India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[negi]

As a nation we have little shame

We as a Nation( as in GOI) seldom do anything anyways that is for a different thread.

and you are, in my view, asking why we must show indignation in the one case where we did.

Well and I think I am not alone , because I think in this context it is only the Govt babus who are considered to be having any H&D rest of the folks are expendables for I don't see the so called Nation you refer to do anything for lesser mortals. SO why should lesser mortals have touchy feeling for the ones who are ostensible representatives of the great Nation ?

[amit]

^ Amit is there a difference between DCG and the GOI ? If yes then is GOI some individual ? The rot is much more deeper, who do you think comes up with bright bulb ideas like lying on a VISA application ? It is the same IAS cadre aren't they the ones who formulate all these formalities and policies for ministers come and go , it is the AS that actually puts the pen to paper ? IAS is part of the GOI so when you blame the GOI who are you exactly blaming ? MMS ? MOE ? IFS ?

Negi, I think you owe us an explanation on how you have come to the conclusion that DK lied on the visa application.

If you don't then you just trolling and nothing else.

I hope you do realize that even if it is your employer who sponsors it it is the individual who takes 400% responsibility of whatever goes into the form , please note be it a cab driver, SW techie or a student of F1 they all get shafted in form of a 10 year ban on them entering US if they are found to have lied on a VISA application unless I am mistaken there is no separate form for a diplomat .

You are 400 per cent mistaken. Which is why you are contradicting yourself in such a silly manner. DK's visa application was separate from SR's visa application as was the visa categories for the two - as much as chalk and cheese are. In case you didn't notice, there was/is no dispute on DK's visa status in the US. The problem is with SR's visa. And so going by your own logic, if any visa fraud has happened then it's SR who should be shafted and not DK, na?

Yet you have a case where DK suffers custodial rape and SR - whose visa application is fraudulent according to Bray of Pigs and you - goes about scot free and as a bonus gets her hubby and children ex-filtrated from India despite a sub judice case pending.

And despite this you are saying in practically: Aare baba why the fuss, DK is corrupt she got shafted by the global sheriff why worry, be merry. Geez! And we beat our heads over the insensitivity of the Hindu comments section trolls.

no one shed a tear for Infy leave Infy the chaps on B1 who got deported by homeland security and got their passport smeared with "Cancelled with prejudice" , they don't have a frigin Adarsh to come back or no one will give their spouse a job in JNU because Unkil ji ne danda mara.

I think this comment of your gives you away. You know last month I was in Delhi for some meetings. I was having dinner with some high flying Itivity folks and DK's case came up. One of the worthies - decent guy mind you - came up with the line: "Why should DK get a maid when we itvity guys go to Amir Khan and take care of our children and jobs without maids.

Quite a reasonable point one would say. However, I asked him, do these itivity types have the option of NOT going to the US because childcare is so expensive? He replied, quite honestly, yes as there's always a line for folks who want to go to Amir Khan and hope for best in securing a Green Card.

But you see a IFS lady does not have the luxury of refusing a posting and the other point is an IFS lady - given her seniority in this particular case - earns far less than what a sufficiently senior ivitiy type would be. But all that is besides the point. The point is that the GoI - as a matter of perks - allows for IBDAs and I don't see why DK should not avail of such a perk.

Regrading Adarsh that's a very cheap dig and I hope you realise that. It's very similar to a comment made by a poster earlier on in this forum to the effect that DK being shafted - literally - by NYPD serves her right for her involvement in the Adarsh scam. You are simply repeating that nonsense. If DK is guilty then that's a separate issue to be dealt with by Indian courts according to Indian laws. To use Adarsh in the same breadth when discussing her maltreatment in NY shows a very poor judgement.

You see we all are entitled to having opinions , my opinion on all such things is I for one don't believe in this entire system of different laws for different designations and which is the case here i.e. a VISA form is the same for a DCG as well as a cab driver or a ITVTY coolie so if latter get shafted for violating those why should it be different from someone else ? Just because she holds a government job and she ostensibly represents India ? Rest of the Indians working abroad represent TSP or what ?

