Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2017 10:57

The UK cost/carrier is lower because there are two. The IN will be building only one.The escalated costs of the 40K t IAC-1 is almost equiv to the cost of one UK QE carrier! Therefore,the cost of building a 65K t carrier in India,if work starts around 2020,that too only after IAC-1 has been commissioned,will be not less than $7.0 to 7.5B for a conventionally powered warship .EMALS,N-power,etc, will increase the cost substantially.The carrier will definitely carry the LR SAM,B-8 ,plus CIWS systems.50 aircraft and helos, the total package which will easily cross $12B unless much cheaper Russian aircraft are to serve on the carrier.An NH-90 helo alone costs around $50M a pop,and my earlier costing for both aircraft and helos is a v.reasonable $2.5B. If the F-35 is an option,then each aircraft will cost well over $100M and just 25 of them over $2.%B aircraft alone. The aviation package would then cross $4B! Our track record of building IAC-1, conventionally powered which has seen so many delays does not augur well for constructiong a new design of a much larger and sophistciated vessel.Imagine us building a far more sophisticated carrier N-powered,with EMALS,etc.? Our third carrier should instead be a sister ship of IAC-1,perhaps a little larger with some improvements. This could be commissioned by 2025 if the decision is taken this year. "Let's not bite off more than we can chew".

For $12.%B we would be able to acquire 6 Akula SSGN subs.orn lease or even the entire 6 SSNs planned. These subs expected to be a little smaller than the Arihant,half the size of an Akula,should cost around $2B/sub. The lease of the second Akula is officially reported to be under $2B.Possessing a fleet of new N-subs is a far better choice than just one large carrier at the same price.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Mar 2017 14:52

The UK cost/carrier is lower because there are two. The IN will be building only one.

Where are you getting that from? For starters the labor rate in the UK is likely going to be the highest among the top ship building nations. That aside, why do you think the IN will go through the trouble of designing a 65,000 ton vessel and end up only procuring ONE example of it? What do you think India's economy is going to look like in the 2030-2070 time-frame?

It takes a good amount of time to develop a complicated and extensive large carrier program. As a reference, even with tons of experience on the Nimitz behind then the program funding start to ship launch time for the CVN21/CVN-78/ Ford class was 13 years. Don't expect the IN's 65,000 ton ship with EMALS and a much higher capability taking any less. I see the IN looking into the future and beginning working on its needs NOW rather than being reactive when it may be too late in the day. It really is turning out to be a vessel that will be ready into the 2030 time frame by the looks of it.

The escalated costs of the 40K t IAC-1 is almost equiv to the cost of one UK QE carrier! Therefore,the cost of building a 65K t carrier in India,if work starts around 2020,that too only after IAC-1 has been commissioned,will be not less than $7.0 to 7.5B for a conventionally powered warship he carrier will definitely carry the LR SAM,B-8 ,plus CIWS systems.50 aircraft and helos, the total package which will easily cross $12B unless much cheaper Russian aircraft are to serve on the carrier.

At least we have moved from the carrie costing $12 Billion to the Carrier plus full complement of air wing costing that much. I don't get how you quite did that math but moving on the IAF just paid something like $ 8 Billion for 36 aircraft..Is the $12 Billion for 40-50 aircraft air-wing, a 65,000 ton fitted carrier really that bad of a deal in the 2030 timeframe?

unless much cheaper Russian aircraft are to serve on the carrier.

While your MiG-29PS proposal could be an option we'll know about the IN's interest in the platform if and when their current effort to procure fighter matures. As the incumbent the MiG-29 enjoys certain advantages that the other aircraft do not so they would have to overcome that.

Our third carrier should instead be a sister ship of IAC-1,perhaps a little larger with some improvements. This could be commissioned by 2025 if the decision is taken this year. "Let's not bite off more than we can chew".

