Indian Missile Technology Discussion

[asbchakri]

Where is the Khyberdurra Mullah Mijjileulla? May be hiding in Khyberdurra. The pious birathers are waiting to hear pious Khutbah from this Adminullah. Also the bious expects to see the bicture of SRDE Shaurya standing alongside TFTA Agni-I with the Lahori logic and Madrasa maths as usual.

maybe he is gathering info and working on that to come to a perfect Logical sensible conclusion of what the hell was that the DRDO just fired up, so that we all can stop guessing around.

Please rise from the Khyberdurra O_Mullah Mijjileulla the pious birathers are waiting

[babbupandey]

Yes, I agree.
Only he can shed some light here...

[abhischekcc]

Hi guys,

Reading the various reports, and the characteristics of the missile, I am getting the impression that the missile will be the foundation of an Indian version of the dead hand system.

The talk of cannisterisation implies that the missile is low maintenance - suitable for a dead hand system.

The dead hand system ensured deterrence by gauranteeing a nuclear response from the USSR, even if the entire leadership was dead.

We need such heavy insurance only against China, not pakistan.
So, since the missile range is not long enough to cover most of China - expect more missile tests of the same type with longer range in the months to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hand_(nuclear_war)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-deadly

[p_saggu]

Another James Bond scenario - not wrt the shaurya system.
How about a land based ballistic missile with highly maneuverable MIRV's to take out an entire group of ships?
There would be very little defense against such fast moving missiles which would come in nearly vertically.

[hnair]

They have got a cannisterized short range missile battery of 4 or 6 missiles in a block, that can be dropped off by helicopter or C130 and then remotely targetted and fired. I think those are for 250 km range IIRC and it looked very compact when they showed it on Discovery Future Weapons. This is nowhere near the size of our missiles, it looked like a 6x6x6 ft block which can be fitted onto the back of a Humvee.

That I think was a remote operated VL of NLOS-LS with a 40km range. The missiles itself looks like an ER version of EFOGM. The only 250km range missiles they showed (in another segment) were from the ATACMs family, which needs really big MLRS vehicles and has a bigger diamter than NLOS.

[krishnan]

Looks more like a chinese movie scenario

[jamwal]

Any news regarding Umreeki, Chinky or Paki response?



OT: One cousin of mine recently celebrated his 1st birthday..his folks call him Shourya

[Austin]

Hi guys,

Reading the various reports, and the characteristics of the missile, I am getting the impression that the missile will be the foundation of an Indian version of the dead hand system.

The talk of cannisterisation implies that the missile is low maintenance - suitable for a dead hand system.

The dead hand system ensured deterrence by gauranteeing a nuclear response from the USSR, even if the entire leadership was dead.

We need such heavy insurance only against China, not pakistan.
So, since the missile range is not long enough to cover most of China - expect more missile tests of the same type with longer range in the months to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_hand_(nuclear_war)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-deadly

Dont worry our Netas can survive a Nuclear Strike ..........they are worst than roaches ........so we dont need Dead Hand

[abhischekcc]

OT: One cousin of mine recently celebrated his 1st birthday..his folks call him Shourya

---------
Hey, lay off folks. I don't claim to be an expert in missiles, only on China

I am waiting for the missile man from Khyber Durra to come and moderately enlighten us.

[Arun_S]

Where is the Khyberdurra Mullah Mijjileulla? May be hiding in Khyberdurra. The pious birathers are waiting to hear pious Khutbah from this Adminullah. Also the bious expects to see the bicture of SRDE Shaurya standing alongside TFTA Agni-I with the Lahori logic and Madrasa maths as usual.

maybe he is gathering info and working on that to come to a perfect Logical sensible conclusion of what the hell was that the DRDO just fired up, so that we all can stop guessing around.

Please rise from the Khyberdurra O_Mullah Mijjileulla the pious birathers are waiting

Ahhhhhhhhh it had to happen when I was in "Kumbha karna" sleep and away from the www due to significantly higher duties at hand. KhyberDurra just got to be tougher place, teaching Vedanta to kufr musalmann around. Pls forgive my brief reply, I have not slept more than few hrs last many days.

