to weed out militant sympathisers from within government and security agencies. One can only hope the Chakwal incident proves to be a blessing in disguise, with the army jolted out of its complacency with regard to violent sectarian outfits. It is also high time the Punjab government learnt some lessons with regard to appeasement of extremists, and acts before the situation reaches a point of no return. *

[chetak]

Guys,

as much I could not even watch 1 second of that b!tch BD smoozing with the war crimninal about Dawood, but I think our outrage is misplaced. What Mush said about Dawood retaliating to Gujarat, has been said by many Indians, including from the highest levels of Indian govt & media in some shape or the other. Recently, that chutiya whose blog is posted on BBC web site Biswas whatever, pretty much said the same thing, namely, communal violence in India causes heartburn in TSP and hence terror against India is justified. It was an interesting faux paux from Mush, confusing Gujarat with Mumbai 93, but it reveals Mush's and Paki chutzpah in general, namely, we are the guardian of Muslim interests. DocJi has it right, but what he didn't give any insight into was, with this kind of a false narrative prevailing in both India & TSP, namely, TSP terror is justified because India's communal cauldron from time to time, how does India transcend this brazen falsehood hoisted on it and has a life of its own?

Why is burqha begum providing such a platform?

Why is undietv allowing this?

As our fearless moderator asked, Cui bono?

Do we need to look far?

[Pranav]

The trouble, at least for me, is that GoI is treating Pakistan as any other normal nation-state. Worse, they may be treating TSP as a welcome return of the prodigal son.

The Paks should not be allowed to derive any substantive advantage from India as long as their hatred endures.

However, the Paks are a tool created by colonial powers for a specific purpose. Improving the atmospherics in a way that allows them to direct their rage elsewhere is not a bad thing.

[chaanakya]

At least 15 dead in South Waziristan drone strike

63rd , will reach 72 before year end. Inshallah , Most Favoured Nutts called TTP

MIRAMSHAH: A salvo of missiles fired by US drones destroyed a Pakistani Taliban base on Wednesday, killing at least 15 suspected militants in Pakistan’s tribal badlands on the Afghan border, officials said.

Up to 10 missiles slammed into the sprawling compound in the Baber Ghar area of South Waziristan, killing between 15 and 18 militants, most of whom were reported to be local Taliban fighters, the Pakistani security officials said.

Five US drones carried out the attack, one of the officials told AFP.

“The target was a base of Pakistan Taliban. We have reports that 16 to 18 militants were killed in the attack,” the official told AFP in the northwestern city of Peshawar.

Another official in Peshawar put the death toll at 15.

But a third official in Wana, the main town of South Waziristan, said 16 militants were killed, while also confirming that the target was a base of Pakistan’s umbrella Taliban faction, Tehreek-e-Taliban.
“I have reports that some foreigners were also killed,” the official told AFP. Pakistani officials typically use the word “foreigner” to denote al Qaeda and Uzbek Islamist militants.

“The area is far-flung and deep in the mountains. We are having difficulties in getting complete information,” the same official added.

Officials said the attack took place at around 2:30 am about three kilometres from the border of Afghanistan’s Paktia province, one of the flashpoints in the 10-year Taliban insurgency.

Wednesday’s strike was the 63rd so far this year, according to an AFP tally.

On Tuesday, six militants were reported killed in a similar drone strike in Miramshah, the main town of the adjacent North Waziristan district.

[Pranav]

Well the way I see it is that the Pakis support telebunnies against the US, because US is not "all out" against the Indians. ... if the US were to guarantee an Anti-Indian Afghanistan with a free hand to Pakistan to establish camps to train yahoos to fight in J&K, Pakistan will gladly massacre the Anti-US taliban.

OTOH China and Pakistan's interest vis-a-vis India coincide. India's defeat and breakup is something that China would want and will supply Pakis with money and weapons to enable this. Under this circumstance, it makes no sense for the Pakis to support the Wiggles in China expecting even greater aid. Because that would just kill the duck that lays the golden egg. OTOH, if China agrees to a 20 year pact of modernizing Pakistan's armed forces, Pakis will go and gladly massacre their Muslim brethren.

Excellent points.

