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Vivek K wrote:
Dileep, based on discussions with senior FAA personnel on a previous incident, I don't think you are right. Every equipment is set to some parameters. And there can be problems.
The glide slope is established by sending two beams of RF waves through the path, and a receiver in the plane helps you to keep in the centre of the two beams. The slope always intersect the antenna location. Hence the touchdown point is fixed with respect to the runway. That is a technical fact.
What manual are you referring to? Boeing's manual, Airlines manual? Are we certain that whatever manual you cite has a set speed of 220 kmph for this airport, its elevation and longitudinal gradient?
The landing parameters are from Boeing. The pilot calculates the safe range of speeds considering the local parameters, wind etc. What I meant is that the pilot would know what is the safe speed, and will not land if he is at an unsafe speed. A factor of two doesn't seem like within the limit.
The AGL of the location is never measured by the plane. The altitude is measured by the atmospheric pressure gradient, corrected by the actual pressure at the ground level measured at the runway level only. So, there is no chance of the plane mistaking AGL here. If the 'altimeter' number given out by ATC is correct, the AGL used by the pilots will be correct, and with respect to the runway level only.
Second misconception: The Tower (ATC is the wrong term, since it includes approach and departure as well) WILL NOT advice abort, unless there is a runway obstruction. The pilot is responsible for the plane, and the tower is responsible for the airport.
chaanakya wrote:
Could it be due to the nature of runway?High terrain ....... AGL would give wrong info since runway is far above the ground. MDA must be AGL-Runway MSL as it is plateau. WIth wrong AGL plane would try to speed up as it would think it has not yet reached MDA or DA(H).May be he was approaching glide slope from above and missed it?
Too many questions to answer.
The flight departed one sea level airport and was arriving at another almost sea level airport. The pressure altitude settings would not change significantly for it to matter.
Mangalore airport has an elevation of 337 feet (103 meters). ILS approach was in clear weather with six kilometers visibility.
ATC would have called the QNH setting and the crew would have set the pressure altimeter accordingly. Additionally the aircraft had two radio altimeters giving accurate height information.
First, I think the problem lies with DGCA. Too much cronyism, ineffective leadership, and a typical unwillingness to enforce existing laws. Probably unrelated to the crash, I don't think we need fancy gizmos like PAR. We need simple things other countries take for granted like grooved runways.
Just to nitpick in case someone needs the right terms for search engine research, they were on an ILS approach, so they'd be looking at a decision height (DH) not an MDA as for non precision approaches. With the weather conditions described, this would've been trivial as the landing was probably felt "made".
Dileep wrote:The AGL of the location is never measured by the plane. The altitude is measured by the atmospheric pressure gradient
I'm assuming you mean the primary altimeter displays MSL not AGL. The plane does have a GPWS/radar altimeter which measures the AGL and does the callouts. I doubt it would alarm though since the flaps and gear down likely put it in some kind of landing phase and it seems more like a botched landing.
enqyoob wrote:Last contact between ATC and Flt. 812:
No indication that ATC saw anything unusual in the approach, nothing about landing 2400 feet too far etc. There was no "abort" instruction, no MayDay, etc. etc. NOTHING.
Landing long will almost never result in any communication between tower and crew. That he asked for them to backtrack on the runway indicates he gave them that instruction after they'd missed the last taxiway. There's very little to say to ATC if you suddenly opt to go around/fly missed,
chetak wrote:There is one report that the ATC "gentleman" at Mangalore even instructed the aircraft to backtrack and vacate the runway using delta to the taxi track.
This was after the IX Flt. 812 had crashed and burned, with a huge cloud of dust still very visible at the end of the runway.
That was how much the ATC at Mangalore was AWARE of what was happening!!!
It's not uncommon for initial taxi instructions to be given as the plane is still rolling. I think that just indicates he gave them the instructions when he became aware they were going to miss the last taxiway, and it would be unfair to assume otherwise.
chaanakya wrote:it might get into stall if it is at 500 ft or less and there would not be sufficient height to recover from stall for B737-800. On a tabletop runway it would be a difficult decision. May be one can confirm if it had PAR with VOR/DME as that would have helped.
PAR means the controller gets vertical/horizontal guidance. ILS means the crew does. Nothing beats ILS. I don't think jetliners are really recoverable from a stall with anything less than then thousand feet.
chaanakya wrote:May be he was approaching glide slope from above and missed it?
