Long range Agni missile & test launch

[Raja Ram]

Good one Doc! Let us just use Sivakasi factories to build rockets that can deliver flowers!

What to do? We are like this onlee. If we believe we have a TN weapon, we have, if we don't believe we have, we don't have. It is all maya.

In ten years time post Shakti we are well on the way to get the delivery capabilities for the Triad. We can choose to believe what we want to deliver, I guess.

But I am with Arun _S on one thing. Dont sign the deal. What is more important is the question of our soverignity to decide anything - to test or not test, launch 100K missile or 20,000 km missile or eat rice or eat wheat or eat grass. That can never be given away. If this deal does in any way, even obliquely, restrains or attempts to restrain this soverignity, it is not worth signing. As it stands, it does so dont sign.

So just as we announce and test a missile, we can announce and test a bomb. As and when we feel it is necessary.

[prashanth]

Of course assuming that Arun is correct that Indian nukes are a complete fizzle, the missiles too are unnecessary - unless we want to deliver flowers. There is absolutely no point showing any enthusiasm about an offensive missile force if we are sending duds.

Doc,

I think we can safely assume that our pure fission weapons are not duds. We can assume also that our scientists can develop FBFs of yield 25-30Kt, even if the TN test was a failure.
If DRDO can develop MIRVs then India can field an adequate nuclear force, with thosw 20-30Kt weapons. That is an encouraging thought. Isn't it?

[SaiK]

Not for second strikes.. each mirv has to be 200kt thermos. We don't have that many launchers from sub-surface. And, there are only few in plan, and the first one onlee seems to be happening during 2015 timeframe., and I am sure, it would take atleast 10 years from there to get couple more.

6MIRV [should cover 1000km target circle from space] of 200KT is what I read everybody agreeing per delivery. {Interesting tests would be, that the MIRV first release is say a border near our border, and the final delivery could be the max ranged at the border of our enemy}

[shiv]

Doc,

I think we can safely assume that our pure fission weapons are not duds.

With respect - may I point out that when we are into the assumption game we could also assume that our undetected subkiloton blasts were either large fission or other weapons that did not work at all - but were passed off as "subkiloton weapons". And the weapon that was fished out unexploded was fished out because even the conventional fuse did not blow. And besides who ever heard of 3 simultaneous tests producing one feeble bang?

The saddest part of course is that the much vaunted BJP government supported these lies while every government before or since has been more honest about failures. Tells you something about patriots doesn't it? I doubt if any of these Agnis is working either. We can safely assume Agni 3 probably was meant to go 6000 Km - it went only 2500 and they are saying it will do 3000. It's all a bluff.

IMVVHO of course.

[Rahul Shukla]

I am still fascinated by the long flight time and the unaccountable ~400 secs. What a journey it must have been.

Saar, are you suggesting that the total flight time was 800 + 400 secs? Please kindly educate us exactly as to what you see here...

From Page 1 of current thread;

From previous AIII post flight news reports: FS ~ 60 secs and S/S ~ 110 secs. Now reentry from 350km at ~ 4km/sec equals 87.5 secs ignoring other effects. So total active time= 60+110+88=258 secs. So the coast phase was quite long! (800-260secs = 540 secs) Wow!

[sivab]

With respect - may I point out that when we are into the assumption game we could also assume that our undetected subkiloton blasts were either large fission or other weapons that did not work at all - but were passed off as "subkiloton weapons". And the weapon that was fished out unexploded was fished out because even the conventional fuse did not blow. And besides who ever heard of 3 simultaneous tests producing one feeble bang?

The saddest part of course is that the much vaunted BJP government supported these lies while every government before or since has been more honest about failures. Tells you something about patriots doesn't it? I doubt if any of these Agnis is working either. We can safely assume Agni 3 probably was meant to go 6000 Km - it went only 2500 and they are saying it will do 3000. It's all a bluff.

IMVVHO of course.

I am with you Doc, its all maya onlee.

