Bharat Rakshak

ASPuar wrote:http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... es/592253/

Companies can now set up medical colleges
New Delhi In a move to enable corporates in the business of healthcare provide end-to-end services, the government has removed the bar on entry of companies into the area of medical education directly.

This is great. Until now, all the politicians cornered the medical colleges and are charging 50L donation while giving shitty education. Hopefully, this will reduce the fees or at least quality of graduates will improve.

Recent trend among the uber rich doctors is to send their wards to Singapore for medical degree, at least this will help money stay within India.

Bill to allow foreign varsities faces opposition from Cong

...
The main causes of opposition to the bill within Congress is the lack of any regulation on the admission process and the level of fees that can be charged. Additionally, there is objection to the fact that these institutions will not be required to make provisions for reservations. While the charge is being led by Kapil Sibal baiters, the concerns raised will find traction among others in Congress as well.

...
...

^^^

Can't really blame the local players for wanting a level playing field. Perhaps the bill can be amended to require that the foreign entrants meet regulatory burdens like reservations and limits on tuition fees over a number of years. Don't see how the bill can pass in its present form given how many politicians run colleges and universities.

And the bill seems to be silent on regulating the content and type of courses that universities will be allowed to sell. Don't think we need the likes of Columbia peddling their Sauth Asia social studies snake oil in India.

milindc wrote:
Recent trend among the uber rich doctors is to send their wards to Singapore for medical degree, at least this will help money stay within India.

A far cry from the days (in the 60s and 70s), when kids from Malaysia and Singapore used to come to India for education!

Maybe I'm being short-sighted here but I can't visualize any scenario where allowing foreign universities to set up shop here ends up proving detrimental to national security or stability in the future.

Oops, sorry I forgot about this thread. Education along with Media are outright two institutions that help form the citizens that every country needs. We are at this junction of the history where the East is rising - there is global shift in economy. Countries can seize this moment to put its own best out there and let it to compete and evolve in the global arena. Allowing "foreign" universities in will help mold the citizens more the way those universities desire - right from the attitude of commercializing education. Looking at India, we know how commercialized it is anyway, do we need more from outside?

Scrap JEE for common test, Sibal signals to IITs

The human resource development ministry has asked a panel of IIT directors to consider scrapping the four-decade old joint entrance examination and replacing it with a general aptitude test.

The panel of directors, headed by IIT Kharagpur chief Damodar Acharya, was set up by HRD minister Kapil Sibal last month to examine possible JEE reforms.

But under the panel’s terms of reference the directors have been asked to specifically focus on whether the IIT-JEE can be buried altogether, along with other national and state engineering entrance examinations, The Telegraph has learnt.

Bade, you should know that just like most of Sibal saab's ideas get dumped in the vaunted cooum nadhikarai, after the sensationalism part is wound down, this will also die. There is too much baggage that no sensible IIT Director will take it lying down to scrap jee, least of all from Sibal saab, no disrespect intended. We just now have the embers of the pay commission saga slowly healing. Furriner entry burns a bigger hole in the h&d stakes that there is going to be some compromise on "autonomy" issues sooner than later. There may be acceptance to "strengthen" jee with other "metrics", but the system is going nowhere, not any time soon. Despite all the whinefests about coaching instis and what not....

Telegraph seems to be hyperactive on edu matters, they seem to be the first to pick up any morsel or tidbit of info that gets filtered through. In short, a high-pass filter of humongous proportions, just like toilet paper is on pol n furrin affairs matters.

Article in NYT about India's education system:
Indian Students Wield Tests for College Spots

India has one of the world’s youngest populations, often called its “demographic dividend,” yet as the middle class has steadily grown, so has the cutthroat competition for the limited slots in the country’s system of higher education.

Education presents such a stubborn problem, especially access to quality education, that experts warn that the future advantages of India’s youthful population could become a disadvantage if the government cannot improve the system rapidly enough to provide more students a chance at college. Of the 186 million students in India, only 12.4 percent are enrolled in higher education, one of the lowest ratios in the world.