I don' think an additional IAC-1 or IAC-2is mutually exclusive decision. The IN probably thinks it requires a multi carrier fleet in the 2030+ timeframe and they'll do well to design one that has the size, capacity and features to support those needs. IAC-2 is for all practical purposes a 2030s vessel given the task at hand so if they decide they need one additional IAC-1 in the interim they could sanction it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Mar 2017 16:24

I wonder if our Scorpene will come with this Sub based AD System

chola · Post by **chola** » 29 Mar 2017 17:31

brar_w wrote:
It takes a good amount of time to develop a complicated and extensive large carrier program. As a reference, even with tons of experience on the Nimitz behind then the program funding start to ship launch time for the CVN21/CVN-78/ Ford class was 13 years. Don't expect the IN's 65,000 ton ship with EMALS and a much higher capability taking any less. I see the IN looking into the future and beginning working on its needs NOW rather than being reactive when it may be too late in the day. It really is turning out to be a vessel that will be ready into the 2030 time

Our third carrier should instead be a sister ship of IAC-1,perhaps a little larger with some improvements. This could be commissioned by 2025 if the decision is taken this year. "Let's not bite off more than we can chew".
I don' think an additional IAC-1 or IAC-2is mutually exclusive decision. The IN probably thinks it requires a multi carrier fleet in the 2030+ timeframe and they'll do well to design one that has the size, capacity and features to support those needs. IAC-2 is for all practical purposes a 2030s vessel given the task at hand so if they decide they need one additional IAC-1 in the interim they could sanction it.

I agree with all your points. The lead time is very long and carrier skills are perishable. The Brits are reporting problem already in finding people to staff the upcoming QE's.

But MaPar is putting a stop to the Vishal (if that report is correct) precisely for the reasons that Philip points out. Money is an issue and we have more immediate needs in subs and frigates.

So what is the compromise to allow the IN to expand its carrier program within the constraints of the MoD? At this point I hope for a second Vikrant but I could see that there is a train of thought developing among the bean-counters - --- and I don't blame them since it is their job -- that carriers are not worth the bang for their bucks. Every delay and cost overrun that the Vikrant suffers will re-inforce this view at MoD and I'm sure also at the IN's surface and sub fleets since will always be competition for resources even among brothers.

I fear we might be asked to sail the next decades with just the Vik'A and hope the Vikrant commissions without any more delay. Maybe, as Singhaji said, a LHD fleet like Japan's is the best we could hope for but even that is not cheap. I most fear an outcome like Brazil or Argentina where decades of proud carrier experience are given up completely because of cost.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2017 18:10

given our threat matrix we need SSK, SSBN, LRMP, ASW helis and SSN far more urgently than carriers.

there are no urgent use cases for carriers in a india-china scenario at present. infact a ASW oriented LHD like Izumo packed with SH60 might actually be more useful to guard our sea lanes from enemy submarines. the air wing of the vikky and vikad should emphasize ASW helos over more Mig29K imo. this will also curtail the Paki sub threat which is their only trump card.

but we need to get ASW helos about 100 first.....deal is hanging fire for a long time now. SH60 would likely be cheaper over NH90 or EC725. Merlin is ruled out due to size not fit for our FFGs. this is one FMS deal I would love to see soon rather than iphone8 longbow apaches

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Mar 2017 20:31

Singha wrote:given our threat matrix we need SSK, SSBN, LRMP, ASW helis and SSN far more urgently than carriers.

there are no urgent use cases for carriers in a india-china scenario at present. infact a ASW oriented LHD like Izumo packed with SH60 might actually be more useful to guard our sea lanes from enemy submarines. the air wing of the vikky and vikad should emphasize ASW helos over more Mig29K imo. this will also curtail the Paki sub threat which is their only trump card.

but we need to get ASW helos about 100 first.....deal is hanging fire for a long g now. SH60 would likely be cheaper over NH90 or EC725. Merlin is ruled out due to size not fit for our FFGs. this is one FMS deal I would love to see soon rather than iphone8 longbow apaches

+100...major assets are m moving about quite nanga punga. Let's hope this is rectified ASAP. Seems like ASW dhruvs are also on the cards, a good sign.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2017 20:36

Brar mentioned the USMC's CV-L which carries F-35s, same swing role I''ve been advocating for our 4 amphibs which will be larger than the Viraat.The Spanish Juan Carlos which OZ is building in modified form is ideal for us.The amphibs air wing can complement the CVs in a crisis.Plus at least two of them will always be available.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Mar 2017 02:27

A new type was inducted into the Navy today. LCU Mark-IV

Expect a regular induction from hereon but GRSE pace is quite disappointing overall.

http://www.janes.com/article/69111/indi ... -mk-iv-lcu

Indian Navy inducts first Mk IV LCU

Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
29 March 2017

The Indian Navy has commissioned the first of eight Mk IV Landing Craft Utility (LCU) vessels designed and manufactured by state-owned shipyard Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE).

