Indian Army : News and Discussion

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Apr 2012 12:07

Defence minister’s goodness doesn’t solve problems

http://www.omantribune.com/index.php?pa ... Columnists

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Apr 2012 12:08

DNA exclusive: Gen hit it right on the bonnet when he said Tatra trucks unfit

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... it_1670340

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 02 Apr 2012 14:16

I have noticed that DNA seems to have a wide network of contacts, giving it access to documents. Almost every article of theirs is filled with mentions of DNA possessing or having access to documents in a company, ministry, etc. Is it just that they MENTION it and other news articles don't? Or are do they actually have a better network?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Apr 2012 14:55

alexis wrote:
rohitvats wrote:In this debate about TATRA trucks, let us look at some basic numbers:

1. The CAG report says that in 2009 BEML was selling one of the TATRA truck types to the IA at ~INR 85L. The report also says it was making a profit of ~30% in each vehicle - which is around INR 25.5L. Which means that the cost to BEML was ~INR 60L. <SNIP>
Small nitpick -
1)taxes and duties on imports need to be factored in.
2) Shipping costs also need to be factored

There is no doubt TATRA is overpriced (by 40-70 lakh depending on various report). Only how much of this BEML's take and how mark-up goes to Vectra needs to be figured out. If anybody can point out the costs for item 1) and 2), we can make some estimates.

The profit of BEML is given in the CAG Report - it is 25L per vehicle. The cost to BEML is 60L - which would include the above two items mentioned by you. As it is, these are pass on costs and would be over and above the profit margin of seller.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Apr 2012 15:01

atreya wrote:I have noticed that DNA seems to have a wide network of contacts, giving it access to documents. Almost every article of theirs is filled with mentions of DNA possessing or having access to documents in a company, ministry, etc. Is it just that they MENTION it and other news articles don't? Or are do they actually have a better network?

Is it not an offence to possess secret documents?? (Howsoever obtained but the possessor not being any of the intended recipient(s))

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 02 Apr 2012 15:15

Rohitbhai,

It just occured to me that mil eqpt may be duty exempt imports.
if not,then the effective tax,duty,countervailing duty etc will be about 25% of invoice value.this is what we pay when we want to import plant equipment.

maybe this is the real tragedy-- make India an importer so that 25% of shipment value goes to Ministry of Finance

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2012 15:20

[quote="chackojoseph"

chaanakya,

ROFL. The very basics of of law is being changed. Also, the very nature of the VKS disclosure is not for this. I have repeatedly said about it. I think, its time to move to VKS vs TS, which is the issue right now.
.[/quote]
I got it, Basically you dont understand the law given your amusing posts.. Period.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Apr 2012 15:20

^^^I actually did try and explore the duty angle for defense equipment but time did not permit. But whatever be that - BEML makes windfall profit on TATRA as alleged by Army and Sipox makes money by ensuring that it sells outdated equipment which won't sell anywhere. I personally have nothing against TATRA - I have driven the vehicle myself. And it is an outstanding vehicle. One just needs to see the kind of obstacles it can cross. But as the COAS said - IA is being short changed and companies are making money at the expense of IA. This money could be better spent on other items. Just imagine the amount of BPJ which can be bought by saving money on these trucks. And better still, TATA and AL are now making similar trucks - let the money flow back into Indian economy.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2012 15:28

All Govt end use imports are duty exempt provided certificates are issued to that effect.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2012 15:29

CBI might arrest Ravi Rishi as he failed to appear before CBI

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 02 Apr 2012 16:05

atreya wrote:I have noticed that DNA seems to have a wide network of contacts, giving it access to documents. Almost every article of theirs is filled with mentions of DNA possessing or having access to documents in a company, ministry, etc. Is it just that they MENTION it and other news articles don't? Or are do they actually have a better network?