Read the comments section - it is very interesting. Lotsa desis and ABCDs commenting and lamenting there. While many of the criticisms are valid, I can't understand the notion amongst some of the Indian Americans that makes them believe 'India will not change onlee, we are too bad onlee' and 'Indian edu system sux, thank God I am here' etc - didn't they grind their teeth in India's hyper competitive setting before sailing to massaland? That must have helped them somewhere?

Gurulog, what do you think?

SwamyG wrote:Talking about Phds and top notch schools itiyadi in desh. How many of you know Chennai Mathematical Institute? I know a person who went through this school, when it was totally unknown. He did is BSc, and then came to Unkilland for his masters, Phd and work. IIRC he was in their very first batch.

Are you kidding? CMI is the top-most institute for mathematics in India and has an entrance exam more rigorous than ISI B.Stat/JEE/AIIMS/(name your favourite ball busting exam here). IMO team members and those selected for IMO camp are the only ones who get in free, rest have to fight it out.

The problem in India is not the quality of education but the lack of quality education in large enough quantity.

I dont see any issues with furrin univs. moving to India as long as some basic regulations are enforced and the likes of University of North Boonyville are not allowed but lets not claim the "competition" is unwelcome. If anything it will force the private univs. in India to pull up their socks.

And why this worry about students having to spend 40L on education and earning 6L onlee? If they can afford it, let them. If they cant and there are not enough customers, the furrin univ. will close and leave anyways - Large furrin universities esp. in massa are run like corporations incld. state ones. I don't see the need to make the judgement for them (apart from ensuring they adhere to GoI regulations)...neither for the univ. or for the student. And for someone who can afford a super-expensive education in India, they can afford the same in massa. Hence, why not retain some of their hard-earned money in India instead of all of it going to massa?

A good side effect is a further incentive for types like moi to move back quicker The flow has already started in industry R&D by likes to IBM, MSR etc. but this will speed it up.

The problem in India is not the quality of education but the lack of quality education in large enough quantity.

So, how is phoren universities going to help?

SwamyG wrote:

The problem in India is not the quality of education but the lack of quality education in large enough quantity.

So, how is phoren universities going to help?

Letting in good quality established phoren universities who have the moolah to set up their infra and have faculty of solid reputation/experience will help, such as: Calyampudi Murugan Unnikrishnan, Mahadeshwara Illango Tekliwala etc. If this opportunity is used to get 3rd rate universities in, then it will flop or even worse, create a whole new breed of crap universities (except they will now be imported and not home-grown).

And why this worry about students having to spend 40L on education and earning 6L onlee?

Hakim-Bose,
There are far-reaching economic consequences of spending 40 lakhs for an education and only earning 6 lakhs. One, it will lead to higher attrition in industry in India what with people trying to jump ships for a few lakhs more. This will increase salary expenses for companies and guess who will pay ultimately for this. Yes, its the mango abdul who will be forced to pay more for the same product(s). It will also lead to loss of export competitiveness of Indian industry. Two, imagine a newly minted engineer, who has paid 40 lakhs for his degree and who now joins the sales organization of his company. Imagine that the guys in these companies are all corrupt and are scamming of money from public contracts. What do you think a 40 lakh degree-walla engineer will do. My guess is that he too will join in the scam since he a large education loan to pay off. It is my hunch that a large part of CDO/Derivatives mess that burst last year were caused by debt-ridden young investment bankers, hungry to make bonuses and pay off their debt in as little time as possible. My personal feeling is that expensive education, that requires huge loans, is a means of enslaving the workforce to do things the way crooked upper management wants it to do. This IMVHO is not wise and warranted. A last point is that all these years we had nearly free education, especially higher education that, to put it frankly, did not help India much. Rather it was a subsidy that India gave to the US economy, what with India trained people working there. Now that after many years the Indian economy has some hopes of being a world beater why are we trying to strangulate it by increasing the cost of participating in it, by promoting expensive education?

sugriva wrote: There are far-reaching economic consequences of spending 40 lakhs for an education and only earning 6 lakhs.

