India nuclear news and discussion

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Sep 2008 23:28

BTW, for all those

about the NSG "victory": The ABBA song.

Down in the street they're all singing and shouting
Staying alive though the city is dead
Hiding their shame behind hollow laughter
While you are crying alone on your bed

Pity Cassandra that no one believed you
But then again you were lost from the start
Now we must suffer and sell our secrets
Bargain, playing smart, aching in our hearts

Sorry Cassandra I misunderstood
Now the last day is dawning
Some of us wanted but none of us would
Listen to words of warning
But on the darkest of nights
Nobody knew how to fight
And we were caught in our sleep
Sorry Cassandra I didn't believe
You really had the power
I only saw it as dreams you would
Until the final hour
...
I'm sorry Cassandra
I'm sorry Cassandra [/i]

EARTHSHASTER SAY: B-WARE OF YANKEES BEARING WAIVERS

As Berman showed, Indian media / opposition / establishment are predictable and can be played like monkeys on a string.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 06 Sep 2008 23:30

Suresh,

How can you say that the DAE lacks the skills to test anything ? Are you saying there is a shortage of quality physicists ? Also, without testing anything how is it possible to develop new designs ? Computer simulations cannot be trusted to tell what works and what dosent...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2008 23:32

Germany will probably make public the draft early next week with a formal announcement either in vienna or bonn.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 06 Sep 2008 23:37

Logically

Simulation should lead to stimulation to test and validate results with NSG.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Sep 2008 23:41

Gerard wrote:
Tanaji wrote:[*]If fuel supply to a safeguarded facility is interrupted for whatever reason (not necessarily a test) and it is fueled by indigenous supply, is that facility still safeguarded? I recall that AK had said "no", but is there ambiguous language on this? What does the agreement with IAEA say?
.............................................................

What about mixing and matching fuel supplies. IF one country pulls out and another does not, can India use fuel from the one that has not pulled out? Both will continue under IAEA glance.

ENR, I think, is country based.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Sep 2008 23:42

Rice presses Congress to OK India nuclear deal

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Sep 2008 23:45

NRao wrote:What about mixing and matching fuel supplies. IF one country pulls out and another does not, can India use fuel from the one that has not pulled out? Both will continue under IAEA glance. ENR, I think, is country based.

TAPS 1+2 have been fueled by the US, France, China and Russia.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 06 Sep 2008 23:53

and we gave heavy water to China

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 06 Sep 2008 23:59

Is the waiver about 1-way trade onlee (as in yindia importing N stuff) or is it also abt exporting stuff? There've been noises about Dilli agreeing to export restrictions of sorts?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 07 Sep 2008 00:06

vsudhir wrote:Is the waiver about 1-way trade onlee (as in yindia importing N stuff) or is it also abt exporting stuff? There've been noises about Dilli agreeing to export restrictions of sorts?

It is about exports too. Draft explicitly mention export of ENR and India must adhere to NSG guidelines for all exports though not a NSG member. Hence the para about consulting India.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 Sep 2008 00:13

China played spoilsport in NSG meet

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 Sep 2008 00:21

India hopes to leverage edge in reactors, thorium technology

The statement of the External Affairs Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, on Friday clearly stated India’s intentions to leverage the opportunity, with the country “interested in participating as a supplier nation, particularly for thorium-based fuel and in establishment of international fuel banks, which also benefit India.”

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Sep 2008 00:25

JS, how do you quote someone such that their name, designation on the forum, number of posts and join date etc all display as part of your quote? While I am asking this question, let me also sneak in another question no. 2 like Austria tried to sneak in more "conditions". How do you provide a link to a specific post instead of the page containing that post? so when someone clicks on the link, the new page automatically scrolls down to that post. I am sorry for OT questions but it just happened that JS quoted the 'lungi dance' post and a question exploded in my mind like POKII fizzlebums.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Sep 2008 00:29

Congratulations everyone! What a long journey from 1974! Reminds one of the Ikshvaku quest to bring the holy Ganga to Mother Earth over many generations. Similarly this quest for dejure recogniton as an NWS has happened during the tenure of many Prime Minsters. Its to the credit of Sri Manmohan Singh that this achievement has happened on his watch. Once again a well deserved kudos!

