Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 13 Feb 2013 19:46

Aditya_V wrote:I am really wondering about the C-130J and C-17 deal prices. They aircraft look uber expensive.

Foreign Military Sales route is always more expensive - google for the reasons. Given that they are also more speedy and do not require tendering that is not always a bad thing.

snahata wrote:philip I remember your statement about this deal, that it is being done in indecent haste ( I thought the same ). You were on the money.

I just pray the ex- chief is not involved for the sake of our forces.

One understands where you are coming from but one actuallys hope he is...so long term for the sake of our forces we put an end to the Nandas and Tejinder Singhs doing stuff so flagrantly.

But one also has to take a detached view of this and mainstream agents and lobbying in order to decriminalize it - this is true of every business in the world, especially one involving govts. Better to tax these guys at 50% on their commissions.

srin · Post by **srin** » 13 Feb 2013 20:03

snahata wrote:philip I remember your statement about this deal, that it is being done in indecent haste ( I thought the same ). You were on the money.
I just pray the ex- chief is not involved for the sake of our forces.

I'm sorry, what is decent haste ? Was BAe Hawk procurement decent haste ? or LCA engine decision ? or MMRCA ?

I'm shocked and appalled at the corruption, but I don't understand how haste would tell you whether corruption was involved or not. The delay (don't care about the VVIP helo, but about fighters and arms) is damaging to our forces.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 13 Feb 2013 20:07

This will put all other deals including MMRCA into an inordinate delays and I doubt whether any big ticket deals will be signed before 2014 elections.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Feb 2013 20:09

snahata wrote:philip I remember your statement about this deal, that it is being done in indecent haste ( I thought the same ). You were on the money.
I just pray the ex- chief is not involved for the sake of our forces.

IAF is involved in technical evaluations and FET and submits the report to MoD for further negotiations for any defense deal. Their job ends there. IAF is not involved in monetary negotiations with the concerned companies after that. Its the job of MoD/PMO. This ex-chief fiasco is swinging around just to cover up for the real culprits in MoD and PMO which will not work. The kickbacks were actually included in the price negotiations.

.
I think the matter is very clear just find out the person who changed/tweaked the tender notice for chopper requirement from 18000ft to 15000ft which allowed Augusta to file in for tender with AW-101. Things will automatically start to link up together.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 13 Feb 2013 20:22

SagarAg wrote:
snahata wrote:philip I remember your statement about this deal, that it is being done in indecent haste ( I thought the same ). You were on the money.
I just pray the ex- chief is not involved for the sake of our forces.
IAF is involved in technical evaluations and FET and submits the report to MoD for further negotiations for any defense deal. Their job ends there. IAF is not involved in monetary negotiations with the concerned companies after that. Its the job of MoD/PMO. This ex-chief fiasco is swinging around just to cover up for the real culprits in MoD and PMO which will not work. The kickbacks were actually included in the price negotiations. .
I think the matter is very clear just find out the person who changed/tweaked the tender notice for chopper requirement from 18000ft to 15000ft which allowed Augusta to file in for tender with AW-101. Things will automatically start to link up together.

Let's not cherry pick what line of evidence will be the silver bullet. If SP Tyagi's cousins have been charged by a foreign investigation - which at this stage one has no grounds to doubt - there is a smoking gun. It is the same standard as after Vadra-gate implicated the Gandhis. Like in the case of Admiral Arun Prakash, just kinship with an accused will not lead to an innocent person being framed.

After all the sleaze that top brass from the services have been involved in for some time now, let's not confuse our support and affection for the services with aberrant individuals.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2013 20:26

Mihir

Are you expecting anything to come out ANY inquiry in India??

St Anthony's original inquiry found nothing - everything was peachy

now we know its not

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 13 Feb 2013 20:41

Surya, not necessarily in India. But this report is just an initial filing. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions, and drawing connections between unrelated events based on that one report.

