Posted: 26 Nov 2005 19:14
the matter is settled. Moose turned out to be a ok guy and a couple of people from here gently corrected him.
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Actually the USAF has very little to loose, their capabilities are well known - they don't have many weaknesses. If any weakness/deficiency does show its self they have the funding and politicial backing to fix it. OOTH the IAF has to be more careful about what it exposes.Samir wrote:You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.
Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.
...So, so true.You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.
Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.
Hear, hear!!!Mohan Raju wrote:..... And, I put it to you, India's security services are generally pretty damned good at keeping an eye on bad guys without turning the country into one vast prison camp. After all that India has suffered over the decades, we still do not have a GITMO, nor a desire to have one.......(
Mohan,Mohan Raju wrote:To illustrate this point better, take the example of what I will call "photo security" (it's my term, not something standard). For decades, it has been illegal in India to take photographs at airports and certain other places considered to be of interest to terrorist and other enemies. Why? Because of the fear that these photographs could be used by enemies (Pakis and other terrorists) to plan attacks on Indian territory.
moose69 Posted: Nov 27, 2005 - 11:08 AM
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Status: Offline I am happy to answer any questions that I can but it seems like some of them are nearing the secret level. The aircraft did not simulate any of their "real weapons" because we all had "make believe" weapons with the same shot ranges in every aspect. We had make believe heaters and slammers. We even made up rules about when we could employ the gun. I am sure the dudes that flew with their helmet mounted sites were making use of them. I was able to use my JHMCSS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) for everything but firing off boresight because part of the rules dictated that. The ROEs were pretty simple for shot criteria because of the fictional weapons.
As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.
I would feel comfortable against the MKI only in BVR...the thing has thrust vectoring for crying out loud
Having flow in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia. Some of their planes are old but the skill of the IAF pilots make them hold their own. I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised.
moose69 Posted: Nov 26, 2005 - 02:28 AM
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Status: Offline We started off on the first day with mixed formations doing fingertip flying, which was really cool. Next was some BFM, ACM, and Tactical intercepts. Then came the BVR Air Combat Tactics with us flying in mixed LFE formations with Su-30s, Mig 29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21 Bisons, and Mirage 2000s. The last phase was HVAA (High Value Asset) OCA and DCA. We did get into close combat with every jet they had and it was awesome... Their Sus and Migs really have a lot of power and it was impressive to see how they handled in BFM. The SU-30 was soooo easy to spot those because it makes the F-15 look like a Viper. One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.
moose69 Posted: Nov 26, 2005 - 03:45 PM
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Status: Offline Yeah there were a large number of higher ranking pilots there. I guess I came off as being "literal" in that comment. I wasn't trying to imply anything by saying that they were all LtCols anyway.... I know that two of the Fulcrum pilots were Flying Officers. What I was thinking was a LtCol was actually a Squadron Leader (Major equivalent). They were all good pilots and we all had a lot of fun. We were just thinking that it was really cool that we got to go being so young and flying with their better pilots. Thats all I was trying to say folks. What do you guys really want to know about the exercise? We had "Within Visual Range" fighting with all of the aircraft types but it was based on notional weapons, as Ragin pointed out. The Mig-21 Bisons pilots will tell you that they don't fly the Mig-21, they fly Bisons.
Ok I will try and answer all these questions to the best of my ability...Lets start with the Bison in WVR and BVR...thse are all on the unclass side of course. There were never any true 1v1 BFM against Bisons because, lets face it, it's an old airframe and can in no way turn with the Viper. There were, however, some TI to ACM with Fulcrums and Bisons together. Now keep in mind that we were fighting with fictitious weapons, and the Bison felt it had the best advantage to blow through a WVR engagement and "light the candle". On the LFE side, they did openly (because I was in an integrated "package" with them) stick with the floggers as strikers. I thought the fact that they would also do TI and 1v1 ACM with Fulcrums was interesting too.
