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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 06:14
by Atri
Raam garu, what about han chauvinism? :P

Anything that suites han chauvinism is taken, be it Buddha, marx, mao or satan.

Cosmo_R ji - :D touche

What question now is, what is profitable? having a Clone army OR council of original "jedi masters"? PRC has made the choice.. Have we? To make the analogy "Indic", what is profitable - To have Yadava Army on our side OR to have krishna on our side :P

[OT]Krishna is so apt and cleaver in referring to arjun as "bhaarat" on so many occasions. One of the fantastic "psyops" IMO[/OT]

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 06:30
by TonyMontana
Atri wrote: There has been considerable influence of concepts which happened to evolve in India on cultural and ideological sphere of China. There is nothing inferior about taking up certain ideological memes from some other place and adapt it to one's environment.
My thoughts exactly.
RamaY wrote: It shows apparent lack of creativity in the society. If they ancient China got its philosophy from India, it got Marxism from Germany, and now economic imperialism from America.
A wise student by now would have learned that only its philosophical teacher remained strong over millennium. Everything else met their inherent demise.
Unfortunately PRC failed to be a good student too.
It's interesting that you think there is lack of creativity in Chinese society. Maybe it is true to certain extent currently, but historically? I put that down to ignorance. But hey. I get where you're coming from. There's plenty of Chinese that like to think they came up with East Asian culture too.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 07:03
by Pulikeshi
Atri wrote:To make the analogy "Indic", what is profitable - To have Yadava Army on our side OR to have krishna on our side :P
Depends if Pārtha's uncle is in decline, but has the wisdom and knowledge to impart.
Lest Pārtha become Ekalavya!

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 26 Oct 2010 07:17
by Atri
Pulikeshi wrote:
Atri wrote:To make the analogy "Indic", what is profitable - To have Yadava Army on our side OR to have krishna on our side :P
Depends if Pārtha's uncle is in decline, but has the wisdom and knowledge to impart.
Lest Pārtha become Ekalavya!
If Paartha becomes Ekalavya, the Dronacharyas of UNSC will definitely ask for thumb of Kashmir (or something equally vital). Whether Arjun will oblige depends largely on whether the Paartha is being guided by Yudhishthira OR Madhava..

The current Dronas are not demanding similar "pound of flesh" from the incumbent knowledge-thief who is known to reverse-engineer everything and then distribute the cookies to local baddies.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 27 Oct 2010 05:02
by Arihant
RamaY wrote:^ Another aspect is

It shows apparent lack of creativity in the society. If they ancient China got its philosophy from India, it got Marxism from Germany, and now economic imperialism from America.

A wise student by now would have learned that only its philosophical teacher remained strong over millennium. Everything else met their inherent demise.

Unfortunately PRC failed to be a good student too.
RamaY and fellow BRFites: I put up that little titbit about the Indic origins of the famed Chinese dragon myth only so that it might filed away as potential ammunition in future debates that we will be obliged to have to counter the (shoddily)manufactured history that the Chinese will continue to peddle.

We should not allow ourselves to baited into an inane debate with this TonyMontana person, because that would serve no useful purpose at all...

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 01:25
by Pulikeshi
Can Americans Think (Strategically)?

Interesting take by Kishore Mahbubani
(The dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, National University of Singapore.)

Quick summary:

1. US faces two geo-political challenges - a) Islamist threat b) Rise of China in Asia.
2. US has incorrectly focused on the former and not on the latter and need to do more on China.
3. US becoming a unipolar player caused it to go down this mistaken road in point (2).
4. Having a multi-polar rule based world the best solution going forward.
5. China needs more prodding and encouragement to ensure a peaceful rise.

Some of my points to counter:

Do not have much argument with points 1 & 2. Even though it is not a Boolean as
Kishore makes it out to be. Points 3&4 going by Mearsheimer a Bi-polar world is most
stable, again, one can argue multi-polarity till one is blue in the face. On 5, it is easy
to say be more patient and keep prodding them along, but that is fine at a 50k foot level.
Perhaps his book has more relevance for policy options, more than 'US please educate
the rest of the world in your universities to make the world a better place.'