[ramana]

This AIII-D3 flight should be called Mohini as she will deliver the required payload based on the recievers merits or demerits.

Coasting doesnt account for that long gap. Go back to Mohini legend to see why I call this one so.

[Rahul Shukla]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the mohini ledgend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

[Arun_S]

The saddest part of course is that the much vaunted BJP government supported these lies

Indeed that is saddest part. To be cowed into moratorium and not test in 2002 tethered on the promise of NSSP this or NSSP that.

Doing Pok-II and then trying to mange the ton of bricks that was expected to fall, call it typical SRDE buffoon

versus

The Sher-e-Punjab Shri MM Singh and Ms S Gandhi on hearing the news of Pok-II whose knees shivered with fright at the thought that USA will now kill us with sanctions, this is a big mistake to have done nuclear test. This when Cong(I) ask for Gen Ragahavan's assessment. Official press release and Parliament record on the subject are very instructive to understand the nature of the being.

Who does one choose amongst the evil options?

"Girtay hain sheh-sawar hi maidan-e-jang mai, Woh tuful hi kiya giray jou ghutnoun kay bul chalay?"
(One who dare to ride rough shot in battle do fall down, OTOH those who crawl on their knees do not fear falling off horse back)

Who is better? the buffoon who fell off the horse back or the one who has never fallen off horse back but only crawled all his life?

Sad indeed. IMHO.

[Arun_S]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the mohini ledgend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

More clue "Samudra Manthan" --> Halaha ---> Amrut --> Fight for Amrut amongst Sur and Asur --> Lord Vishnu in the form of Mohini -->

See:
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/PE83/

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Samudra_manthan

[Prem]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the mohini ledgend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

http://members.aol.com/sabrin1315/mohini.htm


The Mohini-Attam is a traditional dance form that celebrates the story of how Mohini uses her charm to save Shiva from Bhasmasura, a terrible demon. Bhasmasura, by performing admirable ascetic sacrifices, wins the favor of Shiva, who is the god of ascetism. Shiva grants him a boon, and Bhasmasura asks for the ability to turn anyone he touches on the head into ash. Shiva agrees, whereupon the demon attacks him and attempts to reduce him to ash! Shiva convinces Vishnu to intervene, and Vishnu assumes the form of Mohini. Bhasmasura is taken with Mohini, who convinces him to mimic every move she makes during an alluring dance. Bhasmasura is so distracted by her beauty and grace that she tricks him into patting himself on the head -- thus saving Shiva.

.

[Prem]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the mohini ledgend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

More clue "Samudra Manthan" --> Halaha ---> Amrut --> Fight for Amrut amongst Sur and Asur --> Lord Vishnu in the form of Mohini -->

Asuric deeds call for CMD Cosmic Mohini Dance. In the current version of the story , Mahaasura have given the boon to Chotaasura.

[ramdas]

Arunji,

Are you saying that the "Agni III" tested this time was a three stage missile with an active third stage added to the 2 stage TD version ? Is this not what they are now calling "Agni V" ?

[Arun_S]

ramdas: Pls check previous pages ( or older thread) this was discussed earlier.

[ramdas]

Indeed you have said that there was an active third stage. This is what a section of the media seems to be referring to as Agni V. Only the Hindu business line says that the Agni V is an outright larger missile. All the others say that it is a small 3rd stage added to a 2 stage A-III. But, the latter seems to have been already tested this time.

[Vinod Ji]

"Girtay hain SHAH sawar hi maidan-e-jang mai, Woh TIFLAG kiya girayGA jou ghutnoun kay bul chalay?"
(One who dare to ride rough shot in battle do fall down, OTOH those who crawl on their knees do not fear falling off horse back)
.[/quote]


Shah sawar--literal meaning king of riders {normally king's body gaurds(but it was the group of the fiercest horse riders which was used to spearhead the charge to break a hole in the defences of enemy)}
Tiflag = child



Glad I could add some thing to Arun's post otherwise a mere mortal like me never will get a second chance.My knowledge in the matters, where you are guru, is what I have got from your posts.