It is a consumer-driven market. If people see that spending 40 lakhs gets them a 6 lakh job, they wont spend 40 lakhs in droves - a few light bulbs will but not in numbers significant enough. Thats why I said we dont need to make that judgement for the students - They are smart enough to make it themselves. Moreover, the young generation in India today is a much more informed and pragmatic generation which doesnt believe the glossy brochures about how massa is the land of M&H onlee and has streets paved with gold. They know what they are getting into and where the opportunities lie, for increasing their self-worth and advancing their goals. The furrin universities have to compete too with indig. universities. Just because the furriners are coming doesn't mean the Indian ones will be closing shop - education is a very lucrative sector. The furrin universities would be foolish to make the naive assumption that their "prestige" is enough to charge whatever they want. They might have made that assumption in the 1960s but definitely it is not valid since the 1990s. One good impact of furrin universities that can happen is that more students can get exposed to good post-graduate education (and this includes the teaching methods and infra) without leaving India. Like I said, there is a big bunch of students who can afford to pay for education in massa and will wing it there and join their workforce. Isn't it better to have some of them actually spend that money in India (from which desi economy gets a cut) and join the Indian workforce.

sugriva wrote: One, it will lead to higher attrition in industry in India what with people trying to jump ships for a few lakhs more. This will increase salary expenses for companies and guess who will pay ultimately for this. Yes, its the mango abdul who will be forced to pay more for the same product(s). It will also lead to loss of export competitiveness of Indian industry.

I dont think it will really affect salary levels in India drastically at all. When you are a newbie going into the job market, you are hardly in a position to tell a company that since I spend XX lakhs, you need to give me a salary of YY lakhs otherwise I wont work. If they do that, any company will tell them to go take a hike. The demand for rise in salary will be due to greater expectations of comfort and lifestyle more geared towards spending, not due to any education costs from a few furrin universities.

sugriva wrote: Two, imagine a newly minted engineer, who has paid 40 lakhs for his degree and who now joins the sales organization of his company. Imagine that the guys in these companies are all corrupt and are scamming of money from public contracts. What do you think a 40 lakh degree-walla engineer will do. My guess is that he too will join in the scam since he a large education loan to pay off.

If he is corrupt, he will join in regardless. There are tons of undergraduates from MIT/Stanford/Yale/Harbird in many disciplines who spend over $100K for their undergraduate studies - haven't heard of any large scale instance of those alumni committing wanton fraud.

sugriva wrote: It is my hunch that a large part of CDO/Derivatives mess that burst last year were caused by debt-ridden young investment bankers, hungry to make bonuses and pay off their debt in as little time as possible.

The young Yum Bee Aye guns are just convenient bakras - thats all. The actual strings are pulled by white-haired veterans sipping their G&T and chuckling at how they took the world for a ride. Moreover, the whole mess has nothing to do with paying off loans - it has everything to do with greed for lining one's own pockets. Doctors have much larger education loans to pay off...with that logic they would be reaching heights of corruption by now.

sugriva wrote: Now that after many years the Indian economy has some hopes of being a world beater why are we trying to strangulate it by increasing the cost of participating in it, by promoting expensive education?

Unfortunately our post-graduate education in India can hardly be termed world beating in terms of impact. What it needs is a swift kick in the musharraf which the furrin participation (albeit rigorously enforced) can provide. What good furrin univs. will also bring is their top-grade contacts and collaborations with other research institutions and industry all over the world - this is the greatest strength of the good massa universities and currently is pretty much minimal in India, even in the Eye Eye Teas. For a graduate student, you cannot beat this type of exposure to inspire that spark which makes the difference between creating your own technology and becoming the backoffice maintaining someone else's technology. Just like Khan has used the Indian subsidy, now its the time for India to shrewdly use the Khan's strengths to build its own R&D muscle - we have the numbers, we have the smart people, what is needed are the opportunities and the nurturing.

Bose-saar, you have explained the need for expansion of higher education with local assets and imported assets quite well. Needless to say, the competition will also increase the salaries of faculty in Indian Universities.