The prinicpal accomplishment of the NSG waiver is that Indian nukes are legitimate and recognised in the world power structure. This is what has brought out all that angst among the 45 NSG members. The NSG was called the London Suppliers Group and became the NSG and was formed mainly in response to India's 1974 test which created an anamolous situation vis a vis the NPT that only recognised those countries that tested nukes before 1968.

If one sees the statements of the NSG holdouts there are two groups- a non proliferation group which voted for India once thy realized the error of the situation to punish India which has an excellent track record and a proliferation group who are the holdouts. Once the NSG was created in 1978 the members were merrily transferring stuff across the board and preserving options by getting their stuff proofed in TSP and PRC.

From the narrative one can see that there is no lobby for India in any of these nuke related bodies or paltforms. The end of Cold War created the climate to create such a lobby and it was France that first saw the need to hedge the global power structure. But France is not big enough to push the system. It has to be the US. And we see that the US only reacts when presented with a fait accompli as the Israelis note. And this was completed by the NDA govt with the tests. The US stalled for they needed to move from their rigid high horse. A number of geo-politcal events since 9/11 helped them get off their high horse and see the issues from a global prespective.

To alter the NPT structure was uncharted territory and it was the Indian bureaucracy (current and former) which had the foresight to engage the US in this journey. The US was made to move from the NNPA of Carter to the Hyde Act. Yes Hyde has all the bile of the NPAs and is like a sponge to collect the ill will and negativity against India for rocking the NPT structure. Recall the NPT structure was a US initiative of the Johnson Admnistration based on the Gilpatric Commission. India pulled no stops and lobbied to let the Congress mainly Democrats and Paki-supporter Republicans put all the Hiranyakashyap conditions in the Hyde Act. This was reviled widely in India but the main point of Hyde Act is it moved the cheese from no trade with India to trade with India subject to some conditions. The charade/drama after that was to marginalize the adversarial components of Hyde act. To do this the 123 agreement with US was negotiated, the IAEA safeguards and now the NSG waiver.

The US admin at best hopes for a couple of plants as the leaked letter indicates. It cant hope for more due to the Damocles sword components of the Hyde Act. And Hyde gets to hide once the 123 is signed by the Indian govt after its passed by the US Congress.

The torture at Vienna had to be endured to allow the pipsqueak countries which have been brought up over last thirty years (NSG came into effect around 1978), because the need to preserve the NSG structure to prevent further proliferation which is also in Indian interest. It doesnt matter that others countries also benefit. Its a win-win. So long as India gets out of the cloud it doesnt matter who also gets some sunshine.

To get here a natyam had to be enacted. As there is no lobby for India the internal opposition in India had to be used as a pressure group. All the parties especially Karat had their roles to play and they did. I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself. Once it was offered and the cheese moved, it was necessary to keep the fear of a replacement to ensure that the goalposts dont get moved beyond what is tolerable to India. Yes the goal posts were moved since J18 but not so far as they are out of Indian sight and reach. Many of the steps required were what India was going to do as legitimate nuke power. India doesn't need any foreign imports for the weapons program and all those not this not that dont matter to the originators of Vedanta.

PRC did what it had to do for what was at stake was the leadership of Asia. So no hard feelings. Will take care when needed. The holdouts need to be taught their place. A special care should be taken to not place any orders for equipment or imports from those holdouts for starters.

However I dont want NZ to be puished as they were misled into beleiving the NSG BS would end the nuclear arms race. A genuine peacenik should be respected. But the Austrian neutered Nazis who were hedging the non-Norman option, should be made to pay.

The first step is to get the fuel for those plants that need it.

More later.

Lets savor the moment and celebrate!

Its August 15th, 1947 all over again.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2008 00:36

Gerard wrote:China played spoilsport in NSG meet

Sun Tzu at work…
Sabotage enemy’s flanks if you can, ask for a treaty if you can’t…

PRC did what it is known to do… no surprises there…

The real deal is GOI’s assertiveness… against the external threats like PRC and ISI and internal threats like Commis...

