Indian Response to Terrorism

[NRao]

In the category:

Pak TV channel says 26/11 hatched by Hindu Zionists

[ramana]

We need an NRI who was hurt in the terrorist attack and sue in New York to withhold the tort/damage from the IMF loan the TSP.

Good idea. Now who is there to do this? What about the Chabad House people for they were American Israelis?

[animesharma]

Indian response to Terrorism?

looking at the media reports for past few days, i will say the answer to the question is that India is getting more united.
Consider these articles:

Maoists give gun salute to Mumbai victims
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Maoi ... 789575.cms

But they have validated their violence:

"Unlike terrorists, we are not ranged against innocent citizens of the country. We have specific targets and work according to a plan."

Quit India, Mumbai says again
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/03m ... -again.htm

he heartbeat of a wounded city that will bleed, but will not bend
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/03m ... t-bend.htm
Elsewhere, a group of some three dozen sits in a circle it has cleared for itself. This is a silent rally -- banners say what they will not: Bharat Ma ki Shaan [Images] hai, Mumbai Meri Jaan Hai. Bharat Hamari Ma hai, kya baap hamara hijda hai?

[RajeshA]

vera_k,

Re: UN Resolution

You are basically saying let's walk from Delhi to Islamabad, and I am saying let's take the car, parked outside.

No you are saying let's rent the car instead of taking our own car. Problem with this is that you are liable to get stuck with an Aveo when you asked for a Hummer.

I still haven't seen our own (UPA's) car as yet.

Secondly you would rather rent a car which is insured (spreading the costs, expanding legitimacy), than use your own car, if you are going in a war zone (attack alone).

Thirdly if we don't like the car we get for rent, we can always use our car (provided we have one). That option always remains.

[NRao]

The Rice effect.

Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory: US

3 Dec 2008, 0229 hrs IST, Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN

WASHINGTON: The terrorist massacre in Mumbai was plotted in Pakistan and was executed by Pakistanis, Indian and US officials now agree. The big
question now: How culpable are the Pakistani government and its military and intelligence agency, and how can the answer be handled either way it turns out?

That’s the tricky issue facing New Delhi and Washington as they put together pieces of the terrorist jigsaw to claimed 170-plus lives, including nearly 40 Muslims and nationals from 10 countries.

US advice to India: wait and see how Pakistani government cooperates in the investigation before any punitive action. US directive to Islamabad: prove your protestations of innocence and non-complicity at the official level, with a full and transparent cooperation in the face of overwhelming evidence that the footprints of the terror attack lead back to Pakistan.

This is the gist of the exchanges between the three countries. On Tuesday, Washington broadly accepted India’s contention, based on evidence now shared with US law enforcement and intelligence agencies that the terror trail led to Pakistan. The preponderance of proof include detailed confessions by the one surviving terrorist, GPS tracks, e-mail and electronic tracks, telephone intercepts, and ordnance and forensic evidence, among other things.

US acceptance of India’s case — dismissed out-of-hand as knee-jerk, premature etc by Pakistan — was signaled by an unnamed senior American official who was quoted by Reuters as saying ''There are a lot of reasons to think it might be a group, partially or wholly a group, that is located on Pakistan's territory.''

The official, accompanying Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on her trip to the sub-continent, also said Islamabad had accepted the ''possibility that there might be people located on Pakistani territory,'' involved in the attack and had promised to cooperate in the investigation.

On record though, the state department continued to give Pakistan some breathing space, saying ''it’s too early to say where these attackers originated from — where they originated from, who was behind these attacks.'' The White House took the same line on Monday, enabling a relieved Pakistani press to crow that Islamabad had been declared innocent.

But every a cursory reading beyond the generalities indicate anything but a clean chit. ''The investigation will obviously point us in a certain direction. But we need to let the investigation take its course. Finger-pointing is not necessarily the best thing at this particular time,'' State Department spokesman Robert Wood said, while offering a dead giveaway to the origins by immediately adding, ''However, it’s incumbent upon Pakistan to do what it can to make sure that they’re cooperating with this investigation, and help bring these culprits to justice.''

The tricky problem both New Delhi and the international community faces is in determining the culpability of the Pakistani government and its extent — whether through over or covert complicity or through inaction and denial.

Intelligence circles say Pakistan’s government has always tried to maintain a ''plausible deniability'' in all its covert activity, including sponsorship of terrorism and nuclear proliferation. For instance, even in the AQ Khan case, Islamabad initially denied proliferation, then insisted Khan had gone rogue and done it on his own. Khan now says the government was very much in the loop and authorised it.

In the Mumbai terror strike, intelligence circles surmise that it is possible the ISI had ''outsourced'' the operation to a former controller now functioning as a LeT commander or operative, who may or may not have turned rogue. Since preparation for the strike is thought to have stretched a year or more, it was conceived well before the current civilian government took change, and it might have happened without its approval or knowledge.

But no one, including Pakistani experts, doubts that LeT is a creation of the ISI, whose officers are often seconded to the terror group. ''Lashkar-e-Taiba was fostered by ISI as a surrogate to help Mujaheddin by Kashmir...in recent years they have broken out of control from ISI,'' Shuja Nawaz, a thoughtful Pakistani scholar and brother of former Army chief Asif Nawaz Janjua, who has written a candid history of a militarized Pakistan titled ''Crossed Swords,'' said on public television on Monday, openly articulating what is said in hushed whispers in Pakistan.