Some broad trends he would do well to incorporate:

1. Rise of 'Asia' is an incorrect way to characterize what is going on.
European part of Brihat-Asia was 200 years ago, today's Africa. Now Europe has
become on par with what Central and Eastern Brihat-Asia used to be pre 18th century.
The rise of Central and Eastern Brihat-Asia comes with the decline of Far-West Brihat-Asia (Europe).

2. This decline in Far-West Brihat-Asia, with a weak Central Brihat-Asia (India and a
fractured Af-Pak) is what leads to instability in what is characterized as the Middle-East.
That is Western (Middle-East today) Brihat-Asia requires either a stronger India or a
stronger Turkey or Iran to stabilize it. In preventing India from performing its traditional
roles, the instability of the region has been continued in perpetuity.

2. In Central/Eastern Brihat-Asia no absolute regional hegemon can emerge.
India & China will do well to reconcile themselves as the twins of the region.
A repeat, on steroids, the mistakes made in the Mediterranean in the
Indian Ocean Mandala would be suicidal. However, things do not look optimistic.

3. The US is a non-Brihat-Asian hemispheric power. Therefore the US needs to extend
its resources to maintain its power in the Brihat-Asian region. Ironically from a US
perspective, China is a better ally than India (reasons are a separate topic in itself).
Yet, in characterizing itself as an 'Asian' power China is making a strategic mistake.
India on the other hand makes a rather poor partner from the US point of view.
However, in not having aggressive great power ambitions, several other powers would
view India as a stabilizer and a friend. In this sense, India is playing its strategic cards right.

4. India has to work beyond a denial role in the Indian Ocean Mandala. Th Indian Ocean
is a connector Ocean between the Atlantic and the Pacific. This means that flow of
commerce in the Indian Ocean is only going to increase exponentially as the rise of
the Central/Eastern Brihat-Asia continues. India needs to mind her pond!

As always my two paisa for free. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 01:41
by ramana
Puikeshi< I hadnt payed much attention to your characterisation of Brihat Asia etc due to rusty understanding. However what you say is very true.

Braudel in his book "Civilization and Capitalism till 17th century" third volume, says India is like a pendulum in the center of Asia and the balance in Asia is based on which way she leans. He says prior to the Islamic onslaught, India was leaning eastwards and after the onslaught she was leaning westwards. The decline of East Asia after the onslaught is directly related to her disengagment.
IOW you are on solid territory. Please try to develop your ideas more fully.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 10:41
by abhishek_sharma
Robert Kaplan's Journey to the New Center of the Universe
An exclusive FP interview with the author of Monsoon on the fight to control the Indian Ocean.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... e_universe

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 20:07
by ramana
I dont know what dream world he was in till now. Adm Mahan clearly states in late 1800s, the control of Indian Ocean is key to modern geopolitics. While Mackinder wanted to control the Eurasia, Mahan said its more ciritcal to control Indian Ocean.

BTW the bias is seen in the title of the Kaplan's book as "Monsoon". Monsoon is a season in the Indian Ocean while the Indian Ocean endures all thru the year and is named after India. He doesnt want to call the Indian ocean Indina like a lot of other people like Sukarno!

An Indic question: How can one see the world, when one squints their eyes!

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 23:01
by Pulikeshi
Ramana,

Thanks for the encouragement, it is still a work in progress. Some thinking aloud:

Is a tri-polar world inherently more stability than a bi-polar world?
India (and friends) ought to consider if a tri-polar (ala Trimurthi) world is more stable.
There is lot of lip service payed to a multi-polar world, but that perhaps is not the end goal.

Another track to spend some gray cells on is to consider balance of power equations:
Even if the current regime in China collapses, the country of China is still going to remain
relevant in East Brihat-Asia. This means, India remains the pivot between EU+Russia and China.
Further a US balanced by Brazil in the American Hemisphere provides a check.