Their Delhi correspondent Saikat Datta is an enterprising young man. He needs to watch out or he might end up getting suicided.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 02 Apr 2012 16:06

Instead of just blaming the army chief, GOI and AKA should look in to the deficiencies and current procurement systems as a whole and remove grey areas and plug all the loop holes and eliminate all shortages and poor equipments etc etc. At the end of the day, even at the cost of Indian nation's image as a whole, the leak should help India to improve. Hence our Army chief has done a good thing for the nation, irrespective of his real intentions.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 02 Apr 2012 17:30

Nitin Gokhale reports Army Chief did not leak letter to PM: Intelligence Bureau sources

Now, shouldn't these guys SP, JD(U) want Army chief VK Singh sacked, BJP says no be booked for libel?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 02 Apr 2012 17:38

chackojoseph wrote:anmol.

please don't twist facts, as its open for everyone to read.

Sorry, but you are twisting words. Not me. And let me explain how :

chackojoseph wrote:it was VKS who said that.

Exactly, that is the point. Your claimed here :

chackojoseph wrote:People say he has been "keeping Quite" about corruption and there by supporting Congress corruption. This I differ.

..that was about AKA, not VKS. So whatever actions VKS did or claimed to have done have nothing to do with AKA. This is very simple.. and you are too wise to not comprehend this. Also, whatever VKS said was about actions he took. When he spoke of "institutional reforms".. that institution was Military which he happens to lead. Also, from AKA's own comment since VKS revelation.. all he did was requested VKS to pursue this matter. AKA don't have anything to show for actions/reforms he took within the institution he leads(MOD).. when the firm at center of this scam comes under same institution.

Again, you are too wise not to understand this.. and such tactics have led people to wonder why you are acting like an apologist.

chackojoseph wrote:Why should the onus of the AKA action should be on me, when VKS himself says that AKA did it.

Because you yourself claimed that you don't think that AKA kept "quite" about Corruption, the fact you(who implied that AKA did take action) yourself are asking why "onus of the AKA action should be on me".. this itself makes it clear that there is little AKA have done. Also where/when exactly did VKS claim that AKA did anything and what exactly did he do ?

chackojoseph wrote:Let Sumair speak for himself, when I have replied to him. Speak for yourself.

Here again you are twisting words, I never spoke on behalf of Sumair.. I only agreed with and made observation about his post. Especially after you claimed that I was attacking you or your religion etc.(when neither my post nor Sumair's post had anything to do with religion)...

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 02 Apr 2012 17:43

nelson wrote:DNA exclusive: Gen hit it right on the bonnet when he said Tatra trucks unfit

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... it_1670340

Another article confirming what the good Chief said :

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120402/j ... 3mZGWFc95s

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Apr 2012 17:54

rohitvats wrote:^^^I actually did try and explore the duty angle for defense equipment but time did not permit. But whatever be that - BEML makes windfall profit on TATRA as alleged by Army and Sipox makes money by ensuring that it sells outdated equipment which won't sell anywhere. I personally have nothing against TATRA - I have driven the vehicle myself. And it is an outstanding vehicle. One just needs to see the kind of obstacles it can cross. But as the COAS said - IA is being short changed and companies are making money at the expense of IA. This money could be better spent on other items. Just imagine the amount of BPJ which can be bought by saving money on these trucks. And better still, TATA and AL are now making similar trucks - let the money flow back into Indian economy.

On purely techncial point of view we hear that TATRA has great cross country/rough terrain ability due to (i) independant swing arm axles = (?) independant suspension?? and (ii) all parts below the chassis are in tubular structure which reduces/prevents external damage etc etc

So Is TATA able to match that with its own 8x8 and 12x12?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Apr 2012 17:55

pranav

Saikat is quite cunning and I am sure he knows how to handle.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Apr 2012 18:11

chackojoseph wrote:Yes right. I practically experienced FIR few months back. Here is how it goes.