However, there is another angle. Having lost East Pakistan, the only way the Paks can bulk up sufficiently to take on India is to colonize Afghanistan and make vassals of the Central Asian Republics. But that collides with western interests in Central Asia. Also, the west knows that the Paks are using them, they cannot be relied on to support western geopolitical goals (especially with respect to China) if they become too strong.

[RajeshA]

We may have our own arguments for engaging with Pakistan, though I may disagree with all of them. But, the western reason for engagement that India must reduce the fear & insecurity of Pakistan and that would automatically normalize (or near-normalize) the situation in the region, is utter rubbish. This manufactured paranoia is a mask worn by Pakistan to hide its deepest desire which is destruction of India.

SSridhar garu,

I too am totally against this Aman ka Tamasha thing! But I do advocate having good relations with Pakistan for the next decade, that is until we have the military hardware to neutralize a joint Sino-Pak military threat.

I am not sure if GoI will succeed, but it is well-worth a try. China would be more willing to attack India if it is sure that Pakistan may open another front against India. There would be many in Pakistan who would favor something like that. The issue is to keep this view in Pakistan off-balance just long enough till China accepts that the window of opportunity it had with India is now definitely closed.

[RamaY]

Mushrraf Paki on NDTV has the gall to state that many in Pakistan hold Dawood Ibrahim in high regard.

"Gall" only from the Indian viewpoint because Indians think Musharraf is from a different country. Musharraf thinks he and Pakistan have followed the May 1946 Cabinet Mission plan of having a separate Muslim electorate in India. So Pakis imagine that they are that separate electorate sitting in a Muslim majority province of unpartitioned India dictating terms and making policies for India. Pakistani terrorism in India is the same as "communal riot" for them.

It all starts falling into place...

Reversing that highlighted portion makes it "communal riots" are Paki (meaning muslim-electorate) terrorism.

The only thing missing in this equation is that it is a one side riot. For a riot to happen both sides should participate in the orgy. At the best it is slaughter of Hindus by muslim-electorate. And GoI and all its strategists are sitting on their *******.

[chetak]

We may have our own arguments for engaging with Pakistan, though I may disagree with all of them. But, the western reason for engagement that India must reduce the fear & insecurity of Pakistan and that would automatically normalize (or near-normalize) the situation in the region, is utter rubbish. This manufactured paranoia is a mask worn by Pakistan to hide its deepest desire which is destruction of India.

SSridhar garu,

I too am totally against this Aman ka Tamasha thing! But I do advocate having good relations with Pakistan for the next decade, that is until we have the military hardware to neutralize a joint Sino-Pak military threat.

I am not sure if GoI will succeed, but it is well-worth a try. China would be more willing to attack India if it is sure that Pakistan may open another front against India. There would be many in Pakistan who would favor something like that. The issue is to keep this view in Pakistan off-balance just long enough till China accepts that the window of opportunity it had with India is now definitely closed.

If it comes to a Indo china dust up, the pakis will surely and definitely open up a front against us, no doubt at all.

The only open question is, if its a Indo pak dust up will china step up to the plate? No one is sure.

Will the chinese instigate the pakis against us? This is very likely and more their style as they will be free of any or most of the consequences.

Easy enough to derail much of our economic benefit if we are attacked anytime soon. It will take us some years to get back on track where as the larger chinese may lose much less comparatively because of their bigger economic momentum and the war may give them a much needed opportunity to do some long pending internal housekeeping.

The pakis will have clear orders to attack economic targets deep inside our border and some "troublesome" dams etc in cashmere.

[shiv]

I need to download an e-copy of the book Pakistan's drift into extremism and I am looking for a freebie download. Can't pay for reading about a toilet can I?

The author makes an interesting point. He says that Jinnah basically wanted a separate Muslim electorate within India and for that reason he never made any firm plans on the shape of his Pakistan. Don't know how far that is true but we do know that "separate electorate" was the May 1946 plan. The Split India plan was the June 1946 plan that Congress refused and Jinnah started his direct action day where his Muslim mobs slaughtered thousands of Sikhs and Hindu in Calcutta leading to riots all over the country.

But Pakistanis have certainly behaved like they think they are inside India. I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims. Have the cake, eat it too and sleep with the bakers wife is what they wanted. We are giving the wife now. We are withdrawing our Penisrithvi and asking Pakis to insert their mijjile.