Stan-saar, as I have said many times before IITs have dug a hole for themselves in the long run, by trying to sell themselves as a uber-elite UG college for Engg. Now, they are trying to desperately change that and time will tell. Fifty years is a long time and they have largely been ineffective as research centers of excellence due to a different focus. JEE itself is the false god in this whole process of seeking the holy grail of excellence.

Bade wrote: Stan, as I have said many times before IITs have dug a hole for themselves in the long run, by trying to sell themselves as a uber-elite UG college for Engg. Now, they are trying to desperately change that and time will tell. Fifty years is a long time and they have largely been ineffective as research centers of excellence due to a different focus. JEE itself is the false god in this whole process of seeking the holy grail of excellence.

Bade boss, I agree that jee is one hell-hole going nowhere. The solution to fixing the iit system does not lie in throwing away something that exists because "it is crap." Unfortunately, if one has to throw away something, a better alternative needs to exist. And nowhere in India do we see a better alternative for ug selection. If jee is crap, all the cet's are even more uber-crap. The much criticized and the much shady jee is still the best, despite the issues surrounding the scheme. We can keep going around in circles around this basic premise. But to me what this means is that it says much about India, in general. And therein lies the pity. Sibal saab seems to be itching to fix the mess that is Indian education without really understanding what ails it. And if one has to go around fixing stuff, one has to start with basics. Unfortunately, thats easily said than done.

There is recognition that jee nonsense needs to be fixed, but throwing it away as sibal saab wants is something no die-hard criticizer of jee inside the iit system would really do. Thats just how i sense things will go. At the best, there may be a patchwork of fixes around the jee scheme, at the worst shit will keep going on and on for ever like it is today. Sibal saab's opinion is just that, before him prof. mmj tried many stunts too, and nowhere today we hear about them. IITs are still the way they were before mmj, modulo certain changes that would have happened even without mmj. In a few years, the legacy of sibal saab would be essentially nothing or barely if remembered. Even if he forces stuff like he is keen on. Resistance in the iit system is something that is as big as Prof. Indiresan. A contest between PVI and sibal saab is a no-contest, thats just me.

All said and done it is much easier to create something anew than to transform something well set in one image to something entirely new. Let IITs be, is also ok in my book. We have a new experiment in IISER with new blood and some old turks from the dying Univs who are cheer leading the effort. I specifically see old JU faculty who rebelled against the old system when they were young three decades back playing active roles in the new IISERs with their inter-disciplinary focus amongst all branches of the sciences. This experiment has the potential for more success in the area of research excellence in 20-30 years. I think it should take that long to establish any credibility with hard work and genius. I know places like tifr did that in shorter time-scales and perhaps are faltering now to some extent.

Raja Bose wrote:Letting in good quality established phoren universities who have the moolah to set up their infra and have faculty of solid reputation/experience will help, such as: Calyampudi Murugan Unnikrishnan, Mahadeshwara Illango Tekliwala etc. If this opportunity is used to get 3rd rate universities in, then it will flop or even worse, create a whole new breed of crap universities (except they will now be imported and not home-grown).

If all one needs is 'moolah' we can invite investors to invest and return happy with their rich RoI, no? Why do a prana pratishta for them in the bhoomi, eh?

If all one needs is 'moolah' we can invite investors to invest and return happy with their rich RoI, no? Why do a prana pratishta for them in the bhoomi, eh?

Sure. And then there's the cheeni model, of course. Enter with a JV with a local org that would ostensibly 'learn' the ropes w.r.t. IP and knowledge creation infrastruc and at some point take off on its own.

Sure, it may not get traction with the top univs for now. But over time, is there a substitute to our orgs developing world class knowledge infrastruc on their own? Just wondering is all.

Centre pushing states to double intake in ITIs

The Centre is pushing states to double the intake capacity in industrial training institutes to give a boost to the technical skill base, Labour and Employment Minister M Mallikarjuna Kharge said today.