Also, the man has been the chief of air staff, for chrissake! He isn't some two bit middleman looking to make a quick buck out of every transaction. So before we go about hinting that he's some sort of corrupt reprobate/traitor/sellout, let us ensure that we have enough evidence to do so.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Feb 2013 20:55

RajitO wrote:
Let's not cherry pick what line of evidence will be the silver bullet. If SP Tyagi's cousins have been charged by a foreign investigation - which at this stage one has no grounds to doubt - there is a smoking gun. It is the same standard as after Vadra-gate implicated the Gandhis. Like in the case of Admiral Arun Prakash, just kinship with an accused will not lead to an innocent person being framed.

After all the sleaze that top brass from the services have been involved in for some time now, let's not confuse our support and affection for the services with aberrant individuals.

This is the problem here. I don't know how SP Tyagi's cousins were involved in the scam. Were they middleman? What was their role in the deal? Wherever their role may be, even if they are involved one cannot just put the blame on SP Tyagi since he is their cousin. This is just jumping the gun.
And what is the fuss about selling the nation, black day for security forces, compromising with security going on in news channels. This was no defense deal. It was a bloody VVIP chopper deal for the GoI. Ridiculous kind of yellow journalism.

Added Later: The deal is called off.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2013 21:38

Mihir

to be fair - we jump on politicians with same level of data

we are only piling on what the Italians have disclosed.

I think the halo around senior service members has long vanished

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Feb 2013 21:42

Mihir wrote:But this report is just an initial filing.

Is it an initial filing? Haven't we head about this before?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Feb 2013 21:43

Surya wrote:Mihir

to be fair - we jump on politicians with same level of data

we are only piling on what the Italians have disclosed.

That is the bitter truth Surya ji. That is the bitter truth.
Former CAS SP Tyagi is really in a tight position considering his 3 cousin brothers are involved as middleman in the busted deal. I just hope he does not become a scrap goat. He should be investigated on the basis of his involvement and not on the basis of his relationship.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Feb 2013 21:56

this is not new news, some hint of this was raised last year i think

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 13 Feb 2013 22:47

Wasn't Tyagiji also the one who were instrumental in reducing Akash orders for IAF for more yehudi maal?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2013 23:03

well lets not go with unsubstantiated ones

this one is enough

I am expecting it to get ugly

Tyagi is hinting at his predecessor. If one is nailed the other skeletons may tumble out

Our system has no chance

Only hope is the Italians have enough to conclusively show his links

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Feb 2013 23:13

italians may be using it as collateral in the marines shooting case

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2013 23:14

to be fair to tyagi (else Mihir will scold me

)

hear his views to Arnab

http://www.timesnow.tv/Direct-No-smoke- ... 421020.cms

I find it hard to believe that warning bells did not ring when his cousins were involved in this deal.

Lalmohan

anything is possible although this started a year ago -

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Feb 2013 23:14

Honest Antoney reacts holds the payments for the deal

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Feb 2013 23:19

aha - lets hope they do what shiv suggests - put it in some playground or museum for children to play with

rather than junk it like the WG 30s

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Feb 2013 23:31

Mihir wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Any surprises that Tyagi was the Chair holder for Siachen Track-II CBM hosted by the CIA and ISI front end 'Think Tanks"???
Rohit, with all due respect, don't you think it's imprudent to cast aspersions on a former air chief simply on the basis of an Italian report? Lets wait for a deeper investigation before we jump to conclusions.

I accept that. Especially, after I saw his interview today.

I'm deleting my post. Thanks.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Feb 2013 23:39

Surya wrote:well lets not go with unsubstantiated ones

this one is enough

I am expecting it to get ugly

Tyagi is hinting at his predecessor. If one is nailed the other skeletons may tumble out

Our system has no chance

Only hope is the Italians have enough to conclusively show his links

The way I see it, Tyagi might become the figure which takes the heat off the main culprits.

As for change in specifications benefiting AW101, I don't think anything is going to come out of it. I buy ACM Tyagi's view that 18,000 feet as height requirement was a one off requirement (to cater to Fernandes) and not required generally. Crossing Zoji La and reaching Thoise would be good enough.

IMO, this to me seems one of those cases where the vendor paid simply for a deal going through - something like what is known to happens in procurement of medicines in certain areas - you simply pay a certain percentage for being given the contract. No hanky-panky in price point or quality and quantity - you simply pay to get the deal from so many vendors out there.

