Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^ Regarding Ganesha/Diwali and pollution etc... some quick thoughts:

1. When a few hundred or thousand families practiced these festivals and followed very simple sustainable ways to celebrate the festival - clay idols, small sparkle sticks, etc. there were no scaling issues.

2. When population grew, but the festival practices could not be fulfilled by traditional methods, the only system that provided solution was 'mass production,' automated manufactured idols, etc. Further, the fireworks got more and more elaborate.

3. Now that the scaling problem has been identified, several moves towards eco-friendly idols etc. have started, esp in Bangalore, but these too are western ideas and the solutions are expensive, no harm in borrowing them, but clearly no one wants to make a declaration that only hand made clay idols, either in India, with Indian clay, and with bio-degradable paints etc. are per Dharma etc. Or even better find new solutions...
From today's newspaper - similar ads in Kannada papers as well
Image
A_Gupta
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

One speaks or writes not for the sake of speaking or writing, but for communicating in a conversation or with an audience. One chooses what one judges to be the most effective means of doing so. As long as the content is true, does not insult the intelligence, and is not gratuitously unkind, this is dharma. The specific language used is less relevant.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Rudradev »

^^^
Agreed.
member_23692
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

shiv wrote:
rsangram wrote: But we must be careful in how we state it, so that it does not sound like, if Indian Indians dont see something as a problem, then there is, in fact NOT a problem. That would then be in essence saying that whatever the Indian Indians do, is by definition correct.
This is true anywhere in the world.

If 100% of a population have no problem with something, then for them it is not a problem.

If one person has a problem, then it is his problem. The 99.9999% who do not see the problem like this one person does need to know why this guy has a problem.

Do you know exactly what your problem might be in this situation? I am not saying you are wrong and "they" are right. You are likely right and "they" are all wrong. But what makes you right?

I am dead serious about this question - more serious than you might think.

Exactly why is garbage a problem? I have asked this before. If there is garbage outside everyone's house in the street, and people just ignore it and feel or see no ill effects, why do you see it as a problem? Remember that I am questioning you and you need to know exactly why garbage is a problem. General answers like "Garbage causes and spreads disease" are not good enough? What disease? Your wealthy neighbours are also healthy and have access to all the medical care they want. So what disease are you talking about? This is what needs to be conveyed to the community of garbage sceptics. How to convey it is the next step.

For example, for years in Bangalore people complained that it was garbage that caused mosquito breeding. In fact mosquitoes do not breed in garbage. They breed in pools of stagnant water that collect in coconut shells and old tyres and open pots or bottles in people's homes. (I have seen mosquitoes breeding in a fishbowl in a lawyer's office) Garbage is a problem for some other reason - not because mosquitoes breed in garbage. Once the government figured this out they attacked the mosquito problem using specific public educational measures that have actually worked.
1. Yes, if 100% of the people don't consider something a problem, then it is not a problem for them. If 99.9% don't think it is a problem, then it is no a problem for them. That is the reason some societies do better than others. This is a philosophical issue. There are philosophers who say that everything is an illusion. Nothing is reality. Therefore, if most people just don't think something is a problem, the problem goes away. There are others who think there is such a thing as objective reality. This objective reality exists, regardless of what people think or whether people exist at all. The "illusionists" had a field day for a long time, during the dark ages, until Descartes came around with his "I think therefore I am", and proved the existence of self, which gave a great Philip to metaphysics. So, the closer a people think to objective reality (which I believe does exist), the better they will do as a society. There are any number of cases in human history, when entire communities and races have disappeared, largely because they failed to perceive reality as it existed and chose to live in their own little world. Hell, there are any number of cases in human history where races and communities and people have disappeared, just because they took a wrong turn, on the say so of their quack priest, turning towards the Congo instead of towards Ethiopia, for instance.

2. And it is not as if, people around here don't realize that garbage is bad. That is not it at all. If it were just a question of educating people on the merits and de-merits of garbage, the problem would be easy to solve. The problem is much more complex than you think. It is the problem, not of a sleeping community, but a community that is already wide awake. There is an insidious system in place where the strong prey on the weak. In other words, it is in someone's interest that trash collection contracts are given to certain companies only. These companies use the same influence to not do their jobs, that they used to get the contracts in the first place. This causes garbage to accumulate. The people are well aware that this is a problem, but not very many are willing to step up and complain or object or even speak loudly about it. Why ? They are afraid. Of what ? The mafia that is garbage mafia (collection company) and the person/s who hand down the contracts (politicians in power). Why are normal people, almost all of them afraid or make the calculation that they not speak up on this issue ? Because a normal guy needs his neighborhood politician to bestow favors on him - to get the police to respond to him when necessary, to get the water connection in his house fixed when it breaks, to even get illegal water connections if necessary, to look the other way if his boundary wall is encroaching the municipal land outside his house, any number of reasons. Why ? Because a lot of these things are illegal which he himself indulges in and the other services that he requires which are legitimate are not done in a routine manner, but done as a an ad-hoc favor bestowed upon him, from the same guy who is profiting from giving out the bad garbage contract. So, most people will at least need legitimate services to live, if not do something illegal, and those are favors that are bestowed upon the normal people by the political leaders in our "esteemed democracy, which China doesn't have", in an ad-hoc manner, instead of a routine systemic manner. So, he makes a calculation that he does not want to speak out on the garbage issue, as, as you correctly said, garbage does not directly cause too many diseases by itself, unless it is toxic or something, which in most cases it may not be. And in the short term, one cannot blame the poor sucker for making this calculation, because after all, the sucker has to live. He needs water, police and a little bit of a leeway in encroaching on the municipal land with his boundary wall, doesn't he? So, then the garbage accumulates. This creates a feeling among general populace that it is ok, to add to the garbage pile three houses away from their house, and a generally permissive attitude starts developing even among the enlightened people, because subconsciously they are all thinking, if there is already 10,000 tonnes of garbage sitting in piles in my neighborhood, what is my additional 10 kilos going to hurt ? Not even a drop in the bucket, and who will notice? The shame factor goes away, completely. And on top of that, if I have to take the trouble of carrying my garbage half a mile to a dumpster, while all my friends and neighbors are merrily and brazenly throwing it across the street from them, I am not only exerting myself unnecessarily, I am also looking like a fool. And no matter what, I don't care if people think anything else of me, I cannot, I repeat cannot be perceived as a fool by my neighbors. You get the idea.....I thought you would already knew all these things, that is why I only typed all this after exchanging four or five posts with you, after which I finally caught on to the fact that you were thinking that it is merely a question of education or someone representing their case correctly.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

rsangarm: Devolution of power with responsibility and accountability is still an unresolved issue in India and the REASON why governance at local level fails. This is not something which is a byproduct of peoples attitudes. It is just that the issue is less pronounced in more educated and well off populaces. Volumes and Volumes have been written on the matter. Recommend the works at this site for more information, if interested.

http://cprindia.org/category/focus-areas/urbanisation/
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote:almost all of them afraid or make the calculation that they not speak up on this issue ? Because a normal guy needs his neighborhood politician to bestow favors on him - to get the police to respond to him when necessary, to get the water connection in his house fixed when it breaks, to even get illegal water connections if necessary, to look the other way if his boundary wall is encroaching the municipal land outside his house, any number of reasons.
Have you met, or seen the neighbourhood politician? Are you referring to a corporator, an MLA or an MP? Each has different power and not all can make a difference to you even if he claims he can. Very often the corruption is at low levels with people saying "It's not us - it's the ones above". The one's above are corrupt, but their money may be coming from elsewhere - not peanuts like a local garbage contract. These are serious questions again because the problems you state are hardly new or unknown and all exist or have existed to some extent where I live.

Are you aware of the power and jurisdiction of the local officials and politicians? I am sure there are unspoken threats, but have you been threatened for asking? Have you, for example spoken to a garbage worker and asked if you can talk to his supervisor? The bottom rung have the least power and least ability to be corrupt.

I can see your frustration but there is no easy way out. There must be some people other who feel like you do. Have you spoken to them and organized a local residents body? Fighting the system is not easy. You have to work within the system and see if there is anyone who is clean and helpful. It should be possible to find someone. In our local areas we were told by senior police officials that the lower downs were corrupt that that if we had serious issues we would be better off approaching them directly.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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ShauryaT wrote:rsangarm: Devolution of power with responsibility and accountability is still an unresolved issue. This is not something which is a byproduct of peoples attitudes. It is just that the issue is less pronounced in more educated and well off populaces.
I respectfully disagree with the first thing. It is all about people's attitudes and mindset of instant gratification and not having the courage to stand up to anything, which has resulted in a mafia system.

When you say that the issue is less pronounced in more educated and well off populace, Can you clarify what you mean. Are you meaning that the habitats of the more educated and well off populace do not have a garbage problem or are you meaning that the more educated and well off populace have more courage and leeway to stand up to the mafia ?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv wrote: Have you met, or seen the neighbourhood politician? Are you referring to a corporator, an MLA or an MP? Each has different power and not all can make a difference to you even if he claims he can. Very often the corruption is at low levels with people saying "It's not us - it's the ones above". The one's above are corrupt, but their money may be coming from elsewhere - not peanuts like a local garbage contract. These are serious questions again because the problems you state are hardly new or unknown and all exist or have existed to some extent where I live..
Yes, I have met them all. The corporator, the MLA, the MP, the Minister, the Health Officer, The Municipal Commissioner, The Collector, the Revenue Commissioner.