"We have told the states they can have two shifts in ITIs so that we can produce more skilled people. But one must ensure quality. It would also benefit industries," Kharge told reporters on the sidelines of a function here.

... 21st century is witnessing a huge shift into a single global market, and Indian companies would have to compete not just in domestic markets but also overseas. "In such a competitive environment, there is a need to constantly upgrade the skills and technology of workers to meet the growing challenges," he said.

... "Countries like Korea, Brazil and Singapore are prospering because there is support from industries. Similarly, CII should also encourage industries to increase their participation in skill building," he said.

Two well written articles from the DNA. Apologies if posted.

R Jagannathan - Kapil Sibal's bill will kill the IITs and IIMs

R Vaidyanathan - Should we bail them out?

shaardula wrote:Centre pushing states to double intake in ITIs

The Centre is pushing states to double the intake capacity in industrial training institutes to give a boost to the technical skill base, Labour and Employment Minister M Mallikarjuna Kharge said today.

"We have told the states they can have two shifts in ITIs so that we can produce more skilled people. But one must ensure quality. It would also benefit industries," Kharge told reporters on the sidelines of a function here.

... 21st century is witnessing a huge shift into a single global market, and Indian companies would have to compete not just in domestic markets but also overseas. "In such a competitive environment, there is a need to constantly upgrade the skills and technology of workers to meet the growing challenges," he said.

... "Countries like Korea, Brazil and Singapore are prospering because there is support from industries. Similarly, CII should also encourage industries to increase their participation in skill building," he said.

I would rather increase intake in to our Polytechnic Institutes. Current set of ITIs can be upgraded to Polytechnic colleges. They have a better curriculum AFAIK.

SwamyG wrote: If all one needs is 'moolah' we can invite investors to invest and return happy with their rich RoI, no? Why do a prana pratishta for them in the bhoomi, eh?

What one needs is competition and the research collaborations - moolah will come anyways.

What one needs is competition and the research collaborations - moolah will come anyways

Err. You may need any random thing. But ejjukashun in Yindia has basically been a tool for multiple political goals and objectives in India and lately it has become a money spinning tool as well.

Case in point Tamil Nadu. See, the entire system was geared towards "social engineering" ie, not to make sure that the system is geared towards quality and to maximize spread or anything, but to keep out certain "undesirables" (hint.. aka Tamil Brahmins, who practically would sweep the bulk of the available seats in a free competition despite being a minuscule 0.5% of population). So "lucrative" fields like medicine become a license permit raj system, where supply is limited very strictly (increase supply of doctors, the doctor's wages collapse, ask the AMA folks about it) , especially in PG, where there are multiple levels of "reservation" even within reservation (there they have something called "service" candidates, non service, and within that you have caste and other reservations.

The anti-caste warriors would argue against hereditary occupations. But ask a OBC doctor (they would be the large majority in TN, thanks to all these years of social engg) what he wants his children to become, surprise -- Doctor!. He wants his son/daughter to take over the practice/ whatever. So Dakktur giri has become like Dookan dari. Ergo, capitation fees at every level , reservation at every level, especially in PG , so that if you are an ophtamologist, you can keep it within the "family" and prevent a meritorious interloper from barging in to your party.

So solution.. Make it possible to whoever wants to be come a doctor to become one!. That is what happened with Yingin Earring, with the plethora of colleges now, so not a problem. But problem with Dakktur giri is exactly that of limited supply.

The current license permit quota raj benefits the incumbent folks with political power and other entrenched interests. Once you open it out and make it freely available it loses it cachet.

Remember telephones. Now every man jack in India has one.. Hardly a big deal. But 30 years ago, if you had a telephone at home you were someone of consequence. You had a minister's quota, a police quota, a govt babu quota , a doctor quota, a you nameit what quota, but for an ordinary person, the result was, you pay Rs 3000 and wait 10 years and if lucky you might get a phone. Same thing with ejjukashun today.