This again shows a total lack of understanding of how US visas system works for diplomats as well as ivity and taxi driver types. Aren't you based in the US Negi? I'm surprised that you don't know that.

[negi]

We never show urgency when anyone else is probed because we don't care and believe that the US is a great society We only got upset that an Indian woman was probed based on the usual charges of cheating, slavery, caste etc that every Indian has to swallow while he slobbers over the west and stands in a long visa queue so that people in Amrika can say "Humph - but your immigration queues never get shorter"

As usual I don't even understand where this comes from ? This is like superimposing your views on someone else's.

[SanjayC]

Moral of the story: You don't become less patriotic if you heart finds love in foreign lands.

Then it should be OK for our army generals to marry Pakistani women.

[amit]

Nice but you do realise that false fact in this case was the wage part (at least that is what the case is about , we don't know if other details like age etc were fudged as well) , if what was stated on VISA form was not being met who as per the law was to be blamed ? SR ? Who filled her I-9 ? Indian consulate ?

Nice. As DK lawyer has submitted. Who went for the interview, who made a sworn declaration that what ever was in the DS160 was true to the best of that person's knowledge?

And finally going by your own logic, when Infy got shafted who got royally screwed? Did Narayana Murthy get a stamp on his passport or did the poor itvity workers? In this case why should SR be sitting pretty with her Green Card dream almost fulfilled and DK get a custodial rape?

By the way do think it serves her right for having "lied in SR's visa application?"

[saip]

Now we are learning a new thing. A form I-9 was filed. Even Smith forgot to mention it. OK. Some one did. What does the form say? First part would have been filled by SR. The second part would have been filled by GOI/Consulate/DK? But where is the fraud in this? SR would have claimed she had A-3 visa and the employer who ever it may be would have said yea I have seen the docs and they 'appear' genuine. So end of story.

[sivab]

if what was stated on VISA form was not being met who as per the law was to be blamed ? SR ?

Have you read the terms of DS160 visa application? It states clearly that by law it is applicant's (SR's) responsibility even if someone else assisted with applying.

Who filled her I-9 ? Indian consulate ? DCG must be having some say in as to whether a consul is following rules or not ?

I-9 is not applicable to SR. She is not subjected to any US income taxes. Federal, state, FICA.

[amit]

Moral of the story: You don't become less patriotic if you heart finds love in foreign lands.

Then it should be OK for our army generals to marry Pakistani women.

That for the Army to say. Each institution within Goi have their own rules. It appears the IFS does not have any problems with foreign born spouses but I do believe they have a stipulation that they have to become Indian citizens eventually.

[shiv]

We never show urgency when anyone else is probed because we don't care and believe that the US is a great society We only got upset that an Indian woman was probed based on the usual charges of cheating, slavery, caste etc that every Indian has to swallow while he slobbers over the west and stands in a long visa queue so that people in Amrika can say "Humph - but your immigration queues never get shorter"

As usual I don't even understand where this comes from ? This is like superimposing your views on someone else's.

No more than you

it is only the Govt babus who are considered to be having any H&D rest of the folks are expendables for I don't see the so called Nation you refer to do anything for lesser mortals. SO why should lesser mortals have touchy feeling for the ones who are ostensible representatives of the great Nation ?

Besides, if you recall

You see we all are entitled to having opinions

[negi]

Amit I never said that DK's VISA application was flasified for afaik the case against her was she was paying a domestic help a salary lower than what was below the regulation and this is not captured on VISA application form of the indidivual who is to employ a domestic help.

Re -read my post , this is exactly what I SAID

" Amit is there a difference between DCG and the GOI ? If yes then is GOI some individual ? The rot is much more deeper, who do you think comes up with bright bulb ideas like lying on a VISA application ? It is the same IAS cadre aren't they the ones who formulate all these formalities and policies for ministers come and go , it is the AS that actually puts the pen to paper ? IAS is part of the GOI so when you blame the GOI who are you exactly blaming ? MMS ? MOE ? IFS ?["

Now who filed for SR's VISA ? GOI ? GOI as in MOE ? MOE as in IFS ? Paperwork for VISA and what goes into it from government comes from the babus . Technically it is the GOI who lied on SR's visa right ? Because even if you outsource your VISA application to some third party what goes in it has to be furbished by the sponsor right ?