[RajeshA]

shiv saar,

TSP's influence in India is tenuous. Sure there are many WKKs but that is mostly talk. They have a few groups active in India plus the Dawood Ibrahim, etc. networks, but all that is still limited influence. They conduct their terror attacks and for a few days people start talking about them, but soon they are again forgotten.

They can think of themselves as an electorate within India, but with very little influence! That is frustrating for them!

[ramana]

What is difficult to understand is the reason why the present dispensation is so eager to make Piss with the Bakis. What is it that has to be done today it self and it cannot wait till tomorrow.

There could be not too subtle pressure from Western interlocutors to give more. So they are giving sops early before anything else is demanded openly.


By showing ref to TSP response to this measure, GOI can point to the futility of further gestures.

[ramana]

Shiv, In the now defunct Indian secularism threads I had said that Indian secularism (one sided against the majority) policy along with Art 370 retention is a carrot to TSP that they can have "reverse millat" status ie be part of greater India and be self governing with local shariat for themselves in their communities, if they want for themselves. IOW shariat wont apply to non-Muslims in the millat areas.

Zia's Islamization is to preven this option.

However TSP wants to apply Shariat to all of India!

[chetak]

shiv saar,

TSP's influence in India is tenuous. Sure there are many WKKs but that is mostly talk. They have a few groups active in India plus the Dawood Ibrahim, etc. networks, but all that is still limited influence. They conduct their terror attacks and for a few days people start talking about them, but soon they are again forgotten.

They can think of themselves as an electorate within India, but with very little influence! That is frustrating for them!

The DI gang and affiliates has deeeep connections within the political, judiciary and law enforcement fraternity as has been brought out from time to time.

How do you reckon their influence limited rather than insidious and wide spread?

Every ISI creep has open walk in permission to espouse his ideology on every DDM channel in India.

[Anujan]

While our PM, Commerce Minister & Commerce Secretary are jumping with joy and even speaking of a much more liberal PTA, Pakistan has said it will give MFN only by end of 2012.

Not getting MFN does not bother me at all. India thinks that trade linkages will create a vested interest group in Pakistan against terror attacks on India and for normal ties. Pakis on the other hand are bankrupt and want greenbacks at any cost. They have been making a series of thundering statements like "No economy at the cost of honor" and "Cashmere before trade" and all that nonsense and are now wiling to consider MFN with nary a whimper. That too without any visible pressure from the US or India or whatnot.

That means only one thing. Their economy is truly in pakistan for them to even summon up the courage to make such a move. Let them delay and sit on this for all that I care. Let their economy swirl further into the pakistan.

[Anujan]

The story of the 4 dead MI officers

A very reliable little bird told me that all the "sea, air, land, space paratrooper drop rescue operations" were a bucket of BS. 4 Fellows were goatnapped. Their release negotiations (also euphemistically called "rescue operations") were going nowhere. Fellows tried to escape. They were given their 72.

Hopefully the TFTAs have learned their lesson and dont try to escape from now on, before negotiations are over and prisoners and money have exchanged hands.

I posted about it here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1194095 and here: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1195389

[Anujan]

Apparently Ashphuck met with Ten percenti and wants Husain Haqqani (the good Haqqani)'s head.

[A_Gupta]

The author makes an interesting point. He says that Jinnah basically wanted a separate Muslim electorate within India and for that reason he never made any firm plans on the shape of his Pakistan. Don't know how far that is true but we do know that "separate electorate" was the May 1946 plan. The Split India plan was the June 1946 plan that Congress refused and Jinnah started his direct action day where his Muslim mobs slaughtered thousands of Sikhs and Hindu in Calcutta leading to riots all over the country.

This stuff about a sovereign Pakistan merely being a bargaining position and Jinnah really wanted a separate electorate within India has not one iota of truth in it. There is nowhere after the Lahore Resolution was passed, in Jinnah's public or private speeches and dialogs, any such indication.

To be accurate, the May 1946 plan was "groupings that have the right to secede". This was Jinnah's way of avoiding his moth-eaten Pakistan. In particular, he hoped the Bengal majority would carry away Assam and the Northeast with it (along with Calcutta and East Bengal). And in the west, Jinnah wanted all of Punjab.

