Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 02 Nov 2011 17:49

Dipanker wrote: And it took US 10 years, nearly a $1 trillion, and about 2000 US soldiers lives to reach to this "US interest" stage???

You are painting the Americans like they are complete morons!

Yes I am, and they are complete morons in some respect. A country that needs "bad guys" all the time to keep alive its machismo spirit is a moron country. That does not mean its not a moron, rather a genius, in many, many other respects.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Nov 2011 17:51

Flash: Pakistan cabinet approves MFN Status for India.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 02 Nov 2011 17:56

Altair wrote: Why B-52's? Does India lack the military capacity to pull that off? We may not have B-52's but we can do just as much damage if not more. I am sure many BRFites agree with my assessment. IAF can pound Rawalpindi and Islamabad with our "existing" armed force levels itself. Forget future acquisitions.
My point is India is just as equally militarily capable of bringing Pakistan to the knees as US of A.. However,US is just as equally afraid of a JDAM as India if TSPA is pushed too hard. So,finally, India and US are both doing the same thing. Letting TSPA survive another day till it dies of natural causes. Whatever ill intention US had to keep them alive is extinguished now.

Wrong, totally wrong. I empathize with SDREs, Iam a proud SDRE, a proud Indian American, and I can tell you, NO India does not have that capability. No country that has endured the kind of perfidy from TSP that India has would so pathetically beg it for peace if it did have the capability to punish TSP. But of course, there are lots of other ways to punish TSP IMO which India's WKKs and traitors don't want to pursue. Their grip is more with India's Hindu civilizational heritage than anything TSP does to India. As for JDAM, the fears are overblown. Transfer of fissile material, know how etc, yes. And are you telling me that as long as US gives TSP nuke and other parity with India, TSPA won't keep their end of the bargain, past nuke peddling notwithstanding?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 02 Nov 2011 18:13

CRamS wrote: Wrong, totally wrong. I empathize with SDREs, Iam a proud SDRE, a proud Indian American, and I can tell you,
[1]NO India does not have that capability.
[2]No country that has endured the kind of perfidy from TSP that India has would so pathetically beg it for peace if it did have the capability to punish TSP.
[3]But of course, there are lots of other ways to punish TSP IMO which India's WKKs and traitors don't want to pursue. Their grip is more with India's Hindu civilizational heritage than anything TSP does to India.
[4]As for JDAM, the fears are overblown. Transfer of fissile material, know how etc, yes. And are you telling me that as long as US gives TSP nuke and other parity with India, TSPA won't keep their end of the bargain, past nuke peddling notwithstanding?

CRamS
[1] We have diametrically opposite opinions. cant help there!
[2] India endured the most pain. I agree. But lack of military capability to punish Pakistan is just nonsense. Pakistan would have occupied Kashmir if our capability was in question. I guarantee that.
[3] You want to punish Pakistan in other ways like tonsuring and cutting foot nails? It will not cause pain to Pakistan.
[4] Again, I disagree. Pakistan does not keep any end of any bargains. It is the first lesson you of all must know. They believe in the concept that "New bargains can be made if existing ones are made void and better deals can be made if we null existing ones". This has been a fact of the matter between US and Pakistan since 50's.
You are mixing Anglo-Saxon deal making mentality with pakbarians!
Altair

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 02 Nov 2011 18:25

SSridhar wrote:Flash: Pakistan cabinet approves MFN Status for India.

SS Sir, please refer to our discussion many moons ago. This was going to happen.

Transit to Afghanistan is next. May be by March / April 2012 provided not much damage to H&D of Pakistan and of course if PPP survives past Nov / Dec 2011...

Transit route question will also depend on Turkey's continual support to India in settling Iran bills.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 02 Nov 2011 19:09

SSridhar wrote:Flash: Pakistan cabinet approves MFN Status for India.

This is US pressure working for so called New Silk Road. How far Indian establishment willing to go is to be seen.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Nov 2011 19:21

I should point out again that the price of onions is an election issue in India and governments have changed hands over it. In contrast, there seems to be no amount of economic pain that causes the Pakistani leadership to pause for thought. This is because the mango abdul is at best cannon fodder for this leadership. The mango abdul has been taught to regard religious issues as being much more important than economic issues. "Punishing Pakistan" has to be understood in this light.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Nov 2011 19:44

It is not a question of whether we can do real damage to Pakistan. Of course we can! It is always a question of whether we can take the damage from Pakistan in an all out war! It is also a question of whether people in power in India think there is a better way of dealing with Pakistan.

Some feel that keeping India on a trajectory of higher growth, social stability, cultural vitality, technological advancement, and military buildup would some day help us put so much distance between us and them, that the Pakistanis are forced to accept Indian preeminence and accept the necessity to align themselves with India rather than stand against us.