So it goes back to my first question. DO you make a distinction between DCG who works at Indian consulate and the GOI ? I don't because they are very much involved in policy making including VISA details for both officials and as well as who work at their homes.

No I do not live in the US any more but that has no bearing on this discussion , or at least I would hope.

[negi]

Nice. As DK lawyer has submitted. Who went for the interview, who made a sworn declaration that what ever was in the DS160 was true to the best of that person's knowledge?

And finally going by your own logic, when Infy got shafted who got royally screwed? Did Narayana Murthy get a stamp on his passport or did the poor itvity workers? In this case why should SR be sitting pretty with her Green Card dream almost fulfilled and DK get a custodial rape?

By the way do think it serves her right for having "lied in SR's visa application?"

Amit you have not got the drift of what I am saying.


Where did I say that whatever happened with DK is justified , all I am saying is that the same is not extended to other Indians who are not even caught in a legal quagmire like DK, nothing more nothing less. I do not know DK in person to wish her bad.

Coming to Infy's case where did I say that anything to the contrary ? They made a mistake they got shafted for 30 million + the chaps who got caught because Infy lied on their Visas got shafted too, too bad right ? Too bad it is.

[negi]

No more than you

it is only the Govt babus who are considered to be having any H&D rest of the folks are expendables for I don't see the so called Nation you refer to do anything for lesser mortals. SO why should lesser mortals have touchy feeling for the ones who are ostensible representatives of the great Nation ?

huh above is based on fact , the fact that Government only sprung into action because of who DK was and not because WHAT HAPPENED to HER, now can you refute that ?

And that is what has been crux of my first post i.e. the hoohaa is about H&D for GOI not India or Indians as such.

[saip]

SR's visa application was filed by SR repeat SR herself. She is the one who swore to the authenticity of the 'facts' mentioned in the application. AFAIK no I-9 form was filed. If anyone lied it is SR. GOI gave a note verbale. That is not a lie.

[amit]

Now who filed for SR's VISA ? GOI ? GOI as in MOE ? MOE as in IFS ? Paperwork for VISA and what goes into it from government comes from the babus . Technically it is the GOI who lied on SR's visa right ? Because even if you outsource your VISA application to some third party what goes in it has to be furbished by the sponsor right ?

Sorry you are totally wrong on this. According to US rules, the form is supposed to be filled by the application - in this case SR - by herself and she's the one who is supposed to declare that all the contents of the form is true to the best of her knowledge. If you care to dig up then you'd find the in the initial stages there was some confusion about the contract and hence the visa application was rejected. SR went back with a new contract and then it was passed.

The contention of the case is that one of the conditions of employment was that SR's husband would be paid Rs30K in India because he was unemployed, having lost his job as a driver in the Mozambique Embassy because of being drunk. In order to keep things over board DK drew up one contract on this with SR. The other contract, which showed she would get over minimum wages was to the effect that the balance (that is after subtracting the 30K) would be paid in NYC.

It has been DK and DK's lawyers contention all along that the balance was paid in the NY and there's even been some documents floating on the Internet to show this to be the case - its been linked on this thread if you care to look. SR got turned and she's been claiming that she didn't get a cent in NYC and that her only payment has been the 30K.

In a way its a pity this case did not go to trial as then I think the perfidy would have been royally exposed. But that's also besides the point. According to both US as well as Indian law, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Yet I see that you, like the Safe Haven types, have already assumed DK to be guilty as charged. Why is that so? Is it because you think Unkil is infallible and "has the best justice system in the world?"

PS: My point about you living (or not living) in the US was because you seem to show a singular lack of understanding of how the DS160 system works.