From an Indic point of view the above is in broadest terms a "multi-polar" solution.
The key is to limit it to three players - ICU - still needs fine tuning.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 28 Oct 2010 23:34
by chetak
This is a bit rich. :lol:


Chinese-daily-accuses-India-of-encircling-China


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 831397.cms

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 31 Oct 2010 09:23
by abhishek_sharma
China’s Fast Rise Leads Neighbors to Join Forces

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/world ... china.html

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 02 Nov 2010 23:16
by ramana
Time for reset of Indo-US ties

Truly belongs here

Hindu Op-Ed

Time for reset of Indi-US ties
M.K. Bhadra Kumar

Barack Obama's visit has triggered an extraordinarily creative period in the Indian strategic thinking. How do we bring all these strands of new thinking together?

Whichever way one looks at it, there is going to be an indeterminate fatefulness when United States President Barack Obama arrives in India. Not that Mr. Obama is god or that he is an elderly bearded man wrapped in a swirling cloak with the “finger of the paternal right hand” — as in the fourth section of the Michelangelo fresco on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Nor is India Adam waiting to receive the spark of life.

The point is, in comparison with the U.S. Presidents New Delhi has welcomed in a generation or two, Mr. Obama is truly a brilliant intellectual with a view of the world imbued with the struggle of the mankind for survival, dignity and development. Fareed Zakaria tactfully described him as “a kind of practical idealist” who admired George Bush Sr.'s approach to ending the Cold War in an apparently cooperative way, with an emphasis on productive, constructive relations with the world powers. Mr. Obama is also someone instinctively wary of ideology and shrewd enough to balance the impulse of principle and the realities of politics — a master of the rhetoric of common ground.

The Indian strategic community did not seem to have got him right when it anticipated him as a crusader of “Asian democracy” — a code word for “containment” of China. Do not look beyond the joint statement issued after the third session of the U.S.-Pakistan Strategic Dialogue that concluded in Washington recently. It speaks of a “strategic, comprehensive and long-term partnership” between the two countries based on “shared values, mutual respect, and mutual interests.” We may expect similar rhetoric on India, too.

Passionate moralism has never been a trait of Mr. Obama's political personality and the Indian establishment has done well to leave the rhetoric of his visit almost entirely to the able hands of American officials and instead concentrate on the hardball — “real politics,” as a top Indian policymaker candidly put it. Having said that, Mr. Obama is also a man of infinite charm with a rare capacity for cheerful impersonal friendliness who, with his gargantuan self-confidence bordering almost on hauteur, can very gracefully stoop to conquer to ease jealousies or form alliances.

One thing is absolutely certain. As the dusk gently descends on Delhi in the balmy autumn evening of November 8, Mr. Obama is destined to deliver a great speech in the hallowed Central Hall of Parliament.

{So they have an advance copy or its contours.}

Indeed, Mr. Obama's visit is going to be a fateful happening in the region's tangled history and politics. So much has changed since a U.S. President last visited India in 2005. The geopolitics of the region has changed and alongside, inevitably, the U.S.-Pakistan pivotal cooperation in the Afghan endgame has crystallised, the world has changed, India has changed, and indeed the trajectory of the U.S. and India's expectations and aspirations has hugely transformed. Situating the U.S.-India relationship against this complex backdrop truly demands a “reset.” Except in a dogmatic way, it is not possible to see the future of the relationship as turning, and turning in a widening gyre of alliance equation. Perhaps, there never was such an equation. There is indeed a disconnect between our pundits and policymakers here. The Indian leadership seems willing to apply new thinking. Will our pundits be capable of appreciating that the U.S. has specific regional and global interests and its partnership can be selective?

First and foremost, India's regional environment. National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon's keynote address — in the August presence of Rashtrapathiji — at the 75th jubilee of the National Defence College underscored that a lot of creative thinking is going on to structure a forward-looking strategic vision that can help India navigate the highly volatile regional and international situation. The global vision based on the “balance of power,” which our pundits merrily espoused for a decade, has been exposed as naivety. India does not foresee the prospect of the major powers using force in their dealings with each other. This, in turn, makes the emergence of a direct conflict betwixt them or involving any of them with India highly improbable, no matter the existing discords, disputes or differences. Again, a nuclear war or confrontation between nuclear powers is not as likely, as threats which are derivatives of nuclear deterrence such as terrorism strain the very fabric of a country like India, which is secular, plural, and democratic.