I don't know about where you are, but I suspect it is not that different. But here is how the political system is set up here. The corporator of an area is normally the MLA's guy. He is nominated and given the ticket, in most cases, on the recommendation of the MLA of the area. So, they are normally hand in glove. The MP or the Minister or even the Chief Minister, it is all a chain. They may not all be part of the same chain, but they are at least a part of some chain. The top guys, such as the Chief Minister, the MP and the other Ministers don't drop down from the sky. They have all come through the grass roots, not just being fully aware of these "chains", but in most cases, being full participants of one or more of these chains. These people have it in their DNA, that not only is there nothing wrong with these "mafia chains", but that these are absolutely essential to their survival. They define their survival as requiring money and muscle, both of which can come in the quantity and magnitude that politics requires these days, only from these "mafia chains". Used to be, that the politicians were sponsored by these "mafia chains". Then the mafia guys figured out that they themselves can become politicians and open up another revenue channel. So, in our state, we are well represented in our legislative assembly by almost all major mafia groups. We have MLAs from the sand mafia, fuel mafia, diesel mafia, many many from the land mafia, forest mafia, you name it mafia.

Police, IAS officers, low and high, all get posted in our town via the patronage of the politicians. They have direct equations with the politicians, even the local TI. The local TI only nominally reports to his senior officers. His real superior is the local MLA or the Minister, who has placed him at that location either because the TI has bought that posting or these days more likely, because he will overlook all the nefarious activities of the MLA and his partners and his mafia.

Now, unless I or someone like me has something to offer to any politician or officer in my state, high or low, and something substantial which is in keeping with their incomes (which are in the billions of rupees every year), why would they disrupt any "mafia chain" or the status quo for me or a small group of us, even in those cases where they may at a high level be personally antagonistic to the particular "chain mafia" that is operating in our area ? It is all very transactional. Now, they will act, if there are sufficiently large number of people, representing a vote bank. In our town, unfortunately, people with agendas such as "clean city", "honesty", "create a Dharmic society types", "anti-corruption (real anti-corruption types)", " genuine community building types", you get my drift, those types are not sufficiently large or even more than a handful in number to be anything but a laughing stock for these politicians and mafia chains.

Yes, every now and then, since, while our mafia and political system is extremely efficient and functional in the destructive purpose that it is meant for, it is still not perfect, and so, every now and then, an honest officer or an honest policemen and sometimes even an honest politician, although extremely rarely, slips through the cracks. But this honest guy is so cowered down and out of his element that he is really not effective and in most cases is so timid that he hides his face and tries to lay low, just to survive.

shiv wrote: Are you aware of the power and jurisdiction of the local officials and politicians? I am sure there are unspoken threats, but have you been threatened for asking? Have you, for example spoken to a garbage worker and asked if you can talk to his supervisor? The bottom rung have the least power and least ability to be corrupt..
These politician and officials don't have to threaten me. They simply laugh at my types. They don't threaten. If a citizen crosses them, then, it is not that your water connection will be cut or something pro-active will happen, necessarily, unless you really disrupt their mafia big time in a very effective way, you will simply not get access to him, when you need police, or water or other essential services. Since, I live like a fakir and in ways have minimized my dependence on even these essential services, I don't worry about those, but when I try to pro-actively do things like "clean city", or "promote dharmic ethos" etc, I don't get anywhere, either with a high level politician or a low level politician or official.

The threat in most cases is not physical, although in some cases, when the mafia core interests are threatened, they will resort to that. But someone like me or even another normal citizen who has normal level of dependence on the system for his day to day survival can never really threaten these mafia core interests, generally. It is the loss of access, which is absolutely necessary for day to day living for most citizens, which acts as a deterrent to them speaking out.
shiv wrote: I can see your frustration but there is no easy way out. There must be some people other who feel like you do. Have you spoken to them and organized a local residents body? Fighting the system is not easy. You have to work within the system and see if there is anyone who is clean and helpful. It should be possible to find someone. In our local areas we were told by senior police officials that the lower downs were corrupt that that if we had serious issues we would be better off approaching them directly.
Even where you are, in Bangalore, how many genuinely clean people do you know, forget about politicians, just take normal people, business people, lawyers, doctors, other professionals ? And I am not being a purist, not seeking for 100% perfection in anyone, but just someone who is clean enough that he a) has an interest in community building and thinking beyond himself, b) not be dependent to a large degree on access to politicians or officials to live out their day to day lives ?

The only other way is if you are so wealthy, that you can buy access, even at the exorbitant rate, which is now prevalent for access in India.

Oh, and then there is always that one last resort, which is culturally very Indian. Use your contacts. Someone I know, or the cousin of my cousin, or someone with me in college or even a close relative, will probably be somewhere in some position of power. So, then I can call that person, who in turn can call the person concerned with my problem, request in the name of this being an old classmate's problem and get it solved. Or make new contacts. Go, keep visiting the local MLA or minister periodically, sing his praises, grovel, and maybe, on a good day, he will solve my problem.

If a person chooses not to do any of the above, then naturally, the fool is well deserving of being laughed at and ridiculed, isn't it ?

I too, like you, am writing a book, but mine is about what exists in India today, at least in my neck of the woods. In fact, I have completed it now. For the longest time, I could not find a publisher in India, but now I am close to signing a contract with a small, boutique publisher. Thank God, there has been an explosion of small publishers in India in recent years. I don't know how well I have written, but the subject matter is explosive. It is all about what I see around me and what I have experienced, and what other "clean" people have experienced just living here, but has a lot of history and is written like a novel, even though it is a true story with real live characters and pictures and all. It should be available in the January/Feb 2015 timeframe.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

TSJones wrote:It maybe unfair but it does not matter what I think since I am not Indic nor am I citizen of Bhatatiya, now does it?
Small nit - a citizen of bhArata varsha (or if one want to use a more recent word dEsha - state) is called a bhAratIya, viz. a person who lives in the land that was once ruled by bhArata. It could be a state of mind too.
Sometimes I do see you displaying some bhAratIya characteristics proving the point that there is some bhAratIyata in every human (mAnava, literally descendants of manu to denote every human being).

mAnavatva == the state of being human
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

IITB people doing something about sanitation instead of waxing eloquent in some high faluting fillosophy saving water at the same time. A completely non-religious solution using common sense and simple technology.

Mahatma's Mandate: Sanitation
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by TSJones »

matrimc wrote:
TSJones wrote:It maybe unfair but it does not matter what I think since I am not Indic nor am I citizen of Bhatatiya, now does it?
Small nit - a citizen of bhArata varsha (or if one want to use a more recent word dEsha - state) is called a bhAratIya, viz. a person who lives in the land that was once ruled by bhArata. It could be a state of mind too.
Sometimes I do see you displaying some bhAratIya characteristics proving the point that there is some bhAratIyata in every human (mAnava, literally descendants of manu to denote every human being).

mAnavatva == the state of being human
Thanks for the info matrimc. Unfortunately I mis-spelled Bharatiya because my typing skills are deplorable. However, I will certainly keep your information in mind.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote: Even where you are, in Bangalore, how many genuinely clean people do you know, forget about politicians, just take normal people, business people, lawyers, doctors, other professionals ?
Actually thousands. We live in different countries.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv wrote:
rsangram wrote: Even where you are, in Bangalore, how many genuinely clean people do you know, forget about politicians, just take normal people, business people, lawyers, doctors, other professionals ?
Actually thousands. We live in different countries.
I read a lot. I do a fair amount of research as well, on social and political issues. I try to stay up on things, certainly in India, but also internationally. And I am not a kid any more. My genuine impression to this day, as I write this, is that while the South of course is a little better than North India in the type of issues we have been talking about, the South is still India and it still has at least 80% of the same issues and the extent of the same issues there. During my visits to the South, it does visually look more organized, more than trivial amounts more organized and certainly quite a bit cleaner as far as public spaces go. Now, of course I have not traveled through the "entire" South, or can claim to have traveled through even large areas of the South, so my visuals are all anecdotal. But even my research has supported my current thinking which is that even the South is rife with mafias (organized vested interests), the Reddy brothers of the BJP, just being one prominent example as champion mining mafias, that the South too is very corrupt, right up to the top, with the likes of Yeduruppa, Jailalitha, Y Rajashekhara Reddy (late) and the South too is a big time victim of vote bank politics and castiesm to the extreme. I am also given to understand that the Kerala beaches and even the backwaters have been almost completely polluted now.

Now, if you say that a non trivial chunk of population has managed to stay reasonably clean (clean on the inside), even if just in urban pockets, even just in some areas of Bangalore, then I am all open to being corrected in my thinking. In fact, while I think it is entirely logically possible for such a scenario to exist, emotionally, when I see everything around me, where corruption and mafia is so ingrained and so deeply entrenched in our DNA, and then I think that even South Indians are Indians, emotionally, there develops a strong mental block against believing that even a relatively enlightened and educated place like Bangalore will be much different.

However, I am yearning for my current thinking to be proven wrong and it will be a very happy moment for me, when I am actually able to locate even one or two non-trivial sized communities, anywhere in India, that are relatively clean (by clean, I dont mean externally clean, I mean honest and clean on the inside).

I would definitely like to know much much more about these thousands, perhaps, hundreds of thousands of people in Bangalore who are, shall i say, "normal indians".