[UlanBatori]

negi, I agree that GOI and its minions in NYC, Chicago, Houston etc have not shown any sign of enthusiasm in standing up for other Indians who are caught in US quag-e-mires, for ages and ages. But one has to start somewhere, showing some signs of life, so I support their efforts here. Maybe a new beginning? Ever attended classes on Total Quality Management? I asked them whether by rewarding "rate of improvement" they weren't rewarding past sloth, and nearly achieved my objective of getting kicked out of there so I could escape and go home. So let's not dwell on past sloth, but praise new rate of improvement? Will return to regular programming after this is over.

[shiv]

Where did I say that whatever happened with DK is justified , all I am saying is that the same is not extended to other Indians who are not even caught in a legal quagmire like DK, nothing more nothing less. I do not know DK in person to wish her bad.

This what you actually said.

why the need for bruhaha over Mrs. Devyani ? When former president was given a pat down no one said nothing and oh btw he never broke any LAW .She has a pretty influential background and now things have been taken care of including a plush job for her husband in JNU , we don't even extend a helping hand to a road accident victim with such urgency and here and here we are cleaning up someone's mess just because she is a diplomat. I for one believe diplomatic immunity and all such farce needs to be done away with in any case the 'powerful' treat such treaties as a toilet paper like the US has done before (they even strip searched another Indian lady , 'I forget her name' from IAS cadre

You said that Kalam did not break the LAW and he was patted down. Did you mean that Khobragade broke the law?

India actually did nothing when the great Shah Rukh Khan was pulled aside, and he has influence as well as the money to own a cricket team, let alone an Adarsh flat.

It is your opinion that
1. Diplomatic niceties are unnecessary
2. The US does not give a damn

Fine. You are entitled to your view on that, but others need not feel that way. In fact diplomats do need to be given special privileges. Why that is necessary is not relevant to this thread although you are making it relevant by saying that Khobragade does not warrant special treatment because
1. She is influential
2. Why should diplomats get special treatment when "we" don't care about road accident victims?

I just think that th justification you are offering for your views indicates that the chip you carry on your shoulder is different from the one I carry on mine

[saip]

Amit, unfortunately no one is more blind than the one who refuses to see. Just because a white babu said DK committed visa fraud every brown sahib decided it must be true and so DK must be guilty. No matter what the evidence suggests. Did not she lie for Adarsh flats (did she?)? That is how people are condemned. White man always tells the truth and the brown man is a lier. If our self esteem is so low is it any wonder every one wants to trample us?

BTW I am sure you know whom I am talking about.

[amit]

Coming to Infy's case where did I say that anything to the contrary ? They made a mistake they got shafted for 30 million + the chaps who got caught because Infy lied on their Visas got shafted too, too bad right ? Too bad it is.

OK now I get your convoluted logic. You are saying to the effect:

Infy=GoI

Shafted Infy workers=DK!!!

Well nice reasoning but can you tell me where SR fits into this line of reasoning? Mind you DK's A3 visa was never in doubt or contention.

I think you haven't understood this case at all. That's why you are trivialising it. You don't seem to understand that if the GoI didn't stand up to DK's custodial rape it would have even less chance of standing up to the type of things that happened to Infy.

Note to all readers: incidentally in Infy's case what they did was put in triplicate applications for the HIB visas - something that is illegal in the US HIB visa system. This clogged up the system and as a result none of the US software companies like Microsoft etc got their H1B visas through.

I personally think equating what appears to be an illegal manoeuvre with the DK case shows a remarkable lack of understanding of both the DK case as well as the reason for the $30 million fine slapped on Infy. If it hadn't been Negi I would have considered ulterior motives.

[amit]

Amit, unfortunately no one is more blind than the one who refuses to see. Just because a white babu said DK committed visa fraud every brown sahib decided it must be true and so DK must be guilty. No matter what the evidence suggests. Did not she lie for Adarsh flats (did she?)? That is how people are condemned. White man always tells the truth and the brown man is a lier. If our self esteem is so low is it any wonder every one wants to trample us?

BTW I am sure you know whom I am talking about.