{Above is the Indian world view after the 2008 financial collapse and the subsequent reset underway. It means expect more terrorism which is enabled under the nuke umbrella. So new instruments of deterrence are needed. Asymmetric but needed.}


In sum, Mr. Obama's visit has triggered an extraordinarily creative period in the Indian strategic thinking. How do we bring all these strands of new thinking together? Evidently, as Mr. Menon brilliantly summed up: “The challenges of a globalised world cannot be handled by twentieth century military alliances or containment strategies.”

Hasn't something fundamentally changed in the world order since the international financial crisis erupted? The emerging powers have shown unexpected resilience to pull through the crisis while the industrial world continues to languish. China and India in particular are cruising forward at great speed and are becoming evermore innovative. A transfer of wealth of historic proportions may be under way. As Paul Krguman wrote recently, this has engendered claims that the payback time is approaching for the emerging powers to transfer some of their new wealth to the ailing U.S. economy. China already figures in the U.S. cross hairs and India needs to carefully figure out when its turn might come. There is a lot of churning going on at the moment, as the meeting of the G-20 Finance Ministers in the South Korean city of Gyeongju underscored. The U.S. displayed its determination to push for “fair” exchange rate rules and for setting numerical targets for trade balance, while India and China promptly rebuffed the move. The paradox is that whereas the G-20 has emerged as the most important forum for global economic policymaking since the financial crisis, it is increasingly finding it difficult to agree on anything but the broadest brushstrokes.

The Indian strategic analysts who visualise an alliance of Asian democracies or conjecture a U.S.-India axis patrolling the “global commons” are not seeing the writing on the wall — that the number one priority for a highly focussed leader like Mr. Obama is going to be global issues such as trade balance and exchange rates, and climate change, which are of immense concern to his agenda of regenerating the ailing American economy. Mr. Obama would like to know how India sees its interests and explore if tangible benefits can be derived to generate new jobs in America. He can anticipate that the Seoul heads of government meeting in November may turn out to be a damage limitation exercise rather than a leap forward toward a monumental agreement on rebalancing the global economy. In short, trust an extraordinary cerebral mind like Mr. Obama's to be able to comprehend the meaning of India's rise. That he empathises with India is not in doubt, but these are hard times.

The lobby of American arms manufacturers played up China's growing diplomatic and military clout and the angst of our pundits poured out on newspaper columns. But let us hear first how the U.S. proposes to deal with China's rise. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said last week: “The relationship between China and the U.S. is complex and of enormous consequence, and we are committed to getting it right … In the 21st century, it is not in anyone's interest for the U.S. and China to see each other as adversaries. So, we are working together to chart a positive, cooperative, and comprehensive relationship for this new century … And we do look forward to closely working with China, both bilaterally and through key institutions as it takes on a greater role and, at the same time, takes on more responsibility in global and international affairs.”

She highlighted, “We will welcome President Hu Jintao to Washington in early 2011 ... The United States is committed to making this visit a historic success.” Our pundits should do some honest introspection. Surely, there's some political symbolism in that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh scheduled four meetings with the Chinese leadership in the weeks straddling Mr. Obama's visit — “stop in India” during his “major trip to Asia,” as Ms Clinton quaintly put it.

Similarly, it has been crystal clear that the U.S. is involved in a clausewitzean war in Afghanistan. The David Headley saga is a stunning reminder that realpolitik can trump soap operas of the “concert of democracies.” Alas, our discourses are again missing the plot to imagine that our discord with Washington is merely a question concerning the Taliban or the Haqqani network. It's much more profound and it is long-term. Pakistan will be a pivotal relationship for the U.S. in the “new great game” once Gwadar shapes up as the port head of the Silk Road (protected by NATO), unlocking the multitrillion dollar mineral wealth of Central Asia and Afghanistan. A reset of India-U.S. ties has become necessary for deepening the partnership despite such glaring differences.

(The writer is a former diplomat.)
However he present no insights on how such a reset is constructed!