No sane ATC would ever vector a plane to hit the GS from above. I think we can rule this one out.
neerajb wrote:
rsingh wrote:On 18th May I Indigo flight from Kolkata to Jaipur. Engine on left made terrible noise. Horrified I called official PYT and complained. She assured me that it is normal on plane and everything is ok.
Couple of years back, I was on erstwhile Indian flight, KUL-DEL via BKK. Just as the aircraft commenced the take off roll i.e. when the pilots applied take off power, the left engine made loud noise as if it is going to explode. On questioning the flight attendant, she told me everything is OK and then sent her boss, an old lady, to pacify me.
Compressor stall? He may've been pulling your leg, a military crew takes 30 mins to swap a fighter's engine, I'm assuming it takes a lot longer than an hour to tow the plane to a mx hangar, much less swap an engine... in Bangkok of all places.
Last edited by Kannan on 28 May 2010 09:22, edited 2 times in total.
Singha wrote:if true isnt 400kmph > landing speed of even a Mig21?
Singha ji,
400kmph translates to about 216 odd kts.
NO WAY that they would have come in at this speed.
Flights originating from the gulf are heavier than calculated weights because the hand baggage and the duty free would be heavy. Hand baggage allowance of 7kgs is always exceeded and the ROP passengers make a huge hue and cry if charged for extra baggage. Vote bank politics dictate that the airline lumps it as far as this extra weight is concerned.
At a conservative estimate, each passenger may be over weight in baggage terms by 15 -20 kilos, easily adding two odd tons of extra weight. Further they refuse to check in heavy hand baggage because they often carry large amounts of cash and jewelery.
No wonder such a large crowd gathered at the crash site, kapish?
Kannan, actually the radar altimeter does call out at landing in the new gen airliners. You can hear it in the landing videos.
I was referring to the notion that there was confusion about AGL. That is out of the question. the pilot very well knows where he is, from the instruments, and in this case, given the weather report, visually as well.
reports speak of three crowds - good samaritans who rushed to pull out the bodies and search for any survivor. a more silent and feral crowd who scoured the wreckage and took away anything of value. and a third crowd of the usual onlookers for the tamasha.
vintage india - the good, bad and indifferent exist in parallel dimensions.
chaanakya wrote:it might get into stall if it is at 500 ft or less and there would not be sufficient height to recover from stall for B737-800. On a tabletop runway it would be a difficult decision. May be one can confirm if it had PAR with VOR/DME as that would have helped.
PAR means the controller gets vertical/horizontal guidance. ILS means the crew does. Nothing beats ILS. I don't think jetliners are really recoverable from a stall with anything less than then thousand feet.
I meant if Mangalore has PAR VOR/DME.
ILS are available in many configurations with three categories and CAT-III with many sub categories, ILS at mangalore was CAT-I only. not the best possible solution for tabletop runway.
Boeing 737-800 , minimum recovery height from stall is 500 ft with pilot hitting CL button.Stall warning is given by stick shake not missed by Pilot, but recovery height should be there.Plane will automatically be put in max power available with nose pitched up for best auto recovery. This is decided by computer on some algorithm, made by some computer experts and tried and tested umpteen times and always improved upon.
Kannan wrote:
chaanakya wrote:May be he was approaching glide slope from above and missed it?
No sane ATC would ever vector a plane to hit the GS from above. I think we can rule this one out.
If pilot used reverse thrust then TO GO or missed approach fly away is prohibited by manual of Boeing and not at all prescribed by AFM used for particular airport i.e Mangalore.
So either pilot use RT and intended to stop but could not stop ( contrary to impressions of survivors statement that plane jerked and gathered speed)
or pilot aborted landing and tried to take off.l
Further height of runway from the AGL does play a role in vectoring aircraft for landing in Manual approach with VOR assist but without DME.
One has to adjust MDA and DA(H) accordingly.
There is another version that is full brake is applied and RT reduces lenght requirement by 7% , flare increases TD by 1000 ft, plane still would come to stop with 5000-6000 ft of runway available.
So why did he not stop? Mechanical failure or both pilot sleeping at controls. whether ATC ( rightly termed as The Tower for approach control to airport, both may be in same place which is tower like structure with slanted windows for visibility to Approach controller) was not watching insrtuments and approach for Missed approach.
Flights originating from the gulf are heavier than calculated weights because the hand baggage and the duty free would be heavy. Hand baggage allowance of 7kgs is always exceeded and the ROP passengers make a huge hue and cry if charged for extra baggage. Vote bank politics dictate that the airline lumps it as far as this extra weight is concerned.