If GOI can extend this assertiveness into action on ground w.r.t Islamists, pseudo-secularists and Maoists… India is well poised to be a regional power in next 5 years and super-power in next 20 years…

Donate 200 or so LCAs to Burma, Sri Lanka, Bhutan,Afghanistan and Mauritius along with 100 Arjuns each… These made-in-India gems will come to use at the time of Kurkshetraa…. (total cost 4+1 = $5B)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2008 00:41

a must keep for ever note--------

"At the end of the day, the US still carries more diplomatic weight than any other country."

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Sep 2008 00:52

Ramana, I wholly agree with you but to play devil's-advocate:

1) Has our deterrent become a casualty - as per Iyengar ?
2) Has our testing ability really vanished ?

My asssessment is as follows:

1) India has demonstrated viable and reliable fission and boosted-fission capability.
2) India probably has reliable boosted-fission capability fission capability scalable to 150-200KT.
3) That capability may be reliable but has not been demonstrated via a full yield test.
4) India has significant thermonuclear weapons potential but the S-1 test did not demonstrate that capability as being reliable.
5) India may well have a viable thermonuclear weapon but again it has not been demonstrated.

I do not think I am exaggerating or being overly optimistic.

We also have to contend with the fact that India has not tested for the last 10 years and has shown no inclination to be in a rush to resume testing.

What do we make of that ?

Are we to assume BARC has been doing nothing for 10 years ? Are we to assume no sub-critical and/ or hydronuclear testing took place (despite the fact we have been talking about it since the 1980s) ?

Much depends on how we manipulate the deal. India has much to gain - as does the US. It's all in the manipulation.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Sep 2008 00:56

To get here a natyam had to be enacted. As there is no lobby for India the internal opposition in India had to be used as a pressure group. All the parties especially Karat had their roles to play and they did. I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself. Once it was offered and the cheese moved, it was necessary to keep the fear of a replacement to ensure that the goalposts dont get moved beyond what is tolerable to India. Yes the goal posts were moved since J18 but not so far as they are out of Indian sight and reach. Many of the steps required were what India was going to do as legitimate nuke power. India doesn't need any foreign imports for the weapons program and all those not this not that dont matter to the originators of Vedanta.

It looks like BJP played MMS and UPA/COngress to make sure that the deal passes with Indian red lines. Other wise this waver and Deal would be passed to India if India agreed to a NPT like clause in IAEA/HYDE Act/NSG. MMS was even ready for this since it mattered little to him.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Sep 2008 00:57

ramana wrote:Lets savor the moment and celebrate!

Its August 15th, 1947 all over again.

Precisely. Some will never forget, the other half of India that was lost, while the one half celebrated. Just like the partition, India has given up strategic autonomy for potential bread crumbs from this deal. Tomorrow, history will judge our current leaders, just as many curse the leaders of our independence, for some of their then monumental failures. The cost of these failures, will be paid by future generations.

Just My Final Thoughts.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Sep 2008 00:59

Acharya wrote: It looks like BJP played MMS and UPA/COngress to make sure that the deal passes with Indian red lines. Other wise this waver and Deal would be passed to India if India agreed to a NPT like clause in IAEA/HYDE Act/NSG. MMS was even ready for this since it mattered little to him.

Very well said and I am with you. But difficult to prove though.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Sep 2008 00:59

Sanjay. Not today.
A double pleasure is that its 6th September!
LBS crossed the IB in 1965.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Sep 2008 01:01

Yes and then the KGB killed him.
But seriously, when you have the chance, comment.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Sep 2008 01:05

Beijing 'disappoints' Delhi

NEW DELHI: China almost spoilt India's party. That will remain the lasting memory of Beijing's strategic miscalculation in opposing India's waiver at the NSG meeting.

In Delhi, National Security Adviser MK Narayanan expressed disappointment. "The Chinese foreign minister will come here and we will, of course, express disappointment. We will say that we did not expect this," Narayanan told Times Now . He added that India was surprised at China's behaviour because President Hu Jintao and PM Wen Jiabao had assured Manmohan Singh Beijing would play a constructive role.

But Narayanan remained philosophical. "We can't choose our neighbours. We have China and Pakistan and we desire the best of relations with both".

But it was a sign the Chinese whispers in Vienna could have implications for bilateral ties because a government long accused of winking at Beijing's transgressions decided to go public with its disappointment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Sep 2008 01:06

To parapharse Farida Khanum

"Aaj phir test karne ka zid na karo!"