And when I say South is a little better, I mean, little better than my general habitat and eco-system, which is the Hindi Belt. I am not casting any aspersions on places like Punjab or Himachal or even Orissa, which are not within what is typically the Hindi belt. I am not very knowledgeable about these places in North and East India enough to say one way or another.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv wrote: We live in different countries.
I knew from the time you mentioned Vijayanagar empire, that in your heart you want to disown the rest of us and really secede. :)
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote:
shiv wrote: We live in different countries.
I knew from the time you mentioned Vijayanagar empire, that in your heart you want to disown the rest of us and really secede. :)
rsangramji - have it your way. Although it would be better if your part (which you have failed to name - is it really that shameful?) seceded - but I don't think people have the guts, resources or initiative to do that in your neck of the woods, given your excruciatingly detailed description of their failures. Even for secession you are asking that someone else should do it, confident that others would be able to do that better. Like garbage disposal. That is funny. :D If this is how you deal with people in your area your own failures are unsurprising.

In any case, after this post you will be on my ignore list. It's not been particularly pleasant for me to try and understand your view. But I don't think I need to know any more.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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While we are on the topic of public toilets sanitation, I have two incidients to relate.

1. About 15 years or so ago, we were visiting Notre Dame. Sicne the guidebook said it is better to be there before the doors open, we were there by 8 AM or so. As soon as we got the tickets and before we were allowed to enter, I had to empty my bladder (a couple of coffee that morning coupled with a couple of beers along with veggie burgers at the McDs the night before* have had their effect) quite urgently and we were looking around thankfully were directed to a public toilets at one of the corners of the plaza. When we arrived there I was little distressed there being a long line but what to do? We started waiting. The line was moving very slowly and a little bit craning my neck I could see that there were turnstiles and one has to put a quarter or half a franc for the turnstile to let one enter. In fact there was an young woman - actually late teens - who was manning the turnstiles. I could see that almost all the people in the line were tourists who did not know french and did not have the necessary change on them. Whenever the young woman was aproached she would curtly say something in french to the effect that she does not have any change. The end result was that the tourists were - sheepishly - asking each other for change and going in one by one. Due to all this the line was moving excruciatingly (or that is how I felt) slowly.

Meanwhile a drama was plying out on the side in full view of all the people waiting in the line. There was an old man who standing a little away from the line but close to the turnstile as if he wanted to cut in front of everybody. He had long unkempt white hair and long wild beard and was wearing worn and dirty (but expensive going by the cut and the fine wool they were made of) heavy winter clothes in early summer. Every two or three minutes this man would go up to the woman and plead with her in french and she would shout at him and say something in french about money and turnstiles and shoo him away. Every time he goes up to the woman his pleading would get more desperate and he would hop from one leg to the other. Obviously his bladder/bowels were not holding up and he was in great amount of distress fearing that he might soil his clothes. It was also obvious that he the requisite coins to get past the turnstile. Also there was this long line which he had to deal with. After about half dozens times of getting shooed away from the turnstile by the young woman, looks like the poor man could not take it anymore. From about 20 feet or so he came running at on of the turnstiles, jumped over it and ran it one of the stalls. By then I was quite close to the head of the line and I could see that he did not even close the stall door and there were loud sounds of emptying of bowels accompanied with passing of gas and huge very loud sighs of relief. There was embarrassment all around and nobody could look at other in the eye. Was that old man a great great great ... grandson of Marie Antoinette? A Quasimodo whose hunchback was corrected in a public hospital for free but was rendered homeless because his home was turned into a tourist attraction? Were there were no Monseigneur Bienvenus right outside that grand cathedral with such a magnificent knave?

* One can get beer at McDs in Paris. As French cuisine is quite inimical to vegetarian sensibilities we ate in American establishments while in Paris (and versailles).

2. Closer to home, about a decade ago, our city passed a resolution to tear down the old library and build a new one in its place. The old library was quite serviceable and they could have easily extended it with minimal expenditure (if space was really as big a constraint as it was made out to be). But then the housing market was hot and the property taxes were rolling in . So against the advice of a few sane fiscally conservative people (one of them is a PIO friend of mine, a CA from India, and practicing accounting in a large public corporation near by) they tore down the old and built a brand new library for $28 million. Fast forward a few years and the bubble burst. The library had clean modern toilets with rolls of tissue and nice paper towels aplenty. Just around that time, the few homeless shelters in town had reduced the number of days people could stay at these shelters from three to two due to funding cuts and the bad shape state and federal finances. Then some thing curious started happening in the library. Every other day around lunch time, I would go to the library and spend half an hour or so browsing the just arrived book shelves. Then I would see a large number of old and young people who would be hanging around the library in the atrium - not in the reading room nor in the stacks - and one by one they would go into the toilet wash their faces, arms etc,, dry with the paper towels, use the stalls and generally use up all the tissue paper. This went on for about a year or two. Then the library hired a security guard who would stand at the entrance and usually say hello to people who are obvious library users. Now the paper towels disappeared from the towel dispensers and are replaced with hot air dryers. and I don't see that many hangers on at the library. So what happened to these homeless people who were using the library toilets? I have no idea.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Let me apply some science here.

If dirty water supply causes disease, then clean water supply must be made a right
If poor nutrition causes disease, then the right to adequate nutrition becomes a universal right.

Now what if we find that single mothers and broken families lead to criminal behaviour among children and the adults that those children become, should we not ensure the child's right to have a stable family with mother and father? It turns out that as per the viewpoint of dharma a child has the right to a mother an father in a stable family.

In fact that should be a universal right. Family needs to be encouraged to be stable. Man must stick to his wife. Marriages must be encouraged to work even after the kama (lust) aspect dies down.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

A_Gupta wrote:The specific language used is less relevant.
Even when using English, it makes sense to choose to keep Sanskrit, Tamil, Santali, etc. words, especially concepts, as they are without using a bostordized translation. There is a lot to this and could become a juggernaut (look up the origins of this word!) if only, there is a concerted effort to educate Indian children in this way.
I am sure this will cause takleef on both sides or all sides of the fence.

News headline: "Bharat and Japan eye breakthrough on Anu Vidyut Sandhi" :mrgreen:
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ :D
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

shiv wrote:

rsangramji - have it your way. Although it would be better if your part (which you have failed to name - is it really that shameful?) seceded - but I don't think people have the guts, resources or initiative to do that in your neck of the woods, given your excruciatingly detailed description of their failures. Even for secession you are asking that someone else should do it, confident that others would be able to do that better. Like garbage disposal. That is funny. :D If this is how you deal with people in your area your own failures are unsurprising.

In any case, after this post you will be on my ignore list. It's not been particularly pleasant for me to try and understand your view. But I don't think I need to know any more.
You are free to do what you wish. I have checked and re-checked my posts, I did not notice any personal slight I might have made inadvertently towards you. In fact I have been quite complimentary. And I checked the posts in the spirit of adhering to my guiding principle of trying not hurt anyone personally through my actions, not in the spirit of justifying anything to you. So, if you have still gotten offended, you have other reasons, which are all inside of you and nothing to do with me.

Nevertheless, on an outside chance that the "secession" part has hurt you, in case you missed it, it was a joke, and at my expense, where I was attempting to acknowledge the superiority of people of Banglore and your part of the country in the matters we have been discussing. I was not advocating secession in any way, shape or form. It was purely an attempt at humor to lighten things up, after the nature of discussion we have been having.

Therefore, I am not sure what specifically you were attributing my "failure" to ? "Dealing with people in my area" in what way ? What exactly was your objection ? Or are you just so disturbed by hearing reality, that you are trying to shoot the messenger ? I don't blame you for being disturbed, I was disturbed too, when I first encountered it, but I tried not to lash out like you, when my long standing beliefs were and are challenged.

If you don't believe me, all you have do is come out here and talk to the perpetrators themselves. The mafia, the politicians, the bureaucrats, the policemen and even a large number of ordinary people who have bought into the mafia system and are now a part of it. They are so brazen, they don't even try to conceal it or hide it. No, no hypocrisy here, they will admit to everything themselves and actually call you a fool if you point out the mafia system is bad.

As to, where specifically I am from. I wanted to spare the citizens of my state the embarrassment, regardless of their misdeeds. So, I said that I live in the Hindi belt. It is roughly the same across the entire Hindi belt. Bihar, Jharkhand, MP, UP, Chattisgarh (to a little lesser extent). I will be happy to tell you privately, where I am from. But I do request that you don't pressure me to release the exact location I am at, after all, they are still my people and it is still my state. However, I do reveal it in my book, because my publisher insisted on it, in order to classify the book as non-fiction. And my book has a bibliography 18 pages long, with scores of citations from well known and credible sources, such as newspaper articles, web articles, government documents, archives etc.

I readily admit to my failure in "cleaning" up my surroundings, either external or people's souls, around where I live, and yes, the failure could be partly or even fully due to my own shortcomings.

I congratulate you for achieving success in both in Banglore, a clean Banglore and clean Bangloreans. I wish you the very best.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

Shiv, interesting you should mention the necessity of keeping families together.
On US's National Public Radio:
http://www.wnyc.org/story/wanted-few-br ... ach-pre-k/

Wanted: A Few Brave Men Willing to Teach Pre-K(indergarten)
Nationwide, men make up just about 2 percent of early education teachers, according to 2012 labor statistics. ....

Men can play an important role in the development of young children. And experts said they’re particularly important role models for boys who grow up without a male father figure.