From what I have seen in Dubai, the airlines (especially AI express) are very strict about baggage weight. If you plead with them then extra 2-3 kilos might be ignored but most of the passengers from 'gelf' are semi literate blue collar workers who will not raise a hue and cry and are intimidated by TFTA air parasite staff. I have seen airport staff at the check in counters and they will not put up with hue and cry, ROP or not.
Kannan wrote:Compressor stall? He may've been pulling your leg, a military crew takes 30 mins to swap a fighter's engine, I'm assuming it takes a lot longer than an hour to tow the plane to a mx hangar, much less swap an engine... in Bangkok of all places.
I assume one will feel vibrations and banging sound if it is a persistent compressor stall and just a bang if it is a short one. In this case the sound was like the cooling fan blade of Bajaj scooter rubbing against the gill slits and was continueous till the time the pilot eased out on throttle at cruising altitude and there were no vibrations but only the sound. Also pilots reduce the throttle on the stalled engine to clear the compressor but nothing such happened that day.
Usually stopover at BKK used to be 1 hour and the pax remained seated in the aircraft itself. But that day we were escorted to the Lounge and given free snacks vouchers . It was told that the flight will be delayed by 1 hour ( 1 hour stopover + 1 hour delay = 2 hours) but I don't remember the exact delay.
Cheers....
Last edited by neerajb on 28 May 2010 16:10, edited 1 time in total.
Singha wrote:if true isnt 400kmph > landing speed of even a Mig21?
Flights originating from the gulf are heavier than calculated weights because the hand baggage and the duty free would be heavy. Hand baggage allowance of 7kgs is always exceeded and the ROP passengers make a huge hue and cry if charged for extra baggage. Vote bank politics dictate that the airline lumps it as far as this extra weight is concerned.
At a conservative estimate, each passenger may be over weight in baggage terms by 15 -20 kilos, easily adding two odd tons of extra weight. Further they refuse to check in heavy hand baggage because they often carry large amounts of cash and jewelery.
No wonder such a large crowd gathered at the crash site, kapish?
That is a comletely inane comment to make. Air India Express staff are as good/worse as compared to any other airline and overwieght baggage is usually not allowed.
Your estimate of 15-20 kg per passenger is also a poorly judged estimate.
Minor nitpick: visual gauging of height is notoriously unreliable. This gets drilled into you the first thing when sky diving. Tests have proven this fact. Always use the altimeter.
Ah, got it. I just assume most scary noises from the engine on takeoff are compressor stalls, I've only heard them twice and that was plenty
Still, I don't think Mangalore needs CAT III ILS, PAR or anything fancy Unless the weather is 0/0 CATIIIC is pretty useless. Even PAR is only useful for separation between runways for high volumes and in case of emergency - I've only flown a PAR "no gyro" approach once (disclaimer - I have no jet/turbine time) for practice in the last five years.
For VOR/DME approaches, the two schools of thought are to "chop and drop" where the power is reduced and plane dives to MDA (usually 500'AGL) as soon as possible to sight the airport quickest (convenient for light planes) or to manually establish a ~3 degree glide slope to hit the missed approach point at MDA. With or without PAR, vectors for this are similar to ILS, which usually takes you down to a DH of 200' AGL vs getting to MDA 500'AGL, hence the ILS is inherently easier (plus the localizer signal is more sensitive than VOR).
I don't think the accident has anything to do with the approach path however, as we hear nothing from ATC and the weather suggests it could have been easily flown visually. I'd like to speculate that it will probably end up being an unfortunately timed tailwind gust combined with a crew trying too hard to get a soft landing and floating too far, and being indecisive about going around / RT failure, but I hate blaming a dead crew, so I'll hope it's something else.
The PPRuNe thread is much more caustic in its evaluation of Indian civil aviation. Take away some disgruntled expats and a few other biases, I think you'll see a lot of legitimate criticisms, some of which I've had the pleasure of experiencing in trying to fly home India.
Kannan wrote:
I don't think the accident has anything to do with the approach path however, as we hear nothing from ATC and the weather suggests it could have been easily flown visually. I'd like to speculate that it will probably end up being an unfortunately timed tailwind gust combined with a crew trying too hard to get a soft landing and floating too far, and being indecisive about going around / RT failure, but I hate blaming a dead crew, so I'll hope it's something else.