In the mean time, the thinking is that it should be India's effort to play for time by keeping Indo-Pak relations steady and occasionally giving in to Pakistani concerns, providing Pakistanis a stake in the Indian growth story, and integrating Pakistanis into the Indian cultural space, through bollywood, media, sports, political exchanges, etc..

In this thinking the Dehyphenation of India from Pakistan is of utmost importance. India would continue to provide Pakistan with love and affection, and hope that the discrimination that the world would show towards Indians and Pakistanis would be so damaging to the Pakistani H&D, that they would resign themselves to accepting Indian domination as an unchangeable reality! So Pakistani isolation from the world, accompanied with a parallel embrace from India, would help India make the case to Pakistan!

saip · Post by **saip** » 02 Nov 2011 19:47

Pakistan approves 'Most Favoured Nation' status for India

"We are considering to import 500 MW of electricity from India," a spokesman for the water and power ministry told AFP.

India has 500 MW of excess power? Then why all the power cuts?

Link

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Nov 2011 19:49

More jiziya. More lagaan!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Nov 2011 19:51

Pakistan grants India Most Favoured Nation trade status from TOIlet

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan's cabinet unanimously decided on Wednesday to grant India Most Favoured Nation status to liberalise trade between the two South Asian countries, Pakistan's information minister said, a move that could improve ties between the rivals.

"Today after an extensive briefing by the commerce secretary, the cabinet unanimously decided to grant India Most Favoured Nation status," the minister, Firdos Ashiq Awan, told a news conference.

Now Pakistan would be truly screwed as BOP would shoot skyward unless India offers to purchase Land or waive of payments or gives grants, loans to meet the import cost. But they would remain ungrateful for the service we would do for their funeral.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Nov 2011 19:55

chaanakya wrote:Now Pakistan would be truly screwed as BOP would shoot skyward unless India offers to purchase Land or waive of payments or gives grants, loans to meet the import cost. But they would remain ungrateful for the service we would do for their funeral.

They could pay in food grain, dals and vegetables! It would help bring down the prices in India, so that the poor sections in India can get affordable food!

It would cause higher food prices in Pakistan, which is just as good!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Nov 2011 20:03

saip wrote:Pakistan approves 'Most Favoured Nation' status for India

"We are considering to import 500 MW of electricity from India," a spokesman for the water and power ministry told AFP.
India has 500 MW of excess power? Then why all the power cuts?

Link

My guess is that India has pockets of excess power generation, but lacks **efficient** long-distance transmission capabilities to route the power to power-deficient areas.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Nov 2011 20:12

The relationships between India, Pakistan and the USA are actually more complex than we tend to credit them with, and I have tended to gain an understanding only slowly, starting with simplistic explanations. US strength vis a vis Pakistan and its options are crucial, but we cannot ignore Indian and Pakistani strengths here.

The simplistic story that I have heard is as follows. Pakistan is anti India. The USA dominates over Pakistan and bribes Pakistan with money and arms against India, and in exchange gets Pakistani cooperation to do its job. In this scheme of things, the US can choose to put all sorts of pressures on Pakistan. The USA is so strong that its arming of Pakistan against India is simply one of many choices it has. Not only does that cheaply win Pakistani cooperation, it cheaply keeps India in check. In order to break out of this India must please the US and do more. India must, for example, support the US in Afghanistan and toe the line on the Iran issue. In exchange the US can crack down on Pakistan in "other ways" and make Pakistan a smaller threat to India while we normalize relations with Pakistan.

The above "strong USA" scenario is very tempting, but it assumes that the US exerts power over Pakistan and has a choice where in need not pay or bribe Pakistan against India.

In fact the US is not that strong. It's only leverage over Pakistan is the latter's hatred of India. The US lacks the power and will to make Pakistan do anything. Pakistan toes the US line as long as the US toes the Pakistani line and keeps supplying Pakistan with money and arms and does not demand any change in Pakistani policy against India.

In practice the outward effect of this second "weak USA" scenario is exactly the same as the "strong USA" scenario. The US supplies Pakistan with money and arms. the US is happy. Pakistan is happy. India is opposed by Pakistan and the US does not care. But the difference between a "strong USA" and "weak USA" is that a weak USA needs Pakistan to be anti-India. Pakistan's anti-India feeling is the only leverage the US has on Pakistan. If Pakistan did not want US help against India, or is Pakistan was not anti-India, the US would have no leverage on Pakistan. Pakistan;s hatred of India is a "lever" or a "handle" that the US can grasp to arm Pakistan and request favors in exchange.

In the "weak USA" scenario, it does not matter what India does to try and please the US. The US will carry on arming and funding Pakistan. That means that India has no real reason to support the US in extra regional causes unless it suits India. If American actions in Afghanistan suit India, we support it. Otherwise we don't. if US actions against iran suit India we support it. Otherwise we don't.