Nawaz said the LeT is still operating in Pakistan, holding large meetings and collecting funds, and a true test of Islamabad’s commitment will be to act on it now. ''If there is any ambivalence (towards LeT), now is the time...there should be no reason not to act,'' he said.

But going by past record, chances are bleak that Pakistan will stick to any commitment on crackdown or cooperation particularly since the military still seems to call the shots in Islamabad. A study of past crises between the two sides compiled by the Washington-based Stimson Center elaborately chronicles Islamabad’s fudging and double-speak on the terrorism issue based on interviews with U.S officials.

In one chapter, the study relates how former military ruler Pervez Musharraf kept fudging the infiltration and terrorism issue by telling U.S Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage that ''nothing is happening'' across the Line of Control. Armitage, it says, insisted on a more than a present-tense commitment from Musharraf.

''General Musharraf also claimed that training camps for militants did not exist on Pakistani soil. Armitage shared with Musharraf evidence to the contrary,'' the study relates. Musharraf finally commits not to allow Pakistan and the territory under its control to be used for terrorism. ''Was Musharraf’s pledge substantive or just expedient?'' the study asks, going to suggest that it was mostly the latter.

[enqyoob]

For precedent, the bomb on Pan Am Flt 103 that caused it to crash on Lockerbie, Scotland, was set by NON-STATE ACTORS who just happened to be passing through Libya.

Libya just finished paying some $3B.

I bet the relatives of the "Americans" killed will start proceedings. Actually I am hoping that they name the Sec. of Defense and the Sec. of Commerce because those are the ones that authorized military aid to Pakistan.

[Gagan]

From the US State Department website. Condoleezza Rice's Press conference.

Press Conference in New Delhi, India
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
New Delhi, India
December 3, 2008

SECRETARY RICE: Good afternoon. I wish to start by just underscoring what President Bush has said a couple of days ago, and that is that the United States of America wants to express its deepest condolences to the people of India and particularly to the people of Mumbai. The United States stands in solidarity with India in meeting this challenge and this testing and terrible time.

I think perhaps we have some sense of what this is like, the sense of vulnerability, the questions that arise, and the desire to make every step to try and make sure that it does not happen again. I know, too, that this is a time when cooperation of all parties who have any information is really required. This is a different situation. It is a situation in which the attacks were clearly targeted to send a message about India, about its integration into the world. Foreigners were targeted, indeed, America lost citizens as well.

And so we have to act with urgency, we have to act with resolve. I have said that Pakistan needs to act with resolve and urgency and cooperate fully and transparently. That message has been delivered and will be delivered to Pakistan. But it is a time when cooperation between all peoples who suffer these terrorist attacks really is required and is necessary. I will shortly speak with a number of members of the Indian leadership. I am looking forward to those conversations to review whatever we can do in terms of cooperation, in terms of shared experience about how one deals with this kind of attack and what you can do going forward. And so again, I am here principally to express the solidarity of the United States and to offer whatever help we can to the Indian people and to the Indian leadership and to the people of Mumbai. And with that, I’m pleased to take a couple of questions.

Sean, are you going to call? Okay.

MR. MCCORMACK: First one, (inaudible).

QUESTION: Good afternoon. (inaudible) from CNN-IBN. A couple of quick questions. You talk about willing to support the Indian Government in any way that they need your support. Could you qualify if there are any concrete proposals that you bring with you for that cooperation? Second question, you said that (inaudible) a message, it was – these attacks were meant to send a message. Do you see an al-Qaida hand in these attacks?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, whether there is a direct al-Qaida hand or not, this is clearly the kind of terrorism in which al-Qaida participates. It’s a sense that you want to not just terrorize in a general sense, but you try and send a strong message that people are not safe, that businesses are not safe, that economic centers are not safe. We experienced that in New York. We are not going to jump to any conclusions about who is responsible for this, although the United States is prepared and is already actively engaged in information sharing, in forensic help, to try and make those links. Because what is important now is, of course, to go to the source and to know what happened, to follow every lead, wherever it may lead, and to bring those to justice who did this. But it is also important in counterterrorism work to use what you find to prevent further attacks, because it is really a kind of unfair fight for particularly democratic states. The terrorists only have to be right once; you have to be right 100 percent of the time. That’s a very, very daunting task.

And we’ve learned a lot over the last seven years since September 11th about the importance of activities that prevent. Because you can’t be in a situation in which you act as if, in law enforcement, they commit the act and then they’re punished. The long pole in the tent here is prevention, and so any work that I hope to do with the Indian officials is to talk about what we can contribute in terms of knowing how to use information, how to use leads toward prevention. That now has to be number one. Yes, these people have to be brought to justice for the terrible things that they did, but number one needs to be to try to prevent another attack. Because I can tell you that some seven and a half years after 9/11, we know that there are people who are still plotting and planning every day to try to bring up another successful attack.

MR. MCCORMACK: Next question is Sue Pleming from Reuters.

QUESTION: Madame Secretary, the Indians have handed over another list of 20 fugitives that they would like Pakistan to deal with or to turn over. What do you think Pakistan’s response should be at this time in order to ease tensions between the two countries?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, the Pakistani Government has said unequivocally that it intends to cooperate. And President Zardari has told me that he will follow the leads wherever they go, and I think that is a very important commitment on the part of Pakistan.