Fantastic!! Congratulations to Bharat & DRDO.

Shaurya confirm the projections made on this forum that it is member of new standard family of soild fuelled missile whose many versions will serve diverse needs that will be made in high qty.

I wonder what was the need to replace the Agni-1 type, more range perhaps ?

Rahul, check the diameter difference between the Agni-1 and K-15 missiles. The K-15 is a lot thinner and compact. I am guessing it has a lot to do with the advancement in materials technology since the days of Agni-1 design work that allows for such changes. So now you have a missile that is much more compact and therefore easier to handle but with roughly the same range. But having said that, the Agni-1 would still be needed to bridge the gap between Agni-2 and Shaurya series etc.

Agni-I has a range of 800Km to 1200Km & Shourya has a range of 650Km . How do you say Shourya will replace Agni-I?

The reason the smaller lighter Shaurya missile meets and exceeds Agni-1 on payload vs range, is not so much new fuel technology, but the result of being a 2.5 stage missile as against the single stage quick-fix called Agni-1.

There is no doubt that this missile is will deliver 1000 Kg payload to well over 600 - 700 Km distance. IMHO this confign can easily deliver 1300 Kg to 700 km, or 1000 Kg to >1300 Km. That is more than Agni-1. Now consider of what this 2.5 stage missile will do with a singleton 17kt boosted fission weapon weighing just 150Kg, or a 500kg high yield N weapon, to appreciate why this 700km range missile is a China specific missile ?

After a very long delay one can now for the first time see new, much smaller RV atop the missile. One can estimate the payload envelop from that, and relate it candidates listed in BR Agni- missile page.

Does not seem to have seperating re-entry stage (??)

This is a new type of RV.

The nose cap is significant, because that makes the missile "wooden round" & robust handling, apart from making it more tamper proof which is specially important when carrying nuclear payload. Definitely makes the storage and transport easier. Added benefit is that it enables reliable and cheap fielding of dummies to keep enemy guessing.

The red/orange exhaust during launch is part of reaction control system that is very crucial for correction during initial few tens of seconds (when fins are not yet effective). It also indicates the booster rocket motor is not flex nozzle. Notice it sports 2 sets of fins (second fin set clearly useful for high deflection), clearly indicating its ability to draw significant torque for large correction. I.e. ability to launch in high winds, or sub-surface cold gas launch.

My thoughts exactly. The low placed fins show that this is a highly maneuverable system with a likely very very low CEP.

Low placed fins help tighter control the energy/impulse budget for the solid fueled missile, thus plays a crucial role in target CEP .

Interesting to note the report that it was test fired from a 13 m deep underground silo, but the launch pad/tower can be also clearly seen.

Need to get some sleep now.

[Nitesh]

check the video, 2 more tests this year:

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/toishow ... 704595.cms

[Philip]

It now looks that Shourya fills an important gap in our missile inventory.For shorter ranges we have Prithvi and Brahmos,approx.300-500km if smaller warheads are used,with the next being the 1000km range Agni.The short range tactical missiles to be effective against enemy formations and strongpoints/command centres,would have to be located around 100km of the border in some cases,making them more vulnerable than if located further away.Brahmos developed with Russia conforms to the MTCR regime and thus its development is nwo confined to a hypersonic version,as longer ranges cannot be developed without Russia infringing upon its international obligations.In addition,the small size of this missile makes it very easy to conceal,under a haystack,barn/farm buildings,etc.,virtually undetectable by satellite.