Though, to be honest, the commission does come from the same deal and at cost to exchequer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2013 23:53

X-post with highlights that show marks of the corruption:

Nikhil T wrote:Govt clears Rs. 4000-crore deal to buy Italian helicopters for VVIPs

New Delhi: Twelve Italian-made helicopters to fly the President, Prime Minister and other important dignitaries will arrive in India next month, with the Defence Ministry deciding not to cancel its deal with Italian company Finmenicca.

The Rs. 4,000-crore deal for AW-101 Augustawestland helicopters was under a cloud because of allegations of bribery and wrongdoing against the company. The Indian government decided to go ahead with the purchase after an internal inquiry and after the Indian Embassy in Rome was unable to substantiate any wrongdoing in the helicopter deal, sources said.

The sources told NDTV that the ministry's inquiry has revealed that although the then NDA government had, between 2002 and 2004, changed specifications and requirements, there was no "wrongdoing" or "malafide" established.

The Air Force had initially asked for choppers that could fly at about 18,000 feet. However, the then Government soon realised that only one manufacturer made helicopters that could fly to 18,000 ft. Also, it was decided, that VVIPs would rarely need to fly at such heights. And if they did, they could use other transport.

After several rounds of consultations, in which then Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister and National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra also participated, the requirement was scaled down to helicopters that flew at 13,500 feet.

"Even with the changed specifications, the Indian Air Force can fly VVIPs to locations above Leh, the capital of Ladakh," a senior official told NDTV.

Italian manufacturer Finmeccanica, a company owned by the Italian Government, was contracted for the helicopters in 2010. In 2011, allegations of bribery and wrongdoing surfaced in Italy against the company. The Italian Government is investigating these allegations.

The Indian government, sources said, had asked the Indian Embassy in Rome to monitor the investigations in Italy to check if there was anything related to the Indian purchase. The embassy, sources said, had reported that it had not found anything to suggest that the sale of AW-101 helicopters to India was rigged.

Defence Minister A K Antony was briefed about the reasons for the change in requirements and also that there was no material evidence to support allegations of bribery in this deal, sources said.

Sources told NDTV that Mr Antony was advised that since the deal was initiated by the BJP-led NDA government, the contract could be cancelled even at this late a stage. But the minister refused to cancel the deal.

Last week, the Defence Ministry told Parliament that an "integrity clause" - which prohibits the manufacturer from paying commission or using middlemen - had been built into the contract. This will allow India to take action against the company if allegations of wrongdoing are proved at any time.
This sure got cleared fast. Such alacrity by Antony in the middle of the Parliament session, without any serious investigation?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Feb 2013 23:55

Austin wrote:Honest Antoney reacts holds the payments for the deal

That's about it.(Courtesy Italian investigation). Nothing more will happen on this case further as it is given to CBI for further investigation.
Antony

: No one will be spared (as no one will be caught

)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 00:00

In the helicopter case the facts are:
- Deal was initially setup by NDA.
- Took till 2010 to decide to go thru
- Indian Emmbassy which never finds anything wrong with anybody and issues visas to terrorists gavve clean chit
- AKA went ahead after that and the integrity clause

How was he to know there is INC at the back end as in all arms deals? And it will get revealed in two months!
The amount of bribe $640M is to times Bofors.

SG has really graduated.
Stealing from her own homeland and sasural.

ACM SK Tyagi is a bakra and careless to allow his name to be associated.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 14 Feb 2013 00:30

ramana wrote:In the helicopter case the facts are:
- Deal was initially setup by NDA.What is your angle Ramana garu ?
- Took till 2010 to decide to go thru 10 Years to decide 12 choppers. What was GoI evaluating all this time. Someone on some news channel told 2-3 years were taken by GoI to decide toilet in chopper so that VVIP can stand and pee.
- Indian Emmbassy which never finds anything wrong with anybody Athithi Devo Bhava and issues visas to terrorists gavve clean chit
- AKA went ahead after that and the integrity clause

How was he to know there is INC at the back Even an angutha chaap like me knows that end as in all arms deals? And it will get revealed in two months!IMHO Ghanta anything will be revealed in 2 months.
The amount of bribe $640M is to times Bofors.