I think we should – I should refrain from speculation about what the Pakistani Government might do in response to specific requests because I – what has to happen here is that there has to be a real sense of transparency, a real sense of action, a real sense of urgency, because these are terrorists who are extremists who really have the same intention and the same goal, and that is to terrorize and send messages to states around the world, including -- by the way, extremists have done great damage in Pakistan. And so Pakistan and India and the United States – and I spent a good deal of time with my British counterpart when I was in London and with their people – we all have a great interest in getting to the bottom of this and we have a great interest in bringing people to justice and we have a great interest in prevention.

And so that would be my message. I don’t want to get into the specifics of what Pakistan may or may not do. But I’m going to take, as a firm commitment, Pakistan’s stated commitment to get to the bottom of this and to know that these are enemies of Pakistan, as well as they’re enemies of India.

MR. MCCORMACK: All right, we’ll take one more question. Nidhi Razdan.

QUESTION: Nidhi Razdan from NDTV. Secretary Rice, I have a couple of questions. One is that -- what would your message to the Prime Minister be this evening? And secondly, does the United States know about the alleged perpetrators of the Mumbai attack in the sense that -- you know, India believes it’s the Lashkar e-Tayyiba which now goes by a different name in Pakistan. It’s leader, Hafiz Saeed, has been very public anti-India speeches calling for jihad against India.

Would you be sending a message to the Pakistani Government to at least arrest him, hand him over?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I have already sent a message to the Pakistani Government, and the Pakistani Government has received that message favorably, which is that wherever this leads these people have to be brought to justice. And they – we need, or the government will need, to make certain that they’re doing everything that they can to garner information so that you can prevent further attacks.

I will tell you that the last – over the last seven years, the experience of bringing people to justice, the experience of learning about the way that operations are carried out, learning about money flows -- I read this morning something about trying to trace money flows. Let me tell you, don’t underestimate, in any case, the importance of getting to the bottom of funding for terrorism. It has been one of the most important tools that the United States has used in helping to trace people, plots, and money.

Secondly, I will say to the Prime Minister, again, that the United States is prepared to work on the intelligence information that we have. Obviously, I’m not going to go into details on that. One of the things that we all have to be very careful about is in empowering terrorists by allowing them to know what we know. I know that very often, and I respect the role not just of the press but of those who, in democratic states, want to know. But there is an important wall that must be there so that terrorists don’t know what you know. They are very active and quick at reacting when they have leads. And so I will spend some time on that.

And then finally, as I said, I’m prepared to share with the Prime Minister any ideas that we may have, given our experience, of how to move forward toward a strategy of prevention. But this is a time for everybody to cooperate and to do so transparently, and this is especially a time for Pakistan to do so.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

[ramana]

The Rice effect.

Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory: US

Yeah, But what are they going to do about it? Cant pull mushy's 2002 stunt after 12/13 Lok Sabha attack and Kaluchak camp massacres.

[milindc]

My question is, what terror camp will India attack?

Gagan,

A very pertinent question.
I don't think we need to attack terror camps in Muride (whatever that shit hole is called)
We need a very symbolic target, that will force Pakis to ponder and destroy any semblance of H&D. Pakis will cut and run, and then they will claim victory by saying look they destroyed couple of huts in PoK and don't have guts to attack cities since we will respond by Nuke attack.

We need to attack 'Karachi Port' and its infrastructure. Our claim is that the scums used Karachi harbour to launch attacks. This will be a hugely symbolic target, and very good visual for live TV. The previous Karachi port attack caused immense pain to pakis ....

They will be forced to retaliate or else the H&D goes down the drain....
Give the first blow and then wait for staggering pakis to respond...

[NRao]

N^3,

Libya had/has oil revenues.

Pakistan will take US public monies and pay Americans. Terrrorism is all they export and the value of that is totally disappearing. Although I did read today that Somalia is attracting plenty from the Land of the Pure.

[SaiK]

Not enough... They need to do more! surrender them.

In the meanwhile, they may be backing up with a safe passage these men to taliban land.

how to counter this?

[NRao]

My question is, what terror camp will India attack?

There really are none to attack. I think he just said that as a FYI that we can and will "attack". I have to suspect that it would be more on line with a naval blockade. Something that the Pakis cannot break and if they decide to hit back on land, then it can be viewed as an escalation. A blockade with NATO in tow.

[RajeshA]

For precedent, the bomb on Pan Am Flt 103 that caused it to crash on Lockerbie, Scotland, was set by NON-STATE ACTORS who just happened to be passing through Libya.

Libya just finished paying some $3B.

I bet the relatives of the "Americans" killed will start proceedings. Actually I am hoping that they name the Sec. of Defense and the Sec. of Commerce because those are the ones that authorized military aid to Pakistan.

I did mention such a recourse earlier.

In the case of Libyan complicity/sponsorship of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 on 21st December, 1988, Libya was forced to dish out a compensation of $10 million per family where 270 people died, totaling $2.7 billion.

I suggest, Pakistan should accept the responsibility for the Mumbai Attacks and pay a compensation of at least $10 million per person who died in the attacks. Furthermore, if Pakistani complicity is found in other terrorism offenses, Pakistan may have to pay much more. The injured and the traumatized should be compensated as well. The damage to the various hotels and public places need to be compensated in full also.