The advantage that China has with regard to superior infrastructure and access to the border with India from Tibet,plus its massive missile arsenal,makes it imperative that India has an immediate reaction capability to destroy/halt any advance from the north through massed missile attacks that can be located without fear at convenient locations,almost immune to detection and attack.The containerisation of the missile in its silos,makes maintenance again almost negligible.The similarities with the K-15 are clear.Perhaps they share the same type of TN warhead.So in effect,we have a kind of "second strike" capability both on land and at sea,along with the mobile rail Agni missiles.Once the ATV arrives,the triad will be complete along with these extra options.Three cheers for the DRDO/rocket scientists,who are stretching the boundaries of Indian missile technology.If this success can be replicated in the various other weapon systems under development and those which are delayed,we will have achieved a major milestone

[Singha]

by attaching a SRAM (short range attack motor ) to the A1/Sharya type RV, is it
feasible to power it down and increase the RV speed from today's mach8-10 range to
a ICBMish Mach20?

[NRao]

Arun_Sji,

Me being a little daft, I have a question to;

Now consider of what this 2.5 stage missile will do with a singleton 17kt boosted fission weapon weighing just 150Kg, or a 500kg high yield N weapon, to appreciate why this 700km range missile is a China specific missile ?

What does this mean for "testing nukes"?

Please answer in Indian nculear thread.

Thanks

[ramana]

Read his post again. He is stating what is already verified. The higher yield will have to be proofed either in test grounds or battle field.

[p_saggu]

I think more important is what he doesn't mention. The BIG one. He is convinced of the status of the BIG ONE.

[svinayak]

I think more important is what he doesn't mention. The BIG one. He is convinced of the status of the BIG ONE.

How did you figure this out

[p_saggu]

Acharya-ji,
Arun_S in the Agni missile page talks about the Fission, the Boosted Fission and the full TN weapon.
Of late, he has consistantly stated that he doubts that the TN is not proofed and that the only test did not meet the requirements from which a verified TN may be fielded.
Since no open source will "ever" confirm this, we, the peasents have to go by what the Gurus on BRF say.
(My belief is that You, Ramana, Arun_S, Shiv et.al know of things to much much more than to the extent you write here. And I understand and respect that.)
So maybe it is a slip of tongue by Arun_S, for when he fails to include the TN in this instance, it is glaring enough.
Or maybe not

[NRao]

Read his post again. He is stating what is already verified. The higher yield will have to be proofed either in test grounds or battle field.

The point being, will the tested yields ALONG with accurate missiles suffice (increase in range is icing)? IF it does, then there is really no urgency to test, since there is credible deterrence. To validate a larger yield India can rely on Gates continuing on - for a year or more.

[Arun_S]

Read his post again. He is stating what is already verified. The higher yield will have to be proofed either in test grounds or battle field.

The point being, will the tested yields ALONG with accurate missiles suffice (increase in range is icing)? IF it does, then there is really no urgency to test, since there is credible deterrence. To validate a larger yield India can rely on Gates continuing on - for a year or more.

No, that is the reason IMO this missile test means little w.r.t meeting Indian deterrence requirements; which is a chariot with 2 wheels, Agni/Sharuya is one wheel of the chariot, the other wheel is hummmmm .... scooter wheel.

17Kt weapon (no matter how accurate it is) will not fill in the role required to be served by high yield weapon.

JM 2 NP

[Gerard]

Shourya missile cannot be easily detected

The “Shourya” missile that was test-fired successfully on Wednesday “flew at five times the speed of sound, that is Mach 5, for 300 km” of its 600-km range, according to M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister. Its velocity gradually tapered off during the remaining 300 km of its flight and then it plunged vertically over the targeted site in the Bay of Bengal.

What was outstanding about the Shourya’s success was the performance of its indigenous navigation system with the help of a ring-laser gyroscope,

As it reached its maximum speed, it led to the missile heating up to 700 degrees Celsius. To cool the missile, it was rolled. “We did a rolling manoeuvre which gives uniform heat to the missile,”

W. Selvamurthy, Chief Controller (R&D), DRDO, said the Shourya missile provided the country with “a second strike capability” because it was a variant of the under-water launched K-15 missile (Sagarika). “

although the Shourya needed a silo with a maximum depth of 50 metres to lift off, it could be launched from 30-metre deep silos.