“I think the absence of men in the lives of boys is one that they experience some pain around,” said Oscar Barbarin, a psychology professor at Tulane University whose work focuses on the education and upbringing of minority boys.

Male teachers, he said, can help keep vulnerable students engaged and more naturally teach them important lessons about life outside the classroom.

“There’s many small things and big things” a male teacher can do to display what it means to be a man, Barbarin said. “How does a man carry himself, and how does he react, and how does he deal with being both gentle and strong at the same time?”
Sad, isn't it, that this is necessary?

I'm all for expounding on the dharma of family. It will take a lot of work, philosophical and practical, to promote the idea of family staying together and to make it actually work.

FYI, Ms. Sankaran took a lot of flack for writing this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/opini ... india.html
The Good Men of India
By LAVANYA SANKARAN

BANGALORE, India — IN India today, the rapes of women, from children to grandmothers, are daily news. Frothy television programs on sentimentalized family values are interrupted by advertisements for a new smartphone app: VithU, which allows women in danger, at a double press of a power button, to send an S O S alert with their location to predesignated friends and family members.

Universities are debating requiring students to abandon jeans and adopt formal dress codes, as though the trappings of civilization are needed to hold at bay the anarchy of sexual violence. Twelve-year-old schoolgirls are attending rape awareness seminars, in a death of innocence.

Indian cities are awash with feral men, untethered from their distant villages, divorced from family and social structure, fighting poverty, exhausted, denied access to regular female companionship, adrift on powerful tides of alcohol and violent *****, newly exposed to the smart young women of the cities, with their glistening jobs and clothes and casual independence — and not able to respond to any of it in a safe, civilized manner. This is the world of women under siege, the medieval world of the walking undead, the rise of the zombies, targeting females rich and poor. For women, at least, winter is coming.

In this context, it might appear odd to examine any other variant of the Indian male. But it is important to do so and to do so now. To bear witness to an alternate male reality that also pervades India on a daily basis.

This is what I witnessed on a recent flight from Kolkata to Bangalore. The plane was typical of budget air travel: full of businessmen and mothers. The smart flight attendants were young men. The pilot, captain of the flight deck, was a woman. This is not an uncommon combination in India these days. I was struck instead by the behavior of the male passengers.

In most countries, a woman clambering aboard a plane with a fretful infant and turning a crowded row of six into a de facto row of seven is usually met with hostility. Here, every other row seemed larded with these women and their babies. But those stuffy Indian businessmen — men of middle management, dodging bottles and diaper bags and carelessly flung toys — they didn’t grumble. Instead, up and down the plane, I saw them helping. Holding babies so that mothers could eat. Burping infants and entertaining toddlers. Not because they knew these women, but because being concerned and engaged was their normal mode of social behavior. So, I will say this — Indian men can also be among the kindest in the world.

Women know this. When I asked my friends and acquaintances — both Indian and expatriate — about their perceptions of Indian men, they mentioned intelligence, wit and a reverence for learning. Others described gregarious partners who knew how to relax and enjoy themselves. All of them talked about commitment and caring. One said, “I love that he is deeply concerned about his parents.” An Englishwoman said of her long-term Indian partner, “He makes me feel cherished and taken care of in a manner I never experienced in the U.K.” Another said of her father, “He supported my mother through their marriage, through her job, with the kids, her health, everything.” A 16-year-old schoolgirl echoed this: “You feel safe with them. No matter what, they will see you home safely.”

Strong familial commitment is not a phenomenon restricted to the urban middle classes. Migrant laborers care for wives and children, and still send money home to their parents. The young woman who was gang-raped on a New Delhi bus on Dec. 16 had a village-raised father who supported her ardently. This part of the story is so unsurprising, it rarely makes the news.

Let me introduce the Common Indian Male, a category that deserves taxonomic recognition: committed, concerned, cautious; intellectually curious, linguistically witty; socially gregarious, endearingly awkward; quick to laugh, slow to anger. Frequently spotted in domestic circles, traveling in a family herd. He has been sighted in sari shops and handbag stores, engaged in debating his spouse’s selection with the sons and daughters who trail behind. There is, apparently, no domestic decision that is not worthy of his involvement.

There is a telling phrase that best captures the Indian man in a relationship — whether as lover, parent or friend: not “I love you” but “Main hoon na.” It translates to “I’m here for you” but is better explained as a hug of commitment — “Never fear, I’m here.” These are men for whom commitment is a joy, a duty and a deep moral anchor.

At its excessive worst, this sensibility can produce annoyances: a sentimentalized addiction to Mummy; concern that becomes judgmental and stifling; and a proud or oversensitive emotional landscape.

But when it is at its best, the results, in women’s lives, speak for themselves. If the image of the Indian female as victim is true, so, too, is its converse: the Indian woman who coexists as a strong survivor, as conqueror, as worshiped goddess made flesh. Indian women have served as prime minister and president. They head banks and large corporations. They are formidable politicians, religious heads, cultural icons, judges, athletes and even godmothers of crime.

Modern India has a muscular democracy and a growing economy, both of which have significantly transformed the lives of women. But female success, in a place like India with complicated social structures and a tradition of the Old Uncle Network, doesn’t happen in isolation. A successful woman is very likely to have had a supportive male in her life: a father, a spouse, a friend, a mentor.

For his part, the Indian male, when nested in family and community, is part of a domestic tapestry that is intricately woven and vital, it seems, to his own sense of well-being. Take that away from him, hurl him away — and a possible result is a man unmoored, lost, adrift and, potentially, a danger to himself and to his world. Disconnection causes social disengagement and despair — and the behavior that is the product of alienation and despair.

Lavanya Sankaran is the author of the novel “The Hope Factory.”
Isn't "the Indian male, nested in family and community, part of a domestic tapestry that is intricately woven and vital" what we want?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

About male kindergarten teachers - I think there are studies that show that women are simply better at this. Will search and post if possible. Kids relate better to women. You cannot replace a father at home with a male teacher in kindergarten. The young male could well latch on to some other random male that he finds admirable. Kids need the softness of wimmens as well as the role model of male at home.

Back in the UK i used to hear white English nurses say that Indians would make good husbands - they were doctors and tended to remain faithful.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Its not the men, its the culture
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/pune ... 385108.cms
"On one hand, men abroad are more liberal-minded and have larger acceptance levels. But they do not think twice before moving out of a relationship if they want to. Indian men, on the other hand, are more socially conscious of their marital status and try hard to settle issues and problems related to marriages. That makes them more stable than their global counterparts."

Psychiatrist and counsellor Suchitra Date, feels there are many reasons why Indian men are sought after. "Indian men are brought up in an environment that is sensitive to women and they have a tendency to dote on their wives. They are also more faithful towards their spouses and do not have many expectations from them. These are some of the specific traits that give security to women and I have seen many foreign women absolutely content after marrying Indian men. Of course there are exceptions. But, about 70 per cent Indian men are good husbands," adds Date.

Be it the emotional quotient that Indian men bring to a marriage, or the security that they would not stray very often, women all over the world seem to share a belief quite matching Arbatova's.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

TSJ: A little item for your perusal (from Wiki).

Language family
..Indo-European samskrutam
....Germanic
......West Germanic
........North Sea Germanic
..........Anglo–Frisian
............Anglic
..............English

By the way, I wanted to make the color for English white but on second thoughts used a very light green in keeping with the current situation. You might have heard of UK elevating the terrorist threat level to the second highest level.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_28705 »

shiv wrote: I think Indian vegetarianism will tell us a lot more about health and disease if only the medical community were not so cocky and self assured that their western methods cannot be touched so help me God.
Not just health and disease, but also environment.
Consider the excerpt hereunder:
Globally, consumption growth is the single biggest driver of water stress. Rising incomes, for example, have promoted changing diets, especially a greater intake of meat, whose production is notoriously water-intensive.

Production of meat, on average, is 10 times more water-intensive than plant-based calories and proteins. [Note: While I am sure that most of us knew that meat farming is water-intensive, I think at least some of us will be surprised by these numbers]

If the world stopped diverting food to feed livestock and produce biofuels, it could not only abolish hunger but also feed a four-billion-larger population, according to a University of Minnesota study.

In China, South Korea and Southeast Asia, traditional diets have been transformed in the last one generation alone, becoming much meatier.

The only silver lining for India’s dismal water situation is the fact that its per capita meat consumption remains the lowest in the world, with a large segment of its population vegetarian.

Had India’s consumptive profile been similar to that of the U.S. — the world’s largest consumer of meat, energy and water — it probably would have become one of the planet’s most-parched states.
The full (and magnificent) article by Mr. Chellaney is here http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/th ... 707274.ece

PS: I regard most of India as mostly vegetarian, considering the fact that even our non-vegetarians eat meat only occasionally. Further, I don't/didn't have qualms preaching vegetarianism considering the number of times my 'friends', 'liberals' and 'college-mates' have attempted to coax me into 'trying' meat.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_28705 »

shiv wrote:Its not the men, its the culture
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/pune ... 385108.cms
"On one hand, men abroad are more liberal-minded and have larger acceptance levels. But they do not think twice before moving out of a relationship if they want to. Indian men, on the other hand, are more socially conscious of their marital status and try hard to settle issues and problems related to marriages. That makes them more stable than their global counterparts."