[Arun_S]

Indeed you have said that there was an active third stage. This is what a section of the media seems to be referring to as Agni V. Only the Hindu business line says that the Agni V is an outright larger missile. All the others say that it is a small 3rd stage added to a 2 stage A-III. But, the latter seems to have been already tested this time.

Small is subjective term.
I believe the A3-D3 had 2 visible large diameter motors, plus a SUM 100-8 motor inside the big nose cone (see the dark blue outline in the RV-Mk3):
Click to Enlarge
The SUM 100-8 (approx 800kg fuel) was responsible for the final trajectory that got the payload to reenter at 3K range at 800 sec (compared to >890 seconds that is feasible with a 2 stage missile).

What Dr.Chander is referring in Agni-V is adding a small additional large diameter motor. I.e. one will be able to distinctly see this 3rd stage 2m dia motor. The Small Upper Motor OTOH is in the payload adapter and only visible during vehicle assembly. So he referring to what BR missile section call as Agni-IIIC or Agni-IIIB.

[ramana]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the Mohini legend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

So did Mohini dump all the amrut at one time or did she stop and serve the folks as they deserved?

[Arun_S]

Saar, I have tried to look but my rusty INS has failed to point me to the Mohini legend. Please kindly give coordinates (thread/pg).

So did Mohini dump all the amrut at one time or did she stop and serve the folks as they deserved?

Ahammmm .... . . . It would very interesting to know if the SUM is a slow burning motor. Then Mohini's service will become very very interesting. DRDO TechPub once had an article on slow burnrate motor.

As an aside some DRDO's RV have solid fuelled impulse cartridges in the velocity correction package.

[Prem]

Question from Dharmic POV,
Will Mohini follow the path of JUGNI and visist many towns one by one on the Teerathyatra to Yampuri?

[Arun_S]

IMHO a niave and asinie article on IPCS by Satyajit Mohanty

DOMESTIC ARTICLES Article no. 2017
Date 19 May 2006
Agni-III Missile: India's Policy Options

Satyajit Mohanty

A country's nuclear deterrence capability depends on the precision and consistency of its delivery capabilities. No defence force in the world would want to rely upon an untried and untested delivery system, particularly when its strategic doctrine is committed to the twin principles of "minimum credible nuclear deterrence" and a "no-first-use principle." India's defence and scientific establishment have gone on record to say that Agni-III is operationally ready and it is for the government to give a go-ahead for its testing.

However, the government has put a self-imposed moratorium on the testing of the over 3,000 kilometre range Agni-III after a thoughtful analysis of the consequences of such a move, {Arun_S: First Paragraph the auther says staregic weapons must be tested to be of value, second paragraph says opposite. I think such illogical, quixotic and oxymoron thoughts comes when one uses musharraf instead of brains to think} factoring in systemic and regional responses. As the missile tests have been postponed at least a couple of times in the last two years, there appear to be no logic why India should go ahead with the testing of the Agni missile at this juncture.[/b] {Arun_S: Another illogical, self contradicting logic.}

If the goal of foreign policy is to maximise state security, this is what India's current policy of self-restraint is precisely attempting to attain. India's bilateral relations with both Pakistan and more so with China are shaping up well and any move, perceived as offensive, will enhance the "security dilemma" in the region and step up Sino-Pakistan missile technology collusion. [/b] {Arun_S: An illogical argument that is akin to put more kerosine to the fire in the hope to extinguish the fire, or hoping that fire will exhaust itself after burning your house. Yes of course but there will be no house left to protect or worry after that.}South Asia is already seen as a region where missile testing adds to regional tensions. Pakistan tested its 2,500 km Shaheen-II in April 2006, apparently to match India's Agni-II and thus testing of Agni-III close on its heels might act serve an alibi to prompt a near failed state to give velocity to its missile related programme - a thing which India can ill afford at this stage.[/b] {Arun_S: The author's argument merits Idiot of the Year award.}

In any case Prithvi, Agni-I and Agni-II are designed to carry conventional as well as nuclear payloads, keeping the sub-regional security dynamics into consideration. At its current state of development, Indian capabilities are sufficient to attain credible second-strike capabilities in South Asia and it does not need overkill capabilities to achieve a minimum nuclear deterrence in the region.