...

The platform, which was delivered by GRSE in September 2016, is referred to by the service as INLCU L51.

According to specifications provided by the ministry, the vessel has an overall length of 62.8 m and a breadth of 11 m. Powered by two MTU 16V 4000 M53 diesel engines with a power rating of 1840 kW, the LCU can attain a top speed of 15 kt and a standard range of 1,500 n miles at 12 kt.

The platform has been equipped with a hydraulic bow ramp, and features military lift capacity for 145 tonnes of military equipment in addition to 165 troops, according to a Jane's report from October 2016.

"The ship will also play a key role in carrying out maritime surveillance of Andaman and Nicobar Islands for preventing anti-poaching, illegal fishing, drug trafficking, human trafficking, poaching, and other illegal activities", said the ministry.

"It will also enhance the capabilities of the Andaman and Nicobar Command in humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) operations", it added.

The LCU's main weapon system consist of two 30 mm CRN -91 naval guns manufactured by Ordnance Factory Medak, complemented by an electro-optical fire control system supplied by Bharat Electronics Limited. The vessel has also been equipped with 12.7 mm and 7.62 mm machine guns for point defence

Comparing to Mark-3 LCU; this class has practically double the capability. Its bigger, more powerful and can go farther. Also better armed.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Mar 2017 02:30

A potential candidate for IN? A new INS Viraat perhaps

http://navaltoday.com/2017/03/29/report ... lian-navy/

The UK Ministry of Defence has offered amphibious assault ship HMS Ocean for sale to the Brazilian Navy, the media in the South American country wrote.

The UK Defence Journal first noted the reports which said the price of the helicopter carrier was deemed “reasonable” by Brazilian officials.

Following up on the reports, the publication contacted persons currently aboard HMS Ocean and received a confirmation that rumors of sale do exist while there were no further talks on which navy that could be.

HMS Ocean is the current fleet flagship of the Royal Navy and is set to be decommissioned in 2018, after the Royal Navy’s first Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier enters service.

Commissioned in October 1995, the 202-meter long HMS Ocean replaced HMS Bulwark as fleet flagship in June 2015. In her role as a helicopter carrier and amphibious assault ship, Ocean is designed to deliver troops by helicopter or by landing craft.

The rumors follow a recent Brazilian Navy decision to decommission their only aircraft carrier BNS Sao Paulo (A 12) after it was determined that cost of returning the aircraft carrier to an operational status was too high.

After several attempts to improve the ship’s operational capacity failed in previous years, the navy reasoned that a modernization procedure would necessitate heavy investment without a guarantee of operational improvement.

BNS Sao Paulo, formerly known as Clemencau-class FS Foch, was a conventionally-powered aircraft carrier built for the French Navy in 1959. By acquiring the ship in 2000, Brazil became the only country in South America to operate an aircraft carrier.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Mar 2017 02:55

NPOL LFDS:

chola · Post by **chola** » 31 Mar 2017 01:58

Aditya G wrote:A potential candidate for IN? A new INS Viraat perhaps

http://navaltoday.com/2017/03/29/report ... lian-navy/

The UK Ministry of Defence has offered amphibious assault ship HMS Ocean for sale to the Brazilian Navy, the media in the South American country wrote.

The UK Defence Journal first noted the reports which said the price of the helicopter carrier was deemed “reasonable” by Brazilian officials.

Following up on the reports, the publication contacted persons currently aboard HMS Ocean and received a confirmation that rumors of sale do exist while there were no further talks on which navy that could be.

HMS Ocean is the current fleet flagship of the Royal Navy and is set to be decommissioned in 2018, after the Royal Navy’s first Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier enters service.