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 03 Nov 2010 20:01
by Christopher Sidor
chetak wrote:This is a bit rich. :lol:


Chinese-daily-accuses-India-of-encircling-China


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 831397.cms
Not quite. With India being offered bases in Vietnam, building a deeper and more meaningful relationship with japan, korea and US, China can view itself being encircled. China was playing the waiting game with US/Japan and its allies in East Asia. In this game, China wins due to it sheer size. Throw India into the matrix and the game changes dramatically against China. It looses in the waiting game.

China cannot access the sea, without going through the so called first island chain or the second island chain. Today these chains are in the firm hands of the yanks. And this chain can be yanked by the yanks if they feel like. India does not face the same situation, where as access to sea is concerned. We have to thank A&N and Lakshwadeep islands for this.

One way of looking at the "Chinese chain of pearl strategy", is to have infrastructure/options available which can be used by China, if it is denied the right to use the Pacific ocean and its water ways. That is why ports in Burma/Pakistan become important. Both of these countries are extremely dependent on China. Currently China does not have the navy, nor will it have a navy in the next 10 years, which can be stationed in Indian Ocean and can beat IN on its own turf. The problem is that IN due to its sheer size and capability cannot be beaten by PLAN. IN can enforce a blockade and deny China the use of these ports, which form part of the "chain or pearls".

Does that mean we should be complacent regarding these so called "pearls"? The answer is NO. These pearls are a long term threat to India. And India will have to deal with these pearls and have a strategy to eliminate them if required.
Does that mean that we should go and assuage chinese fears regarding the so called "encirclement" of China? Absolutely NOT. In fact we should stoke these fears even more. Having an exercise with Japans IDF's, USN, etc to blockade and neutralize these pearls, would be one way of doing it. :wink:

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 07:44
by Prem
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-0 ... house.html

We have to look at the totality” of China’s efforts, said Representative Randy Forbes, a Virginia Republican who may become head of the House Armed Services readiness subcommittee. Once lawmakers focus on emerging challenges in areas from cyber warfare to aircraft carriers to missiles, they’ll say, “We better be changing our readiness capability.”
That would entail shifting more money toward weapons programs, rather than increasing spending, benefiting makers of sea-based anti-missile systems, submarines, destroyers and long- range drones. Another winner could be Alliant Techsystems Inc., which is developing targets to test defenses against a supersonic Chinese anti-ship missile. The political impetus to cut defense spending may grow when a bipartisan commission appointed by President Barack Obama next month releases recommendations on how to rein in the federal deficit. The Pentagon budget, which totaled $691 billion last year, may be one target. ‘1% Real Increase’

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 07:49
by Prem
http://www.businessinsider.com/election ... ns-2010-11
Here's What The 2010 Election Means For US-China Relations
The Chinese, and China’s leaders in particular, like stability, both at home and in their relations with other countries. They find these kind of dramatic electoral swings — whether it’s Obamamania in 2008 or the Tea Party Revolution in 2010 — perplexing and a bit unnerving. The Chinese prefer dealing with known quantities, and then all of a sudden a new group of people are swept into power, who have to be figured out. Typically, the Chinese wait and see, hoping nothing fundamental will change
In fact, however, that’s rooted more in perception than reality. America’s China policy, from Bush Sr. to Clinton to W to Obama, has been remarkably consistent. Differences that do exist over China don’t split neatly along party lines — a broad range of views can be found in both parties. Republicans, when they are critical, tend to focus more on the potential national security threat posed by China. Democrats tend to focus more on the economic threat to American jobs. But even this distinction is far from absolute.
In fact, the real danger to China is that the bipartisan consensus that has lasted for nearly 40 years may be starting to break down. The factor that is driving this breakdown — and leading to all those anti-China campaign ads, from both sides – isn’t so much a political change in the U.S. (although the depressed state of the US economy isn’t helping any) but China’s own rising power and influence, and concern over what that means. In many ways, China is coming to occupy the same place in the American imagination that Japan did in the 1980s. ( In late 80s Japanese were on rise , Sony CEO wrote book "Japan can Say NO")

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 08:45
by ramana
Pretty good find Prem. Especially the bolded part.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 09:51
by Pratyush
Well, if the PRC is not careful it will end up in the same situation Japan has been in the last 20 years. Add to that the hostility generated by it it things get interesting to watch.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 10:23
by Rudradev
Interesting, the Japan analogy.