Foggedabout Eye Eye Tea and Eye Eye Yum. For a change Bade saar talked some sense and let those poor kids be. Not everyone can go to one of those places (I think naming all those new colleges IITs is terrible. They are brand diluting the the original names. the paanch pyaare.. call the new ones Rajiv Gandhi Institutes or something) . The entire focus should be in widening reach and creating more choices.

vina wrote: Err. You may need any random thing. But ejjukashun in Yindia has basically been a tool for multiple political goals and objectives in India and lately it has become a money spinning tool as well.

That will always be present saar. After all we are SDRE onlee. But for every fat cat who can pay capitation fee or every "backward" fella who sneaks in despite piss-poor grades, we have many who are deserving, capable yet dont get the opportunity to hone them. Some top furrin influx will prove helpful for such folks if not anything, by simply providing some new exposure to better teaching at the post graduate level and research collaborations which in turn will force our own SDRE institutions to raise their own game.

What is needed is ~quality of Eye Eye Teas in a large number - private colleges can fill that given their vast coffers (atleast in infra terms) but right now seem to be mostly content to cater to fat Lalas and their sons.

India need 35,000 more colleges: Sibal
Press Trust of India / New Delhi March 30, 2010, 21:01 IST
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... l/89860/on


Why not allow private investment in higher education? Tamil Nadu has shown a success in developing Engineering studies. I think in a similar way private universities should be allowed. To maintain high quality the present system of quality control needs to be diversified. it is so centralised around Delhi and central govt. Rather there should be regional UGC centres and other quality testing agencies so that the qualities are kept very high but also access to these centres are made easy and the process is transparent not politically nor monitarily motivated.

Better late than never

From today, education becomes a fundamental right

On Thursday — April 1 — India will join a group of few countries in the world, with a historic law making education a fundamental right of every child coming into force.

Making elementary education an entitlement for children in the 6-14 age group, the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009 will directly benefit close to one crore children who do not go to school at present.

In an unprecedented move, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday will address the nation, announcing the operationalisation of the Act.

“Tomorrow [Thursday] is a historic day as the Right to Education Act comes into effect. For the first time, education will become a constitutional right. It is a tryst with destiny in the area of education,” Union Human Resource Development Minister Kapil Sibal told reporters. He said it was the responsibility of all stakeholders to enforce it.

“But to think that we have passed a law and all children will get educated is not right. What we have done is preparing a framework to get quality education. It is for the entire community to contribute and participate in this national endeavour,” he said.

While right to education became active today, we also hear a bad news in Tamil Nadu. Usually TN govt is popular for midday meals but suddenly stopping it for special children who were former child workers is really sad. See their photographs with empty plates in their schools. I hope TN government restores the midday meals to them immediately. This affects more than 20,000 children in special schools for the child labourers.

The news item is in Tamil.
http://www.dinamalar.com/humantrustdeta ... ews_id=237

I hope such children education continues.

A question regarding Mid-Day meal scheme. Was this first introduced in the Socialist Republic of Kerala, by any chance? I have seen this scheme quite well in action during the late 1980s. Most of the schools had special cooks appointed, and provision to stock food items. Infact my cousin who was a teacher (with a socialist mindset) did use to say that even during the late 1980s there used to be kids who used to fall down unconscious because they did not have a good breakfast before coming to school. And for such kids, the Mid-day meals were like manna from the heavens.

^^^
It was a scheme introduced first in TN in the 1960s by the then chief minister Kamaraj, followed by universal adoption throughout the state thanks to MGR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-day_Meal_Scheme
The way I heard it, Kamaraj was travelling on a highway and stopped for a short break and saw some small kids tending to their cows. So he asked one of the kids why he wasn't at school and the kid replied along the lines of, "If I go to school instead of working here, I will not have money to eat lunch and if I'm hungry, I cannot learn anything." Kamaraj saw that the kid had a very valid point and started the noon-meal scheme for this reason.