Now the Fulcrum, I thought, has the most powerful engines as a ratio of aircraft size. Everytime one would take off it would do a slow climb at high AOA and then power out of it, a few times it looked as if it was going to stall at any moment...it was truely impressive to watch. The guys who had incentive rides in the fulcrum were impressived with it's power and maneuverability. It is a large aircraft and was not too difficult to spot in the air unless they were using haze or the sun to their advantage. Their engines tended to smoke significantly. As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.
As for the F-15's, they were under certain rules just as we were so I am not surprised at what happened.
The Su-30 can perform very well, especially with an experienced pilot who knows his airplane. Their squadron commander was an outstanding pilot whom we all respect deeply. If the Su-30 ever gets into WVR without being spotted (you can see the guy a looong way off), then you are going to have your hands full.
As for the AWACS, it did get airborne and was able to control the IAF from the air. After they IAF got used to the radio comm and working with the E-3. they were doing awesome. I was in a couple of LFEs with them and they seemed to adapt really well in preformance. They are, of course, planning on buying AWACs in 2007...that was in the Indian Newspapers.
As for what they plan to buy...there was only talk on the "BRO" level....the concensis is that they will most likley go a Mirage 2000-5 since they already have maintenence and ties with that airframe already.
Lastly, we were not there to show of the Viper so that they would buy it...again, there were mutual rules enforced based on notional weapons for both sides.. We flew against the IAF and with them against the USAF. We did our best in BFM and in everything else...I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.
The Mirages are great in BFM because they are hard to see. Their delta wings give them a good instant turn capabililty too. I would say that in a BVR arena it is essential to have the aircraft on your radar if you want to do anything...In the dogfight arena.....if you don't have visual on the aircraft then you have already lost.
I don't think I can get into details about radars but the Mirage seemed like a pretty nice jet in all arenas.
Moose
Ragin' Posted: Nov 27, 2005 - 02:32 PM
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If you could give us a week we will have a complete compilation of photos to share with you from the exercise. Moose has answered most of the questions you've posed and I apologize for not answering more, but I have been chasing tail since I've been back. It is comforting though to see the tow o f the conversation focus on the premis of the exercise.
One question that I would like to address is that of the MiG-29 vs the Mirage. I had the priviledge to fly against the Fulcrum in ACM and the M2000 in BFM. I would say that the Fulcrum has the exclusive reign of power, but would not weight that in excess of the M2000's ability to point it's nose (which is quite impressive...trust me). However, we did not get the chance to fly with the MiG-29s in BVR combat. The M2000s could hold their own quite well (in combat as well as on the golf course). Once again, I think it is a good example of the real question being of pilot, techinique, and above all else reaction making the real difference.
As said in previous threads, many of us were amazed at how similar we were as far as being fighter pilots...it was also amazing to see that the axioms of BFM stand true...
Lose Sight, Lose Fight
Manuever in Relation to the Bandit
Nose fight versus Energy Fight
Moose...get back to posting the new FIH and stop surfing the net! Just kidding bro!
To be honest, part of the US's extraordinary openness with regards to some of their military ability is because of their overwhelming strength in numbers and technology. Take that away (hypothetically) and they too would only be showing bits and pieces of what they have and what they can do. Of course, goes without saying that India needs respite from babucracy in the MOD and hamfisted implementation of the OSA from the colonial era, but we can certainly see some of the reasons why the IAF or the other services are not so liberal about actual operational ability.Samir wrote:You know what is really advanced about the USAF? Their pilots can go on a BB, right after they have completed an exercise, and talk about it, and post photos.
Wow, if one of our pilots tried that, the IAF would expel his kid from Air Force School, make his wife dance at the AFWWA dinner, and add 5000 to his serial number.
Could we please get off the vast GOTUS does everything, coaches everthing conspiracy theory and cynicism? Pretty please?Victor wrote:Good post, Mohan.
Exactly because of the Patriot Act, I would lean towards the two F-16 guys being coached by GOTUS to release the desired line for the general audience in such fora. One can never tell who's listening. In this case, that line happend to be good-to-OK stuff about us Injuns from the horse's mouth which complements the line at the official USAF websites. What leads me to this view is the fact that these two are joined-yesterday newbies at F-16.net suddenly saying "ask and I shall tell all". As F-16 Jocks, didn't they have anything to share with the F-16 Jock wannabes on that forum before Cope India? And the "minimum rank colonel" bit was jarring. They COULD be that uninformed but I doubt it.