Of course, the Japanese peril of the 80s took care of itself. Mainly because of Japan following the global free-market rules of currency valuation (the Yen became a monster, increasing the costs of Japanese exports and also forcing production to move overseas) and also with a little help from Soros and friends (the rampant currency speculation of the early '90s that precipitated the East Asian crash of '97.) Japan never quite recovered from that. In the mid '90s the internet revolution brought the center of gravity of innovation squarely back to the United States, followed by a gigantic boom in the US economy. Everything had been set right once again, from Washington's point of view.

This is unlikely to happen with China. As of this year they pretend to let the Yuan float, but they've learned the Japanese lesson well, and the Yuan is but a Shikhandi insulating the grossly-undervalued RMB. They are also unlikely to face a situation where the domestic economy slumps into the doldrums as dramatically as Japan's did, since they have a vast consumer market of their own. Their industrial base is stronger, and manufacturing labour is far more abundant and inexpensive than it was in late 1980s Japan.

The big difference today, of course, is that the dollar itself stands on unprecedentedly shaky ground. The solitary indestructible pillar of the post-Bretton-Woods financial world is vulnerable as never before. The Chinese can tell the US Fed to go f*ck themselves with far more confidence than the Japanese could ever muster at the height of their economic power.

Interesting in this light is an article Ramana posted on another thread:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=21716
This outflow from the dollar is not the kind of capital that takes the form of tangible investment in plant and equipment, buildings, research and development. It is not a creation of assets as much as the creation of debt, and its multiplication by mirroring, credit insurance, default swaps and an array of computerized forward trades. The global financial system has decoupled from trade and investment, taking on a life of its own.

In fact, financial conquest is seeking today what military conquest did in times past: control of land and basic infrastructure, industry and mining, banking systems and even government finances to extract the economic surplus as interest and tollbooth-type economic rent charges. U.S. officials euphemize this policy as “quantitative easing.” The Federal Reserve is flooding the banking system with so much liquidity that Treasury bills now yield less than 1%, and banks can draw freely on Fed credit. Japanese banks have seen yen borrowing rates fall to 0.25%.
Some points to ponder.

1) In the post-Bretton-Woods world (1946-2008), "free trade" was sold to the rest of the world by the Americans, particularly the Hamiltonians, as the human race's best available guarantee against war, chaos and instability. When nations were doing business with each other, it was theorized, they would be far too invested in each others' stability to challenge each other militarily.

2) The above sales pitch was predicated on one thing only... the world's absolute faith in the global dominance of the US dollar, established first during the Roosevelt-Ibn Saud talks of the 1930s as the primary currency for oil valuation, and then consolidated at Bretton Woods with the creation of the World Bank, the IMF and the dollar standard.

3) Hamiltonians since that time, have gone to any extent to assure the pre-eminence of the US dollar. Much of the United States' West Asia policy from the 1970s onwards, all the way up to the invasion of Iraq can be seen in this light. So can their policies towards the other nations of the Americas, if one pays attention.

4) The recent economic crisis in the United States threatens to completely turn the system on its head, because the world is losing faith in the US dollar. The primary cause of this, as the author describes, is that post-Reaganomics America led to the global financial system (with its helmsmen at Wall Street) taking on a "life of its own." The slump in US productivity following the Clinton presidency was not reflected by the sort of classic economic consequences one might have seen two or three decades earlier; rather, the financial Frankenstein continued to feed itself through the creation of debt (and its hot-air derivatives). When the crash hit home with the Lehman Bros collapse many years later, it was all the more damaging for having been delayed. The damage was worst of all to the credibility of the United States Dollar itself.

5) The results of this have been well articulated in the article.

Once upon a time, we were told that "free trade is the best guarantor of stability and peace."

Then all of a sudden it became clear how vacuous the myth of the almighty dollar actually was.