Everybody loves to curse the Congress leadership, that they should have accepted the grouping plan and thus kept India united. Bullshit! If they had, then current BRFers would be talking about the battle formations needed to keep on borders of Delhi to hold back the Pakistanis. And of the inexorable elimination of Hindus and Sikhs over a much vaster area than has happened today.

When Jinnah could not get his Pakistan covertly, so to speak, he then decided to try to get it overtly.

As to what he wanted - he was a maximalist. He wanted a corridor across India connecting the two wings. He courted Hindu princes who had Hindu majorities in their states and tried to get them to accede to Pakistan.

Regarding the no-firm-constitutional-or-other-plans for Pakistan, that was simply because anything firm stated about it would tend to split the Muslim community. So there was no constitutional or economic plan. Jinnah tried making extravagant promises to the Sikhs to keep them from insisting on dividing Punjab. But all those were tactical, and not based on any deep conviction or principle. All the ideas of decentralization, autonomy, protection of culture and languages went out of the window Jinnah actually achieved Pakistan. Jinnah himself laid the seeds of Bangladesh by telling them in his first post-independence speech in Dhaka that Bengali would not have an official status in Pakistan, only Urdu would. If his offers to the future minorities of future Pakistan had been based on principle. then he would not have so reneged.

[A_Gupta]

I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims.

Because there is no such connection. You're assuming a special electorate for Muslims means that they would accept a weight proportional to their population percentage. That is so wrong! They would stay in a united India if and only if they were in a dominant position.

This is indicative of Jinnah's thinking:
http://sites.google.com/site/cabinetmis ... in-numbers

You need to understand the example at the end, of the practical consequences of what Jinnah was demanding.

Under paragraph 15(2), if only a majority of the Muslim members, in other words, 78/2+1 = 40 Muslims out of a total Union legislature of 292 voted in favor of Pakistani Army waging jihad in Afghanistan, no one in United India could stop them under the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Everyone who curses Nehru, Gandhi, and the INC for not keeping India united needs to understand this example.

Also read this:
http://sites.google.com/site/cabinetmis ... -1943-1945

[A_Gupta]

I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims.

Pakistani behavior can be described as the increasingly desperate machinations of a people who believe they ought to have a veto over India.

Basically, the former subjects and jihad-fodder have become too uppity.

[RamaY]

Shiv, In the now defunct Indian secularism threads I had said that Indian secularism (one sided against the majority) policy along with Art 370 retention is a carrot to TSP that they can have "reverse millat" status ie be part of greater India and be self governing with local shariat for themselves in their communities, if they want for themselves. IOW shariat wont apply to non-Muslims in the millat areas.

Zia's Islamization is to preven this option.

However TSP wants to apply Shariat to all of India!

It works fine when the muslim areas are clearly demarked and there is no mix in populations. I do not know if this is good or bad. This will be true oil droplets model that Shivji posted many times.

The problem will remain to be the interaction between the Islamic oil droplets with their surroundings, whether they are in the middle or in the periphery of Hindu India. Then what about the portions of Sharia that define the interactions between Muslims and non-Muslims? Imagine a muslim rapes a non-muslim or vice versa. How can we apply Sharia in this scenario?

Another question is what about Christian India, will they be counted as non-muslim indians or christian indians or hindu indians or secular indians? What will be the relationship between christian indians and other Indic indians.

[RamaY]

But Pakistanis have certainly behaved like they think they are inside India. I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims. Have the cake, eat it too and sleep with the bakers wife is what they wanted. We are giving the wife now. We are withdrawing our Penisrithvi and asking Pakis to insert their mijjile.

Excellently put Shivji!

Now kindly see a little farther. How would this accommodation will be taken by IM electorate. Will they want to be part of that separate electorate or be a minority in Indian electorate?

Remember the model we built a couple of year ago on the interaction between various shades of green?

They can think of themselves as an electorate within India, but with very little influence! That is frustrating for them!

I doubt RajeshA garu. The WKK percentage in policy making circles is very high. The aam-janta is not de-secularized yet to stand up to the WKK brigade.

[Rangudu]

Husain Haqqani has sent a resignation letter to Zardari, who is deciding on whether to accept it, per tweets from TSP journos in DC.

[svinayak]

I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims.

Pakistani behavior can be described as the increasingly desperate machinations of a people who believe they ought to have a veto over India.

Basically, the former subjects and jihad-fodder have become too uppity.