Commissioned in October 1995, the 202-meter long HMS Ocean replaced HMS Bulwark as fleet flagship in June 2015. In her role as a helicopter carrier and amphibious assault ship, Ocean is designed to deliver troops by helicopter or by landing craft.

The rumors follow a recent Brazilian Navy decision to decommission their only aircraft carrier BNS Sao Paulo (A 12) after it was determined that cost of returning the aircraft carrier to an operational status was too high.

After several attempts to improve the ship’s operational capacity failed in previous years, the navy reasoned that a modernization procedure would necessitate heavy investment without a guarantee of operational improvement.

BNS Sao Paulo, formerly known as Clemencau-class FS Foch, was a conventionally-powered aircraft carrier built for the French Navy in 1959. By acquiring the ship in 2000, Brazil became the only country in South America to operate an aircraft carrier.

Let's kick Brazil's arse in a bidding war!

Really, this thing just went through a major refit. Far better shape than the Adm Gorshkov we were "gifted" after a $2.4 b extortion job.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 31 Mar 2017 02:51

Glimpse of IN Bear's bomb bay. Shows gravity bombs - confirms bomber capability.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... -142m.html

Another super pic showing deployment of APR-2E:

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Mar 2017 13:49

^^ Those are PLAB Depth Charges on the racks.

On the ground is an APR torpedo http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/521/

Here is the similar British Mk 11 MOD 3 Depth Charge manufactured by OFB http://www.het.org.au/tmbs/newing/12.jpg

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelcontent.aspx?relid=148574

The details of defence equipment Returned for Rectification (RFR) in the last three years is as under:-

Depth Charge MK-11 MoD-3 209

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-wi ... ve-2243925

At 209, the highest number of defects has been reported in the anti-submarine weapon called Depth Charge MK-11 MoD-3

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 31 Mar 2017 20:46

chola wrote: Let's kick Brazil's arse in a bidding war!

Really, this thing just went through a major refit. Far better shape than the Adm Gorshkov we were "gifted" after a $2.4 b extortion job.

It's amphibious capability definitely makes it more versatile than Izumo class.

I think, IN should have look beyond aircraft carrier and large LPD combo. An amphibious flat-top heli carrier with potential/limited VTOL capability is what we really need to police our neighbourhood. We could get handful of these instead of large nuclear powered aircraft carriers which can only be one place at a time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2017 20:53

the hms ocean is a fox pretending to be a wolf. will come with old gear, need a lot of rework and the insufferable british lectures.

if all we want a cheap dal roti dabba to launch a few LST, maybe 6 helos and browbeat the maldives with , look no further than the rotterdam class lpd

great is always the enemy of kaam chalau. and we dont need anything great for this class of vessel. its construction should present no great trouble after the P17/P15/vikrant craft. this is the Magar class MKI and thats all we need and can afford.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 31 Mar 2017 20:57

Past week , DCNS India made lot of sound and noise about contributing to clean ganga fund. They along with Mazgon docks have again approached Navy with repeat order of 3 subs. I think this clean ganga fund is a way to create positive vibes before a formal announcement is made, considering dcns maybe a badnaam entity over the leaks scandal. The repeat order of 3 with AIP has a high probability of coming through so that docks and skill are utilized atleast till 2024 and not to mention force depletion.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2017 20:58

despite its modest 12,000t size and 166m P15ish length, it carries

6 x NH90 size helis
4 LST
90 armoured personnel carriers or 32 main battle tanks
611 marines (I guess in lieu of the IFv/MBT using some modular tiered bedding system)

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 31 Mar 2017 21:02

In Indian context, ability to carry more number of ASW helos makes more sense than having personnel and tanks carrying capacity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2017 21:12

thats another ship - has to be faster than the plodding 12 knot eco/18 knot max of rotterdam . has to be 30 knot sustained to move with FFGs.
thats ships like izumo and hyuga LPH

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 31 Mar 2017 23:04

I don't know if this was posted here...an interesting tweet by Saurav Jha

Guess what, boys & girls, the India-US JWG on Aircraft Carrier tech cooperation (JWGACTC) isn't going well. F-35C or B is not on the cards.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/847415753267486720

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 31 Mar 2017 23:30

^^^^was it ever on cards?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Mar 2017 23:43