+100

One point to add: It is the bane of the Indain intellectual babu that just to appear different (s)he has to appear contarian, the fact be damned. That explains the kind of puke worthy material you find in for example the Hindu article comments section that we were discussing some time ago.

[shiv]

huh above is based on fact , the fact that Government only sprung into action because of who DK was and not because WHAT HAPPENED to HER, now can you refute that ?

Wanting me to refute something that cannot be verified is an interesting chip you want me to knock down from your shoulder.

If nothing had happened to Devyani Khobragde the Indian government would not have sprung into action for her.

Something happened to her that woke up the GoI. It turned out that in here case GoI had a strong case and the legal tools available to make the US bend to its view and allow Khobragade to leave. Those legal tools were available because she was who she was, a diplomat. It is another matter that you think diplomatic immunity should mean nothing, and you are entitled to that view, which I disagree with.

Can you please point me to at least one instance where the GoI had the ability to force the US to change its views on a legal technicality and failed to do that? Or lost to the US because the US simply ignored a law that it had agreed to abide by.

[negi]

Coming to Infy's case where did I say that anything to the contrary ? They made a mistake they got shafted for 30 million + the chaps who got caught because Infy lied on their Visas got shafted too, too bad right ? Too bad it is.

OK now I get your convoluted logic. You are saying to the effect:

Infy=GoI

Shafted Infy workers=DK!!!

No but then you won't get it.

[amit]

No but then you won't get it.

It's not only me. Maybe it's because you don't have a point. You haven't been able to respond coherently to a single specific query from several posters.

For example: How do you come to the conclusion that GOTUS has a "somewhat solid" case against DK? Have you seen the evidence?

[negi]

Now who filed for SR's VISA ? GOI ? GOI as in MOE ? MOE as in IFS ? Paperwork for VISA and what goes into it from government comes from the babus . Technically it is the GOI who lied on SR's visa right ? Because even if you outsource your VISA application to some third party what goes in it has to be furbished by the sponsor right ?

Sorry you are totally wrong on this. According to US rules, the form is supposed to be filled by the application - in this case SR - by herself and she's the one who is supposed to declare that all the contents of the form is true to the best of her knowledge. If you care to dig up then you'd find the in the initial stages there was some confusion about the contract and hence the visa application was rejected. SR went back with a new contract and then it was passed.

Arrey baba DS-160 is not the only document which is needed for a VISA. Someone has to file a petition, file a letter for application for domestic help. All these aside there is a document as per the FSLA where employer gives it in writing as to what the wage will be. SR will just copy paste that into the DS-160.

Please save me the sermons on how VISA system works.

Oh btw my personal opinion on these things is that responsibility for verification of accuracy of the details on DS-160 for a professional visa should lie with the VISA sponsor in this case the GOI but then since that is not the case as per the LAW I shall not bring it in here.

These aside I am sure like I-9 there should be other documents where employer has to declare and show to the federal government as to how much they pay to a domestic help . So yes SR is responsible for what she writes on DS-160 but VISA fraud goves over and beyond just the form DS-160.

[negi]

For example: How do you come to the conclusion that GOTUS has a "somewhat solid" case against DK? Have you seen the evidence?

Read that post in it's entirety , it was all relative i.e. APJ Kalam and Meena Shankar were frisked and given a pat down and what was the reason there ? Here they got SR's case as nice excuse.

[negi]

Can you please point me to at least one instance where the GoI had the ability to force the US to change its views on a legal technicality and failed to do that? Or lost to the US because the US simply ignored a law that it had agreed to abide by.

Ability to force ? Hmm how do you quantify this ? Arrey we have not even shown ability to force TSP to change it's views why talk about US ?

[amit]

Arrey baba DS-160 is not the only document which is needed for a VISA. Someone has to file a petition, file a letter for application for domestic help. All these aside there is a document as per the FSLA where employer gives it in writing as to what the wage will be. SR will just copy paste that into the DS-160.

Please save me the sermons on how VISA system works.

Oh btw my personal opinion on these things is that responsibility for verification of accuracy of the details on DS-160 for a professional visa should lie with the VISA sponsor in this case the GOI but then since that is not the case as per the LAW I shall not bring it in here.