THis sense of entitlement is from the Islamic imperalism and moghul period.
THis needs to be wiped out completely.

[ramana]

R read Anujan's post above.

[aditya]

The story of the 4 dead MI officers

A very reliable little bird told me that all the "sea, air, land, space paratrooper drop rescue operations" were a bucket of BS. 4 Fellows were goatnapped. Their release negotiations (also euphemistically called "rescue operations") were going nowhere. Fellows tried to escape. They were given their 72.

Hopefully the TFTAs have learned their lesson and dont try to escape from now on, before negotiations are over and prisoners and money have exchanged hands.

I posted about it here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1194095 and here: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1195389

OK, so basically on the lines of "Raabart, is sidey ko maar do, aur phir is key badan key kone mey ek sui chuba do. Tab pulis samjhe gi ki sui-side ho gayi"...

[Rangudu]

R read Anujan's post above.

Yup, saw it Thanks.

[Rangudu]

BTW, Adm Mullen confirms the existence of the Mansoor Ijaz secret memo

[shiv]

The author makes an interesting point. He says that Jinnah basically wanted a separate Muslim electorate within India and for that reason he never made any firm plans on the shape of his Pakistan. Don't know how far that is true but we do know that "separate electorate" was the May 1946 plan. The Split India plan was the June 1946 plan that Congress refused and Jinnah started his direct action day where his Muslim mobs slaughtered thousands of Sikhs and Hindu in Calcutta leading to riots all over the country.

This stuff about a sovereign Pakistan merely being a bargaining position and Jinnah really wanted a separate electorate within India has not one iota of truth in it. There is nowhere after the Lahore Resolution was passed, in Jinnah's public or private speeches and dialogs, any such indication.

To be accurate, the May 1946 plan was "groupings that have the right to secede". This was Jinnah's way of avoiding his moth-eaten Pakistan. In particular, he hoped the Bengal majority would carry away Assam and the Northeast with it (along with Calcutta and East Bengal). And in the west, Jinnah wanted all of Punjab.

Everybody loves to curse the Congress leadership, that they should have accepted the grouping plan and thus kept India united. Bullshit! If they had, then current BRFers would be talking about the battle formations needed to keep on borders of Delhi to hold back the Pakistanis. And of the inexorable elimination of Hindus and Sikhs over a much vaster area than has happened today.

When Jinnah could not get his Pakistan covertly, so to speak, he then decided to try to get it overtly.

As to what he wanted - he was a maximalist. He wanted a corridor across India connecting the two wings. He courted Hindu princes who had Hindu majorities in their states and tried to get them to accede to Pakistan.

Regarding the no-firm-constitutional-or-other-plans for Pakistan, that was simply because anything firm stated about it would tend to split the Muslim community. So there was no constitutional or economic plan. Jinnah tried making extravagant promises to the Sikhs to keep them from insisting on dividing Punjab. But all those were tactical, and not based on any deep conviction or principle. All the ideas of decentralization, autonomy, protection of culture and languages went out of the window Jinnah actually achieved Pakistan. Jinnah himself laid the seeds of Bangladesh by telling them in his first post-independence speech in Dhaka that Bengali would not have an official status in Pakistan, only Urdu would. If his offers to the future minorities of future Pakistan had been based on principle. then he would not have so reneged.

Thanks for the clarification. Fits in with other stuff I have read.

[shiv]

I never made the connection etwen Pakistani behavior and the earlier desire to stay in a united India with a special electorate for Muslims.

Pakistani behavior can be described as the increasingly desperate machinations of a people who believe they ought to have a veto over India.

Basically, the former subjects and jihad-fodder have become too uppity.

No disagreement, but Pakistani behaviour has consistently been like that if a bunch of Indian expatriates sitting outside India and being critical of what Indians are doing in India claiming special knowledge of India and connections within India. In a sense that boils down to an "electorate" (a group) who are unaffected by other Indians in India, but nevertheless have a disproportionate say in Indian affairs.