Mountain updraft or wind shear or gust. or tailwind :-yes it could be, given the terrain
Soft landing /flare/float :- again yes, a very likely possibility
indecisive:- may not be for an experienced pilot.
RT failure:- still would have distance to stop. RT is factored by 7% only in reduced runway length.
Boeing would try hard not to blame 737-800, but there are some significant accidents on this( not statistics wise though)
Main thing is if runway length was sufficient enough for a combination of factors. Which one played main role , well only after the report.
Within a week of air crash at Mangalore airport, Air India has been able to hand over an interim relief of Rs 2.25 crore to some families of the victims.
At the time of filing this report, Air India had handed over Rs 2.25 crore of interim relief to the families of air crash victims in 24 cases.
Nearly 100 families of the victims of the May 22 air crash attended the legal counselling sessions organised by Air India in Mangalore on May 28 and 29.
The legal counselling session, which went on till mid-night of May 28, was continuing on Saturday at the time of filing this report. Interim compensation amount was paid in cases where the documentation was correct and complete.
Ms Harpreet A. De Singh, General Manager (Quality Management Systems), Air India, said that the legal counselling session was provided by the solicitors of the company – Mulla & Mulla Associates, Mumbai – in association with the Finance Department.
She said Air India will conduct another round of legal counselling session on June 3 and 4.
BAGGAGE
On the personal effects of the passengers on board the aircraft, she said that most of the checked-in baggages have been destroyed in the accident. Police have handed over the left over luggage to Air India. These are in the safe custody of Air India.
Kenyon International Emergency Services, an international disaster management company (with which Air India has a contract), will do segregation, disinfection, cleaning, cataloguing and identification of these baggage before handing them over to the families concerned. The first team of Kenyon has left Mangalore after assessing the situation, and the second team is expected to be in Mangalore soon for doing the above works. Therefore handing over of personal effects may take a while.
Plans are on to hold an all-faith prayer meet on June 22 in memory of the victims. The venue and other details will have to be worked out, she said.
Mangalore airport runway length to be increased by 1,000 ft
The runway length of Mangalore airport, which saw a major air crash a week ago that claimed 158 lives, will be increased from the present 8,000 feet to 9,000 ft to include a larger spillover area, Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel has said. »
Staff Correspondent
Leaders of various faiths pay tributes
Government urged to complete all formalities quickly
Memorial sought to be set up for the crash victims
MANGALORE: As many as 750 people, including citizens of the city, religious leaders, and elected representatives of the region, gathered here on Saturday to pay their respects to the victims of the plane crash that claimed 158 lives on May 22.
The organisers, the Sarvajanika Shraddhanjali Samiti, coordinated with the leaders of several places of worship to hold a silent prayer at 6 p.m. and pray for the deceased.
The programme began with a half-hour light classical music (Bhavagite), with songs specially composed to mourn the victims of the crash. Following that, religious leaders of Sikh, Muslim, Christian and Hindu faiths prayed and offered tributes to the victims. Vidyatirtha of Palemar Math led the gathering in offering floral tributes to the victims.
Acharya wrote:Mangalore airport runway length to be increased by 1,000 ft
The runway length of Mangalore airport, which saw a major air crash a week ago that claimed 158 lives, will be increased from the present 8,000 feet to 9,000 ft to include a larger spillover area, Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel has said. »
Now this confuses me. If there is a valley immediately beyond the end of the current runway, how are they going to extend it by 1000ft? And if there is land available for extension behind the start of the current runway, why didn't they build the runway there in the first place?
Acharya wrote:Mangalore airport runway length to be increased by 1,000 ft
The runway length of Mangalore airport, which saw a major air crash a week ago that claimed 158 lives, will be increased from the present 8,000 feet to 9,000 ft to include a larger spillover area, Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel has said. »
Now this confuses me. If there is a valley immediately beyond the end of the current runway, how are they going to extend it by 1000ft? And if there is land available for extension behind the start of the current runway, why didn't they build the runway there in the first place?
Refering to a prior quote on page 27. Something like this may be built to extend the length of the runway.
NEW DELHI: The horrific Air India Express crash in Mangalore on May 22 that killed 158 people could have possibly been averted had the expat commander heeded his Indian co-pilot's advice. Records of the conversation between the pilots and ATC has shown that co-pilot H S Ahluwalia more than once urged Captain Zlatko Glusica not to land and instead go around.