Psychiatrist and counsellor Suchitra Date, feels there are many reasons why Indian men are sought after. "Indian men are brought up in an environment that is sensitive to women and they have a tendency to dote on their wives. They are also more faithful towards their spouses and do not have many expectations from them. These are some of the specific traits that give security to women and I have seen many foreign women absolutely content after marrying Indian men. Of course there are exceptions. But, about 70 per cent Indian men are good husbands," adds Date.

Be it the emotional quotient that Indian men bring to a marriage, or the security that they would not stray very often, women all over the world seem to share a belief quite matching Arbatova's.
Shiv ji,

How I wish the Indian feminazis, SLIME, Wesbanized women realise this. However, I want to selectively quote you
shiv wrote:Family needs to be encouraged to be stable. Man must stick to his wife. Marriages must be encouraged to work even after the kama (lust) aspect dies down.
A man must stick to his wife. A lady must stick to her husband. But it takes two to tango. How is it possible to sustain a failing marriage when one party holds western, hedonistic and individualistic values more dear?

Further, an urban woman can always 'tame' her faltering husband thru several fora ranging from familial to legal to police. She can use saama-daana-danda to 'transform' her husband. However,
shiv wrote:Man must stick to his wife.
However, the present day draconian framework of 498a, DVC etc. offers little scope for the husband to bring the wife to track. Like I said before, it takes two to tango - be it husband and wife; or be it raja and praja.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Neshant »

The Spanish were absolutely barbaric when they invaded the Americas and murdered the native Indians in the 1400s. The depravity of their acts are quite unparalleled.

Its all narrated in the book "A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies - by Bartolomé de las Casas" - audio book on youtube. Its a first hand account of a man who witnessed it.

The woodcut images in the book give an indication of what was an absolute Holocaust of these rather passive Indian people. All in the name of Christ.

Let there be no doubt among any peacenik who might be talking peace & disarmament. The fact is the only thing that protects any nation/people from being brutalised in this manner are weapons capable of inflicting equal and opposite damage on any adversary.

This they did to everyone including those who offered them food and gifts when they landed on the shores of the new world.

A slow burning to death to maximize the suffering while the men & women were hung and other cruelties

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Many more images here : http://www.lehigh.edu/~ejg1/doc/lascasas/casas.htm
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Kati »

How MI6 helped torture and kill Nepali maoists.....

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140831/j ... AJ3-8VdUhs

By the way, silence of AI or other western human rights groups against MI6/UK government
is deafening.....
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Neshant wrote:The Spanish were absolutely barbaric when they invaded the Americas and murdered the native Indians in the 1400s. The depravity of their acts are quite unparalleled.

Its all narrated in the book "A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies - by Bartolomé de las Casas" - audio book on youtube. Its a first hand account of a man who witnessed it.

The woodcut images in the book give an indication of what was an absolute Holocaust of these rather passive Indian people. All in the name of Christ.

Let there be no doubt among any peacenik who might be talking peace & disarmament. The fact is the only thing that protects any nation/people from being brutalised in this manner are weapons capable of inflicting equal and opposite damage on any adversary.

This they did to everyone including those who offered them food and gifts when they landed on the shores of the new world.
Thanks for posting - and you know - up until very recently I have been reading about archaeologists form these very barbaric nations studying ancient Incan ruins and saying that the people were barbaric and how they chopped off arms legs and heads of their own children. Colonial plunder and today's wealth are one continuing sequence of history where the horror and killing have been covered up and replaced by a halo of goodness of "universalism" that is sought to be spread across the entire planet.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote:Family needs to be encouraged to be stable. Man must stick to his wife. Marriages must be encouraged to work even after the kama (lust) aspect dies down.
Kama is more than lust. It is all of desire. A man and woman in marriage are entrusted to share their Artha (wealth and power), Kama (desires) and Dharma (duties) jointly. It is this joint ownership of these objectives and obligations that bind a couple to stay in marriage as opposed to a selfish decision (in most cases) based on "free will" leading to a divorce and in most cases the destruction of the family.

But, there is more to a family than just a marriage. Respect for elders, the ability to live in a family and respect decisions of family elders - based on dharma, is under severe threat, partly due to lack of declarative knowledge of elders about Dharma and inability to explain the nuances of dharma, its implications and value and partly due to the creeping values of individualism and extreme "independence" - which I equate to selfishness. A western framework as our formal laws devoid of any continuum with our past does not help either.

The ideas of independence and free would have to be challenged as its own independent value system. Free will is subject to the rules of dharma, which has hard rules. So in a sense it is Dharma that reigns supreme NOT free will. Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitah is not a brain fart. It makes complete sense for if people do not respect and adhere to Dharma, there will be no dharma. Its values and rules will no longer work, if not practiced and enforced - as is happening today. This slide of declarative dharma has been in making for at least 1200 years. It is time to restore.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

KrisP wrote: A man must stick to his wife. A lady must stick to her husband. But it takes two to tango. How is it possible to sustain a failing marriage when one party holds western, hedonistic and individualistic values more dear?

Further, an urban woman can always 'tame' her faltering husband thru several fora ranging from familial to legal to police. She can use saama-daana-danda to 'transform' her husband. However,

However, the present day draconian framework of 498a, DVC etc. offers little scope for the husband to bring the wife to track. Like I said before, it takes two to tango - be it husband and wife; or be it raja and praja.
Too true - and I always realize that when I talk about this subject it could evoke pain for some people - or at least the dilemmas that you have posed.

I don't think it will be possible to make "staying married" an unbreakable law simply because people sadly do lose spouses from causes other than incompatibility and divorce. But the point that I have been trying to make when I talk about concepts that correspond to dharma is that they stand directly opposed to "western, hedonistic and individualistic values" . It is one or the other.

From the outset dharma refers to preservation of social older as a necessary precondition for man and woman to perform their duties. Social order in the Indian context is built around the family. Some aspects of dharma require man and woman to be together. Sexual desire in particular can only be assuaged by sexual union. But lust combined with a rejection of one's duties to family is totally against dharma and damages the family centered social structure.

So the Indian social structure demands conscious and voluntary abnegation of one's own selfish, individualistic, hedonistic needs in favor of living, sharing and working with a core family group of parents and children. That mans that even if neighbour's wife is attractive and willing, one must be disciplined enough to keep off.

Western concepts of individual over society combined with freedom of expression encourage excess lust and concepts like individual wealth and pleasures over sharing with family. Unfortunately the Indian way is a sacrifice - one has to be trained from childhood in the discipline of taking less for oneself to leave a little bit for others of one's family. Even lust is to be controlled, and declaring lust and sexual desires as an uncontrollable emotion that must be given free rein is a mistake that damages social order in the long term. The easier route is to be selfish and take more for oneself and lustful and enjoy free sex with multiple partners under the concept of freedom and complete physical enjoyment. Acharya Rajneesh at Osho of course dealt with some of these issues beautifully - aimed at the western free sex audience to demonstrate that spiritual upliftment can come after fulfillment of all lustful tendencies.

But for society to work in harmony for centuries with well adjusted adults it needs to be built around a stable core family and for that the individual has to play second fiddle to the collective family group, suppressing his greed and his lust - and unless this training comes from childhood - society will suffer. Western "universalism" is actually extremely damaging to core family structure in the way individual rights like freedom and personal pleasures and ownership are pushed. Unfortunately - for a rebellious young man sexual urges starting by age 16 remain strong and it becomes dead easy to immerse oneself in sexual pleasures right from that age in a sexually permissive environment that has been born out of values that are now touted as universal values.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Neshant »

shiv wrote:Thanks for posting - and you know - up until very recently I have been reading about archaeologists form these very barbaric nations studying ancient Incan ruins and saying that the people were barbaric and how they chopped off arms legs and heads of their own children. Colonial plunder and today's wealth are one continuing sequence of history where the horror and killing have been covered up and replaced by a halo of goodness of "universalism" that is sought to be spread across the entire planet.
Its a total white wash of the issue.

The book being a first hand account reads like a horror novel. It was widely supressed in Spain but fortunately got published in other countries. I got to say, that reading it affected me in a very negative way. It takes a very sick mind to go to such lengths.

Reading it left me with a feeling of rage, depression, need for revenge - but against who when the perpetrators are long gone.

The only thing we can do is keep the truth out there and prevent any white washing of these crimes by historical revisionists. Thank god Columbus did not land in India as he was anticipating during his voyage across the Atlantic.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

When I look at the historic progression of current western "developed nations" from the 1700s to today, I find a curious change.

When Europe was ruled by the Church, Christian moral values regarding sexuality were followed in Europe. Marriages could not be annulled easily, adultery was punishable and homosexuality had to remain under wraps. But the same Christian nations retained the barbaric methods used to spread Christianity in which all sorts of merciless degradation could be piled upon black or brown heathen sub human residents of Africa, America and Asia. It was pious Christians who were doing this in the name of the their God or their church.

WW1 and WW2 were seminal events because that was when a perfectly white Christian nation in the heart f Europe showed what racism and barbarism meant when used within Europe.

It was only after WW2 that white Christian nations secularized their societies and kicked out the church good an proper. What this did was to free western societies from the shackles of Christian morality which favoured marital fidelity, family centered life and looked down upon adultery. (It seems so strange to me that old Beatles hits of the 60s that I hum even today had the very same "marriage, family and wife at home, husband goes to work" morality of Christian Europe. (eg Hard Days' Night, Ob La Di Ob La Da and Eleanor Rigby. :rotfl: )

And as western societies removed Christian morality in the name of "liberalization", they brought in other ideas of universalism like freedom, equal rights etc. Actually they should have retained Christian morality but weeded out Christian brutality. That would have been enough.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by johneeG »

(This post contains some brutal and naked images. So, beware).
Neshant wrote:The Spanish were absolutely barbaric when they invaded the Americas and murdered the native Indians in the 1400s. The depravity of their acts are quite unparalleled.