If fact if you go back and look at the May 1946 and June 1946 plans as ones that had deep inputs from what Jinnah and the Muslim league had indicated to the British it appears like both plans wanted to insulate Muslims from Hindus. The May 1946 plan was for Muslims to stay insulated within India by a cockeyed "democracy" that gave (some of) them more power than their numbers justified. This was to be a substitute for the privileges of "Mughal rule" where a powerful elite could live in India and favor Muslims and be one-up one everyone else. The June 1946 plan of course was one where Muslims majority areas would be split away entirely from India into Islands of territory - which is exactly what happened.

But notwithstanding Jinnah's personal ambition, I wonder if many of the other powerful elites who supported him still nurtured ideas about India because many of them did what some BRFite aptly described some years ago - they had their "current account" in Pakistan and their "Fixed Deposit" in India where they left behind family and assets in India. Some of these people actually found themselves in a situation where, with family in India. they could actually have a finger in the pie in India and subvert if need be, while speaking out from Pakistan being bitterly critical of what Hindus were doing to Muslims.

Jinnah's may have been a phyrhic victory, but it was nevertheless very damaging to an India emerging from the dark ages. Without going into he nitty gritty of Hindu-Muslim relations I think that Muslim separatism has been negative for India and it is just as well that separatists and criminals sought refuge in Pakistan. That is the place where they must stay and die. As a separate cesspool/backyard toilet

[shiv]

At least 15 dead in South Waziristan drone strike

Is it me or have national birds become more generous with 72s of late. They seem to have opened up the harem doors from a mere 2 or 4 in the past to 7 and 15?

[Anujan]

Apparently the national bird lays an egg. Waits for the telebunnies to collect their comrades and then lays many more eggs on their heads.

[svinayak]

I think that Muslim separatism has been negative for India and it is just as well that separatists and criminals sought refuge in Pakistan. That is the place where they must stay and die. As a separate cesspool/backyard toilet

But this TOILET is too close to India. We may have to create many gutters to ease the flow of T*atti

[shiv]

India thinks that trade linkages will create a vested interest group in Pakistan against terror attacks on India and for normal ties.

Yes, this is the impression I got. For a long time Pakis have given the impression in "one on one" that they have a grouse against their "khakis". Problem is that the grouse was insufficient to believe that terror attacks in India were a bad thing.

I do agree that Pakistan's economy is in Pakistan but in addition it looks like three other factors are in play here

1. The Pakistani military is in deep trouble and unable to take action against extremists inside Punjab/Sindh because they were/are allies, while suffering huge losses and morale issues
2. The Indian armed forces now have an edge that makes India more confident. The edge has been there for a while. Pakistanis have known that and that is why they commenced asymmetric war. But I suspect India was not confident enough about kicking Paki ass. Perhaps it was the "US alliance" factor that was bugging India
3. With a downgrading of Paki military power there are (as we have said on here and as an NSA acknowledged) "multiple centers of power" in Pakistan. That is one further step towards total failure and possible break up. India seems to be attempting trade and normalization with only one of these multiple power centers in the hope that it has some effect on the overall scheme f things if and when the shit hits the fan. The fact that it is happening with little sign of Paki army influence is a sign of waning Paki army clout, IMO.

[shiv]

I think that Muslim separatism has been negative for India and it is just as well that separatists and criminals sought refuge in Pakistan. That is the place where they must stay and die. As a separate cesspool/backyard toilet

But this TOILET is too close to India. We may have to create many gutters to ease the flow of T*atti

Acharya, Islam needs to be changed. People (Hindus on BRF) have argued that this is not possible, but let me put this across:

Here is a question and answer session with many old questions answered. Only one needs to be settled

1. Islam is a religion of peace: true/false
2. Islam respects people of other religions: true/false
3. Islam respects women: true/false
4. Muslims do not kill Muslims:true/false
5. Islam is immutable, unchangeable: true/false

[Kakkaji]

But notwithstanding Jinnah's personal ambition, I wonder if many of the other powerful elites who supported him still nurtured ideas about India because many of them did what some BRFite aptly described some years ago - they had their "current account" in Pakistan and their "Fixed Deposit" in India where they left behind family and assets in India. Some of these people actually found themselves in a situation where, with family in India. they could actually have a finger in the pie in India and subvert if need be, while speaking out from Pakistan being bitterly critical of what Hindus were doing to Muslims.

Shiv-ji:

That might be true for the Mohajir elites that went to Pakistan from other parts of India, but the Pakjabis did not have that option as the Punjab was cleaned out - from both sides of the border. The Pathans and the Baloch and the Sindhi Muslims did not have any attachments left in India either.