JCage, we might be talking past each other though I'll grant that "coached" was a bad term to use. No doubt the guys spoke from the heart after being impressed by the MKI, Bisons and IAF performance in the air and on the golf course. Their trashing of the earlier nonsense in the forum has sent a message. I would just feel that much more comfortable (and pakis would feel that much more uncomfortable) if it had official sanction which I believe is probable.JCage wrote: Could we please get off the vast GOTUS does everything, coaches everthing conspiracy theory and cynicism? Pretty please?
"Since the cold war, there has been the general assumption that India is a third-world country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well," says Jasjit Singh, a retired air commodore and now director of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. "That myth has been blown out by the results" of these air exercises.
Tell that to the participants of bharat-rakshak.com (Guardian of India). On any given day, this website seems devoted to which Indian fighter plane uses which missile, with occasional grumblings about why Saurav Ganguly is still playing on the Indian cricket team. But during Cope India '05, Bharat Rakshak was a veritable cheering session for the underestimated Indian Air Force.
Mods,More recently, an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," wrote a purported US "Viper" pilot. "They made some mistakes and so did we.... That's what happens and you learn from it."
Why bother?Kartik wrote:..what more could we guys ask for as propaganda tools ?? its now time to spread this around..every damn forum that has Pukes in it..
Actually, Scott is a regular on "Foreign Correspondent" an NDTV news analysis show hosted by Colonel "Arjun-is-crap" Shukla . Maybe Vishnu can ask the good Colonel to get the good Mr. Baldauf to retractFrom : Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Quote:
More recently, an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," wrote a purported US "Viper" pilot. "They made some mistakes and so did we.... That's what happens and you learn from it."
Mods,
Can somebody please, take up the issue of the "Viper" pilot's comment [ie. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," ] was in response to the preceding comments posted on F-16.net, and was not in response to what was posted on Bharat-Rakshak.com.
Scott is definitely a lurker here...hopefully he will read these posts and clear up the article to differenciate between BR and F-16.net....would have the occasional outburst of jingoism...
Wasn't that a Flanker? Or is there another pic of the Fulcrum?Kartik wrote:and there is another stunner of a Fulcrum supporting a whole squadron of guys on it !
There's a new fulcrum pic carrying humans just like trains and buses i.e. - on the "roof".elmihiro wrote:Wasn't that a Flanker? Or is there another pic of the Fulcrum?Kartik wrote:and there is another stunner of a Fulcrum supporting a whole squadron of guys on it !
Kind of makes you wonder what the Il-76 is capable of...shiv wrote:There's a new fulcrum pic carrying humans just like trains and buses i.e. - on the "roof".
You can use your madrassa maths and figure out how many hours the airframe has flown since 1997 and then perhaps you will understand why I keep harping about the fact that IAF "flogged" the -30K. Its nearly obscene the # of hours they have put on that aircraft, there is no way that airframe can ever be upgraded to anything...MKI avionics?? Ha.Singha wrote:. Moose confirms a flanker pilot told him got 200 hrs/yr and the senior pilot flies in the back as WSO.
You still need to have the Pilots/Squadron figure to calculate the airframe hours.George J wrote:You can use your madrassa maths and figure out how many hours the airframe has flown since 1997 and then perhaps you will understand why I keep harping about the fact that IAF "flogged" the -30K. Its nearly obscene the # of hours they have put on that aircraft, there is no way that airframe can ever be upgraded to anything...MKI avionics?? Ha.Singha wrote:. Moose confirms a flanker pilot told him got 200 hrs/yr and the senior pilot flies in the back as WSO.
True true...but then I guess you will never know....mu hu hu ha ha ha. Thats why you infidels should be worshipping the K not the MKI. There be no MKI if it werent for them K.Jagan wrote:You still need to have the Pilots/Squadron figure to calculate the airframe hours.........With just one variable 200 pilot hours per year, its not enough...........