Moreover, this sum of money should be deducted from the Defense Budget of Pakistan, actually ISI's budget.

[samuel]

We need an NRI who was hurt in the terrorist attack and sue in New York to withhold the tort/damage from the IMF loan the TSP.

Good idea. Now who is there to do this? What about the Chabad House people for they were American Israelis?

Rabbi Holtzberg is American out of New York. If the Chabad house wants to start something, tov! I can ask around, but if some of our Jewish friends here have connections, may be worth a discussion.

But, where can we get the full list of deceased and injured?
Sorry, didn't do that homework yet. But I am, strange as it sounds, confident that there were NRI types who suffered. For example, we read about a husband and wife; wife indian, he american...both survived. There was a gentlemen from Africa who is US PR.

Good analogy, Narayanan.

Does Pakistan have any assets in India or can a lawsuit in India be used to preempt certain possible outcomes by law, just punting here of course.
S

[samuel]

Re. what camps to hit,
Bahawalpur -- JeM, go around a bit, look for LeT too.
Up north, in PoK, you'll learn of more...poke around.

S

[enqyoob]

When their ass-ets are frozen all over the world, they will find that they have plenty of $$ to pay the judgements. I would put the claim at, say. $200B.

If they don't pay, the Indian government should (there I go again! ) enforce the judgement by putting a value on Paki real estate, and taking it over. I'd say all of POK, and half of the city of LaHore.

Incidentally, the time for "hitting camps" is long over. Let the Pakis die "hitting camps". The world (meaning India) should just hit Pakistan until it cleans up the camps, the madarssas, the Army, the ISI, and self-destructs.

[milindc]

Re. what camps to hit,
Bahawalpur -- JeM, go around a bit, look for LeT too.
Up north, in PoK, you'll learn of more...poke around.

S

Those camps are not worth the bomb you drop.
We need to give a befitting response that destroys the Paki H&D....
Karachi port, Gadwar port, ISI headwaters
It has to be very symbolic...

[samuel]

Can we sue India too, in India, for failure to adequately protect from terror, given all the intelligence information that the Americans supposedly warned Indians about. I am reaching, I know, but can this lawsuit be the basis for judicial action to enact a counter-terror organization or commitment (enshrined in law) to eliminate terror or to go after Pak? Our judiciary does seem to have some "guts"

[samuel]

Re. what camps to hit,
Bahawalpur -- JeM, go around a bit, look for LeT too.
Up north, in PoK, you'll learn of more...poke around.

S

Those camps are not worth the bomb you drop.
We need to give a befitting response that destroys the Paki H&D....
Karachi port, Gadwar port, ISI headwaters
It has to be very symbolic...

No argument from me,
but how do you want to start and escalate the fight?

[SaiK]

I am sure, those terrorists have become normal citizens in pak now. perhaps living in different names and profession. Pakistan is a disease.

[animesharma]

Can we sue India too, in India, for failure to adequately protect from terror, given all the intelligence information that the Americans supposedly warned Indians about. I am reaching, I know, but can this lawsuit be the basis for judicial action to enact a counter-terror organization or commitment (enshrined in law) to eliminate terror or to go after Pak? Our judiciary does seem to have some "guts"

And the court will rule in gov favor saying gov promises best-possible-security which depends on various factors you are not entitled to know.
File a RTI, and you will be answered that half the factors are top secret.

[RajeshA]

When their ass-ets are frozen all over the world, they will find that they have plenty of $$ to pay the judgements. I would put the claim at, say. $200B.

If they don't pay, the Indian government should (there I go again! ) enforce the judgement by putting a value on Paki real estate, and taking it over. I'd say all of POK, and half of the city of LaHore.

Incidentally, the time for "hitting camps" is long over. Let the Pakis die "hitting camps". The world (meaning India) should just hit Pakistan until it cleans up the camps, the madarssas, the Army, the ISI, and self-destructs.

I would love to get our hands on all those monies stashed away in Swiss Accounts by all those Pakis who skimmed Pakistan, US and the whole world for so long.

Switzerland may not listen to India, but if USA asks ...

Even if the accounts of all the Jarnails, Zardaris, and Sharifs are frozen temporarily (until some court asks for compensation from those accounts), the Pakis would pee in their pants.

A simple compensation of $200 billion, and not a shot was fired.

[Gagan]

Those camps are not worth the bomb you drop.
We need to give a befitting response that destroys the Paki H&D....
Karachi port, Gadwar port, ISI headwaters
It has to be very symbolic...

India can't attack overtly any of these targets either. This will mean war, and bring out international platitudes of maintaining piss.
There are a whole lot of countries, who have not lost a single life in this incidence or the many before this all over the world, and who are just icthing to get into the thick of things by unloading all measure of Peacenik junk on india, should india do the unmentionable.
We stand to lose much of the sympathy if we act - and yet if we don't we will definitely lose all measure of respect of not only our own people, and nations all over, but most unfortunately lose all trust of investors who will then fear for the saftey of their investments in India.

A nation that does the correct things at the correct time on the principles of dharma is respected by one and all. I see us at a juncture much as Arjun was just before the mahayuddh. Unfortunately the guidance of the Lord is not available to our leaders it seems.