A person has to file FIR with police for getting them act on a case
The police does its inquiry, prepares a charge sheet and then depending upon it case may forward it to a magistrate.
The person who filed FIR (and if the counter FIR is filed), then he (and the counter FIR registrant) hire a lawyer and the lawyer amends or expands FIR. I am sure you must have read in news paper that the Police registered FIR in some other section and then they were forced to change it by the complainants lawyer.
The concerned parties then slug it out in the court.

So a FIR is not final, the charge sheet is.

Same in 2G. A Raja was kept in jail based on FIR, then a charge sheet was made and then released. Same with kalamadi etc.

I got to know about it from a EC official who was explaining the it to me during an interaction Make Election bribery a cognizable offence under the IPC : EC . although the article is for asking for non-cognisable to cognisable, if you notice, a cognisable offense helps them to reach magistrate faster and take action faster. However, making it a cognisable offense does not establish people guilty.

In this case too:

1) CBI filed an FIR with cognisable tag.
2) Then did the questioning / inquiry. But, have not filed chargesheet and taken him to the magistrate. They might or might not arrest him, but have made sure that he does not get out. nest step is charge sheet, which also does not establish guilt. Only the outcome of the case, the evidence etc will establish the out come and the acquittal/punishment will be handed over. If a party is not happy, then goes to Hc or SC depending.

With some expert knowledge I can tell you:-

With CBI it is :-

Prelimenary Inquiry -> FIR -> Arrest if any (all three can be simultaneous also, in some rare cases arrest can be even before FIR) followed by Chargesheet in Trial Court and then Trial

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2012 18:19

So now IB gives clean chit to VKS in letter leak. Only two other probables left. MOD and PMO??? Do we have mole(s)??

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Apr 2012 18:36

vic wrote: <SNIP>On purely techncial point of view we hear that TATRA has great cross country/rough terrain ability due to (i) independant swing arm axles = (?) independant suspension?? and (ii) all parts below the chassis are in tubular structure which reduces/prevents external damage etc etc

So Is TATA able to match that with its own 8x8 and 12x12?

Vic, I'm not qualified technically to comment on that. But If you check the website here (http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors. ... tegoryId=2), they do have a range of 6x6 and 8x8 vehicles. And then you have the URAL India (http://www.uralindia.co.in/defence.php) offering trucks at 50% the price of TATRA.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 02 Apr 2012 19:28

Roperia wrote:Nitin Gokhale reports Army Chief did not leak letter to PM: Intelligence Bureau sources

Now, shouldn't these guys SP, JD(U) want Army chief VK Singh sacked, BJP says no be booked for libel?

Nope : they deserve much harsher punishment. How about a long stint in Port Blair jail ?

However, this may all be wishful thinking. As a nation and society, we are so deep in poop that true justice is very rarely served.

I had written last month in response to a scurrilous piece by that wretched ex-IFS babu K C Singh, that this entire episode has a lot of parallels with the Dreyfus case in France at the turn of the last century. When the brave and valiant Captain Dreyfus was finally exonerated (largely because of a spirited campaign by the author Emil Zola and other intellectuals), the real culprit, Count Esterhazy, was unmasked. Even Republican France could not send Esterhazy to the notorious Devil's Island where Dreyful had served his sentence.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 02 Apr 2012 20:05

Jaybhatt wrote: I had written last month in response to a scurrilous piece by that wretched ex-IFS babu K C Singh, that this entire episode has a lot of parallels with the Dreyfus case in France at the turn of the last century. When the brave and valiant Captain Dreyfus was finally exonerated (largely because of a spirited campaign by the author Emil Zola and other intellectuals), the real culprit, Count Esterhazy, was unmasked. Even Republican France could not send Esterhazy to the notorious Devil's Island where Dreyful had served his sentence.

OT, but the Dreyfuss case was a psy-op. Will post about it later, maybe.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 20:32

Might as well ASAP to quell the wrong analogy.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 02 Apr 2012 21:02

ramana wrote:Might as well ASAP to quell the wrong analogy.