Its all narrated in the book "A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies - by Bartolomé de las Casas" - audio book on youtube. Its a first hand account of a man who witnessed it.

The woodcut images in the book give an indication of what was an absolute Holocaust of these rather passive Indian people. All in the name of Christ.

Let there be no doubt among any peacenik who might be talking peace & disarmament. The fact is the only thing that protects any nation/people from being brutalised in this manner are weapons capable of inflicting equal and opposite damage on any adversary.

This they did to everyone including those who offered them food and gifts when they landed on the shores of the new world.

A slow burning to death to maximize the suffering while the men & women were hung and other cruelties

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Many more images here : http://www.lehigh.edu/~ejg1/doc/lascasas/casas.htm
Torture and Homicide in an American State Prison: Harper’s Weekly, 1858

A big part of what keeps me posting on a regular basis is the feedback that I get from readers. I also love it when I get questions that make me think or lead me to do more research. A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a post about corporal punishment and torture in early U.S. penitentiaries. It got a very big response judging from the number of views that it has amassed so far. I’m not sure why so many people seem interested in this aspect of prisons and frankly I do not want to think too deeply about it. I hope it is because people are deeply disturbed by these images and ideas. I want this to be true.

Anyway, a reader asked if I had any examples of the media of the time (19th century) inveighing against prison torture practices. In fact, I do. I have an original article from Harper’s Weekly dated December 18, 1958 titled “Torture and Homicide in an American State Prison.” I purchased the original article as a collector’s item mainly because of the illustrations that are included. I dug it out of storage earlier this week and will quote some of it below to illustrate how some media outlets covered prison torture in the 19th and early 20th centuries:

“We now present a far more fearful picture of the mismanagement of our public institutions for the confinement and correction of criminals. On 2nd inst. a convict named More, imprisoned in the State Prison at Auburn, was showered to death by prison officials. The circumstances of the case are simply as follows:

The convict, More, was a negro. He is certified to have been a man of naturally pleasant temper, but violent when crossed. On 1st inst. he was said to have been in a bad humor; he was seen, or is said to have been seen, to sharpen a knife, and to mutter threats against someone; on the strength of which he was, on 2nd inst. seized by several keepers or deputy-keepers of the State Prison, and by them dragged toward the shower-bath. Like most negroes, he entertained a lively fear of cold. He knew that the water of the shower-bath would be very cold indeed; and, after vainly appealing to the feelings of his captors to release him, he broke away from them and fled — be it remarked — to the shop where he was in the habit of working. At the door of the shop a convict arrested him; a keeper and his assistants swiftly followed: he was dragged by main force, and after many violent struggles, to the shower-bath; all the water that was in the tank — amounting to from three to five barrels, the quantity is uncertain — was showered upon him in spite of his piteous cries; a few minutes after his release from the bath he fell prostrate, was carried to his cell, and died in five minutes.

It is the homicide which we this week illustrate. The use of the shower-bath as a means of coercing criminals into submission to the orders of prison authorities began to be general about the year 1845. In that year a convict at the Auburn State Prison was whipped by order of competent authority, and died under the lash. The public indignation which was aroused by the event led to the abolition of whipping as a punishment in the prisons of the State of New York. It was preserved in other States, as, for instance, in Connecticut, in which State Prison wardens are authorized to this day to administer stripes — not over ten in number — to refractory prisoners. But in New York the cat was disused, and the shower-bath reigned in its stead.”

The article goes on for several pages to describe how the shower-bath works and to underscore several other forms of punishment that prisoners are subjected to at Auburn Prison. The expose also relies on research by leading experts about the physical and psychological effects of being subjected to the shower-bath. The article is definitely of its time as it distinguishes between whites who are believed to better be able to withstand the torture of the shower-bath and blacks who are seen as constitutionally unable to endure the practice. If you are interested in the history of American prisons, the article is worth reading and I am sure that it can be accessed through any library.

Below is an image of the shower-bath apparatus:
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The article ends with these words:

“An inquest has been held on the body of the negro. Eight men composed the jury, six of whom are said to have been prison contractors. They refused to allow the prison physician to deliver his evidence, as he wished; and found the absurd verdict that the man’s death had been ‘hastened’ by the use of the shower-bath. It is clear that if any notice is to be taken of this poor convict’s death the District Attorney must move in the matter. It remains to be seen whether he will do so; or whether the civilization of the State of New York is to be disgraced by the torture and homicide, by State officials, of a poor convict in a State prison.”
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Savaged by dogs, Electrocuted With Cattle Prods, Burned By Toxic Chemicals, Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the horrors that were committed in Iraq?

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They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month investigation for Channel 4 . It’s terrible to watch some of the videos and realise that you’re not only seeing torture in action but, in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.

The prison guards stand over their captives with electric cattle prods, stun guns, and dogs. Many of the prisoners have been ordered to strip naked. The guards are yelling abuse at them, ordering them to lie on the ground and crawl. ‘Crawl, motherf*****s, crawl.’

If a prisoner doesn’t drop to the ground fast enough, a guard kicks him or stamps on his back. There’s a high-pitched scream from one man as a dog clamps its teeth onto his lower leg.

Another prisoner has a broken ankle. He can’t crawl fast enough so a guard jabs a stun gun onto his buttocks. The jolt of electricity zaps through his naked flesh and genitals. For hours afterwards his whole body shakes.

Lines of men are now slithering across the floor of the cellblock while the guards stand over them shouting, prodding and kicking.

Second by second, their humiliation is captured on a video camera by one of the guards.

The images of abuse and brutality he records are horrifyingly familiar. These were exactly the kind of pictures from inside Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad that shocked the world this time last year.

And they are similar, too, to the images of brutality against Iraqi prisoners that this week led to the conviction of three British soldiers.

But there is a difference. These prisoners are not caught up in a war zone. They are Americans, and the video comes from inside a prison in Texas.

They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month investigation for Channel 4 that will be broadcast next week.

Our findings were not based on rumour or suspicion. They were based on solid evidence, chiefly videotapes that we collected from all over the U.S.

In many American states, prison regulations demand that any ‘use of force operation’, such as searching cells for drugs, must be filmed by a guard.

The theory is that the tapes will show proper procedure was followed and that no excessive force was used. In fact, many of them record the exact opposite.

Each tape provides a shocking insight into the reality of life inside the U.S. prison system – a reality that sits very uncomfortably with President Bush’s commitment to the battle for freedom and democracy against the forces of tyranny and oppression.

In fact, the Texas episode outlined above dates from 1996, when Bush was state Governor.

Frank Carlson was one of the lawyers who fought a compensation battle on behalf of the victims. I asked him about his reaction when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke last year and U.S. politicians rushed to express their astonishment and disgust that such abuses could happen at the hands of American guards.

‘I thought: “What hypocrisy,” Carlson told me. ‘Because they know we do it here every day.’

All the lawyers I spoke to during our investigations shared Carlson’s belief that Abu Ghraib, far from being the work of a few rogue individuals, was simply the export of the worst practices that take place in the domestic prison system all the time. They pointed to the mountain of files stacked on their desks, on the floor, in their office corridors – endless stories of appalling, sadistic treatment inside America’s own prisons.

Many of the tapes we’ve collected are several years old. That’s because they only surface when determined lawyers prise them out of reluctant state prison departments during protracted lawsuits.

But for every ‘historical’ tape we collected, we also found a more recent story. What you see on the tape is still happening daily.

It’s terrible to watch some of the videos and realise that you’re not only seeing torture in action but, in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.

In one horrific scene, a naked man, passive and vacant, is seen being led out of his cell by prison guards. They strap him into a medieval-looking device called a ‘restraint chair’. His hands and feet are shackled, there’s a strap across his chest, his head lolls forward. He looks dead. He’s not. Not yet.

The chair is his punishment because guards saw him in his cell with a pillowcase on his head and he refused to take it off. The man has a long history of severe schizophrenia. Sixteen hours later, they release him from the chair. And two hours after that, he dies from a blood clot resulting from his barbaric treatment.

The tape comes from Utah – but there are others from Connecticut, Florida, Texas, Arizona and probably many more. We found more than 20 cases of prisoners who’ve died in the past few years after being held in a restraint chair.

Two of the deaths we investigated were in the same county jail in Phoenix, Arizona, which is run by a man who revels in the title of ‘America’s Toughest Sheriff.’

His name is Joe Arpaio. He positively welcomes TV crews and we were promised ‘unfettered access.’ It was a reassuring turn of phrase – you don’t want to be fettered in one of Sheriff Joe’s jails.

We uncovered two videotapes from surveillance cameras showing how his tough stance can end in tragedy.

The first tape, from 2001, shows a man named Charles Agster dragged in by police, handcuffed at the wrists and ankles. Agster is mentally disturbed and a drug user. He was arrested for causing a disturbance in a late-night grocery store. The police handed him over to the Sheriff’s deputies in the jail. Agster is a tiny man, weighing no more than nine stone, but he’s struggling.