Importantly, Ahluwalia's warning had come well before the aircraft had descended below decision height - the critical level at or before which a final decision on whether to land or go around is to be taken - said highly placed sources. Ahluwalia, who was based in Mangalore and had landed there 66 times, voiced his concern when the aircraft was about 800 feet high, they added.
Mangalore is a Captain only airport. So Pilot would have ignored advice of Co-Pilot.
According to report ,
"Ahluwalia warned at least twice against landing and urged his commander to go around. He had probably realized the aircraft was either too fast or too high on approach - indicating unstable approach - and would not be able to stop safely on the table-top Mangalore runway. In such situations, going around is a standard operating procedure which enables the aircraft to land safely in second attempt," said a source at ATC. The aircraft (IX 812) was coming from Dubai.
The Boeing 737-800 touched down after overshooting 2,000 feet of the 8,000-feet-long runway. The second error followed seconds later.
Sources said preliminary probe is indicating that the crew realized they may not be able to stop in the remaining airstrip and attempted to take off again. But it was too late by then. A Boeing 737-800 can stop in 4,500-5,000 feet. The Mangalore runway is 8,000 feet long and even if the pilots had overshot the touchdown point by 2,000 feet, there was enough length left to stop.
"Initial observations reveal the pilots may have attempted to take off again," a source said.
So Pilot tried to land, slightly higher speed and also overshot touchdown point
Autobrake+ full manual brake applied.
No confirmation if RT was used.( most likely not used)
Not able to stop ( meaning landing speed was higher than usual)
For every 10 Kts excess speed 200ft to 400fts additional length is required.Must be landing at 160-175kts with late touchdown, catastrophic combination.
if the touchdown is delayed while 10 knots of speed are bled off in flare, the total landing distance will increase by about 1,400-2,000 feet for airplanes at heavy gross weights. Once the airplane is on the ground and in a stopping mode, the increase in actual distance of 10 knots excess touchdown speed is 200-400 feet on a dry runway or as much as 600-900 feet on a very slippery runway. For a typical slippery runway (wet or very icy), an increase of 500 feet for 10 knots is representative. Thus, decelerating the aircraft on the ground by using spoilers, reversers and brakes is 3 to 10 times more effective than decelerating in an extended flare.
Then pilot tried to take off. That explains speeding up after touchdown experienced by some passengers.
Not able to gather takeoff speed ( 8 seconds for engine to respond to Power Max). Pilot tried to take off , nose up, left wing hit localiser and plunge.
"Ahluwalia warned at least twice against landing and urged his commander to go around. He had probably realized the aircraft was either too fast or too high on approach
'The Naked Pilot' by David Beaty http://www.amazon.com/Naked-Pilot-Facto ... 04825#noop provides a lot of incidents and case studies where the co-pilot by virtue of him being the subordinate to the captain in the cockpit, typically follows the heirarchy a la the cave hunter of yore where the leader of the tribe has the final word. Air accidents galore due to this psychological quirk since human beings are ingrained with this behavioral trait thanks to the evolution from his hunter-tribal days. Beaty also mentions that some airlines like Lufthansa have behavioural training programmes for their pilots where the co-pilot is given the freedom to 'take over' controls in such situations without giving rise to conflict in the cockpit.
chaanakya wrote:Mangalore is a Captain only airport. So Pilot would have ignored advice of Co-Pilot.
This is for Air India Express only. Other airlines not so particular. Old Deccan Airlines also had Captain only airports.
Not able to gather takeoff speed ( 8 seconds for engine to respond to Power Max). Pilot tried to take off , nose up, left wing hit localiser and plunge.
The engines would have been at high idle ie around 38% as opposed to ground idle of around 25%.
From this speed,to go to max thrust would take about 3-4 seconds.
Records of the conversation between the pilots and ATC has shown that co-pilot H S Ahluwalia more than once urged Captain Zlatko Glusica not to land and instead go around.
Importantly, Ahluwalia's warning had come well before the aircraft had descended below decision height - the critical level at or before which a final decision on whether to land or go around is to be taken - said highly placed sources. Ahluwalia, who was based in Mangalore and had landed there 66 times, voiced his concern when the aircraft was about 800 feet high, they added.
This sounds like typical "Indian media" lies. The published report earlier, quoting the exact conversation between the pilot and ATC, cited NO concerns, and ATC considered it a perfectly normal landing, asking the pilot to turn around at the end of the runway like at most Indian airports.
Now HOW did ATC come to hear conversations inside the cockpit that do not show up on the records, but were available to "highly placed sources"? This borders on the criminal, since both the pilots are dead, to make up such lies and publish them.