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 07 Sep 2008 01:08

ShauryaT,

Please let it go. You stuck your neck out several times saying that the NSG waiver will be Hyde Act redux. It was not.

This is a great day for India, all of India. This also shows that the Americans are really the sole superpower. Also, BJP must now keep their traps quiet and focus on the elections, if their real intent was to keep MMS "honest." The fact is that MMS laid it on the line and came through, for all his fecklessness in other areas especially with TSP, Naxalites etc.

This is great day for India. I for one will rejoice and offer prayers for our future. I hope we can not only use our strategic space wisely, we'll also act fast to get power to the masses and work for an economic future that brings up all our countrymen, not just a privileged few. In short, keep the focus both on security and economic progress.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Sep 2008 01:10

RamanaGaru,

Sorry to nit-pick through your otherwise eloquent rendition, but can you elaborate on this:

I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself.

If all the PMs would have gone along with this deal, then what kind of nationalistic assertion by another PM in place of MMS would have been anathema to the US?

But at the end of the day, one has to admit that for despite all the legalistic nit-picking that the test claus did not appear in print, it is clear that India's strategic arsenal will at best be frozen in place. Short of testing how else can India sharpen its designs? And if there is no testing pretty much in perpetuity except under extraordinary circumstances, probablity of which is zero, what are India's options? Just a strategic subterfuge that we are ostensibly a nuke power, but no muscle to back that up beyond ambiguity and tough talk?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 07 Sep 2008 01:15

India has given up on nuclear tests

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/06ndeal13.htm

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 07 Sep 2008 01:18

A time to put politics behind (always a good time for that..)
But MMS has shown why he is PM. In the end, he weathered all the abuse and the pressure (now that you have seen what happened to the lizards and the Nazis, imagine what it must have been like b4 J18 and the 123 were finalized...) and then the tamashas in Parliament, then the garbage from the pipsqueak Nazis... and the lizards' expected sliminess, and finally the abuse with the Berman Letter..)

He kept his focus on Indian interests, and apparently was awake all through the weekend to approve the final draft.

OK, back to election campaigns and party politics, but give MMS his due. I don't agree that he is "pro-west" any more than he is "pro-commie". We see that he is "pro-anything" as long as that coincides with the Indian interest, but he can't be pulled anywhere away from the Indian Interest.

I can understand that.

Shame he has to be in today's INC with its dynastic garbage.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Sep 2008 01:24

Ramana, for a cane-cutter from Caroni like me, what does your phrase mean ?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Sep 2008 01:25

Rangudu wrote:ShauryaT,

Please let it go. You stuck your neck out several times saying that the NSG waiver will be Hyde Act redux. It was not.

Just this final one, on this issue, read 3C and 3D. I know, you will take a different view.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 Sep 2008 01:30

Britain hails landmark US-India nuclear deal

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2008 01:34

as per the link Gerard posted on french nuclear arsenal, they are scheduled to
complete a "megajoule laser facility" in 2011 that is supposed to simulate nukular
burst in a subcritical fashion. unkil has one in lawrence livermore.

does anyone know how difficult this tech is to master? did the french and brits
develop it on their own or received ToT?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Sep 2008 01:37

Unique development, says Pranab

Unique development, says Pranab
Special Correspondent

“NSG waiver a major landmark in India’s quest for energy security”

NEW DELHI: External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Saturday said the decision of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) “will open a new chapter in India’s cooperation with other countries in peaceful uses of nuclear energy.”

Asserting that the final outcome of the NSG meeting in Vienna fully met India’s expectations, Mr. Mukherjee said it was consistent with the government policy and the national consensus on disarmament and non-proliferation.

“The NSG waiver is a unique development that has been achieved in accordance with commitments given to Parliament and the people of India, and is consistent with India’s national interest,” Mr. Mukherjee said in a statement, which he read out at a press conference at his South Block office.

He was flanked by Atomic Energy Commission chief Anil Kakodkar and National Security Adviser M. K. Narayanan. The Minister expressed the government’s deep appreciation of the untiring efforts of the U.S., France, the United Kingdom and Russia throughout the process. He also appreciated the support received from the present and previous Chairs of the NSG – Germany, South Africa and Brazil.