[A Arun]

Mahesh Bhatt's rendezvous with Indian Mujahideen men

“It showed me not all police versions are flawed. I felt some remorse.”

[samuel]

Can we sue India too, in India, for failure to adequately protect from terror, given all the intelligence information that the Americans supposedly warned Indians about. I am reaching, I know, but can this lawsuit be the basis for judicial action to enact a counter-terror organization or commitment (enshrined in law) to eliminate terror or to go after Pak? Our judiciary does seem to have some "guts"

And the court will rule in gov favor saying gov promises best-possible-security which depends on various factors you are not entitled to know.
File a RTI, and you will be answered that half the factors are top secret.

I don't disagree with you because this is how it has been, more or less on many issues.

But the US has publicly stated that it supplied intelligence information to India.
There is information still fresh and possibly cataloged in the public realm that intelligence sources have claimed to warn various govts of attack by sea. The FBI is working on-site and collecting evidence (ugh). So, if an NRI sues India in India and calls into evidence what the Americans supplied, would they come forward and share all that with a court?

Yeah, things will probably cock up very fast if we go this route...but I am not sure it is a total loss yet. At the least it serves to increase public awareness and create public opinion.

S

[milindc]

Those camps are not worth the bomb you drop.
We need to give a befitting response that destroys the Paki H&D....
Karachi port, Gadwar port, ISI headwaters
It has to be very symbolic...

No argument from me,
but how do you want to start and escalate the fight?

Launch an attack against Symbolic target.

PM comes on the National TV and says

I ordered punitive strikes against non-state actors based in Shit-stan'. I request TSP to arrest all the scums and send to India. TSP needs to ensure to that its territory is not used by non-state actors against India.
Any attack from TSP will be responded by 'all means, and I reiterate all means' available to India.

All the international players need to be told that we are very serious on response after our punitive attacks...

[animesharma]

And the court will rule in gov favor saying gov promises best-possible-security which depends on various factors you are not entitled to know.
File a RTI, and you will be answered that half the factors are top secret.

I don't disagree with you because this is how it has been, more or less on many issues.

But the US has publicly stated that it supplied intelligence information to India.
There is information still fresh and possibly cataloged in the public realm that intelligence sources have claimed to warn various govts of attack by sea. The FBI is working on-site and collecting evidence (ugh). So, if an NRI sues India in India and calls into evidence what the Americans supplied, would they come forward and share all that with a court?

Yeah, things will probably cock up very fast if we go this route...but I am not sure it is a total loss yet. At the least it serves to increase public awareness and create public opinion.

S

All intelligence report are rated top secret. So i guess they can't be produced in public court. you can't file a RTI either.
this is the reason why officials of such breed have no accountability. We don't even know who gave the info to who.
I am sry but i have no hopes with your approach.

[animesharma]

All the international players need to be told that we are very serious on response....

For that reason india should have started discussion after launching a few minor attacks, or may be a few brahmos to provide no-loss,It could have acted as a good pressure point.
or better call Pakistani delegate for discussion in delhi. Once they are in delhi, fire one or two brahmos and ground PIA flight. These TSPian will be really terrified.

[milindc]

Those camps are not worth the bomb you drop.
We need to give a befitting response that destroys the Paki H&D....
Karachi port, Gadwar port, ISI headwaters
It has to be very symbolic...

India can't attack overtly any of these targets either. This will mean war, and bring out international platitudes of maintaining piss.
There are a whole lot of countries, who have not lost a single life in this incidence or the many before this all over the world, and who are just icthing to get into the thick of things by unloading all measure of Peacenik junk on india, should india do the unmentionable.
We stand to lose much of the sympathy if we act -

Same applied when we went for Nuke tests....
Isolated , santions applied, and preaching from Sweden of all countries....
Where are we today? Better off not testing ....

in fact, I believe that it was this singular event that started the downward spiral of shit-stan. They tested just to preserve the H&D.
An unknown 'known' nuke status of Pakis would have been far more dangerous. (trying to pull Rumsfield here)

[Gagan]

Here is a dilemma quite similar to the one Atal Bihari Vajpayee faced during the Kargil Crisis. India had to demonstrate to the world that it is throwing out the occupying forces out of territory under its control, without any collateral damage to Pakistan (A most idiotic and foohardy thing to do but india did so nevertheless and retained international sympathy)

Again in 2008, we are being given the liberty to take out a target that can be verified as terror-related, with the caveat that there has to be no collateral damage to the pakistani state. This means no economic or military targets. India is expected to let off some steam in as futile an attack as the one Bill Clinton undertook when he ordered cruise missile strikes against Osama Bin Laden.

I think IAF may yet end up pounding some mud huts in POK with Pak vacating that area for a while and then India can be happy and can then shut up. This will be no different than what is happening on pakistan's other border with the predator strikes. Pakistan's government - meaning Zardari will have to be the fall guy, might even be forced to go - so that everyone in pakistan is happy in the end also.

I seriously don't expect anything on a higher scale than this. I'll be very surprised if even this gets carried out.

The UN resolution is a good idea too. It is about as useful as Arundhati Rao's utterings on a normal day, but it all adds to GOI's CV of the measures it undertook as a response to this attack.