Not officially. Only Boeing (US) with its Super Hornet has expressed interest in the Indian navy fighter tender. The next meting for the joint carrier work group is iirc expected to be this summer and that is probably the earliest one can expect a new administration in DC to express its position to this project, given that almost all resources for now and for the next month or two will be focused towards budget activity and confirmations. There is a vacuum in the pentagon when it comes to political appointees at the moment so we wouldn't know what position the Trump administration takes and who implements it until possibly late summer.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 01 Apr 2017 00:55

Singha wrote:thats another ship - has to be faster than the plodding 12 knot eco/18 knot max of rotterdam . has to be 30 knot sustained to move with FFGs.
thats ships like izumo and hyuga LPH

Wouldn't a ship like the Moskova class be better suited for that role rather than a flat top like the Izumo??

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Apr 2017 10:41

ranjan.rao wrote:^^^^was it ever on cards?

No, it is was never officially offered but with two STOBARs, one of which is heavily handicapped with the island and a life in the middle of the flight deck, and the MiG-29K sucking the big one, the F-35B was really the only giod solution.

The Rafale M and Hornet operate off catapults in their respective navies. We don't know if they were cleared for ski-jumps. The Sea Gripen is a paper aircraft.

Unless Parrikhar restarts the Vishal CATOBAR, the only aircraft we can use on our carriers are the Mig-29K and the F-35B. If the tweet is true then we are stuck with the shitty MiG-29 onlee.

You know, if I had my way, I would make HAL use its MKI skillset to make us a SU-33 equivalent. The Russians can go screw themselves if they complain. Better yet, they can go screw the chinis too for the J-15. If they won't put a stop to the J-15 then why do we need be afraid to make our own clone?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2017 11:10

Latest F-35 woes.The helmet in a quick launch almost decapitate the pilot's head.Watch the videos available showing him hit the cockpit canopy. The maze of acquisition paperwork,etc. and huge price will derail any F-35 acquisition for any immediate need.The Rafale and SH would appear to be the two contenders from the West,but 7 years from now,when the birds are needed, will pose a huge Q mark about the obsolescence of the F-18 which is being replaced by the F-35. The Rafale is a gen. later and a far better bet.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 01 Apr 2017 11:13

CATOBAR and Rafale please.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2017 11:17

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Singha wrote:thats another ship - has to be faster than the plodding 12 knot eco/18 knot max of rotterdam . has to be 30 knot sustained to move with FFGs.
thats ships like izumo and hyuga LPH
Wouldn't a ship like the Moskova class be better suited for that role rather than a flat top like the Izumo??

Through decks like izumo permit the option of keeping vstol ac for rolling takeoffs and generally more areas to pack helis in a war situation. The moskva design is a heavily armed no lst version of the rotterdam or haruna class.

If you want cheap rotterdam
If you want capability better to run with hyuga or izumo style ships
If you want iphone then mistral juancarlos or some american design

I would say a mix of 6 rotterdam and 4 hyuga is enough for indian asw and littoral warfare needs. Hyuga as asw lead ships will be useful and potent vs a white hathi 65000t carrier...we could get 3 dogs for the price of 1 hathi

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2017 11:24

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyūga-c ... _destroyer

12 large asw helis, 3 aew , 3 csar the ideal anti sub and fleet control asset.

We need 4 of these to put some fear in cheen ssns and ssk fleet and thats exactly what jmsdf will do given their long and specialized asw in concert with p3 orion.

Get rid of white hathi and invest in pragmatic needs. With barak8 and srsam it will be fine. Radar can be mfstar. Uses same lm2500 engine as vikrant and p17.

30 knot speed to keep pace with speeding task forces and leave chasing ssks in the dust and force ssns to go noisy speed.