India's relationship with the US will necessarily have to be one of a spoiler where they are unable to use Pakistan fully as long as they seek to arm and fund Pakistan. That means India has also got to remain a military threat to Pakistan in a way that could lead to war at short notice. Even if the US helps Pakistan, US plans must be spoilt. if, on the other hand the US can see eye to eye with India, and promise to use its influence in whatever way possible to check Pakistani aggression, India must titrate its agreement with the US to match what the US can do for us. If the US supplies us with Intel and keeps the Indian viewpoint in mind when it acts, we do what the US requests us to do. if they don't deliver, we back out.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Nov 2011 20:14

RajeshA wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Now Pakistan would be truly screwed as BOP would shoot skyward unless India offers to purchase Land or waive of payments or gives grants, loans to meet the import cost. But they would remain ungrateful for the service we would do for their funeral.
They could pay in food grain, dals and vegetables! It would help bring down the prices in India, so that the poor sections in India can get affordable food!

It would cause higher food prices in Pakistan, which is just as good!

I am happy that they have given it against the advice of KiyaNahi. Without it BOP was over the top , with it their Dal, grains or vegetables would not be enough. Oh I forgot they would eat grass anyway.

My only grouse is that they would continue to plan venous attack on us our Dossamaster has also forgotten how to make potent dossa.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 02 Nov 2011 20:47

The thing that TSP lacks most is liberals. After all, even by the liberal estimate of our liberal friends, they only have about 500 in a country of 200mil. Thankfully we have a huge surplus stock on that matter..

Ideally we should offer a discounted price and export a bunch of them with one way ticket - we can throw in a Burqa or two for every dozen purchased..

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 02 Nov 2011 20:54

saip wrote:India has 500 MW of excess power? Then why all the power cuts?

Link

I am not in favor of any trade with pakistan but now that we are going to then power export is good. At least lets make pakistan more and more India dependent.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 Nov 2011 20:58

Such an Afghanistan, Pakistani leaders fear, will lay claim to the
Pashtun areas that straddle a border that was drawn carelessly
by the British and that Afghanistan has never fully accepted.
They also fear that the Pashtuns might someday want a nation of their own. "

Here are some facts for zimble people.

1. Grandson of Ahmad Shah Abdali (Durrani) Zaman Shah invaded India in 1799., but was
forced to return from Lahore by Sikh forces under 16 years old new leader
named Ranjit singh from the village named Shukarchak near city of Gujranwala, Punjab.

2. Ranjit singh chased Zaman Shah all the way upto river Indus., returning back
to Lahore declared himself the Maharaja of the Punjab.

3. In 1818 Sikh forces of Ranjit singh crossed the river Indus Under Diwan Mohkam Chand and Cavalry
under Hari Singh Nalwa defeated Dost Mohammad Khan and appointed Jahandad
Khan as the governor of Peshawar on the annual tribute of some money.

4. In early 1820s Dost Mohammad Khan was freed from occuption of Nawab of Kashmir and Ranjit Singh got the kohinoor
diamond as a tribute. Dost Mohammad Khan was appointed governor of Peshawar and KAshmir
was made part of Khalsa kingdom.

5. In Jan of 1823 Mohammad Azim the king of Kabul attacked Peshawar and occupied it.
Thus Ranjit Singh took command of the army and marched on the Peshawar with
Hari Singh Nalua, Akali Phula Singh, Gorkha Bal Bhadra, Misr Diwan Chand,
Sardar Attar Singh and Hukma singh Chimni. They defeated Mohammd Azim and again
appointed Dost Mohammad khan as governor on an annual tribute.

6. In 1827 Hari Singh Nalwa defeated the Jihadi Ahmad Shah Barelvi (who was from Bareli in UP)
and was trying to get a force of "Mujahdeen" together to defeat all the Hindu kingdoms of India.

7. This time Hari Singh Nalwa stopped the Barelvi Jihadi from crossing the indus into Punjab,
defeating him. Here is quote by Griffin
"Griffin states that when Sayed Ahmad roused all the fanatic power of Yusafzais for
a holy war against Sikhs and was joined by the Barkazi chief of Peshawar,
Sardar Hari Singh Nalua with his 25,000 men prevented Syed Ahmad from crossing
Indus. Then Lahore troops crossed Indus and invaded Peshawar, Syed Ahmad and
his crusaders were butchered. Hari Singh gave Sayed a great setback. Peshawar
was pillaged, Palaces were destroyed, tribute of Peshawar was increased and the
son of Yar Mohammad Khan was carried away by Hari Singh as hostage. Then again,
in 1830, Maharaja had to sent Prince Sher singh to Peshawar to get tribute
from Sayed Ahmad which was paid."

8. Then in 1830 Maharaja had to send his son Gen. Sher Singh to get tribute from Peshawar.

9. On 6th May 1834, Hari Singh Nalwa was made the first non-muslim Governor of Peshwar in
1000 years.

10. Hari Singh Nalwa created so many defenses in this area that King of Kabul started paying
him tribute.

11. He created 40+ little forts all the way to the Khyber Pass from Peshar so that India could
never be attacked from this place (it has been used since Alexandar to attack India).