The tape shows nine deputies manhandling him into the restraint chair. One of them kneels on Agster’s stomach, pushing his head forward on to his knees and pulling his arms back to strap his wrists into the chair.

Bending someone double for any length of time is dangerous – the manuals on the use of the ‘restraint chair’ warn of the dangers of ‘positional asphyxia.’

Fifteen minutes later, a nurse notices Agster is unconscious. The cameras show frantic efforts to resuscitate him, but he’s already brain dead. He died three days later in hospital. Agster’s family is currently suing Arizona County.

His mother, Carol, cried as she told me: ‘If that’s not torture, I don’t know what is.’ Charles’s father, Chuck, listened in silence as we filmed the interview, but every so often he padded out of the room to cry quietly in the kitchen.

The second tape, from five years earlier, shows Scott Norberg dying a similar death in the same jail. He was also a drug user arrested for causing a nuisance. Norberg was severely beaten by the guards, stunned up to 19 times with a Taser gun and forced into the chair where – like Charles Agster – he suffocated.

The county’s insurers paid Norberg’s family more than £4 millions in an out-of-court settlement, but the sheriff was furious with the deal. ‘My officers were clear,’ he said. ‘The insurance firm was afraid to go before a jury.’

Now he’s determined to fight the Agster case all the way through the courts. Yet tonight, in Sheriff Joe’s jail, there’ll probably be someone else strapped into the chair.

Not all the tapes we uncovered were filmed by the guards themselves. Linda Evans smuggled a video camera into a hospital to record her son, Brian. You can barely see his face through all the tubes and all you can hear is the rhythmic sucking of the ventilator.

He was another of Sheriff Joe’s inmates. After an argument with guards, he told a prison doctor they’d beaten him up. Six days later, he was found unconscious of the floor of his cell with a broken neck, broken toes and internal injuries. After a month in a coma, he died from septicaemia.

‘Mr Arpaio is responsible.’ Linda Evans told me, struggling to speak through her tears. ‘He seems to thrive on this cruelty and this mentality that these men are nothing.’

In some of the tapes it’s not just the images, it’s also the sounds that are so unbearable. There’s one tape from Florida which I’ve seen dozens of times but it still catches me in the stomach.

It’s an authorised ‘use of force operation’ – so a guard is videoing what happens. They’re going to Taser a prisoner for refusing orders.

The tape shows a prisoner lying on an examination table in the prison hospital. The guards are instructing him to climb down into a wheelchair. ‘I can’t, I can’t!’ he shouts with increasing desperation. ‘It hurts!’

One guard then jabs him on both hips with a Taser. The man jerks as the electricity hits him and shrieks, but still won’t get into the wheelchair.

The guards grab him and drop him into the chair. As they try to bend his legs up on to the footrest, he screams in pain. The man’s lawyer told me he has a very limited mental capacity. He says he has a back injury and can’t walk or bend his legs without intense pain.

The tape becomes even more harrowing. The guards try to make the prisoner stand up and hold a walking frame. He falls on the floor, crying in agony. They Taser him again. He runs out of the energy and breath to cry and just lies there moaning.

One of the most recent video tapes was filmed in January last year. A surveillance camera in a youth institution in California records an argument between staff members and two ‘wards’ – they’re not called prisoners.

One of the youths hits a staff member in the face. He knocks the ward to the floor then sits astride him punching him over and over again in the head.

Watching the tape you can almost feel each blow. The second youth is also punched and kicked in the head – even after he’s been handcuffed. Other staff just stand around and watch.

We also collected some truly horrific photographs.

A few years ago, in Florida, the new warden of the high security state prison ordered an end to the videoing of ‘use of force operations.’ So we have no tapes to show how prison guards use pepper spray to punish prisoners.

But we do have the lawsuit describing how men were doused in pepper spray and then left to cook in the burning fog of chemicals. Photographs taken by their lawyers show one man has a huge patch of raw skin over his hip. Another is covered in an angry rash across his neck, back and arms. A third has deep burns on his buttocks.

‘They usually use fire extinguishers size canisters of pepper spray,’ lawyer Christopher Jones explained. ‘We have had prisoners who have had second degree burns all over their bodies.

‘The tell-tale sign is they turn off the ventilation fans in the unit. Prisoners report that cardboard is shoved in the crack of the door to make sure it’s really air-tight.’

And why were they sprayed? According to the official prison reports, their infringements included banging on the cell door and refusing medication. From the same Florida prison we also have photographs of Frank Valdes – autopsy pictures. Realistically, he had little chance of ever getting out of prison alive. He was on Death Row for killing a prison officer. He had time to reconcile himself to the Electric Chair – he didn’t expect to be beaten to death.

Valdes started writing to local Florida newspapers to expose the corruption and brutality of prison officers. So a gang of guards stormed into his cell to shut him up. They broke almost every one of his ribs, punctured his lung, smashed his spleen and left him to die.

Several of the guards were later charged with murder, but the trial was held in their own small hometown where almost everyone works for, or has connection with, the five prisons which ring the town. The foreman of the jury was former prison officer. The guards were all acquitted.

Meanwhile, the warden who was in charge of the prison at the time of the killing – the same man who changed the policy on videoing – has been promoted. He’s now the man in charge of all the Florida prisons.

How could anyone excuse – still less condone – such behaviour? The few prison guards who would talk to us have a siege mentality. They see themselves outnumbered, surrounded by dangerous, violent criminals, so they back each other up, no matter what.

I asked one serving officer what happened if colleagues beat up an inmate. ‘We cover up. Because we’re the good guys.’

No one should doubt that the vast majority of U.S. prison officers are decent individuals doing their best in difficult circumstances. But when horrific abuse by the few goes unreported and uninvestigated, it solidifies into a general climate of acceptance among the many.

At the same time the overall hardening of attitudes in modern-day America has meant the notion of rehabilitation has been almost lost. The focus is entirely on punishment – even loss of liberty is not seen as punishment enough. Being on the restraint devices and the chemical sprays.

Since we finished filming for the programme in January, I’ve stayed in contact with various prisoners’ rights groups and the families of many of the victims. Every single day come more e-mails full of fresh horror stories. In the past weeks, two more prisoners have died, in Alabama and Ohio. One man was pepper sprayed, the other tasered.

Then, three weeks ago, reports emerged of 20 hours of video material from Guantanamo Bay showing prisoners being stripped, beaten and pepper sprayed. One of those affected is Omar Deghayes, one of the seven British residents still being held there.

His lawyer says Deghayes is now permanently blind in one eye. American military investigators have reviewed the tapes and apparently found ‘no evidence of systematic abuse.’

But then, as one of the prison reformers we met on our journey across the U.S. told me: ‘We’ve become immune to the abuse. The brutality has become customary.’

So far, the U.S. government is refusing to release these Guantanamo tapes. If they are ever made public – or leaked – I suspect the images will be very familiar.

Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo – or even Texas. The prisoners and all guards may vary, but the abuse is still too familiar. And much is it is taking place in America’s own backyard.

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Deborah Davies is a reporter for Channel 4 Dispatches. Her investigation, Torture: America’s Brutal Prisons, was shown on Wednesday, March 2, at 11.05pm.

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Information Clearing House has no affiliation whatsoever with the originator of this article nor is Information Clearing House endorsed or sponsored by the originator.)
Americas Brutal Prison

Vietnam war:
Torture in Vietnam
It’s no secret that torture was used in the Vietnam War – by both sides. However, I’m interested here in the American side of the equation, to wit, when US personnel were involved or bore witness. It’s commonly assumed torture on ‘our’ side of the conflict could be laid at the door of our South Vietnamese allies, both the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) and the national police. Indeed, there were many accounts of ARVN soldiers or police kicking or punching Vietcong (VC) prisoners who were tightly bound as well as civilian VC suspects. There were also reports of waterboarding, a harsh technique for extracting information, now widely known since 9/11.

It was a model soldier, Master Sgt Donald Duncan, who first blew the lid publically on the widespread use of torture in Vietnam. A highly decorated Green Beret sent to Vietnam in ’65, Sgt Duncan turned down a field commission a year later and left the Army over his profound opposition to the mission and how it was being carried out. Part of it was his revulsion as a soldier to the torture he witnessed and the complicity of US forces in handing over civilians suspected of VC sympathy to the ARVN. Duncan published a major firsthand exposé in a radical magazine and testified in ‘67 at the Copenhagen session of the International War Crimes Tribunal organized by Lord Bertrand Russell as to what he saw and heard in Vietnam. The torture issue was out in the open.

US troops were not only accomplices in the use of torture, but active participants as well. A former medical officer told me how he witnessed wounded VC being tortured over his objections. A combat unit back from the field brought a couple of seriously wounded enemy soldiers to his aid tent. He and his staff patched them up so they could be quickly medevaced to a field hospital for urgent medical care if they were to survive for standard post-action interrogation. The combat personnel, however, would not wait and began immediate interrogation through an interpreter before the trail went cold. The objections of the military doc, the regimental surgeon himself, were overruled on the basis the military situation took precedence. The method of ‘persuasion’ was poking the prisoners’ wounds, causing great pain if answers weren’t forthcoming on their unit’s strength, deployment, and equipment. Other times, patrols in the field conducted ad hoc interrogations under threat of torture, trying to learn whereabouts of the elusive enemy.