The other suspicious item is the report that the "Black box" has either not been found, or is severely damaged and will have to have Special Procedures to recover the data (translation: send to Amreeka, c/o Boeing).
Again, this is nonsense. The plane didn't crash at transonic speed to the ground - it came sliding off a cliff and bumped down 300 feet. Then caught fire. The Black Box is designed to survive actual crashes from altitude, meaning immensely worse impacts, and to survive fire for a long time.
So the purpose in sending the Black Box outside, can only be to cover up the fact that it was a mechanical failure of the airplane, which would make Boeing hugely liable.
chaanakya wrote:Mangalore is a Captain only airport. So Pilot would have ignored advice of Co-Pilot.
Which would still be horribly wrong! Just because the SOP dictates who is pilot flying and not flying doesn't mean the CRM procedures are shelved - the FO isn't there to bring him coffee.
ravar wrote:Beaty also mentions that some airlines like Lufthansa have behavioural training programmes for their pilots where the co-pilot is given the freedom to 'take over' controls in such situations without giving rise to conflict in the cockpit.
This isn't a novel concept anymore, even the CRM for local regional jets in the US have limits at which the company backs the pilot not flying taking over from the pilot flying. Unfortunately our culture has an enormous weight placed on age and seniority, and judging from the PPRuNe thread, AI has a lot of that...
I'm surprised that Jet Airways has the two call (where the FO takes command) system promoted but AI doesn't.
Either way, extending the runway is a complete waste of time and money. What exactly is the pilot being paid for if he can't put a 737 into a 8000' strip? Make it a 7000' strip and put 500' of overrun/displaced threshold on both ends.
There has been a lot of discussion in the media regarding foreign pilots
(also known as “expat pilots”) in the aftermath of the tragic air accident
at Mangalore. The Minister of Civil aviation, many bureaucrats, airline
officials and even a few journalists have gone to great lengths to explain
how experienced foreign pilots hired by Air India and private airlines are
essential to the Indian aviation industry. A retired spokesperson of Air
India, who has no business to speak on behalf of Air India anymore, has been
repeatedly appearing on television to painstakingly explain how important
foreign pilots are to the company. Clearly the air disaster at Mangalore
with a foreign pilot at the controls has made a lot of powerful people
worried .Very worried.
The point however is not whether foreigners should be allowed in Indian
carriers or not. Some of them are highly experienced and respected
professionals who have undoubtedly made a huge contribution to the Indian
airline industry. This article is not about them. It is about a shady scheme
on gargantuan proportions, backed by government policy and a well oiled
system that feeds on unimaginable corruption, on a scale that would astonish
every innocent fare paying air passenger.
Air India is a government run Public Sector Undertaking and thus, it is
assumed that rules applicable to other government institutions meant to keep
corruption under check would apply to it too. The Ministry of Defence, for
example has strict rules debarring the involvement of private middlemen or
brokers in facilitating defence contracts. Other ministries have strict
guidelines on the recruitment of qualified personnel or consultants where a
transparent tendering process has to be adhered to.
In the case of Air India and its subsidiary Air India Express, such rules do
not seem to apply at all.
Some years ago, the ministry of civil aviation that ran erstwhile Air India
and Indian Airlines, cooked up unrealistic passenger growth projections and
placed massive aircraft orders for Air India and Indian Airlines. Private
airlines only too eager to float shares to rake in public money and
capitalise on the hype jumped in the bandwagon. Overnight, hundreds of
vacancies for pilots were created.
Air India began hiring foreign pilots in 2003.Other reputed companies like
Singapore Airlines and various Gulf Airlines such as Emirates, recruit
foreign nationals too but with great transparency. Foreign pilots hired by
them are a part of the regular workforce and are directly hired, without
involving middlemen, on local terms. European airlines do not hire non EU
nationals.
In Air India’s case, no global tenders were floated for foreign recruitment
firms and no advertisements in newspapers announcing vacancies for foreign
nationals appeared. Bureaucrats and officials in Air India, hand in glove
with their counterparts and politicians in the Ministry of Civil Aviation,
Ministry of Labour, Home Ministry, Ministry of External Affairs and other
agencies hastily cleared the proposal to hire foreign nationals and the
policy of recruiting foreign pilots was established. Politicians of
opposition parties were roped in and a cosy arrangement was made.