I hope someone in IN sees the futility of another qe2 iphone at this stage and runs with hyuga to lock down the increasing sub threat

50 c295 mrmp
10 more poseidon
15 mq4c bams
6 naval radar satellites

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2017 11:28

Juan Carlos ski-jump multi-role amphibs our best choice. The limited but still potent air capability will allow us to deal with lesser crises like Op Cactus,
crisis in IOR island nations dependent upon India for their security like Mauritius and support to the larger carriers in times of major crises with Pak and China. 4 amphibs such as these would always allow us to have 2 at the ready ,plus at least one carrier,giving us 3 flat tops to do the biz. At around 35k t,it should be possibl;e to operate our MIG-29Ks,plus Rafales from the amphib. if the lifts and hangars can accomodate them. STYOVL JSFs of course.
Since heavy 10t+ helos will be aboard,there shouldn't be a probvlem with these types.Of course Sea Gripen and the NLCA if it arrives,will also be able to serve aboard.

HMS Ocean was built on the cheap to merchant marine stds. Not suitable for the IN.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Apr 2017 11:29

Zynda wrote:I don't know if this was posted here...an interesting tweet by Saurav Jha

Guess what, boys & girls, the India-US JWG on Aircraft Carrier tech cooperation (JWGACTC) isn't going well. F-35C or B is not on the cards.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/847415753267486720

This whole US-supplied next-gen carrier tech is out 15+ years out. They are not going to share a new technology that they themselves are just introducing to their forces. Only once they have moved to something superior (Mk.2) or created a downgraded export variant, then countries like India (2nd tier partner status) will get it with conditions attached.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 01 Apr 2017 12:51

This article http://gentleseas.blogspot.in/2015/05/i ... egins.html by Sandeep Unnithan says construction of SSN program was approved in Feb 2015. Been two years, hope we have come up with a design and actual construction will commence soon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2017 13:26

Merchant std is not necessarily bad..merchant ships routinely sail in heavy seas and like civilian jets their duty cycle is far far more than warships

Anyway we can avoid the largest lpd designs and vstol dreams of juan carlos types and go for efficient deadly midsize hyuga asw leader ships. Jmsdf really knows how to fight the ssn threat...it was their role in cold war also..the spanish have no real clue and no blue water ambitions....only helis needed no jsf

When our ships arw ready so will the hal imrh...we can likely get 1 hull made in japan and fit mission eqpt in kochi

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Apr 2017 14:26

Singha, the flat deck is the biggest asset of ships of this type as the air wing is the weapon by it self. Therefore, IMO, we should have a common design that can fulfill both the functions. Only the role of the individual ships will be different. As specified by the configuration of the airwing.

So we can have 6 ships of a same class that follows the Juan Carlos design philosophy and have 2 assigned sea control functions and 4 amphibian support functions.Or any other combinations as desired.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2017 15:58

Both mistral and juan carlos designs are crippled to 20 knots by having lst welldecks and parking areas inside.

Its better we have some cheap rotterdamish ships for our role.

Hyuga and izumo are fast 30.knot asw lead ships with no baggage for land mission. This is what we need for ssn ssk threat...which is biggest threat bar none

We have no use case for providing vstol air support over land. Let iac1 and iac2 do that supported by sea-lch from the rotterdamish ships or on occasions the asw lead ships

Let us get both roti and naan separately rather than attempt a hybrid that only enriches the euros and uncle and serves their special needs

Nobody can go.hunting enemy subs with lumbering dabbas like juan carlos or mistral

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Apr 2017 16:17

For cheap checkout the Makassar Class LPD.

Clicky

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Apr 2017 16:44

Hmm intriguing. But not relevant to our situation. We need ships that are larger and faster. These ships at under 10 k are not for our needs. May be can be operated by coast gard as off shore patrol helicopter carrier's. The Navy needs flat tops. Singha wants 2 separate designs and I want a single design that is differentiated by the air group.

I say that let both the roles be met by 30 knot ships.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Apr 2017 17:17

The Vishal is not yet dead! But no unified vision on it from MoD and the Navy. It seems the IN needs to convince the MoD and MaPar first.

For something with a lead time as long as a carrier, a grand vision is needed with support from everyone aboard so things could get started.

Look at the PRC's flattop program. It took a rotting hulk from Ukraine, converted it all on its own to build industrial capacity and is now ready to launch a second 65,000-ton STOBAR next month, has commenced the building of a 40,000-ton LHD and, worse of all, has already been building their CATOBAR carrier in Shanghai since 2015.