I think the present generation of Pakis have been brought up to think not as electorate or voters or stakeholders in India, but as the "rightful rulers" of India whose inheritance has been snatched away by dirty scheming Kafirs with help from the British. They do not wish to go back to the Cabinet Mission Plan or whatever other plan of sharing power with the Kaffirs. What they want is to go back to Aurangzeb's rule with Green Flag over the red fort. With the grace of ATM, and with help from gullible Indians, they will realize their dream.

IMHO, there is no possibility of co-opting the Pakis in any kind of shared vision of the sub-continent.

[saip]

News reports are saying five national birds carried out the attack. Is it the first time that many national birds laid their eggs?

[shiv]

But notwithstanding Jinnah's personal ambition, I wonder if many of the other powerful elites who supported him still nurtured ideas about India because many of them did what some BRFite aptly described some years ago - they had their "current account" in Pakistan and their "Fixed Deposit" in India where they left behind family and assets in India. Some of these people actually found themselves in a situation where, with family in India. they could actually have a finger in the pie in India and subvert if need be, while speaking out from Pakistan being bitterly critical of what Hindus were doing to Muslims.

Shiv-ji:

That might be true for the Mohajir elites that went to Pakistan from other parts of India, but the Pakjabis did not have that option as the Punjab was cleaned out - from both sides of the border. The Pathans and the Baloch and the Sindhi Muslims did not have any attachments left in India either.

I think the present generation of Pakis have been brought up to think not as electorate or voters or stakeholders in India, but as the "rightful rulers" of India whose inheritance has been snatched away by dirty scheming Kafirs with help from the British. They do not wish to go back to the Cabinet Mission Plan or whatever other plan of sharing power with the Kaffirs. What they want is to go back to Aurangzeb's rule with Green Flag over the red fort. With the grace of ATM, and with help from gullible Indians, they will realize their dream.

IMHO, there is no possibility of co-opting the Pakis in any kind of shared vision of the sub-continent.

In fact the people who had a finger in both pies, the mohajirs, ended up being disproportionately powerful in Pakistan. The current generation have been taught that
1. They are the true rulers of India
2. Hindus are bad.

But I would add several caveats to these statements

We have no idea of the huge numbers of totally poor, totally illiterate people in Pakistan, whose views of the world are hidden by Pakistan's propaganda apparatus. With 40% Pakis under 20 years and 25% under 14 years - we have about 45 million Pakis who have had very little "active education" and we don't know how far any indoctrination may have gone. The other thing is that the "poor" of Pakistan are likely to be like the poor anywhere else. They may blame poverty on someone or something, but their main focus is the next meal.

These people may be useless as allies of India, but they are fairly useless as allies of the Paki army and establishment as well. They are just a miserable mass. So while India cannot utilise them, they are a burden to Pakistan and will become a burden to someone else if and when Pakistan splits.

India is trying to cut deals with a small bunch of pakis - maybe a few businessmen and some intellectuals/atristes. India has very little effect on the army and on the middle class jihadi mass of Pakistan who are rich enough to support jihad. I estimate the Paki middle class as about 12-15% - which is about 25 million. A large number considering that the wealthy 1% of Pakistan control 80% of its economy. These people are educated to hate India and must not get any relief or reprieve.

The remaining 110 million people of Pakistan who are older than 14 are a variable mix of urban and rural, poor and less poor, and partly literate, partly illiterate. It can be assumed that many of these people have received some indoctrination to hate India, but they also have enough grievances to see problems in Pakistan.

[parsuram]