12. Hari Singh died a martyr in 1837 and after the death of Ranjit Singh in 1839 and occupation
of Sikh kingdom by British in 1849. Peshawar passed onto British.

13. Then Sikhs army was made into Hoodson Horse/Sikh/Punjab/etc Regiments of British Army deployed
at Peshawar and fighting Afghanis (across the river Indus). Thus british could keep
the India's border right up to the Khyber pass (across river indus).

After 1947, Pakistani government gave lots of independence to the people of this area (around Peshawar)
in order to keep their rule., as oppose to earlier Sikhs and British who used aggression.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 02 Nov 2011 21:28

India is risking a lot to get access to central asia via pakistan. We will be giving them our balls to hold, at least we should have their nose.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Nov 2011 21:52

abhijitm wrote:I am not in favor of any trade with pakistan but now that we are going to then power export is good. At least lets make pakistan more and more India dependent.

I'm not sure they can pay for it. Esp. long term. They depend on special deals which they will demand from India as well.

Ultimately TSP will have to depend on Indian money and wealth for survival. It is ever so that a large prosperous central state bails out its flailing neighbors economically. All kinds of reasons are found. The day is coming when Pakistan will depend on India for financial aid.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 Nov 2011 21:59

by Abjijitm
India is risking a lot to get access to central asia via pakistan. We will be giving them our balls to hold, at least we should have their nose.

No! we are not! India had access to central asia for a long time which we lost in 1947. for an access to the central asia Pakistan must cease to exist., the sooner the better. No price is big enough for this prize.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 02 Nov 2011 22:08

Theo_Fidel wrote:
abhijitm wrote:I am not in favor of any trade with pakistan but now that we are going to then power export is good. At least lets make pakistan more and more India dependent.
I'm not sure they can pay for it. Esp. long term. They depend on special deals which they will demand from India as well.
...

correct, they won't. This is jiziya we will have to pay for the access to central asia.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Nov 2011 22:49

Since this dovetails with Shiv's "weak USA" scenario above, I quote Thomas Friedman who quotes C. Raja Mohan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/opini ... ckers.html

Just as I don’t buy the notion that we need to keep playing The Great Game in Iraq, I also don’t buy it for Afghanistan.

“If the U.S. steps back, it will see that it has a lot more options,” argues C. Raja Mohan, a senior fellow at the Center for Policy Research, in New Delhi. “You let the contending regional forces play out against each other and then you can then tilt the balance.” He is referring to the India, Pakistan, Russia, Iran, China and Northern Alliance tribes in Afghanistan. “At this point, you have the opposite problem. You are sitting in the middle and are everyone’s hate-object, and everyone sees some great conspiracy in whatever you do. Once you pull out, and create the capacity to alter the balance, you will have a lot more options and influence to affect outcomes — rather than being pushed around and attacked by everyone.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Nov 2011 22:52

I always said CRM has other countries interests in mind, He is a maximum accomodationist!

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 02 Nov 2011 23:10

i think MFN status is the beginning of real indian independence. the goal was/is to drive the colonials completely out of the mainland asia and that includes driving japan out. india/china can can duke it out amongst themselves.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Nov 2011 23:25

RajeshA wrote:More jiziya. More lagaan!

Advanced apologies if this is considered OT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4g6lq1zCqM

We know what Bhasmasura wanted. We know who gave the boon to him.

I think Indo-Af treaty is Shiva seeking Vishnu's help.

Now Mohini started the dance.

The UCV-CS will be the final act. Bhasmasura will do AM (as in JDAM) on his own head.

End of the story

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 02 Nov 2011 23:49

RajeshA wrote: So Pakistani isolation from the world, accompanied with a parallel embrace from India, would help India make the case to Pakistan!

Saar i was thinking on the same lines. You have put it so eloquently here. The recent happenings make more sense when looked in this context. My Walikum Assslam to you.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 00:35

‘Afghanistan endgame a sham’
News Comments (0)
http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2011/11 ... %E2%80%99/

ISLAMABAD - “There is neither a peace process nor an endgame in Afghanistan,” said senior journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai while addressing a roundtable organised by the Institute of Regional Studies on the subject, “Afghanistan: An Elusive Peace Process”, on Wednesday.

He argued that all the peace talks were heavy on cosmetics and light in substance. While dispelling the notions about an endgame in Afghanistan, he said that all the signs were pointing toward a long-term US presence there no matter how limited in numbers. This, he believed, would mean a continuing war and instability in Afghanistan and, by extension, in Pakistan as well. He added that the long-term US presence would soon be institutionalised with a strategic partnership agreement between Afghanistan and the US after endorsement by the Afghan Loya Jirga, spelling an unstable future for Afghanistan and Pakistan. Yusufzai also viewed the strategic agreement between Afghanistan and India as an impediment towards peace in Afghanistan, because he believed that the agreement had killed any incentive that Pakistan would have had in continuing to support the peace process. He shared that the Taliban had an office in Doha, Qatar, with Tayyab Agha in charge. He disclosed that he called it an act of sizing up the opponent by both parties and not any serious effort at bringing an end to the conflict in Afghanistan.