Mr. Mukherjee said the NSG waiver would enable India to resume full civil nuclear cooperation with the international community to meet its energy and developmental requirements. It also constituted a major landmark in India’s quest for energy security.

He noted that the process, which had culminated in the NSG adopting a clean waiver, commenced three years ago with the initiative of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President George Bush through the July 18, 2005 joint statement.

He said the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) adopted an India-specific safeguards agreement this August 1, and thanked IAEA Director General Mohammed El Baradei and all members of the IAEA.

“Long journey”

“The journey has not only been long but required several steps to be taken sequentially, including intense bilateral negotiations with the members of the IAEA and NSG.” Mr. Mukherjee said.

The “landmark achievement” was the direct outcome of the vision, personal commitment and guidance provided by the Prime Minister, he pointed out.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Sep 2008 01:38

Manmohan thanks Bush; Pranab hails waiver

Manmohan thanks Bush; Pranab hails waiver
Special Correspondent

VIENNA VICTORY: External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, flanked by National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan (left) and Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar, announces the NSG waiver for India, at a press conference in New Delhi on Saturday.

NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday called up United States President George Bush and thanked him for his role in taking forward the civilian nuclear initiative and the Nuclear Suppliers Group’s (NSG) decision to adjust its guidelines to enable full civilian nuclear cooperation between India and the international community.

The two leaders expressed their belief that mutually beneficial relations between India and the U.S. were in the interest of their people, and were on a path of steady consolidation and multifaceted expansion, to which both the leaders reiterated their commitment.

Dr. Singh termed the NSG’s decision a ``forward looking and momentous decision” that marked the end of India’s decades-long isolation from the nuclear mainstream and of the technology denial regime.

“It is recognition of India’s impeccable non-proliferation credentials and its status as a state with advanced nuclear technology. It will give an impetus to India’s pursuit of environmentally sustainable economic growth,” the Prime Minister said in a statement.

Thanking the U.S. and other member countries of the NSG for their role in ensuring this outcome, he said the opening of full civilian nuclear cooperation between India and the international community would be good for India and for the world.

“We look forward to establishing a mutually beneficial partnership with friendly countries in an area, which is important for both global energy security as well as to meet the challenge of climate change,” he said.

External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, in a statement, described the NSG waiver as a “unique development” that was achieved in accordance with commitments given to Parliament and the people of India, and was consistent with India’s national interest.

Communist Party of India (Marxist) general secretary Prakash Karat said it was neither a clean nor an unconditional waiver because of the conditionalities of the Hyde Act.

“This is another surrender towards operationalising the nuclear agreement and how explicit it is will be known when the text of the NSG waiver is available,” Mr. Karat told The Hindu.

The Communist Party of India said the Prime Minister’s declaration that the NSG waiver was historic was not only premature but a “deliberate attempt to hide the adverse amendments incorporated in the final draft.”

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Sep 2008 01:39

‘A landmark decision’

‘A landmark decision’
VIENNA: A top United States official has termed the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) waiver a landmark decision that would strengthen the non-proliferation regime and tackle the global challenge of clean energy.

It was an important moment for strengthening the global non-proliferation regime, John Rood, U.S. acting Under Secretary of State for Arms Control, said.

He said the “very important” statement of External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Friday, which spoke of India’s commitment towards strengthening the non-proliferation system, played a major role in the discussions at the NSG.

Members of the NSG approached the issue in a serious manner. “Countries had particular concerns, particular historical experience but they approached the issue with the required constructive and cooperative attitude,” he said. — PTI

http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090756481000.htm

De facto nuclear power status for India: Congress
Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: The Congress on Saturday hailed the NSG decision to provide a waiver to India stating that it is a unique development that confers de facto nuclear power status to the country.

Terming it as the “greatest event in the 20th-21st century,” party chief spokesperson M. Veerappa Moily said countries that were hostile to India after New Delhi conducted nuclear tests and the P-5 (permanent five members of the U.N. Security Council) had agreed to the waiver. “We have become P-6. It is a historical event,” he said.