The paki is the world's greatest con artist, and excells at always wanting something for nothing. For 64 years, its people have done nothing of any value. In that time, Indians have sacrificed 2-3 generations of their people to educate and lift up their children and grand children. Now, when India looks good compared to the toilet scum that is the paki, those people are talking like they have some kind of entitlement in India. It is so absurd, that their hutzpah cannot not maintain an erect posture. But the paki is very rapidly running out of options out in the big wide world where it has been running numerous cons for all its existance. So now it turns to India, wanting to run a con on the old country. The paki thinks thhat Indians have been too busy to bettering themselves to remember the - to them- the minor bit of bloodshed and misbehavior. And the sanaki MMS, now fogged over about those painful details, is about the only one thay can snow with their talk. But for all the others who may not remember details, I can offer these: 1947- The lazy, something for nothing paki assembles on lands stolen from Hindus and Sikhs, who had worked hard to convert the desert into India's bread basket. In addition, they took as many of Hindu and Sikh Assets as they can get their hands on. All told, the the paki mussalmans got away with a little over $35 bil. in current dollars. This allowed them to live high on the hog, spending their time producing babies and sampling all variety of harami enjoyments. Having started out with a clean slate, they also rand up a very impressive bar bill - this business of signing and enjoying was very addictive, and they got addicted very early in infancy. But then the good times threatened to come to an end in about 10 years. So they went after the stupidly gullable Amrikhans, who were infected with a tunnel vision of communisticphobia. 1958- The amerikhans are roped in, goodies worth a lot more than in 47 were now promissed and being delivered. Life was pleasing again, and the bar book was again available to the faithfool. 1965-It was time to get more from the Indians, so the paki did a dumb thing, making a grab for Kashmir. Dum, dum, dum. Now the Amrikhans got a whiff of the pakis reality sewar, and decided they best get out of town. Which they did, leaving the paki and his bar bill very unpaid. But then, the pakis brilliant buffoon, the butthoo, went to their rescue, fleecing the ummha from kaddafi to the saud, bringing in billions by just making those ummha people feel guilty. All was well again, there was a major project of a green bumb in the works, and the ummha was paying still, and all those nationalizations helped with the bar bill, while the chinese were the new noodle daddies. Things were good, and then suddenly, the greedy fauj, came and cooked the goose with golden eggs, and the world got mad, and no more the book at the bar to sign for the bill. 1979-Yet, Halla was merciful, sending the soviet into afghanistan, and the Amrikhans back among the paki faithfools. Once more, the paki was living free for nothing, as it had done for over 30 years, having got rid of the darkies of Dhakka on the way. Life was good again, even if for only another 10 years. Well, every one here knows the rest of the story, the paki, every 10 years or so, runs up a huge bar bill, and gets bailed out, but we all know that its luck has hit the skids lately, so it is forced to come to its hardworking better off neighbor, who, we all hope, has enough sense to kick it the hell away from their front door. qed

[menon s]

^^^^^ Well parasuramji, nobody has any love lost has far as pakistan is concerned, but nobody wants a toxic corpse in the neighborhood, with its Islamist ideology and nuclear weapons. The challenge is how do we address this. The only way, is wait or instigate the Pashtuns to attack Pakistani Punjab. It has happened in the past and can happen once again. Remember it was the muslims in west Punjab who asked Maharaja Ranjith Singh to attack Peshawar, and contain them, because of their attacks on Punjabi farmlands and livestock. What will precipitate the Pashtuns to attack Punjab, in todays day and time? Think about it.

[shiv]

^^^^^ Well parasuramji, nobody has any love lost has far as pakistan is concerned, but nobody wants a toxic corpse in the neighborhood, with its Islamist ideology and nuclear weapons. <snip> Think about it.

Menonji - I have thought about this quite a bit and my original question in this regard remains unanswered to this day.

The words "toxic corpse" is a new word, courtesy Ajai Shukla, for an old concept- that is "collapsed Pakistan" or "failed Pakistan"

Everyone fears the concept but no one has stated what is fearful about it.

What will this toxic corpse do?

To be fair, two sources have actually spelt out the significant effects that this toxic corpse could have

1. B Raman (now people, please don't go all anti at mention of his name. I am surprised how MMS's Aman ki Asha is hated but Karnad's Aman ki Asha makes people swoon from the romance of it) B Raman pointed out that the chances of spread of Wahhabi radicalism ino India's youth become greater when we have a failed Pakistan next to us.

But my argument is as follows. If you don't like Wahhabism why do you worry about it only when it is about to come and bite of your balls. tell the friggin Saudis what shits they are. Throw your goddam weight around.

2. The spread of nuclear weapons into the hands of radical (various people)

Gimme a break folks. Is everyone a Rip van Winkle? india has faced direct nuclear threats from the 1980s. Nukes are already in the hands of India hating radicals. The only "radicals" who did not have nukes are anti-American radicals. You have to have half or more of your loyalty in America if you believe this story.