Agni-III is basically designed by keeping in sight the larger Sino-Indian strategic environment. However, even an Agni-III with a nuclear payload might not be able reach deep into China and strike either Beijing or Shanghai. India can anyway strike the fringes of China with its Agni-II missile. China's muted reaction to both Agni-II and Agni-III missile programmes has already blunted the psychological aspect of India's deterrence. [/b] {Arun_S: Wonderful. Head I win, tail you lose. The China infested brains are frozen fresh.}China's defence modernisation plans, ICBMs with GPS-guided warheads and a vision to catch up with the US in RMA, together with its great power ambitions has given it a strategic and technological advantage which has left India miles behind. By stating Pakistan's missile and India's Agni programme would lead to South Asian instability and that Islamabad might be worried about New Delhi's Agni missile, Beijing may attempt to "water down" Agni's psychological edge. By this manoeuvre China will attempt to contain the Agni-III's impact to within the confines of South Asia.

In addition to these offence-defence considerations, in the backdrop of Iran and North Korea's nuclear violations, Agni-III should not be tested now as India would be giving a chance to its critics to project India as being on the same boat as authoritarian, lawless countries. International public opinion acts as a great moral force in determining the foreign policy of nations. This is more so as the Indo-US nuclear deal is being hotly debated not only in Washington but also across European capitals. The pro-Indian lobby has justifiably pushed forth the argument that India is a responsible nuclear state committed to the principles of democracy. Any deterioration in the strategic stability in Asia remotely linked to India's actions might result in opposition to the civilian nuclear deal in the US Congress. This might deny India access to critical dual-use technologies.

However, this is not to suggest that India abandon either testing of the Agni-III nor does it necessitate shunning our Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme. Like a great power in the making India should think big. With an aim to possessing ICBM's that can provide strategic depth in Asia and the Indian Ocean, India should use the technological insights of Agni-III and move ahead to develop the 5,000 km and beyond Surya range of missiles. As and when the strategic environment is conducive, India should test Agni-III and build upon this experience to attain precision in the ICBM range of missiles. An ill-timed move might endanger India's strategic missile programme and derail India's ultimate aim of possessing longer-range missiles. The Agni-III is a point in a long journey and not the destination.

(Views expressed are personal)

[Arun_S]

Now here is an illustrious Bharat Ki Beti to be proud of.

Missile woman
[quote]May 15, 2008

Tessy Thomas has multiple monikers. Missile Woman and Agni Putri are just a few of them.

The 45-year-old from Kerala, after all, is India’s first woman scientist to head a strategic weapons project and was also part of the elite team responsible for Agni III.

“It’s a great sense of responsibility contributing to national security,â€

[Venkarl]

I don't know why I am uncomfortable when media over projects Tessyji along with her photograph. May God protect her family especially her son "Tejas". There are many ways to trouble Indians and their interests. I guess there might be some protection to her and her family.

[Arun_S]

By that yardstick, people should live in self imposed "burka" curfew. Allah willing the fear of Islam should make the Kaafir afraid, and afraid they are to even show their face.

Fortunately she no Dhimmi, and rightly believes in living in her own country without fear or intimidation.

[arun]

TSS on Agni III, test flight number 3 :

[quote]Full of fire

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

The Indian Army will shortly acquire the Agni-III missile, which was successfully flight-tested on May 7.