An English version of the above news in the previous post


Denied meal, hungry students return home
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... txw==&SEO=

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/w ... 601207.stm

A report on education system in Finland. The students there spend the lowest amount of time among developed nations in school, and yet manage to be one of the toppers in Maths and Science. Contrast this our system where the student not only is made to go to school, but then has to spend an inordinate time going to "coaching classes"..........

yeah but perhaps competition for good jobs isnt as severe there ? finland has resources, some industry and nokia and its eco-system....and a population 5.3 mil smaller than bangalore.

even in rich countries, those were population is large and jobs a bit tight tend to flog their
students hard - korea, taiwan, japan all have kamandu style entrance exam schools to
toughen up people for university entrance. once in, they have a easier time and jobs in plum
cos like sony, mitsubishi, honda, samsung, acer et al can be looked forward to.

amir khan has a large population but such a large eco and jobs (during boom era) it could
not only find jobs for locals but absorb so many immigrants.

Umm agree with you of course, but isnt your reasoning more applicable to finding a job?

We flog our 4-16 years old, subject them to coaching classes etc, all so that they may get good grades to get into a "reputable college" or "IIT". It is another story that this "reputed college" may have facilities that are sub par and are only alive because the other colleges are so pathetic that you have no choice. The ones that are good are so expensive as to be out of reach of most normal families. Add to this the complexity of reservations. IMHO, it is all down to lack of decent choices.

I cannot at all fathom why as a nation, in spite of having a vast pool of people who are ready to pay decent money we still do not have a plethora of colleges in plenty that offer an average education (at par with the bottom 50 of the mid tier colleges in US.. so its not as if I am asking the moon here in terms of facilities) at a acceptable price point. In the market all colleges are owned by "non profits" run in background by political big wigs (who are also education ministers btw) ... and whose sole objective is to make money at any cost, typically at the cost of quality.

So what we have is:

A pathetic education due to these "non profits" trying to make money
Non profits really are the worst and really exist only to make money
Students get burdened in order to get into the few colleges that are affordable and decent
Coaching classes having a field day.

In short everyone is happy, except the student and the parents. instead if we threw open the sector to corporates on a per profit basis, and regulate it, the problem should be alleviated by some extent at least.

Finland may be on to something here.... reduce the workload of students, reduce the coaching classes, everyone benefits, except the educational mafia that exists now!

Tanaji wrote: I cannot at all fathom why as a nation, in spite of having a vast pool of people who are ready to pay decent money we still do not have a plethora of colleges in plenty that offer an average education (at par with the bottom 50 of the mid tier colleges in US.. so its not as if I am asking the moon here in terms of facilities) at a acceptable price point.

In short everyone is happy, except the student and the parents. instead if we threw open the sector to corporates on a per profit basis, and regulate it, the problem should be alleviated by some extent at least.

Finland may be on to something here.... reduce the workload of students, reduce the coaching classes, everyone benefits, except the educational mafia that exists now!

I'll say a bit on the on the Finnish student excellence part.

It is interesting that we are somehow able to test all the students in the world and determine that the Finnish were the best. I think one important thing here is to figure out what was this test and can we agree that this one test can correctly rank all the students in the world.

I found a sample paper here: http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/docum ... cetest.pdf
from a WSJ link (http://online.wsj.com/public/article_pr ... 01997.html):

I think education has two parts to it: (i) training your mind on how to think/analyze a problem/system, and (ii) acquiring information needed for the area of interest (e.g. molecular biology, particle physics, Mayan cultural anthropology, economics of the British colonial occupation etc etc.). For the second part, there is no substitute to putting your nose to the grindstone and working long hours. The former, I agree that one can teach the strategy/tactics in a manner that does not kill the student and finish her love of learning. Perhaps the Finnish schools focus on the former, and the 'International rank'em all' test was set up to test those skills.

Found another link with sample PISA questions: http://pisa-sq.acer.edu.au/

It seems like it is designed to test thinking/analyzing skills (certainly, the science part). Even the math questions are that way, i.e. can you interpret and analyze the information in the question (equations and diagrams are provided) and work out a solution.

Tanaji wrote:I cannot at all fathom why as a nation, in spite of having a vast pool of people who are ready to pay decent money we still do not have a plethora of colleges in plenty that offer an average education (at par with the bottom 50 of the mid tier colleges in US.. so its not as if I am asking the moon here in terms of facilities) at a acceptable price point.