The Dreyfus Affair

Sorry, my analogy is not at all wrong. A little bit of research will show its relevance and similarity to the current scenario in India.

I don't know what colleague Pranav means when he says the Dreyfus affair was a "psy - op". I await his post eagerly.

The parallel stares us in the eye : the Dreyfus case - an innocent officer being framed on false charges (at the instigation of an enemy state).

Here,the Chief of our Army, no less, was sought to be framed, albeit by internal elements, and an orchestrated campaign whipped up by the Mulayam Singhs, Brijesh Mishras etc,. of the world to get the COAS to step down or worse.

One doesn't have to be a quantum-physicist to see the common factors.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Apr 2012 21:56

MoD directs Army to streamline its acquisition process

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Apr 2012 22:06

chackojoseph wrote:MoD directs Army to streamline its acquisition process

This is MOD nonsense. There is DPC, DPM and DPP already notified by Govt of India. This is just to shift the issue and obfuscate the facts to save asses in MOD including that of the Taint , which are on fire.

First find who is the mole and give exemplary punishment.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Apr 2012 23:15

Tidbits on TATRA. Admins may move these to appropriate thread where deemed fit.

Where is TATRA SIPOX?

Inside story TATRA-BEML

BEML lies

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Apr 2012 23:41

Maj Gen retd Mrinal Suman relates the trials and tribulations Army has to face, under the MoD's DPSU screwdriver technology regime.

The hollow army

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Apr 2012 23:54

AKA and VKS are on same page on corruption issue (I am guessing some clean up is in the offing). Media going to town with the stories as usual. Evidence they have is actually based on the officers who were present in the september 2010 meeting when the bribe offer was made and the same officers escorted the chap out of the room. there are no tapes.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 02 Apr 2012 23:55

Some details on trials, held by 17 Mountain Division in North Sikkim in 2008, of URAL trucks. The same were purportedly conducted after TATRA failed in High Altitude conditions.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

People can enjoin another battle on the mandate of VKS to order/conduct trials as Army Commander, Eastern Command.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Apr 2012 00:40

shyamd wrote:AKA and VKS are on same page on corruption issue (I am guessing some clean up is in the offing). Media going to town with the stories as usual. Evidence they have is actually based on the officers who were present in the september 2010 meeting when the bribe offer was made and the same officers escorted the chap out of the room. there are no tapes.

You mean this offer was made in presence of other officers? I find it hard to believe yet it is significant as there would be witnesses to back up VKS claim.I have some doubt abt taping as it is not a general practice and require elaborate setup. At least COAS office , such arrangement may not be made to keep secrecy .Taping without permission would be illegal,treasonous just as in case of budding office of AKA. I am sure VKS would not have made such claims without evidence to backup.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 00:44

Will the real leaker be revealed or is he already dead? The IB has cleared the Chief but hasnt found who leaked the original?

What does Lalu and the other guy in JD have to say? What about BM or is he too worked up to apologize?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Apr 2012 06:39

Interview: Lieutenant General (retd) JFR Jacob

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Apr 2012 07:41

Jaybhatt wrote: The parallel stares us in the eye : the Dreyfus case - an innocent officer being framed on false charges (at the instigation of an enemy state).

Dreyfuss was innocent all right but the affair was apparently orchestrated by somebody other than his overt persecutors. See http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1264068

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Apr 2012 07:56

Our former FM on the issue.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 273997.ece

Ceasefire after the crossfire

K. Natwar Singh

(With a cartoon of the PM fiddling,like Nero, while the building burns)

The Prime Minister should have stepped in during the entirely avoidable high-level bickering between the military and the government.

Some days ago I asked a friend to give me his assessment of Manmohan Singh's government. He summed it up in less than 20 words. “The UPA-II is in the ICU. The pharmacy is locked and the doctor has run away.”