All this with a publicly stated grand vision of six or more CVs and at least four LHDs.

Meanwhile, our Navy must go hat-in-hand to convince MoD of its vision for a CATOBAR. But at least, there is still hope.

Interview with Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 664481.ece

As for the IAC-II [second indigenous aircraft carrier], we are taking up the case with the ministry for which we will get an approval sooner than later. We are looking at a CATOBAR aircraft carrier above 65,000 tonnes and with EMALS and an advanced air strip.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Apr 2017 17:18

Philip wrote:Juan Carlos ski-jump multi-role amphibs our best choice. The limited but still potent air capability will allow us to deal with lesser crises like Op Cactus,

At around 35k t,it should be possibl;e to operate our MIG-29Ks,plus Rafales from the amphib. if the lifts and hangars can accomodate them. STYOVL JSFs of course

Its not. The Juan Carlos is 26k tons and its designed for a STOVL aircraft not a STOBAR one. The roof of the rear well deck does not extend upto the flight deck.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Apr 2017 17:32

chola wrote:Look at the PRC's flattop program. It took a rotting hulk from Ukraine, converted it all on its own to build industrial capacity and is now ready to launch a second 65,000-ton STOBAR next month, has commenced the building of a 40,000-ton LHD and, worse of all, has already been building their CATOBAR carrier in Shanghai since 2015.

All this with a publicly stated grand vision of six or more CVs and at least four LHDs.

Precisely. I'd say we have less than a decade before the first PLAN CBG sortie west of the Malacca possibly including a port call at Gwadar or Karachi (with the next at Djibouti).

And while IN SSNs/SSKs will be deployed to counter it, they're better suited for ambushes at choke-points. The IN surface fleet will still need air cover, especially if the PLAN battlegroup is already deployed to the IOR when the balloon goes up.

With the IAC-2 still a paper project, we need a follow-on to the Vikrant ordered right away.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Apr 2017 17:39

First China-built carrier on target for April 23 launch

The fit-out will continue for some time before the 70,000-tonne pride of the navy is commissioned

China’s defence ministry has confirmed that the country’s first locally built aircraft carrier has entered its final stage of construction before the hull is launched, which media reports suggest could be as early as April 23, the founding anniversary of the navy.

“China’s first home-built aircraft carrier is now being fitted out, everything is going very smoothly,” defence ministry spokesman Wu Qian said on Thursday when asked about the carrier’s upcoming launch.

“Regarding the news [about wether the ship will be launched in time for the navy’s anniversary] I believe you won’t have to wait too long.”
No advanced jet launch system for China’s third aircraft carrier, experts say

Earlier this week, mainland media reported that the carrier, temporarily named the Type 001A, would be launched on April 23, the 68th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Liberation Army Navy.

Citing sources close to the navy, the South China Morning Post earlier this week reported that President Xi Jinping might attend the launch.

The new carrier will be similar to the Liaoning, China’s first carrier which was refurbished from the half-completed carrier Varyag that Beijing bought from Ukraine in 1998. It will also be equipped with a ski-jump take-off ramp.

However, Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie said the layout, equipment and overall operational concept of the Type 001A would be more advanced and functional than the Liaoning.

According to Li, certain weapons were excluded from the Type 001A platform to allow the ship to park more J-15 fighter jets. The hangar was also being expanded to allow the new carrier to carry between six and eight more J-15s than the Liaoning.

“The ongoing fit-out is preliminary to the carrier’s launch. Other follow-up work will be carried out after the giant ship enters the water,” Li said.
“It’s a complicated and huge project to move such a huge hull from land to sea.

“Many key weapons and pipelines will be installed after the launch, to prevent the equipment from being damaged while the ship is being moved.”

Compared with the Liaoning, the Type 001A could carry more helicopters and fixed-wing early-warning aircraft, Li said. The country’s most advanced S-band radars and four batteries of HQ-10 short-range air defence missiles with 24 tubes each would also deployed on the new ship, Li said.

The HQ-10 missile system is mounted on the navy’s most advanced Type 052D destroyers and Type 056 frigates, while the S-band radar system is capable of covering a 360-degree search field to scout dozens of targets in the air and at sea.