Mr. Moily said all the lobbies that worked against India had failed and said this was the best deal done ever by any country. He praised Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as the architect behind this agreement. Party president Sonia Gandhi gave steadfast support to the deal, he said.

Senior leader and Union Minister Kapil Sibal said the waiver showed India’s time had come. He said the development must also be seen as a milestone for the advent of global solution for challenges the world faced in the form of energy security and global warming.

Party spokesperson Manish Tiwari said 34 years after India conducted nuclear tests that it entered the nuclear club safeguarding its strategic autonomy.

He said the deal would take the country forward and meet its growing requirements of energy

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 07 Sep 2008 01:41

India's legal right to conduct N tests preserved: Kakodkar

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/06ndeal10.htm

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Sep 2008 01:42

CRamS wrote:RamanaGaru,

Sorry to nit-pick through your otherwise eloquent rendition, but can you elaborate on this:

I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself.

If all the PMs would have gone along with this deal, then what kind of nationalistic assertion by another PM in place of MMS would have been anathema to the US?

But at the end of the day, one has to admit that for despite all the legalistic nit-picking that the test claus did not appear in print, it is clear that India's strategic arsenal will at best be frozen in place. Short of testing how else can India sharpen its designs? And if there is no testing pretty much in perpetuity except under extraordinary circumstances, probablity of which is zero, what are India's options? Just a strategic subterfuge that we are ostensibly a nuke power, but no muscle to back that up beyond ambiguity and tough talk?

I agree with you. Keep this line again and again

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 Sep 2008 01:43

Rangudu wrote:
This is a great day for India, all of India. This also shows that the Americans are really the sole superpower. Also, BJP must now keep their traps quiet and focus on the elections, if their real intent was to keep MMS "honest." The fact is that MMS laid it on the line and came through, for all his fecklessness in other areas especially with TSP, Naxalites etc.

This is great day for India. I for one will rejoice and offer prayers for our future. I hope we can not only use our strategic space wisely, we'll also act fast to get power to the masses and work for an economic future that brings up all our countrymen, not just a privileged few. In short, keep the focus both on security and economic progress.

Thanks for posting this, captures my thoughts also.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Sep 2008 01:44

CRS, You need to get into the piskology of the Well off Modern Indian . Only Mark Tully does that. The thing is that depiste all that Westernization -Macaulayization, Modernism, and Positivism, the WMI leave all that at the door step when they eneter their homes. So the West can never truly believe a WMI. They dont believe the Welloff -Traditional Indian (WTI) any way so NDA types are out. However MMS with his Oxbridge education and his singing paens to British rule at his alma mater can be tursted to make sure that the deal wont be misused. The deal obtained stuff wont be used to increase or augment the weapons. Weapons will be augmented with local stuff. Thats not a worry.

Dont have angst on the test issue. When needed it will be proofed on or off the battle field. Important thing is the right has been preserved.

Pranab Mukherjee has done a very significant move with his statement. There is no linkage to shitty bitty or some such thing even if the US or whoever gets moving on it. If you go back over the language of that four letter treaty, it will come into effect only when India signs it. And to do that they have to proof the weapon configuration of S-1. So not happening despite Brajeshji's comments. It will lead to another round of 800 Lb Gorilla protests. So its better for everyone(world community) that the shitty bitty stays in its present state of suspended animation.

------------
Sanjay,Farida Khanum is noted ghazal singer from TSP (unfortunately

)

India is left with all the skinny whiners!

So she sings to her beloved "

Aaj jane ka zid an karo" (Please dont insist on leaving today!)

My paraphrase says
Please dont insist on test issues today.
Nothing hurtful. Lets savor the moment.

I do plan to address your issues.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 07 Sep 2008 01:46

Rangudu wrote:The fact is that MMS laid it on the line and came through, for all his fecklessness in other areas especially with TSP, Naxalites etc.

This is one thing that rings true to me too. PM Singh held his own.
There was a certain joy or pride in seeing that, though that does not confirm or deny whether what has happened was more out of guards placed around him or due to his initiative.

The NSG was supposed to be an easy step, though it has exposed fault lines that were quite interesting to see and may be worth exploring in the future. For the NSG waiver, we owe thanks to the US for not letting our good name run to the ground, whether or not that was their intent.

S