The spat between the Defence Minister and the Army Chief was being played out in the media while the Heads of State of Brazil, China, Russia and South Africa were in Delhi. The BRICS summit was all but drowned in the ocean of words on TV and in the print media. They must all have returned with misgivings about the lack of governance and an absence of cohesion at the highest levels in India. The 100 foreign missions in Delhi would be working overtime to report to their governments the unseemly washing of dirty linen in public. The washermen are distinguished and powerful individuals. The Army Chief carries his China shop with him. The Defence Minister uses one word where two are necessary. The Prime Minister, it seems, believes that no action is also action. He has been the captain of the UPA for eight years. It is his duty to enforce discipline.

Away from public gaze

Ever since he became Army Chief, the General has shown no verbal restraint. This is unprecedented. On the very first occasion the Prime Minister should have sent for him and cautioned him not to cross the Lakshman Rekha. I have little doubt that the straight talking general would have fallen in line. Institutions are run by human beings. It is equally true that these can also be destroyed by these very individuals. This is the first time since Independence that such an unfortunate situation has been created.

Our Armed Forces are second to none in valour. They serve, they obey, they give their lives to protect the security and territorial integrity of Bharat Mata. It gives one no pleasure to say that they are being ill-served by their masters. Grave matters are being debated and discussed on TV screens. This should never have been allowed to happen.

Our system has instrumentalities where such issues can be discussed in camera, away from public gaze. The Cabinet Committee on Security is presided over by the head of government. The other members are the Ministers of Defence, Finance, Home and External Affairs. From personal experience I know that the security committee meets frequently. When necessary, the Army, the Air Force and the Navy Chiefs are asked to attend. They have their say. They receive their instructions and carry them out. These discussions deal with the most sensitive security concerns. The committee has more pressing topics to deliberate on than the age of a particular individual.

The General's age problem should have been sorted out at the departmental level and promptly. Twice born the Army Chief may be but he should not resort to sustained logorrhoea. What a terrible example to set. Over a million officers and soldiers look up to their chief. At this time they must be asking themselves: “Is this really happening. Do we deserve this?” His age is not a national issue. The security of India is. The age farce was taken to the Supreme Court. Another example of gross disregard for the well established norms and tradition. He was emboldened because he was not restrained. At this stage the Prime Minister should have put his foot down. The chain of command is clear. The Defence Minister decides, the chief obeys. It's that clear cut. There are no grey areas. The chief should have gone to a military court of inquiry instead of the CBI.

Much has been said and written about vehicles — the Tatra from the Czech Republic. These are exiguous details. What is not trivial is the conduct of the chief after he was allegedly offered a bribe. The figure is of no consequence. It could be one crore or 14. A bribe is a bribe. The Defence Minister should not have fumbled but acted and taken drastic action against the culprit.

The Chief of Army cannot be faulted for bringing to the notice of the Prime Minister the state of our army and air force. These are ill-equipped and probably not battle worthy. His top secret letter became public property. Who leaked it and why? This is not a snakes and ladders game. We are talking about the security of India. Not a children's game. Another worrying aspect of this episode is that of serving officers giving chits of good conduct to the chief. It reminds me of junior ministers saying in public that the Prime Minister is doing a good job. If the “Air Defence” is 97 per cent non-functional, when did the chief come to know of it? Did he bring this shortfall to the notice of the Defence Minister? If so, what was his response? If not, then why not? The country is entitled to know.

On leading and inspiring

Our Defence Minister, Saint Antony, is a good and honest man. He is, alas, in the wrong job. The Defence Minister should lead, guide, encourage and inspire. Being the benign and decent man he is, he will agree that he does not do so. His performance as Defence Minister is causing serious concern.

The Supreme Court showed the mirror to the General. That is when he should have put in his papers. That would have been honourable. He keeps repeating that his honour and integrity are at stake. As far as one can gather, not one person has questioned his integrity or his honour. His valour is praiseworthy. What is in question is his judgment. Why did he get “too startled” when the bribe was offered? Brave men and brave generals are expected not to lose their cool at any time.