[RajeshA]

The UN Resolution is needed for sanctioning a long-term terrorist busting program in Pakistan by regional countries or anybody else who wants to have some fun.

So yes, it would be a great thing!

[krithivas]

GoI could announce a substantial bounty ($100M / head, Total budget $ 2B) for the heads of those listed in the India's most wanted list.

If bounty hunters hit the wrong target - India employs plausible deniability.
If they hit the right target and is 100% verifiable - Pay them cash.

This will provide motivation for rival factions to go at each other, and possibly get international mercenaries into the hunt too.

R. Krithivas

[milindc]

Again in 2008, we are being given the liberty to take out a target that can be verified as terror-related, with the caveat that there has to be no collateral damage to the pakistani state.

One interesting thing about latest attacks is that there is no caveat. Yes, it is all diplomatic language, but I have yet to see any comment/statement/caveat from important players that states that there has to be no collateral damage to Paki state.

Gagan, why this assumption ?

[milindc]

The UN Resolution is needed for sanctioning a long-term terrorist busting program in Pakistan by regional countries or anybody else who wants to have some fun.

So yes, it would be a great thing!

RajeshA,
I guarantee you that only stakeholders who will go to UN are folks that want to maintain status quo..
If GoI approaches UN, rest assured that these are first order traitors to Indian cause. If any Indian leader or person states about approaching UN, mark and tag him, he is on Paki payroll.
Only entity that gets benefited by UN meddling at this Juncture is Shit-stan.

[Gagan]

No nation gives a carte-blanche to another for action that has the potential for all out war. The US will also not.

What the US will do however is:
1. Tie Pakistan's hands while India does some mud busting in POK - a most futile exercise.
2. Go full flow for a while with India in subverting Pakistan through covert means - a most useful exercise, but again with less than 7 weeks to go before Obama comes in, there is no saying how long this bonhomie and convergence of interests will last. The present dispensation in washington has this time only to allow india to do some letting off of steam - this time frame does not allow for an all out war to take place.

And India has to understand that this is all that it is allowed to do now, and it must do so now or even this modicum of a chance will pass.

JMTs

[R_Kumar]

Now with this corrupt culture no matter what we do we are bound to fail.
3 personnel of Goa police suspended for dereliction of duty

PTI | Panaji

Three Goa police personnel including an inspector were suspended in last twelve hours for ignoring security at Patradevi check post, a vital border link on Goa-Mumbai highway.

Police Inspector Nelson Albuquerque, Head Constable Atmaram Gaonkar and Constable Damodar Parab were suspended from the services after a surprise raid conducted by Inspector General of Police (IGP) Kishan Kumar revealed extortion on this check post.

"Head constable and constable were letting the vehicles go unchecked at the post after accepting bribe from the driver," a senior police official confirmed.

Albuquerque also faced the action as he was incharge of the post and was earlier issued a show-cause notice for allowing vehicles go unchecked from here.

The state has heightened the security around all its check posts in the wake of Mumbai terror attacks and also possibility of Goa being the target during Christmas and New Year.

Patradevi check post in Pernem taluka is a major entry point for the vehicles in Goa and is guarded by sleuths from Goa's Pernem police station.

The IGP last evening conducted a surprise inspection of the post wherein he found that a civilian was employed by police to collect hafta from the drivers of the vehicles.

[neelkamal]

guys check this site out

http://www.kashmir-information.com/Terr ... chine.html


**The red dots show the location of some of the well-documented terrorist camps operating in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir
(I do not know how to paste an image!!)

Nationalities of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir:
Pakistan, Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Afghanistan,
Egypt, Sudan, Yemen,
Bahrain, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq

[milindc]

Headlines Today releases an ad with all the Bollywood clowns saying 'we need to stand united against terror', but no a*hole had guts to say we will take fight to terrorists or pakis...

but overall nice package

How I wish all the Paki loving Bollywood types are asked about attacking Shit-stan?
We need to capture their mumbling responses for eternity...

[milindc]

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2008/12/112622.htm

Remarks With Indian Minister of External Affairs Pranab Mukherjee
Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Hyderabad House
New Delhi, India
December 3, 2008

MINISTER MUKHERJEE: Good evening, friends in the media, Her Excellency Dr. Condoleezza Rice, who is Secretary of State. This evening, I have just concluded discussions with Her Excellency Dr. Condoleezza Rice, who is Secretary of State. She has especially come to express the solidarity of the United States of America with India in the wake of the heinous attacks by terrorists who struck in several locations in Mumbai last week. We deeply appreciate this visit, Madame Secretary, and I welcome you.

I informed Dr. Rice that there is no doubt that the terrorist attack in Mumbai was perpetrated by individuals who came from Pakistan and whose controllers are in Pakistan. This is an assessment that is widely shared by the international community. I briefed Dr. Rice on the discussions we have had with the Government of Pakistan following the Mumbai terrorist attack and our expectations of cooperation from them to ensure that the terrorists and organizations who participated these attacks are arrested and brought to justice. We expect all friendly governments in the international community to ensure that this happens.