The journalist said the way the NATO wanted to negotiate from a position of strength, the Taliban wanted to do the same and would never agree to a settlement as long as NATO ambitions would remain unclear to them. Yusufzai also made the interesting disclosure that some of the Taliban commanders negotiating with NATO in Germany were on the UN Blacklist and could not technically travel internationally. Yusufzai termed the story of Afghanistan characterised by conflict, corruption, and narcotics. He was of the view that all the elections in Afghanistan were rigged and that warlords were ruling the roost in the country.
He added that Karzai had also lost support and credibility after his second re-election.
Yusufzai maintained that the Taliban had fought the battle in Afghanistan with heavy casualties, but they were able to reinforce their ranks through fresh recruitment despite being outnumbered 15 to 1 by their opponents

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 00:40

Afghanistan's missed opportunities and new choices

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 00:43

10 years on … who are the Taliban?

WHO ARE THE TALIBAN?

The Taliban include several loosely allied factions in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The biggest are the Afghan Taliban, the Haqqani network and the Pakistani Taliban.

RECENTLY: Residents on horse-led carts hurry past burning fuel tankers along the GT Road near Nowshera, located in Pakistans Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, last year. Picture: Reuters
REUTERS
The Afghan Taliban rose to prominence in 1994 under the leadership of Mullah Omar, a former imam and mujahideen guerrilla, whose army of young and fanatical fighters seized power in Afghanistan in 1996 but were ousted by US-backed forces five years later.

Often referred to in shorthand as the Quetta Shura because of its leadership’s base in exile, it prefers to call itself the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

The Pakistani Taliban, or Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), is an umbrella organisation of about 13 groups in Pakistan’s north-western and western tribal areas. Established in December 2007, it is blamed for many suicide bombings across Pakistan. It has also struck US targets in Afghanistan, and it shares some resources and ideology with the Afghan Taliban.

The Haqqani network, based in the lawless tribal areas of the porous Afghanistan-Pakistan border, is perhaps the most politically worrying for the US. The Haqqanis are battling for control over their traditional power base in eastern Afghanistan, spread over Khost, Paktia and Paktika provinces. Leader Jalaluddin Haqqani rose to power as a mujahideen leader in the fight against Soviet troops in the 1980s. He allied with the Afghan Taliban after Omar seized Kabul.

Omar is still the nominal head of the entire Taliban movement, and most other factions in both Pakistan and Afghanistan swear loyalty to him as Amir-ul-Mu’minin, or “Leader of the Faithful”.

HOW DO THESE GROUPS OPERATE?

Given the dispersed nature of the groups, the Taliban factions often act like franchises, comprised of myriad regional cells that operate independently at the local level, but which follow the grand strategy and Islamic principles of the movement’s shadowy leadership – primarily Omar’s. A Taliban cell at village level might typically have 10-50 part-time fighters and plenty more local mercenaries.

All three major factions share an ideology of jihad, or holy war. They often share resources, safe houses and fighters, with the Haqqanis often serving as the communications channel.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 01:17

Guns or butter?

Pakistan has no doubt serious disputes with India which need to be resolved. So have China and Bangladesh. While keeping the disputes alive, both have maintained economic ties with India and the mutual trade has continued to increase. Not so in the case of Pakistan where the public was told that better economic ties leading to the expansion of economic opportunities would create a lobby in Pakistan soft on India. A new cause for confrontation has been added now to the list of disputes. It is maintained that with Indian influence growing in Afghanistan, it would turn Kabul into a hostile neighbour. Many think that with trade expanding with India and Afghanistan after removing unrealistic restrictions, and Pakistan serving as a vital link with Central Asia, dependencies would be created forcing India and Afghanistan to seek better ties with Pakistan.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 03 Nov 2011 01:53

Dipanker wrote:
CRamS wrote: The US started fighting Al Qaeda in 2001. One would have thought that the war should have ended with that heroic raid. Al Qaeda leader gone and all. "Osama bin Laden wanted dead or alive' Let's roll boys. Go get him. Rah rah rah" So what is the US doing now? Fighting Taliban. Fighting Haqqani faction. Begging Pakistanis with great "firmness" to go after Haqqani. Talking of reaching accommodation with Pakistan. You might like to call this "strength". it looks pathetic to me.

DocJi, I am with you 100%, actually 400%, in that all the grandiose ambitions US has set forth immediately post 9/11 have bitten the dust. But thats where the problem is as I have been saying for a long time. A few pipsqueak so called Al Queda who undertook 9/11 were hyped up as this gargantuan omnipotent enemy, and this so called GWOT became some kind of a mythical crusade of Biblical proportions in the minds of the average white joe six pack; so much so that demi God moron football players signed up for this orgy to go and get OBL & the "mighty" Al Queda. As you yourself pointed out, US loves this "get the bad guy" mentality, and if there is no "bad guy", they invent one.