THE successful launch of the Agni-III surface-to-surface ballistic missile from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa on May 7 portends two important developments. The first is that the missile, with a range of 3,500 kilometres, and successful for the second time in a row, may be inducted into the Army in 2009 after a flight trial. It is already “packagedâ€

[arun]

Development of carbon filament wound composite large rocket motor :

[quote]Composite strength


THE Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) achieved a technological breakthrough in September-October 2007 when it developed and tested a large rocket motor whose casing was made entirely of carbon filament-wound composite. The qualification and static tests were successful. The motor casing was developed indigenously by the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, a unit of the DRDO, and realised by industry.

“This is a major breakthrough because it provides us the key technology for going into longer missions [for instance, the Agni-V missile] with lighter missiles,â€

[sum]

According to informed sources, Agni-III can cover most parts of China while the soon-to-be-developed Agni-V will be able to cover all parts of China. Agni-I,

Is this true or is it just chankyan yindoo hide and seek games?
According to Arun_S saar's estimates, A-III by itself should easily cover China!!! (Doubt is because TSS quotes informed sources whereas if we were merely downplaying the range,there was no need of specifically mentioning the particular line im quoting in the article)

“If you see the landmass around India, there is no landmass other than the American continent which requires a range of more than 6,000 km. So there is no need for an ICBM. So why should you spend your resources on an ICBM unless you see a direct threat?â€

[Venkarl]

By that yardstick, people should live in self imposed "burka" curfew. Allah willing the fear of Islam should make the Kaafir afraid, and afraid they are to even show their face.

Fortunately she no Dhimmi, and rightly believes in living in her own country without fear or intimidation.

Arun Sir, I love reading your posts. I know that if I am reading Arun's post, its knowledge to me and its no-nonsense stuff. But with due respects, I didn't expect this kind of laughable response. I agree with your point Sir that India is a free nation. I am sorry if my post has mislead you to post that kind of response.

Anyways, my post's intention was to know if GoI has provided her and her family with proper protection from enemies within our nation. Thats it and not that every person of national importance should cover themselves with burkha like your graceful brain has thought.

Peace

[ramdas]

Do the TSS articles indicate that we still rely on maraging steel casings for Agni III ? with composite casing being introduced for the 3rd stage of Agni V and for future longer range missiles (provided we get out of the "5000-6000km range is enough" mode)... This seems strange. After all, ISRO has a composite upper stage in PS-3 since 1994. So , the use of carbon fibre rather than kevlar is what seems new.

Also, the remark in the second TSS article that the ultimate ambition of ASL is to have a metal free missile is strange. Does this not indicate that we are still stuck up with maraging steel casings for Agni III ? The best mass fraction I know of for such a casing is in the Ariane V booster 237/269 approx 0.88. Even the kevlar casings as in PS3 give a better mass fraction. Could it be because maraging steel casings are more immediately producible now ?

It could also be that composite motor casings were flight tested this time, and that only interstages and such need to be replaced by composite versions in order to have a metal free missile. Maybe Arun_S can clarify this.

[putnanja]

Is this true or is it just chankyan yindoo hide and seek games?
According to Arun_S saar's estimates, A-III by itself should easily cover China!!! (Doubt is because TSS quotes informed sources whereas if we were merely downplaying the range,there was no need of specifically mentioning the particular line im quoting in the article)

Remember that this is for 1500 kgs payload. As payload decreases, range increases and as per Arun_s's posts earlier, 1500 kgs is quite a high value compared to the expected payload

[Arun_S]

By that yardstick, people should live in self imposed "burka" curfew. Allah willing the fear of Islam should make the Kaafir afraid, and afraid they are to even show their face.

Fortunately she no Dhimmi, and rightly believes in living in her own country without fear or intimidation.

Arun Sir, I love reading your posts. I know that if I am reading Arun's post, its knowledge to me and its no-nonsense stuff. But with due respects, I didn't expect this kind of laughable response. I agree with your point Sir that India is a free nation. I am sorry if my post has mislead you to post that kind of response.