Now the entire story has changed. The edifice of assumptions on which the old story was based, is smashed. There is no longer absolute faith in the dollar or the global financial system it nurtured and supported. It is a time of uncertainty, and in times of uncertainty, nations grab what they can. Fearing instability, they hasten the arrival of greater instability.

Now...
In fact, financial conquest is seeking today what military conquest did in times past.
We might, indeed, paraphrase Clausewitz's old dictum to say: "Trade has become the Continuation of War by Other Means."

6) Since the middle of the last decade, the Chinese have either seen this coming, or they have been behaving as if they saw it coming albeit for some other reason. Their thrusts into Africa, Latin America, and Asia have all had the spirit of "military conquest by financial means" about them... whether it's copper mines in Afghanistan or gas fields in Burma. They are not investing in developed economies, institutionally, in the way the Americans once invested in their own economy. They are grabbing what they once would have taken with PLA troops, now with the vast reserves of cash they have appreciated.

Ever since the dollar took a WWF-class bodyslam in 1998... the Chinese have intensified their practices with the ferocity of a shark tasting blood in the water.

7) According to the article above... the US, for totally different reasons (its own economy collapsing, the demise of the Bretton-Woods-era financial system, the loss of confidence of its own investors in the dollar and all the practices and assumptions that went along with that)... is in some ways, beginning to do the same thing as the Chinese have for the last decade. Military conquest by financial means.

It is like Spain and Portugal after the treaty of Zargasso, out to subject the whole world to colonization with their unparalleled military might. Except right now, it's financial might that is being used.

8 ) Where will this end up? I don't know. What does it mean for India? It means that we will have to gird our economy as we gird our physical borders. Man the battlements and dig in for a fight. Shoot down overflying predatory investors on sight. Maintain free-fire zones to resist any attempt by the US or China to overrun certain key sectors of the Indian economy... strategic energy generation for one, defense for another, banking for a third, mass media for a fourth.

And demand of our Indian financial players the same absolute dedication to duty, the same total prioritization of national interest that we do of the Jawans and Officers guarding our land. And hang the Harshad Mehtas and Ramalinga Rajus as we would deserters from our regiments... utterly without clemency, for their treasonous dereliction of duty.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 18:41
by Hari Seldon
^^^+1 only RD.

Bravo.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 04 Nov 2010 22:09
by Prem
WEST- China competition opens up many economic oppertunities for India which we did not have before . How does India untilize them for its own development purpose is entirely a different issue. Its not China will become like Japan , its about the preception and fear regarding China's quarreling behaviour which is becoming detrimental for its partners and neighbors. Current global economic and security enviorement now present the best opertunity for India after a millenium or so and must be optimised using both spatting parties to enhance India's core interests and achieve the right global equilibirium where no party dominate unless India blesses so.Can we do it, yes and all it require is confidence as we already posses the brain and brawn? If forsee Satyug after 2030. End of WEST's domination and Rise of old Asia,Stablization of Russia and decline of Islamist fasad , all point to bright future. Current chaos is not calamatic but constructive and conducive to create common good for all human beings. We can actually give practical shape to Vasudev Kuttumbham and end the exclusive ideologies in all human spheres. Indians must dream on Epic scale, go for whole Brahamand where even failure entitle them a small Galaxy.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 05 Nov 2010 10:09
by ramana
Very good post by A_Gupta..
A_Gupta wrote:Don't get caught up in the Western India vs. China stuff. To the West it is an ideological belief that capitalism and democracy/free-market go together, and therefore, whatever the evidence might be, India must overtake China.

To me, the real challenge for India is not to overtake China as a goal. It is to improve the life of its people (in terms of the Human Development Indices, I want (unrealistically) for India to advance the equivalent of 50 places in the next 15 years). If that means also overtaking China, that's fine. If it doesn't mean overtaking China, that's fine, too. It is possible to have a huge economy that doesn't cater well to human welfare - a thousand billionaires, and hundreds of millions in poverty, there is no point in that.

The other thought is that while India and China may compete in some markets, the overall effect of two rapidly expanding economies trading with each other should be to boost the growth of both.

Lastly, the relevant metrics IMO are:
1. Is India doing better (in all relevant indices) than last year?
2. Is India doing better at removing the constraints to growth?