To bypass opposition from its own employees and to circumvent elaborate
transparent recruitment procedures and various laws, a defunct subsidiary, Air
India Charters Ltd was revived and used as the vehicle to issue foreigners
contracts. Hence the hundreds of foreign pilots in Air India and Air Express
are routed through Air India Charters Ltd through recruitment firms and then
using a legal loophole, deputed to Air India and Air India Express.
Private firms comprising middlemen and brokers, with the respectable title
of “Aviation Consultants” were approached and many of these, such as
Rishworth Aviation, Parc Aviation and scores of others appeared out of the
wood work. Overnight, new consulting agencies sprang up, some in murky tax
havens like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands.
All suddenly began to offer “experienced” pilots from all parts of the
world. Many of these foreign pilots had and continue to have no clear track
record. Some claim to have thousands of hours of flying experience in
countries as diverse as Russia and Rwanda. Some of the airlines and
countries (such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia) that these pilots flew in
do not even exist anymore. No background checks are carried out by either
Air India or the Indian Government. Strangely the agency of middlemen, or
“consultant” supplying the pilots, is entrusted with this task.
Lucrative contracts were tailor-made to lure foreign pilots in droves.
Decades of rules meant to harass Indian pilots such as stringent medical
standards were waived off by the government for foreign pilots. Air India’s
pilots who are Indian nationals, have to undergo a DGCA medical test known
as a Class I medical examination and then are again subjected to an
elaborate company medical test known as a Pre Employment Medical Examination
(PEME).None of these apply to foreign nationals in India.
For example, an Indian pilot may not be allowed fly an Indian passenger
aircraft wearing a pacemaker but a foreigner most probably would because the
medical standards in his country allow it. There have been cases where
Indian pilots who are permanently medically grounded by Indian authorities
get foreign citizenship and foreign licences and return to India to fly
planes on “expat” terms. At least two such “foreign” pilots have served Air
India on such a contract.
Infact foreign pilots flying Indian registered aircraft are not even
required to have Indian flying licences! All they had to do is produce
“proof “of experience and a foreign licence and the DGCA issues a “temporary
authorisation”. Such “proof” of experience could be a fake certificate or a
fake rubber stamp but nobody carries out a background check.
A foreign pilot is not legally answerable to the Indian DGCA since he does
not have an Indian Licence. The DGCA can neither revoke nor suspend his
flying licence. Technically, an Indian Co Pilot involved in a serious air
accident may lose his flying licence and his job; whereas the pilot, if he
is a foreigner can take the next flight home and start life on a clean
slate!
To prevent the foreign pilots from coming under the ambit of direct taxes in
India, the pilots are “officially” based in foreign countries such as Dubai
and not given “local” terms of employment. Every month Air India pays the
foreign recruitment agencies the salaries of these pilots along with a
commission or “consultancy fees” to foreign bank accounts. This is turn
trickles back to the various politicians and officials who patronise the
system. Not surprisingly, a foreign pilot who recently approached Air India
for a job recently was asked to route his application through a recruitment
agency!
As a result ,hundreds of crores of income tax that would have normally gone
to the Indian Income Tax Department through TDS had these pilots been based
in India, is diverted to foreign bank accounts in foreign countries
“Liaison officers” and “advisors”, meant to “facilitate” business interests,
are regularly appointed by these foreign recruitment agencies to “liaise”
with the various ministries and departments. Two of Air India’s senior most
executives have retired in the past one year and have joined such firms as
“liaison” officers. Another, a retired CMD, continues to show great personal
interest in negotiating foreign pilots’ contracts on behalf of recruitment
agencies.
Foreign pilots are provided more leave, sometimes upto ten days in a month –
the justification being that they need to go home to be with their families.
Indian pilots flying for Air India Express are made to go on postings for
fifteen days at a stretch and given one day off at their home
base.Ironically these Indian pilots spend three to four days every
month with
their families and the foreigners (who could be from neighbouring Nepal or
Dubai) spend more than a week to ten days every month on holiday.
Foreigners also get paid a higher salary and are entitled to five star hotel
accommodations even when not flying. As a result, hundreds of hotel rooms
are booked by Air India at exorbitant rates – a percentage of which
presumably flows back to some officials.