SG has really graduated.
Stealing from her own homeland and sasural.

ACM SK Tyagi is a bakraNo doubt about it and careless to allow his name to be associated.

PS: Saw PV Naik talking on this issue after a long time. Its always a treat to hear his Lion's roar.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 14 Feb 2013 01:13

There are three main issues coming up which cause the RFP to be changed.

1. SPG personals' height and their weapons accommodation in chopper. This change happened in 2006.
2. Max altitude till where chopper can go. Which they say brought down from 18k to 15k to widen competition.(Which they say reason given to brought down altitude is that VVIP won't go to all high altitude places.) This change happened in 2003.
3. Number of engine limit increase to three to give benefit to AgustaWestland.

-Ankit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 01:56

SagarG, AKA thought this is a clean deal. The specs were reduced to allow more firms to compete in stead of single vendor situation. This was done in 2003 before UPA came to power. So he thought it was clean.

My comment about two month is related to the post. It was posted in Dec 2012 and two months later its revealed to be a scam by Italy.

One thing to wonder about is what was the Indian Embassy doing? Did it not get wind of the scandal and appraise the New Delhi?

Shouldn't the Military attache have contacts in Italian MOD and the firms that deal with India? Just time pass?

Pioneer on ACM Tyagi's remarks

http://dailypioneer.com/home/online-cha ... ation.html

"I am innocent. These allegations are totally baseless and I am denying them categorically. The deal was signed in 2010 whereas I retired in 2007 itself," he said.

Yet the Italian company thought it was paying him or someone related to him who was using his name.

A perfect scapegoat who didn't even know he was being setup.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Feb 2013 01:58

All the middlemen in defence deals are bhai-bandhu types of the top brass (active or retired) . I am not at all surprised by this even in the Submarine war room leak case we saw the same. From what I have seen first hand; only jaan-pehchaan wallahs can become middlemen .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 02:02

Ind Express....

Monthly payments from 2007 till Dec 2012

The Italian investigation report into the VVIP AgustaWestland chopper scam has alleged that part of the Euro 51 million kickbacks that were allegedly paid came in the form of monthly remittances that were disguised as payments made for engineering contracts.

Italian investigators have managed to piece together evidence that at least Euro 21 million was paid through engineering contracts on a monthly basis between 2007 and 2011. The payments were allegedly made through two companies – IDS India and IDS Tunisia.

The report says money was paid partly through a 'consultancy contract between AW and Gordian Services Sarl (a company which is attributable to them)' and later engineering contracts.

''They signed engineering contracts with companies IDS India and IDS Tunisia, to cover up the payment (still underway) of money to pay Indian public officials and the mediators Haschke and Gerosa (the two Switzerland based middlemen), in an economic operation in which compensations for mediations were not allowed," the report says.

As per the records mentioned in the report, a monthly payment of Euro 510,000 was being made to the IDS companies and that no taxes were being paid on the same. The report has detailed list of payments modes made and says the payments continued till as late as December 2012.

So what was the RBI doing? No one was monitoring the money flow?

And the payments were being made way before the contract was singed in 2012!

So whats going on?
Were the payments an advance for getting the contract from 2007 itself!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 02:07

The INC is not leaving anything without taking a big cut from it.

Salman Kurshi* steals from handicapped.
Raksha Mantri's cronies steal before contract is awarded.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2013 02:08

ramana wrote:Please discuss corruption issues in the right thread. Thanks, ramana

Ramana garu,
That corruption could have decided the fate of Siachen track-II diplomacy, which is a possible case here. Corruption is only a illegal means/tools is towards achieving a goal.

Both the means (corruption) and how they affected goals (Siachen and thus security of India) should be discussed, instead of pigeonholing discussions into artificial boxes..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Feb 2013 02:16

from the pioneer article

"So I want to tell you two-three things - Air Headquarters cannot change requirements. It is not a general store, there is a system. The system is Air Headquarter can recommend but cannot approve," the former Air chief said.