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Field interrogation by knife*

By far though, the most common form of torture employed by US forces was euphemistically called the “Bell telephone hour,” a reference to the instrument used as well as to a familiar stateside music program sponsored by the Bell Telephone Company. This technique involved using a standard military field telephone to deliver a painful shock to the person under interrogation when cooperation was withheld. Military Intelligence (MI), a branch of the Army, was principally responsible for interrogating captured enemy soldiers as well as civilians suspected of being VC. The use of the field phone to extract information was routine for MI’s trained interrogators.

Although Jeff served in Vietnam with the Army Security Agency (ASA), a communications intelligence outfit, he would have been aware of MI and their procedures. Apropos, he located Peter Martinsen, a former MI interrogator in Vietnam, and interviewed him for Vietnam GI (VGI) so that GI readers would know what was going on in those MI tents. A little background on Peter Martinsen: he had also testified before the Russell Tribunal on war crimes, an unofficial body of distinguished international public intellectuals and members of the arts, at the Copenhagen session in ‘67. A member of the tribunal wrote that they were “overwhelmed” by Martinsen’s testimony. A young man, son of a psychology professor, he was demoralized by what he had been required to do, including beating Vietnamese civilians under interrogation; witnessing torture daily; and having caused the death of a teenage girl by forcing her out of hiding with a smoke bomb. Needless to say, Martinsen had turned against the war, deeply upset by what he’d been involved in.

Brother Jeff caught up with Peter in the States. He had been with the 541st Military Intelligence, the MI detachment with the 11th Armored Cav Regiment, which operated in Long Khanh Province about 50 miles east of Saigon. Like Jeff, he was a Vietnamese linguist, but an interrogator as well. Jeff asked him how he tried to get information out of the people rounded up, including women and children. Martinsen replied:

Force was used a lot, and like … you could beat them with your open hand and not leave a mark on them. Electrical torture with a field phone … it really gives a nasty shock. You know how bad it is, and you can imagine being shocked for three or four hours by one of those things. That was pretty common.

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Standard torture device of military interrogators

To convert the above EA312 military phone to an electrotorture device, the interrogator merely had to attach a ground wire and a hot wire to the terminal block at the top of the instrument at one end, and to sensitive parts of the prisoner’s body at the other end. Then each turn of the crank on the side (which would normally cause a phone to ring elsewhere), delivered a short but powerful shock to the individual being asked questions.

Peter Martinsen concluded saying, “This is a dirty war, and there’s no reason on earth for us to be there.” At the time of his interview with VGI in early ’68, Martinsen was 23. A few years later he committed suicide.

*Photo credit Joseph Carey
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Abu Ghraib, Iraq(Americans occupying Iraq and running a prison where they torture the Iraqis):
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Guantanamo Bay, Cuba(American prison in Cuba):
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wiki wrote:Torture
See also: Enhanced interrogation

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) inspected the camp in June 2004. In a confidential report issued in July 2004 and leaked to The New York Times in November 2004, Red Cross inspectors accused the U.S. military of using "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions" against prisoners. The inspectors concluded that "the construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture." The United States Government reportedly rejected the Red Cross findings at the time.[118][119][120]

On 30 November 2004, The New York Times published excerpts from an internal memo leaked from the U.S. administration,[118] referring to a report from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The ICRC reports of several activities that, it said, were "tantamount to torture": exposure to loud noise or music, prolonged extreme temperatures, or beatings. It also reported that a Behavioral Science Consultation Team (BSCT), also called 'Biscuit,' and military physicians communicated confidential medical information to the interrogation teams (weaknesses, phobias, etc.), resulting in the prisoners losing confidence in their medical care.

The ICRC's access to the base was conditioned, as is normal for ICRC humanitarian operations, on the confidentiality of their report. Following leaking of the U.S. memo, some in the ICRC wanted to make their report public or confront the U.S. administration. The newspaper said the administration and the Pentagon had seen the ICRC report in July 2004 but rejected its findings.[121][119] The story was originally reported in several newspapers, including The Guardian,[122] and the ICRC reacted to the article when the report was leaked in May.[120]
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This is apart from the general colonialism of the European countries inflicted on non-European countries(including Bhaarath).
Vayutuvan
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

Bitter truth
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Sexual Freedom
Sexual freedom is the fundamental human right of all individuals to develop and express their unique sexuality. It lies at the heart of the promise of human dignity, self-determination, and equality embodied in both the U.S. Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Human Rights are interdependent, intersectional, inalienable rights that are the birthright of all human beings, regardless of geography, nationality or identity. Human rights include economic rights, environmental rights, sexual rights, cultural rights, social rights, political rights, developmental rights and civil rights.

The background of sexual freedoms comes from European history, not from Indian history
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tammy-nel ... 58910.html
The Woodhull Foundation is named for Victoria Woodhull, a feminist from the 19th century, who fought for sexual freedom for women at a time of sexism and Victorian prudence. Women who committed adultery in the mid-1800s were put in prison, orgasms were for men alone and sex was rarely talked about, much less by a woman in public. Victoria Woodhull lectured both men and women against the sexual double standard for women. She preached "Free Love," which encouraged women to marry for love, and helped women increase their awareness of divorce and their own sexual rights.
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:An essay worth reading:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ch/375743/
Wo you have a knack of finding such stuff..
For most of American history, it has been national policy to plunder the capital accumulated by black people—social or otherwise. It began with the prohibition against reading, proceeded to separate and wholly unequal schools, and continues to this very day in our tacit acceptance of segregation. When building capital, it helps to know the right people. One aim of American policy, historically, has been to insure that the “right people” are rarely black. Segregation then ensures that these rare exceptions are spread thin, and that the rest of us have no access to other “right people.”
Cosmopolitanism, openness to other cultures, openness to education did not make the Cherokee pliant to American power; it gave them tools to resist. Realizing this, the United States dropped the veneer of “culture” and “civilization” and resorted to “Indian Removal,” or The Trail of Tears. The plunder was celebrated in a popular song:

All I want in this creation
Is a pretty little wife and a big plantation
Away up yonder in the Cherokee nation.

The Native Americans of this period found that America’s talk of trading culture for rights was just a cover.
RamaY
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote: The background of sexual freedoms comes from European history, not from Indian history
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tammy-nel ... 58910.html
The Woodhull Foundation is named for Victoria Woodhull, a feminist from the 19th century, who fought for sexual freedom for women at a time of sexism and Victorian prudence. Women who committed adultery in the mid-1800s were put in prison, orgasms were for men alone and sex was rarely talked about, much less by a woman in public. Victoria Woodhull lectured both men and women against the sexual double standard for women. She preached "Free Love," which encouraged women to marry for love, and helped women increase their awareness of divorce and their own sexual rights.
This was the main reason behind Victorian Britain banning Devadasi system in Bharat; because women education was frowned upon and devadasis (some times, some cases) living in open marriage is not moral per British standards.

Later the real intention was obscured as women empowerment.

Fast forward 100Yrs, now the same west demands Indian society to become civilized again and encourage Women education, women sexuality, open marriages/divorces etc...
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

The topic of female sexual freedom brought up the following question. Let me ask first and make the link with sexuality later.

There is one area where there is a clear difference between western society and traditional Indian society. This is the question, "What do you as an individual, owe society?"

As per dharma this is very clear. Living you life as per dharma demands that you get married and have children as a necessary part of living life righteously. This children need to be educated with values and other information they need to make dharma following citizens of them. The idea is that the individual owes it to socity to continue to protect society by taking the actions that are needed to preserve and protect society. This is not just about being truthful and avoiding excess anger, greed or arrogance. It is also living life as it should be lived.

Hindu society sees the long term continuation of society beyond one lifetime as important. Your childrens' welfare and that of your grandchildren have also got to be factored into your life. 'In the long tern we are all dead" is not an excuse that is allowed in Hindu dharma. In the long term society must survive with dharmic values. That means that society must survive - and for this having children is essential. You are damaging your society if you deliberately avoid having children.

Funnily enough western society does not ask the individual to help society in any way. Unpon doing a net search I found various answers to this question - usually revolving around the material suggestions of "help the economy" or "pay your taxes" or "be charitable"

But the best exposition that I found was the one in the following link:
What Do We Owe? The Nature of the Relationship
So what how do we define the nature of our relationship to society? And how many benefits have we all enjoyed as a result of our citizenship? Interestingly, our society does not specify to a great degree what we owe in return for the benefits of citizenship. At the very least, it requires us to obey the law, but is simple obedience to the law enough to repay all what we have gained? What, after all, do you call someone who enjoys all the great advantages of a relationship but recognizes the most minimal of obligations? (At this point someone usually mutters, "My ex-spouse").

So I put the question to you? Your society has provided you many benefits, not the least of which is the opportunity to develop your talent and gifts through education. In return, it does not draft you or require you to perform community service. It does not even demand its college graduates to apply their newly-acquired knowledge and skills to the betterment of their communities. Graduates are free to do nothing or to apply those skills for their own gain. To a large degree, our society leaves it to the individual to determine how he or she defines their obligation to the larger society.

So what does the educated citizen owe?
The point is that western society has no long term plan for preserving society. There is no long term model that is thought of as a good society. The only model seems to be that if every individual is happy, healthy and wealthy, society is fine.

But exactly how does individual wealth, health and happiness translate into the health and preservation of society? Individual health, wealth and happiness have been around for too short a time to declare that the society will last forever in this way. In fact I am a sceptic and want to know how assumptions can be made about groups by simply taking the sum of the individuals. In my next post I will make the link between female sexual freedom and the individual's obligation to society.
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