[SaiK]

two important points from Gerard's link

While about 2,000 degrees Celsius was generated when Agni series of missiles re-entered the atmosphere, only several hundred degrees Celsius was generated during Shourya’s re-entry.

W. Selvamurthy, Chief Controller (R&D), DRDO, said the Shourya missile provided the country with “a second strike capability” because it was a variant of the under-water launched K-15 missile (Sagarika). “We can keep the missile in a secured position [silo] to carry either conventional or nuclear warheads,” Dr. Selvamurthy said.

we can think off about 50 silos on Indo-Pak border, and 5 times more on the n-e side.

[ramana]

Gerard, Its an aero-ballastic like Prithivi. Thats why its re-entry heat is not as high as a pure ballastic vehicle. This also means its not a separating re-entry. Wonder why they chose that. But a lot of progress in controls when they can use a solid rocket motor like that.

[SaiK]

To cool the missile, it was rolled. ..“We did a rolling manoeuvre which gives uniform heat to the missile,”

for reduced IR signature?

[Baljeet]

Gerard, Arun_s
It is reported this missile needs 50 mt silo depth but it can be launched from 30mt silos if needed. Here are my thoughts.
1. 30-50mt depth silos are basically safe from any kind of nuclear strike--hence scientists proclaimation it is a 2nd strike capability is ironclad. More so if this is any indication it can be said Indian ATV will be firing missiles from that depth, the cap on this missile test does give some inclination of things to come.
2. It is ideally suited for our Eastern Border and western border in kashmir, Himanchal, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan. Hissar, Sirsa, Bhatinda, Jalandhar, are at ideal distance away from western border to launch crippling strike. In moutain areas we have natural silos.
3. The best part of this missile has been the Navigation System, RLG. I recall JCAGE did allude to it while back. This development is more meaningful than anything else.


All in all a great milestone.

[Singha]

but if the final speed is < mach5 , doesnt it make it a easier prey for ABM SAMs?

mach10 is where one can start to feel safe from such pests.

[Arun_S]

Shourya missile cannot be easily detected- T.S. Subramanian TOI

This report is loaded with lot of info that can give insight to the "Khaadag" (Hindi for Sword) of Shaurya. Firing it intentionally at such low elevation that the flight is largely <100Km altitude shows mastery in many dimensions and its potential is many diff types of flights paths. Apart from totally masking its range in ballistic flight. Welcome to Indian Samanya (Standard) Missile (ISM).

Gerard, Arun_s
It is reported this missile needs 50 mt silo depth but it can be launched from 30mt silos if needed. Here are my thoughts.
1. 30-50mt depth silos are basically safe from any kind of nuclear strike--hence scientists proclaimation it is a 2nd strike capability is ironclad.

No boss just because it is India does not change the laws of gravity. When silo based missiles of western countries are considered a dud concept (also is inviting first strike) due to the tremendous improvement in missiles accuracy globally in last few decades, how can 30 meters deep silo give protection to the missile and also allow it to launch from its silo while top cover of silo is already damaged/destroyed from first strike?

[vavinash]

The “Shourya” missile that was test-fired successfully on Wednesday “flew at five times the speed of sound, that is Mach 5, for 300 km” of its 600-km range, according to M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister. Its velocity gradually tapered off during the remaining 300 km of its flight and then it plunged vertically over the targeted site in the Bay of Bengal.

Very clear hint that the range is far in excess of 600 km. Other than lesser RCS is there any advantage of plunging down vertically like NAg ATGM??

[ramana]

When it plunges vertically it experiences max Q that is forces.So they proofed the RV

[Anujan]

Shourya missile cannot be easily detected- T.S. Subramanian TOI

This report is loaded with lot of info that can give insight to the "Khaadag" (Hindi for Sword) of Shaurya. Firing it intentionally at such low elevation that the flight is largely <100Km altitude shows mastery in many dimensions and its potential is many diff types of flights paths. Apart from totally masking its range in ballistic flight. Welcome to Indian Samanya (Standard) Missile (ISM).