Strictly speaking yes, but the AHQ have a veto power, i.e. defence ministry will not go against an explicit recommendation from AHQ.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 02:37

AKA "Guilty wont be spared"

But first will they be caught?

Coverup Bureau of Investigation to probe the matter.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Feb 2013 02:39

Indian Express claims to have a copy of the prosecution report, but our embassy in Rome hasn't been able to get their hands on it yet!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 02:40

Ind Embassy has lead assed staffers. Unless there is a cocktail they wont move.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 14 Feb 2013 02:46

DRI CBI IB these are organizations for making money and plum posts

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 14 Feb 2013 02:54

In defence deals the most corrupt deal is the longest ones. I have had first hand experience watchin this.
Each vendor tries to influence through its Inidan agent/ branch office / partner, there are groups with in groups of the procurement agency/ organization, each of them aligns with one of the vendor or some toimes two, first start with regular cocktail parties, seminars, faclity touring sponsorship....
then start the tender (is the ) process, if the requirements are skewed or one cant meet then change is made to requirements very gently and lately....

this drags on till some 2 or 3 years before elections, then you take the funds (you have a situation you dare or you lose)

the longer the more fun for all from draughtsmen engineer to ecxecutives officers and politicos...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Feb 2013 03:01

Rohit

i read it the other way
the fact that he confidently wants a CBI inquiry makes me feel there is some validity to it

again the only hope is the italians for whatever reason are pursuing this

all out inquiries are just a sham

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 14 Feb 2013 03:02

So all this for Agusta Waste land ( as my Gujrathi friends like to pronounce)

the moment the word Land is seen all big bosses eyes light up..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2013 03:28

From the article that Shiv posted above, its by Manu Pubby dated October 2012 i.e is way before the deal got signed in Dec 2012!

Officials are morons and will take years to track the links

Indian officials are ‘morons’, will take years to track links, middlemen
|Manu Pubby : New Delhi, Tue Oct 30 2012, 09:45 hrs

So how and why did AKA sign the go ahead in Dec 2012?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1373598

Was he on some medication?
And the Ind Embassy on which they were relying?
The fatal flaw of the middlemen was they were protecting from Indian officials(who are anyways instructed to not find anything by the politicians) while they were under surveillance by Italian govt!!!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Feb 2013 03:30

Snahata,I wish I was "IN" the money!

Here's a ditty,from a witty:

Oh to be a Congressman,
Loot is everywhere,
Just leave it to MohanMan,
Singh,doesn't ever care!

Pad the prices robber barons,
Spread the jam on real thick,
Congresswallahs know all the cons,
And can teach you every trick!

Syngh and Sonja,what a pair!
They do the business for the party,
A firang bean counter - an Eytie au pair,
Keeping Congress purses hale and hearty.

From 2-G,Antrix and the coal scam,
MohanMan's game is loot and scoot,
Never get caught,always sham,
Let Raja and Kalmadi get the boot!

So fall in line Congressmen,
Lets have a ball,come to the party ,
There's unlimited loot ad nauseum,
For the loyal serfs of the gand** dynasty!

PS:As for the C-17 and C-130J,the former was ordered in great haste to keep Boeing's C-17 production line open,which was about to close.The IL-476,upgraded IL-76, is in production and has served us well.It would've been enough for our needs.The C-17 has brought us into the list of logistic "fellow travellers",a back door (don't Congresswallahs love the "back door"),of the US's military allies.It is really meant for intercontinental missions,to ferry Indian troops to hot spots worldwide,easing the "burden" of the white man in the wars he has started but cannot stop! This is the "great white hope",that we send millions of our soldiers as we did in the two WWs,to fight in those foreign fields in wars not of our making,but for Uncle Sam and Co.

The C-130J comes from Lockheed's stable,a company famous for its "stable" of parties who have benefited from its largesse,esp,from the land of Nippon.No grouse about its capabilities,great bird,simply phenomenal run in production,easily the best ever multi-role transport after WW-2's famous "Gooney Bird".