This murky system in Air India of the past seven years has quietly gone
unnoticed. As long as flights took off on time and passengers reached their
destinations nobody really cared. Unions cried themselves hoarse- only to be
drowned in the din of the money power of powerful lobbies and an ill
informed media often hesitant to upset a mega industry that generates
lucrative advertisement revenue
The air crash at Mangalore need not have necessarily been caused by an
incompetent foreign pilot. This article is not meant to disrespect the
majority of foreign pilots in India. But the larger issue of rampant
corruption and greed must be addressed immediately. Little wonder that all
the officials in the dishonest food chain are now working overtime to cover
up the issue. Sadly the one hundred and fifty eight innocent people that
have been killed cannot speak for themselves anymore.
Therefore we, the rest of the nation, must stand up in one voice to demand a
CBI enquiry to unravel the mess.
We cannot afford to wait for another air disaster to prove the politicians,
bureaucrats and officials wrong.
Because the next time a shady foreign pilot from strange country with a
dubious qualification or medical history crashes a plane, you and I could
actually be on it.
1)enqyoob raises an EXCELLENT question - the CVR has supposedly not been decoded yet. These talks between a captain and an FO would not be on ATC tapes. What on earth is that newspaper getting its information from? I was suspicious of newspaper reports to begin with but this raises a BIG red flag.
2)Email forwards are usually email forwards because they're full of crap, and this is no exception except for one fact - foreign pilots do have their own medical standards. Depending on whether you're with JAR, FAA etc. standards, your medical certificate can be transferred from your home country and not all countries have the same standards. By far, the FAA is the most "lenient" which sounds bad but is often the result of the government willing to look at a case by case basis.
3)Thank God that expatriates are allowed to fly. The amount of cronyism and "good old boy"ism, poor airmanship and connectedness to get your certificates in India is atrocious. Despite what the cush guys at Air India's helm may try to tell you, we are very, very short of experience to handle all that big iron.
As much as th PPruNe guys can be annoying, I'm hoping the CRM turns up more before Air India exploits this event into a witch hunt for expatriates and turns us into the laughing stock of ICAO members.
So the purpose in sending the Black Box outside, can only be to cover up the fact that it was a mechanical failure of the airplane, which would make Boeing hugely liable.
Thrust reverser failure on one side.
If RT failed than Boeing is certainly liable. Even with 6000ft available runway would have been sufficient in normal situation unless pilot tried to take off again which is a strict 'no no'. It may be that pilot tried to take of due to RT failure...... or brake failure ... or did he float too long or touched more than 3000fts , looks unlikely though unless pilot was sleeping??
Because the next time a shady foreign pilot from strange country with a
dubious qualification or medical history crashes a plane, you and I could
actually be on it.
Rony ji,
Not pointing a finger at you but the contents of the post are motivated, slanted and badly biased.
This is pure unadulterated BULLSHIT.
The FORMER AIR FORCE (COMMISSIONING CREW OF AN-12s) / AIR INDIA PILOT is talking through his bloody hat.
enqyoob wrote:
So the purpose in sending the Black Box outside, can only be to cover up the fact that it was a mechanical failure of the airplane, which would make Boeing hugely liable.
Thrust reverser failure on one side.
Given that NTSB is involved and actively investigating, isnt a coverup more difficult? Or is it that the NTSB is handle in glove with Boeing, like the FDA is with pharma?
Given that NTSB is involved and actively investigating, isnt a coverup more difficult? Or is it that the NTSB is handle in glove with Boeing, like the FDA is with pharma?
Tanaji, in all aviation lore starting from the first plane crash, it has always been easier to blame "pilot error" than to establish the other complex explanations, esp. when the pilots are not around to protest any more. No need to order recalls, inspections, modifications, etc. The NTSB inspectors are human, and a finding of something as drastic as TR failure on a large fleet like B-737-800 or the engines that power it, is a huge issue. Watch "China Syndrome" to see what happens to ppl who come up with such explanations and press them.
Zeenews Bureau
New Delhi: The cases of averted air mishaps are growing in the country by the day, with reports claiming a mid-air collision between two Air India and Jet Airways flights was averted on Saturday.
Reports said the Air India flight IC 671 (Chennai to Madurai) and Jet Airways flight 9W 4758 (Thiruvananthapuram to Chennai) were headed for a head-on collision over the Trichy airspace in Kerala, when the alert pilots averted the tragedy at around 12:30 pm.
Both flights later landed safely at their respective destinations, with all passengers being safe.
Both the pilots are said to have reported the incident, with DGCA sources saying a probe has been ordered into the incident.
. It was told that the flight will be delayed by 1 hour ( 1 hour stopover + 1 hour delay = 2 hours) but I don't remember the exact delay.