These aside I am sure like I-9 there should be other documents where employer has to declare and show to the federal government as to how much they pay to a domestic help . So yes SR is responsible for what she writes on DS-160 but VISA fraud goves over and beyond just the form DS-160.

You know you should have been in PB's legal team. You'd probably have given DK's lawyer a more torrid time than they have.

[shiv]

Can you please point me to at least one instance where the GoI had the ability to force the US to change its views on a legal technicality and failed to do that? Or lost to the US because the US simply ignored a law that it had agreed to abide by.

Ability to force ? Hmm how do you quantify this ? Arrey we have not even shown ability to force TSP to change it's views why talk about US ?

Your reply to my query about America has brought up India's dealing with Pakistan. Maybe I should consider that as meaning that you would rather move the goalpost than back down from an assertion that you are unable to support? I would like to keep Pakistan out of this discussion. Also accident victims, if that is possible.

India actually forced the US to release Khobragade using a technicality that the US was unable to refute.

[amit]

Read that post in it's entirety , it was all relative i.e. APJ Kalam and Meena Shankar were frisked and given a pat down and what was the reason there ? Here they got SR's case as nice excuse.

Yes it is precisely because of the treatment meted out he APJ and Meena Shankar - you forgot to mention Prabhu Dayal and Krittika Biswas - that there was a need to take a stand at some point of time. And this is what the GoI did in this case.

Sorry it's not about DK the individual it's about DK the diplomat - its immaterial if she has a nice flat in Adarsh to come back to. You don't lightly take a criminal case and custodial rape of one of your diplomats. And it doesn't matter what happens to Infy - that is for a separate discussion and resolution.

By mixing so many things up you are giving the distinct impression of downhill skiing and trivializing a serious issue. Did you know that ever since one of our diplomats was beaten up in Beijing during Mao's cultural revolution No other Indian diplomat has been treated this badly anywhere in the world?

The patdowns are despicable and horrendous but they do not come in the arena in terms of gravity to a custodial rape, public arrest in front of children's school and incarceration with prostitutes and drug addicts plus a $250K bail bond. All for what - a wage dispute and alleged visa fraud.

By trying to equate everything under the sun, including our alleged antipathy to accident victim you show, at best a distinct lack of understanding and at worst a totally callus attitude to the prestige of the GoI vis a vis foreign image. I suggest you read someone like Mahbubani to understand how important this whole issue is.

[member_22733]

Negiji,

Please note that this case was not even a wage dispute. There is not even a civil case here as far as the US is concerned. It would have been a wage dispute if DK and SR were subjected to US laws. They were on Indian land when the "issue" happened. A-3 visa was a mutually agreed method to get maids from India to work in the US. THe filling of the form was understood to be just formality. But the maid and DK were under Indian jurisdiction.

That is the gist of a lot of arguments here, and I believe that as long as DK had consular immunity and the wage dispute happened on Indian territory, arresting DK was illegal under any circumstances.

PB and co have no case. Its not even a civil case, let alone criminal.

So, by arresting and braying out loud aboud slavery practiced by Ugly unwashed brown skinned heathens, the US DoJ and assorted cronies like the SH lawyers plus the Paki stealth jeehardies were really attacking the Sovereign Republic of India. This point is missed (understandably) by many of our own folks.

[shiv]

Ability to force ? Hmm how do you quantify this ? Arrey we have not even shown ability to force TSP to change it's views why talk about US ?

Negi I need to make an observation about this post although it is only peripherally relevant to the thread

Here you are saying that an India that cannot force a lesser Pakistan to do something should not even bring up discussion about India forcing the much greater US of A to do something. I believe that a lot of Indians see the US, India, Pakistan and other nations as forming a sort of bureaucratic hierarchy of nations where rank counts and an inability to get past lower ranks disqualifies a nation from even talking about dealing effectively with a higher ranking nation.

A lot of Indians view the US (and other countries) is this way and seek to educate other Indians about this gradation as you have done in your post, but I have been trying to ask if this caste/rank gradation of nations is necessary and why.