I have also conveyed to Secretary Rice the feeling of anger and deep outrage in India for (inaudible) terrorist attacks in Mumbai which were preceded by similar terrorist attacks in other major cities of India earlier this year in Jaipur, Bandu, Ahmedabad, Delhi, and now in Mumbai. Almost 350 innocent lives have been lost in these attacks and more than 733 people injured (inaudible – these six incidents. Government of India (inaudible) needs to act defensively to protect India’s territory and integrity, and the right of our citizens to a peaceful life with all the means at our disposal. We look forward to the international community’s cooperation in our longstanding struggle against terrorism.

I would now like to invite Secretary Rice to make (inaudible). Thank you.

SECRETARY RICE: Thank you very much, and thank you, Minister. I had not expected to return to India as Secretary of State following my visit here just a couple of months ago, but I come because the President of the United States, the American people want India to know that the United States stands in solidarity with the people of India. I come with condolences for those who have lost their lives, those who have been maimed, for their families, for the people of Mumbai, for the ordeal through which they’ve just been, and for the people of India.

I think that Americans, perhaps as well as any understand what -- the feelings that run so deep at a time like this, having experienced the attacks of September 11th. We certainly understand too that there is a strong demand for bringing the perpetrators of such a crime to justice, and a deep desire to prevent any further attacks from taking place.

And Minister, I came also to pledge the cooperation of the United States in both those tasks. We are going to work very closely with you in any way that we can to try and get to the bottom of what happened, and then to help you to act on that, but also recognizing that in matters of terrorism, it is not just a matter of the punishment of the crime that has taken place. It is also a matter of preventing these terrorists who continue to plot and plan from perpetrating further crimes and further attacks.

I know too how difficult it is to take information and to make it into knowledge and then to be able to act on it. And I have said that the United States also has a good deal of experience in the counterterrorism fight and how one has to organize differently for that counterterrorism fight. I know, Minister, and have spoken with the Home Minister, that you are looking at reforms here in India as well. And I applaud, for instance, the Prime Minister’s emphasis on terrorist financing and other ways to track these killers.

I also want to note that the United States believes strongly that having lost our own citizens in this attack, this is a matter of concern not just because of our relationship with India, but because American lives were also lost. So it’s a matter of deep concern. And in that regard, we have made very clear that we expect all responsible nations to participate and cooperate in bringing these perpetrators to justice, and that Pakistan has a special responsibility to do so, and to do so transparently, fully, urgently. And that is a message that we have delivered. I have noted that President Zardari has pledged the cooperation of the Pakistani Government. It is a new civilian government. And we fully expect that those pledges of cooperation are going to be carried out and carried out fully.

And so, Minister, I know that this is a very difficult time for the people of India, for the people of Mumbai. But I hope that it is a time also when you can feel the sense of solidarity and support that is there in the international community from your friends. I was just in Great Britain. I know that the British are helping too. And I hope that you know more than anything that you are not alone in this fight. There are many of us who experience – who’ve experienced this terror, and we stand united in our determination to defeat. Thank you.

MODERATOR: Thank you, Madame Secretary. Two questions will be taken from each side. Kindly introduce yourself and your organization and indicate to whom the question is addressed to. First from the Indian side, (inaudible).

QUESTION: Good evening, (inaudible), CNN (inaudible). I have a question to each of the ministers.

To Minister Mukherjee first. Sir, your government has made it very clear, as – in fact, one Pakistan – of the clause in the bilateral relationship, if Pakistan does not deliver on your demands. Now today, we’ve heard President Zardari actually rule out the (inaudible) of 20 or 21 most wanted Indians and Pakistanis. How do you respond to that? Do you actually take action after this matter?

And to Ms. Rice, do you see the statement from the President as evidence of cooperation? And there are two parts to this question. My second question would be you say there have been steps to offer solidarity to the Indian Government. Would your government be willing to support any (inaudible) military strikes into Pakistan (inaudible)?

MR. MUKHERJEE: So far, Government of India is concerned, more action will be taken by the government -- will depend on the response which we have from the Pakistan authorities. We have given (inaudible) and expecting the response. After obtaining the response (inaudible), the government will consider it necessary to protect its territorial integrity, sovereignty and security of the -- of its civilians, government (inaudible). Thank you.

SECRETARY RICE: The response of the Pakistani Government should be one of cooperation and that – and that is what we expect, and we have been sending that message. In all responses, whether they are responses of governments around the world or the response of the Indian Government, the goal should be to make certain that the investigation gets to the bottom of what happened, that the perpetrators are brought to justice, and that there is enough information and a depth of understanding so that an effort can be made to prevent further attacks.

The hard thing about terrorism is that it’s not (inaudible) law enforcement-- it’s not a matter of waiting until a crime is committed and then you punish the perpetrators. The long pole in the tent, the effort, has to be to prevent. And that is what we are going to help India, and others are going to help India, and we believe Pakistan has an essential role to play in this to make certain that these terrorists cannot continue to operate and operate in this fashion.

Any response needs to be judged by its effectiveness in prevention, and also by not creating other unintended consequences or difficulties, that we are going to work very closely over this time. And as I said, we’re focused with India on both bringing the perpetrators to justice and on preventing further attacks. And I just want to underscore again, Americans were killed in this attack as well, so it’s especially concerning the United States.

MODERATOR: I solicit your cooperation. Kindly restrict yourself to one question.

MR. MCCORMACK: Next question, Anne Gearan with Associated Press.