Arun-saar,
1. More importantly, is it a separating warhead ?
2. The missile is thin, can the warhead be MIRV'ed (is there any concept of RVs placed in tandem)
3. If not, why the 1 tonne payload ?

[Kanson]

30 feet is roughly 10m, the length of the missile. It is tested from 40 feet pit and it can be used in a pit upto 50 feet in depth, as per news. Remaining height is filled with lose soil/gravel erasing any visual signs. Anywhere, anytime, the missile could be buried in a canisterised form, that removes the elaborate operations/maintenance needed for silo based missile. Characteristic of the missile could be poping out from the ground clearing the soil above it.

[Kanson]

After the Shourya was fired from its canister, it rose to a height of 50 km and then flew horizontally to reach its targeted site. As it reached its maximum speed, it led to the missile heating up to 700 degrees Celsius. To cool the missile, it was rolled.

the speed is Mach 5...hmm...Anyone like to comment on that.

[Austin]

Shouyra seems to follows the same trajectory as Prithvi does , spending all the time in atmosphere , make its flight a very controlled , tailored one an achievement for solid fuel missile.

This should be an accurate missile , but also vulnerable to systems like AAD.

Can it make a pure Ballistic flight ?

[geeth]

>>>but if the final speed is < mach5 , doesnt it make it a easier prey for ABM SAMs?

Mach 5 at what altitude? What is the reaction time available for the ABM?

A warhead falling from thousands of kilometres can be tracked comparatively easier than that at a lower altitude like this missile. That is why this missile has a horizontal flight path, to ensure a sure shot at the target.

Anyway, not everything will be revealed about this toy, particularly since it a back up toy.

[Arun_S]

Also interesting to see in Shourya the next type of multi-stage rocket that does not use the Agni-style truss based inter stage, this time the inter stage is well covered.

Putting in my preliminary estimate for this 2.5 stage missile the range for 17kt payload is far in excess of 2000 km (~ 3K km).

One can now understand the agony filled 10 years, when Agni production rate was seen to be agonizingly slow. Investing the money in mass produced Samanya Missile with 0.5m diameter and other with 1.2m had its own rewards. I await show time for Agni2-AT (now headed by Ms Thomas).

[ramana]

Arun_S

Also interesting to see in Shourya the next type of multi-stage rocket that does not use the Agni-style truss based inter stage, this time the inter stage is well covered.

So separation cutting is by shaped charge or det cord. Probably the former.

[geeth]

Few years back there were reports of US intelligence tracking a Russian ICBM taking a peculiar flight path. Instead of a ballistic trajectory, its flight path for a considerable time was horizontal. At that time it was speculated that Russians probably were testing Scramjet technology.

[k prasad]

I had a small idea that maybe we're just starting to see the next line of Indian workhorse missiles here.... after all, Prithvi, first tested in '88, is a somewhat older and bulkier design with its own disadvantages, and maybe the Shourya is the first indication of a Prithvi replacement, in terms of an effective and easily deployable missile for all applications - naval, submarine, land-mobile and land-silo based systems.

Possibly, with the K-15 program coming to conclusion by 2012-14, we could start seeing a pull-back of Prithvi's by then and an introduction of Shourya's as the replacements.

I'm not convinced about why we need silos.... maybe the gurus can write a nice explanation for this, especially considering that silos were somewhat obsolete, especially considering that once they're detected, the advantages are lost... and Selvamurthy's claim that a silo is more stealthy than a rail or road mobile system seemed a little suspicious to me.... our scientists are obviously keeping most of their cards close to their chest, and IMO, i think the true use of the Shourya hasn't been told.

Additionally, even though its smaller than the prithvi, the 600 km range should be a great advantage don't you think?

What sez??

[vavinash]

Isn't brahmos enough for prithvi replacement? If Arun is correct then this missile can actually replace Prithvi-III (350 km) and Agni-1 (1200 km). Agni-II AT and Agni-V should make up India's future missile regiments for the army.

[Singha]

this talk of silos is probably psyops. no reason not to use a brahmos type TEL for this
puppy.