But slowly, the real-politic but pragmatic slime balls like Zbigniew Brizinsky prevailed, and the realization now is that rather than annihilating the Taliban which means destroying TSP (which US can do in a heartbeat, just a few B-52 sorties over Rawalpindi will do the trick), and in the process opening up a geo-political can of worms; for e.g., India and Iran rising up far more than US can chew on, the US has settled for the more easily doable regional status quo that prevailed prior to 9/11 with the explicit understanding with TSPA/ISI that they will thwart any terrorist attack against whites launched from AfPak. Tell me why this doesn't suit US interests? And furthermore, the chameleon-like b@stards TSP RAPE, you cannot deny that TSP did indeed round up Al Queda big-wigs. (Of course, they kept the big fish like OBL in Kiyani's backyard to milk more moolah, but they got caught in the process ). Tell me, why restring this status quo is not in US interests?
And it took US 10 years, nearly a $1 trillion, and about 2000 US soldiers lives to reach to this "US interest" stage???

You are painting the Americans like they are complete morons!

I see where shiv ji is enjoying himself. Please, let us give posters here a little more sense than "ra rah rah home of the brave..." et cetera et cetera. At the base of all arguments about a US vs the paki lies a fairly accurate assessment of the relative military capabilities of the protagonists. Ofcourse, a lot more than military capabilities go into a conflict, or war. Recall that the "stupid" Poles came at Hitler's panzers with horse cavalry in '39. When the dust settled, those "stupid" Poles had won - not just that, they got a third of the third reich as booty. So. Instead of laughing at the rah rah rah, we would be better served by examining whys and what fors that cause the US to take the policy path that they have chosen to follow. "I dont know much - just what I read in the newspapers" level of examination should be enough. I wonder if you recall the panchtantra - there is one there about the jackal coming on to a battle field with a feast of dead for his feasting. But that jackal thought he would be frugal & begin with eating the lether on a bow that lay there. The bow snapped, killing the jackal. So. I mean, there are numerous such explanations - on the domestic political battle field, the most often repeated warning to the US is to be "frugal", and not destroy its power through extravagent use of it - warnings most often based on the fate of Rome. Anyway, we dont have to just go to these "piskological" factors. There is the detailed audio-visual public record of the begining of the iraq war. I suggest shiv ji should review it to see the US capabilities in action, and that was 10 years or so ago. Those capabilities have improved. Just a few words of caution, and I hope it leads to a better understanding of the dangerous world we inhabit. What ever else, it is, for sure, dangerous.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 03 Nov 2011 02:14

Narad wrote:
RajeshA wrote: So Pakistani isolation from the world, accompanied with a parallel embrace from India, would help India make the case to Pakistan!
Saar i was thinking on the same lines. You have put it so eloquently here. The recent happenings make more sense when looked in this context. My Walikum Assslam to you.

Munna hai Tuu, Mera Mundu hai Tuu
Tu Naukar abb se hamara hai Tuu
Paani bhi dei, tumhe Bijli bhi dei
Bhookha, Nanga, Bechara hai Tuu.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 03 Nov 2011 02:20

An icepick right through Pakistan's jugular.

Xinjiang keen on reviving historic trade ties with India
Ananth Krishnan

Photo: Ananth Krishnan
The site of the Indian Consulate in Kashgar which closed in 1950. The crumbling building is now a Chinese restaurant.

The regional government of China's far-western Xinjiang region is keen to revive the frontier trade with India that once flourished along the disputed western section of the border and is courting Indian involvement in plans to develop a special economic zone in the border town of Kashgar, officials have told The Hindu.

As the Governor of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, Nur Bekri, begins a four-day visit to New Delhi and Mumbai on Thursday, the regional government has sought to downplay its role as a bridge for China's investments in neighbouring Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK), which serves as a crucial land-link between China and Pakistan.

In a first, the regional government's Development and Reform Committee (DRC) appeared to implicitly acknowledge India's claims to PoK in written responses to questions ahead of Mr. Bekri's visit, making the case for increasing frontier trade with India and describing Kashgar as bordering India, not Pakistan.

There were particular advantages in developing frontier trade with India, said the DRC, pointing to recently announced policies by the Chinese central government to develop the Kashgar SEZ. The policies would support the “construction of the Kashgar economic development zone which borders with India”, said the DRC. “We welcome Indian companies to invest in Kashgar, which possesses great growth potential in bilateral trade.” The DRC said it would also favour the opening of international flights from Kashgar to India, and would “encourage” foreign airlines to open direct flights.

Officials from Xinjiang's Political and Legal Committee, who will accompany Mr. Bekri, said they would like to work more with India on counterterrorism. The XUAR government blamed recent attacks in Kashgar on local Uighurs — a Muslim ethnic Turkic minority group — trained in camps in Pakistan.