Anyways, my post's intention was to know if GoI has provided her and her family with proper protection from enemies within our nation. Thats it and not that every person of national importance should cover themselves with burkha like your graceful brain has thought.

Peace

With due respect to you sir, that question itself was loaded, hence my earlier response, irrespective of security cover provided to Tessy or not, the question pre-supposes that people who are director/Dy-director level upwards should live in fear of enemy nations/people. By that reason all people that had Agni-III in the backdrop as well as others that command leadership role in various DRDO, Space and Military should be provided a security cover (it is another matter that one or two secuirty guards still do not protect against even a medium motivation jihadi lunguing at the target when he/she is buying vegetables at the bazar).

It will be very funny indeed (and impractical) if the IA/IAF officers photographed during A3-D2 launch should also be provided security guard when they venture outside the cantonement area.

Defense systems/organizations are made by making it resilient to a personality/person. If someone is knocked off road accident or tumor, that department does not crumble, simply because that department is not equal to that one person. So let jihadi enemy take out one of our photo-published guys it will not deter others in the department to do what they need to do including to be photographed in the next Agni-V missile launch, nor does the department he/she was working get effected in medium/long term.

Anyway that was my point for what it may be worth to worthy brains of readers on this forum.

[vsudhir]

Spies and lowlives who are out to harm our scicom would get the info we found in fotos one way or another.

By denying our top scicom simple joys of appreciation from folks like us, we do them disservice.

Also, let such foto shoots and celebrations become commonplace. Let every unit that has contributed to a project be photographed with their accomplishment. There will soon be 1000s of fotos then, Lawd willing.

[Arun_S]

As always T.S. SUBRAMANIAN's articles worth their weight in silver. SO I would highlight important statements below.
[quote="arun"]TSS on Agni III, test flight number 3 :

[quote]Full of fire

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

The Indian Army will shortly acquire the Agni-III missile, which was successfully flight-tested on May 7.

THE successful launch of the Agni-III surface-to-surface ballistic missile from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa on May 7 portends two important developments. The first is that the missile, with a range of 3,500 kilometres, and successful for the second time in a row, may be inducted into the Army in 2009 after a flight trial. It is already “packagedâ€

[prao]

Development of carbon filament wound composite large rocket motor :

Composite strength


THE Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) achieved a technological breakthrough in September-October 2007 when it developed and tested a large rocket motor whose casing was made entirely of carbon filament-wound composite. The qualification and static tests were successful. The motor casing was developed indigenously by the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, a unit of the DRDO, and realised by industry.
... (deleted)

T. S. Subramanian

Frontline

It's a pity that that most anti-national of Indian magazines must be the one that prints the best articles on India's space, missile and scientific achievements. There must be some logic operating there no?

Prao

[Anujan]

The flight was so error-free that even during the plasma effect, which disturbs communication, telemetry was received. This meant that data were available continuously right from the missile’s launch point until it hit the waters.

Hopefully good telemetry about environmental conditions, temperature, vibrations, arming, fusing and firing. Flowers need good environment to bloom

[ramana]

SUM is most likely a gas generator and not a motor per se.

[shyamd]

On May 22, 1992, India launched its Agni missile. The Agni missile is a family of short to intermediate range ballistic missiles developed by India under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme.

-----------

[Rahul M]

^^^^^^^

[Anujan]

SUM is most likely a gas generator and not a motor per se.

Ramana-saar,
Why Gas generator ? You mean to say it is not used for propulsion ? Then why need this big a gas generator (going by Arun-saar's drawings) ? Attitude control or extending aerospike wont need that high pressures. Preventing water entry for underwater operations is about the only other thing I can think of.

[ramdas]

On the other hand, the Hindu business line has consistently said that Agni III itself is composite bodied.. whereas the TSS artcles indirectly hint at composite bodied being a future aim rather than current reality.... Which is the real situation ? Or is this kept deliberately ambiguous to confuse others ?