QUESTION: Anne Gearan, AP, a question to each of you. Madame Secretary, can you be more specific when you say that this attack was different and you’re asking for a different kind of response from India and Pakistan, what specifically about it tells you that it’s distinct from previous terror attacks? And do you see the hand of al-Qaida anywhere in it?

And to Mr. Minister, I understand that just today a – some explosives were found in a train station in Mumbai that apparently had been there for a week. What confidence can the Indian people have that you’ve found all that there is to find and that they are safe?

SECRETARY RICE: Anne, I did not mean to suggest that there haven’t been other attacks. There have been. My point was concerning the sophistication of this attack, the way in which it was carried out, the targets that were obviously simultaneously attacked. And that, in itself, I think is somewhat different than attacks that have been seen in the past. But the response has to be the same, which is that the perpetrators have to be caught, they have to be brought to justice and they – and there has to be a maximal effort on preventing further attacks.

As to al-Qaida, let me be very clear. I – we are not saying that al-Qaida is the perpetrator here, and I want that to be very much understood. There are elements of this, the sophistication of it, which remind us that these extremists – and there are no good terrorists, they’re all extremists and they all have to be dealt with – that they are perhaps learning from each other. They move in the same circles. But clearly, the sophistication of the attack was really what I was addressing.

QUESTION: The closest (inaudible)?

MINISTER MUKHERJEE: In fact, we had a full (inaudible) city, and rapidly, there is a (inaudible). But essentially, the (inaudible) measure of the series of attacks which India received just this year – I mentioned in my statement that (inaudible) when the attacks have taken place, and I believe that that is right. (Inaudible) of the attacks are (inaudible) important to reach centers like (inaudible) national capital Delhi, and national capital Mumbai. Capital – if not capital, but very important place from (inaudible) science, technology, (inaudible). Therefore, (inaudible) is trying to (inaudible) at the development of scientific and economic ability of the country. And we have just lost forever our (inaudible). Thank you.

MODERATOR: Munish.

QUESTION: Munish , (inaudible) news service. Especially addressed to Madame Secretary of State, what (inaudible). Pakistan – Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has made non-state actors for various activities with the region. And we (inaudible) of these elements that usually are patronized by sections of the Pakistani establishment and could be responsible for the (inaudible). Now in certain situation, what – how should India and the United States cooperate (inaudible) with Pakistan? And also, they decide presence of governments, so that government’s view linking Pakistan-based elements (inaudible)? Thank you.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I’m not going to speculate on what might be found when investigations are complete. I do know that the Pakistani Government, under President Zardari, has pledged its complete cooperation, and that it needs to be transparent in that cooperation. The fact is that non-state actors sometimes operate within the confines of a state, on the territory of a state. And when that is the case, then there has to be very direct and tough action against them.

And so that is really the issue here. I think we need to let the facts lead where they may. The investigation is still underway. It can be done with as much forensic help as is needed from international parties. I know that Britain has expressed a desire to help. We have expressed a desire to help. But what we really need to do is to let the leads go where they may without premature speculation of how this might have actually taken place. But non-state actors – that’s still a matter of responsibility if, in fact, it somehow relates to your territory.

MR. MCCORMACK: The final question to Sylvie Lanteaume from AFP.

QUESTION: Sylvie Lanteaume, Agence France Press. Madame Secretary, how are you going to improve the intelligence sharing between India and Pakistan? Do you have any special step in mind or regional mechanism?

And Mr. Minister, what would you think about such a mechanism with the U.S. as a partner?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think the key here, Sylvie, is to worry less about what mechanisms there may be and more about just getting the job done. I think that there is a lot of information that various parties have concerning what happened on this attack. The – as the forensics go forward to look at what happened in the actual attack on the scene and as people are interviewed, more information will become available. And I don’t think we need to worry so much about a specific mechanism. I do think we need to make certain that there is proper coordination, and this can be done through regular channels of the various parties. So I do think the United States and others have a lot to add.

Let me just make a point. Everybody needs help. The United States has needed help in intelligence sharing, in cooperation. This isn’t a matter that any country handles on its own. The very nature of this terrorist threat is that it crosses borders. The very nature of this terrorist threat is that it locates different elements in different parts of the world. And so when we talk about cooperation, we are talking about something that is inherent in the nature of dealing with a terrorist threat that is global, not confined to a particular area. And so there isn’t really anything new in that sense. India and the United States have been cooperating. We have been cooperating with Great Britain when there have been threats that – against Britain or against the United States or against neighbors of the world. It sometimes requires cooperation with India.

So we have developed contacts for doing this, but we’re going to do it in a more intensive and urgent manner, because again, I want to emphasize that, yes, it is extremely important to bring these people to justice, but it is really important that we remember that when you’re dealing with terrorists, your goal is to also have prevention very much in mind.

MINISTER MUKHERJEE: We have a mechanism in which we share intelligence with USA and also with other countries. The importance of sharing this mechanism is more now if terrorism is to be stopped collectively by the international community. It is not confined to one country. Terrorism has no limit, either political or otherwise. They are the biggest menace to the world peace and tranquility in the post-Cold War era. They are (inaudible) by the entire international community. And for that, intelligence sharing is an important (inaudible). Thank you.

MODERATOR: Thank you. This brings the evening to a close. Thank you for coming.
2008/T30-6

[Gagan]

Here you go Neelkamal

Terror camps in Pakistan.