Isn't this simply because the supply of educational institutions is artificially restricted through government regulation? Certainly, the demand for education -- primary through tertiary -- in India is high enough that in any relatively free market, supply would rise quickly to match.

pardon me if its OT but TOI reports that management guru Prof. C.K. Prahalad, one of the finest products of Indian Edu system, died today at 69. RIP sir!

vina wrote: The current license permit quota raj benefits the incumbent folks with political power and other entrenched interests. Once you open it out and make it freely available it loses it cachet.
Remember telephones. Now every man jack in India has one.. Hardly a big deal. But 30 years ago, if you had a telephone at home you were someone of consequence. You had a minister's quota, a police quota, a govt babu quota , a doctor quota, a you nameit what quota, but for an ordinary person, the result was, you pay Rs 3000 and wait 10 years and if lucky you might get a phone. Same thing with ejjukashun today.

Well said. Similar was the case with all public sector industries catering to employee all the meritorious candidates onlee. But significant people would not even have decent jobs. The meat and potatoes of the public needs to be engaged. The license permit quota raj is grossly inadequate for that engagement. Looking back a decade, all the people looking for jobs would be preparing every sundry public/govt. job advts. With the competition from the private sector, the employment scenario is completely different these days.
The idea that people who have tons of money are looking to make it in alternate places, because they couldn't make it through merit to iits and iims is nothing to be shy of. It is important that people with tons of money get trained, because the chance of them being entrepreneurial is higher. Because they can afford to make mistakes, that latitude will be lacking in just pure meritorious. Even if 0.1 percent from such a sample make it, it would prove to be economically advantageous to all.
Hence, without any discrimination the meat and potatoes have to be encouraged to lift the average base line, plus hedge bets that some of those with money actually take interest and deliver entrepreneurial spirit. Fetish for merit, beyond reason is also the cause for paralysis. The capacity to absorb screw up needs to be encouraged, which has higher probability with the rich. Please refer to prof.Mullainathan's research about the latitude possessed by the poor to screw up.
Hence, glasnost and perstroika in education sector is badly needed.

Crusader MCI boss in bribe net

New Delhi, April 23: Medical Council of India president Ketan Desai, who appeared to be spearheading a campaign urging doctors to reject cash, gifts, or hospitality from drug companies, has been arrested by the CBI for allegedly accepting a bribe.

School boards ready to kick leather, give canvas a shoo-in

Seen as “environmentally hazardous”, “unhealthy” and an “uncomfortable” vestige of the colonial empire, black, shiny leather shoes may soon be off school campuses across India. Instead, white canvas shoes, so far reserved for Physical Education lessons, may take their place in school uniform sets.

A proposal to the effect, moved by MP and animal rights activist Maneka Gandhi, is learnt to have found favour with the prominent school boards Central Board of School Education (CBSE) and Council for the Indian School Certificate Examination (CISCE).

Most schools in the country — private and government — have been stipulating black leather shoes as mandatory items in school uniform for years now. The People For Animals (PFA), which has been spearheading an anti-leather campaign, says the largest group of leather users are schoolchildren. PFA’s campaigns have already influenced 16 schools in Chennai to stop use of leather shoes, while a similar campaign is on in Chandigarh.

It is interesting that we are somehow able to test all the students in the world and determine that the Finnish were the best

The trouble is with the statement "Finnish" are the best - is to put it, charitably, does not mean much unless there is some kind of test which is recognized universally. (what kind of test? - who took it .. and who finds it credible? etc)

Things like Math, physics Olympiads, Finland does not come out anywhere near the top. (Hungry, Romania, for example have much better record as far as math is concerned, if one goes by the number of people getting prestigious scholarships in top schools in US) Also other measures eg .. How many Fields Medal winner? or Noble Prize winners? or students admitted in top universities?

Anyway, my point is simply the statements like "xyz country has best students" should not be taken as an absolute.