“China and its neighbouring countries should together face terrorism since we have mutual interest in this area to guarantee the stability of our countries,” the committee said. “Xinjiang will continue to enhance cooperation with neighbouring countries, including India.”

The government said it was also keen to increase the flow of people from India, in marked contrast with China's earlier reservations to opening up Xinjiang citing stability concerns. It did not, however, reply to questions on whether it would favour the opening up of an Indian trade office or Consulate in Urumqi or Kashgar in the future.

India's Consulate in Kashgar was closed in 1950, following which the Indian trade presence ceased to exist in the region. Since then, an increasing number of traders from Pakistan have established a presence in Kashgar.

However, deep-rooted cultural links with India, sourced in a long history of commercial and cultural engagement between Kashgar and Ladakh and through the Silk Road, have left a strong appeal for Indian culture among Uighurs, evident today in the widespread popularity of Indian films.

Mr. Bekri's visit is part of a recent initiative by India to revive these forgotten links with a region rarely recognised as neighbouring India, and to build closer links with provinces on China's borders.

His invitation by the Government of India, under the India-China Distinguished Visitors' Programme, followed the organising of a cultural performance in Kashgar last year — one which the Indian Embassy in Beijing lobbied hard for — and a visit by Ambassador to China S. Jaishankar to the regional capital Urumqi last week, where he met official from energy companies TBEA and Goldwind, which are looking to expand their commercial interests in India.

Trade between India and Xinjiang has soared this year, increasing 92.4 per cent year-on-year between January and September, reaching $47 million, the highest in the past five years according to the DRC.

“Xinjiang and India enjoy strong trade complementarities,” the DRC said. “There is great cooperation and broad development potential in agricultural products, food, mechanical and electrical products, IT and other areas as well.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 592199.ece

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 03 Nov 2011 02:31

CRamS wrote:
Altair wrote: Why B-52's? Does India lack the military capacity to pull that off? We may not have B-52's but we can do just as much damage if not more. I am sure many BRFites agree with my assessment. IAF can pound Rawalpindi and Islamabad with our "existing" armed force levels itself. Forget future acquisitions.
My point is India is just as equally militarily capable of bringing Pakistan to the knees as US of A.. However,US is just as equally afraid of a JDAM as India if TSPA is pushed too hard. So,finally, India and US are both doing the same thing. Letting TSPA survive another day till it dies of natural causes. Whatever ill intention US had to keep them alive is extinguished now.
Wrong, totally wrong. I empathize with SDREs, Iam a proud SDRE, a proud Indian American, and I can tell you, NO India does not have that capability. No country that has endured the kind of perfidy from TSP that India has would so pathetically beg it for peace if it did have the capability to punish TSP. But of course, there are lots of other ways to punish TSP IMO which India's WKKs and traitors don't want to pursue. Their grip is more with India's Hindu civilizational heritage than anything TSP does to India. As for JDAM, the fears are overblown. Transfer of fissile material, know how etc, yes. And are you telling me that as long as US gives TSP nuke and other parity with India, TSPA won't keep their end of the bargain, past nuke peddling notwithstanding?

Well, CRamS ji: Those who have ruled the mordern Indian Republic, from its inception, have had certain long term goals in mind - a a lot of those are discussed in the myrid threads that are strewn on this web site. Ultimately, is the "manifest destiny" that has always been the driving force of even the most minor of potentates in a position of executive power in India. Going back to the time of the epics. It is the ashvamegh yagna. Uniting India "from the mountains to the oceans". Letting loose the horses of war as the ultimate in defiance, in the ultimate "wearing a chip on their shoulder". Every one from Rama to Yudhishter, Indira Gandhi to Zia ul Haq (though unknowingly, as he never read the epics) has been bitten by it. Then, for India is the matter of securing its unique civilizational ethos. What follows is the vexing problem of muslim populations. Then the responsibility of keeping the geography of present pakis free from becoming a nuke ash heap. And so on. Unlike the US, India has many other compulsions when it comes to dealing with the paki.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 02:49

What the Pakistan Army should do

The Pakistan Army should let foreign policy go. One says it because all armies attach foreign policy to geopolitics and, therefore, disqualify themselves as arbiters. They tie a most changeable category to the most unchanging physical aspect of the country where they imagine they see permanent advantage. Geopolitically, India is a permanent enemy. Geopolitically, Pakistan’s median ‘transit territory’ status gives it permanent advantage. Nothing could be more wrong.

The military view of Pakistan’s geopolitical importance has been proved wrong by the failure of the theory of ‘strategic depth’ as a kind of corollary to our self-image as a geopolitical obstacle. As some textbooks recognise, the geopolitical view of international affairs is favoured by all armies because it is linked to geography and, therefore, is of fixed value. And it obviates the periodical rewriting of textbooks army officers read during training.