[amit]

^^^^^

Shiv to quote what you have said on other threads. Aare even the US can't get the Pakis to do what they want. So doesn't that make US==India? And Pakis>US, India? Pakiness comes in many disguises - Inner Pakistaniat and all that.

[negi]

Aare even the US can't get the Pakis to do what they want. So doesn't that make US==India? And Pakis>US, India? Pakiness comes in many disguises - Inner Pakistaniat and all that.

Wait they have actually, they have allowed them to amass nukes to contain India but then you won't get it.
Problem with your posts is you are overdoing the = part where it does not even fit.

[UlanBatori]

AoA! So much takleef over nothing.

[negi]

No other Indian diplomat has been treated this badly anywhere in the world?

But Indians have been and have been treated far worser and GOI did not do a squat.

[member_22733]

negi -- So in order for GOI to take care of us, do we need to take all our open issues (there are millions) with warts and all to an external entity like the USofA in order for them to fix it? If we are apathetic to our own diplomats, aren't we becoming the same thing that you are accusing GoI/diplomats to be? (of not doing squat, or not showing any concern?)

[shiv]

^^^^^

Shiv to quote what you have said on other threads. Aare even the US can't get the Pakis to do what they want. So doesn't that make US==India? And Pakis>US, India? Pakiness comes in many disguises - Inner Pakistaniat and all that.

Yes Amit. The argument that grades and ranks countries in a particular way is more rhetoric than anything else and rhetoric is a game that is good to play because endless irrelevant arguments can be made.

Ultimately, countries, like individuals can force others to do things only when they have some kind of legal or other lever to achieve that forcing. India could not get Headley, and will not get the Richards or that naval officer. India did get Khobragade because the US had strong reasons for not being able to ignore the law about UN diplomatic immunity. Simlarly the US will not get Snowden - at least in the current scheme of things.

Using the gradation logic we find that the US cannot force Russia to do something, but Russia lost to Pakistan in the cold war. Therefore Pakistan is greater than the US and Russia and India need not bother trying to do anything with Pakistan. India's failures are justified. I apologize for posting utter nonsense, but I do so merely to point out how attractive this (il)logic is in a rhetorical, as opposed to fact based argument

[negi]

negi -- So in order for GOI to take care of us, do we need to take all our open issues (there are millions) with warts and all to an external entity like the USofA in order for them to fix it?

I am not doing that , this is a closed forum and I am expressing my opinion about an episode not like the PM himself who has to apologise to US and the world for 2002 or his buddies who have to ask GOTUS to deny visa to someone . There is a difference.

If we are apathetic to our own diplomats, aren't we becoming the same thing that you are accusing GoI/diplomats to be? (of not doing squat, or not showing any concern?)

Well I am like that, I for one do believe that with greater power comes greater responsibility. I will show some the day they show some to Indian public here in India leave alone the ones who get trapped in laws of foreign land for to be brutally honest I know despite all the bruhaha here and elsewhere no one gives a damn , it is everyman for himself , I have long given up on the GOI for that , fck man it can't take care of it's soldiers on it's on soil rest of us are just unwanted cretins.

[member_22733]

Negi,

I understand that frustration and it is a valid one.

However what you are doing is akin to celebrating the local goon beating up the local policeman, since you hate the policeman. There are a couple of things here. By encouraging the goon, you are weakening the very structures that can in the future protect you or your next generation. A corrupt police can be fixed, it maybe slow, but there can be progress. The goon, however, will remain a goon. Not only that, given a chance the local goon might beat you up much much worse than the local policeman will.

[vic]

Nobody can dispute the right of USA to ask DK to leave, our objection is that you have raped a women who was representative of India. It's like attack on Parliament, that a two bit CIA agent Wayne can order police gang rape of an Indian Diplomat. I want equal equal with all US diplomats in India involved in tax flap similarly gang raped by Delhi Police in custody.

[negi]

Well if this is indeed about justice then India should seek a legal re-course no ? Now question is, is there a provision for this and will the GOI pursue it ?