This entirely avoidable high-level bickering must inevitably be discussed in every regimental mess. This is not a happy situation.

How is this unholy mess to be cleaned up? Not via slow motion. Neither side has come out with glory. This directionless drift must stop. Enough damage has been inflicted on the morale of the defence forces.

Our Pakistani friends must be running to their cantonments in glee. Even our friends around the world must be worrying at this sorry state of affairs.

During the Korean war, 1950-1953, President Harry S. Truman dismissed the five-star General Douglas MacArthur for disregarding his instructions to not cross the Yalu river. MacArthur was perhaps the greatest American general of the 20th century. Truman did not let him flout his authority and get away with his high-handedness

The Prime Minister has three options. Immediate damage control. Ask the Chief of the Army Staff not to go to the media. And request the Defence Minister to be more alert and assertive.

(The author was External Affairs Minister from 2004 to 2005.)

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 03 Apr 2012 07:57

Putting the video of the interview JS interview on NDTV, which is much better than the transcript.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/your-c ... ngh/228067

The transcript has a few problems, a whole segment of Col Thapar and JS exchange is not there.

Also, typos like 'saw down' for sword arm, 'liberance' for labyrinth in the transcript.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 08:01

Notwar Singh is writing!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 08:02

The age issue is a pernicious attempt to subvert the Indian Army officer cadre to alter the succession to the top post.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 03 Apr 2012 08:07

Philip sir,

Is Natwar Singh the same person in my mind, who was involved in the UN Iraq Oil for food program.
The fruits of work were quite poisonous for him personally.

At least I understood the inner workings of UN better because of him, if it is the same person.

Thanks

---
edited his title possibly 'royal'.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Apr 2012 08:08

Sumair wrote:Mr. ChakoJoseph the defense minster Mr. Anthony may be an honest man and that pretty much is the consensus, but that is not the issue. It is the dereliction of duties to the nation as the defense minister, to stop the loot and punish the guilty once he became aware.

What is that he has not done for it?

vic wrote: With some expert knowledge I can tell you:-

With CBI it is :-

Prelimenary Inquiry -> FIR -> Arrest if any (all three can be simultaneous also, in some rare cases arrest can be even before FIR) followed by Chargesheet in Trial Court and then Trial

How is it different from the procedure mentioned by me? There is a small nitpick though. You can have a preventive custody during preliminary incase it is felt that they might tamper or is of national interest etc. Like kasab, A Raja etc

anmol,

Be my guest. Like you you use strong words for me like 'apologist for congress,' I really pity your compression capability in this case. Thanks for the debate, I think this is end of it between you and me in this case.

chaanakya wrote:Actually, there is no need for FIR as is being made out by many stalwarts on TV and elsewhere. If VKS reported the matter, what was needed was a discrete preliminary inquiry into whole affair and findout the criminality and culpability of actors involved. A direction to CBI to do preliminary investigation( done umpteen times ) before case reaches FIR stage. CBI itself can register FIR based on its investigation and prosecute the case.

So while, VKS did right, it is patently wrong to suggest that he should have filed FIR with one SHO of Police Station. RM should have ordered CBI to do preliminary investigation instead of clutching his head. CBI would have collected all necessary paperworks.
This still stands.

There times when a FIR may not be necessary. For example, if you remember the Anna Hazare case on Flag insulting where Delhi HC ruled that "“…if the entire evidence is within the reach of the complainant and no custodial interrogation or discovery of any fact is required then registration of FIR is not required to be ordered.”

This simply proves my point, what I said about FIR. it is an interim document. Some people can make note.

Now frame your charge correctly. I want to know from you "What is the CBI inquiry for." Frame your reply carefully and comprehensively. Kindly see that it should not change later.