The only geography that works, however, is the one based on the civilian view: Finland could exploit its ‘median’ location between the West and the Soviet Union during the Cold War while Pakistan uses it today to block India.
The civilian geopolitical advantage is a part of the war equation in South Asia. The military imagination is fixed on it as ‘one-time advantage’: it is wrong in thinking that once a trade route is given to India, Pakistan will lose its upper hand. The fact is that the advantage will start materialising only after the trade route becomes functional and billions of international dollars become committed to it.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 03 Nov 2011 02:50

RamaY: That is good (re: Bhasmasura), but, it unfortunately forces our paki lurks to go read up on our epics, our rich & almost endless collection of tales of the Gods and the demons... all that mythology....wonder if they will finally get it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2011 03:55

Well they become bull wattles no?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 03 Nov 2011 03:57

Running now BBC1.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ble_Cross/
Louder and louder it gets.

Typing as it comes....

Amrullah Saleh repeatedly saying all roads on terror lead to Pakistan and ISI .

BBC is presenting it as though they have exposed a major secret!

2009 Attack on Indian embassy shown and Haqqani network eventually are found to be behind it.
Hamid Gul says TSP cannot afford hostile enemies all around and therefore Haqqanis could be used and it is in TSP national interest.
Durrani says TSP could be involved in Indian embassy and Mumbai but not the ISI - whatever that means.

Amreekis finally learn after Indian embassy bombing that Pakistan is heavily involved in double dealing - Bruce Riedel analyzes and passes this information to Ombaba. Pakistan confronted and immediated 85% drop in supplies late 2009 and early 2010. Amreeki soldiers go half hungry due to this. <

>

Kidnapped Rohde ( NYT reporter ) says he openly saw Haqqani's waving at Paki army and exchanging pleasantries < SHOCKER

>. Rohde's helpers who aided his escape were tortured and executed by ISI according to him.

Now Pakistan also shown as a victim of terrorism. Durrani says Pakistan has no interest in going after Afghan Taliban just because US says so.< Take that Amreeki idiot-e-scum. Nice and sweet in the balls >

Afghan Taliban commander now says several US supply trucks redirected to them. Due to this his army grew by 80%. Also says Ombaba's announcement of US withdrawal boosted morale and Pakistan's support also increased.

Amreeki diplomat says Amreekis have invaded two Muslim countries and a third one was out of question. Therefore Dronearama. < I take it back .No Amreeki idiot-e-scum>

Raymond Davis saga now being shown. Shows how TSP used it to arm twist Amreeki. < It is back! Amreeki idiot-e-scum>
That saga also exposed US mass infiltration of agents in TSP t- this would eventually lead to Osama tip.
Durrani says ISI should have known. DUrrani says it is his hometown and says Osama lived under their nose. < Fool me twice - Amreeki idiot-e-scum-e-squared >

Videos shown of Amreeki trucks being picked out with land mines.

Amreeki soldier explains that main task on the border is to monitor the infiltration routes from the Pakistani border.
Also says no change on the ground since Osama's death.
Air drop of supplies is now being vehemently pursued.

BBC commentator says talking and negotiations are the only way out since no one can win.
Mark Sedwill - UK representative says direct talks with Taliban now being pursued. <NATO short term goal == long term NATO-e-gullible-e-fool. >
BUt even this has ISI playing spoilsport - Barada? who initiated talks with Afghans directly was eliminated by ISI.< I take it back once again : NATO short term goal == short term NATO-e-gullible-e-fool. >

Lady from Afghan peace council talking now - when she starts negotiations with Afghan commanders she is warned/informed not to inform Pakistan by Afghan intelligence

Bruce Riedel now says TSP had no interest in peace in Afghanistan.

Ex-soosai vest carrier who now wears no vest says ISI commanders station themselves close to the border. They target Afghani army and police everyday.

Bruce Riedel now warns that Pakistan#s projected trajectory is a danger to Europe and Amreeka!

Sun setting across the mountains, lone helicopter in the horizon and gunfire starts.

<10 years of stupidity continues. Amreeki targets lies to the east. Me reminded of dark days of late 1980s, the horrible 1990s and terror of first decade of 2000. Why should I shed a tear for Amreeki/NATO soldier when our soldiers lost lives and limbs and we got sanguine preaching during that time. Let all-intelligent super dooper power Amreeka apologise to India and I will lay flowers in the war memorial for Amreekis near where I live>

-----------------------------------------

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 03 Nov 2011 04:25

abhijitm wrote:
saip wrote:India has 500 MW of excess power? Then why all the power cuts?

Link
I am not in favor of any trade with pakistan but now that we are going to then power export is good. At least lets make pakistan more and more India dependent.

free trade does not work that way, my friend.

i think (as a neutral person here) that both sides need to show maturity. I commend the Pakistanis and the indians not just for mutual trade concessions but also given the fact that they both won non-perm. seats @ the UNGA

just saying.