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 06 Nov 2010 09:10
by VinodTK
China Fears Spark Indo-US Courting
But the interesting thing about Exercise Habu Nag was not in the manoeuvres that were being executed, nor their size. It was all about the location—in the waters off Japan’s Okinawa, just as Sino-Japanese tensions were rising over a maritime territorial dispute.

Indeed, it’s fitting that the issue of China again loomed so large over the exercises, because it has been Chinese criticism that in the past couple of years has deterred India from engaging fully with the United States in this way.

Habu Nag is only one of the 35 joint exercises conducted by the Indian and the US armed forces over the past five years. But it marked a noticeable shift even from last year, when the Indian Ministry of Defence refused to grant permission for similar participation by an Indian contingent in an exercise with the United States.

India’s hesitation in 2009 partly stemmed from Beijing’s very vocal protest in 2007 after the US, Indian, Australian, Japanese and Singaporean navies staged the unprecedented Malabar Exercise in the Bay of Bengal, manoeuvres that China saw as part of an attempt at encirclement.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 06 Nov 2010 11:20
by Christopher Sidor
ramana wrote:Very good post by A_Gupta..
A_Gupta wrote:Don't get caught up in the Western India vs. China stuff. To the West it is an ideological belief that capitalism and democracy/free-market go together, and therefore, whatever the evidence might be, India must overtake China.

To me, the real challenge for India is not to overtake China as a goal. It is to improve the life of its people (in terms of the Human Development Indices, I want (unrealistically) for India to advance the equivalent of 50 places in the next 15 years). If that means also overtaking China, that's fine. If it doesn't mean overtaking China, that's fine, too. It is possible to have a huge economy that doesn't cater well to human welfare - a thousand billionaires, and hundreds of millions in poverty, there is no point in that.

The other thought is that while India and China may compete in some markets, the overall effect of two rapidly expanding economies trading with each other should be to boost the growth of both.

Lastly, the relevant metrics IMO are:
1. Is India doing better (in all relevant indices) than last year?
2. Is India doing better at removing the constraints to growth?
I agree whole hearted with this sentiment.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 07 Nov 2010 15:21
by Arihant
ramana wrote:Very good post by A_Gupta..
A_Gupta wrote:Don't get caught up in the Western India vs. China stuff. To the West it is an ideological belief that capitalism and democracy/free-market go together, and therefore, whatever the evidence might be, India must overtake China.

To me, the real challenge for India is not to overtake China as a goal. It is to improve the life of its people (in terms of the Human Development Indices, I want (unrealistically) for India to advance the equivalent of 50 places in the next 15 years). If that means also overtaking China, that's fine. If it doesn't mean overtaking China, that's fine, too. It is possible to have a huge economy that doesn't cater well to human welfare - a thousand billionaires, and hundreds of millions in poverty, there is no point in that.

The other thought is that while India and China may compete in some markets, the overall effect of two rapidly expanding economies trading with each other should be to boost the growth of both.

Lastly, the relevant metrics IMO are:
1. Is India doing better (in all relevant indices) than last year?
2. Is India doing better at removing the constraints to growth?
I appreciate these sentiments, but am worried that it under-emphasizes naked Chinese aggression against India....

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 07 Nov 2010 22:34
by ramana
How so? If you concentrate on his plan no one can do anything.

Why do you have to see a dungeon in his castle in the air?

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 08 Nov 2010 02:24
by Pulikeshi
^ Nothing wrong with A_Gupta's strategy, actually there are some benefits to looking at the issue in that way.

What is missing (will post this in a couple of threads in more details) is a simple understanding:
  1. In any successful entity three forces are at play:
    1. We are going down - need change
    2. We are doing fine with Status Quo - prevent change
    3. They are doing fine - how do we prevent them
  2. Its easy to fall prey to only doing iii - many great powers do this - over extend - and fizzle
  3. Doing only i and ii in some combination thereof (esp in democracies) seems sufficient
    but is not, if the entity is surrounded by powers that are bent on doing iii
There is a chicken and egg to 'if India is economically strong, then it can respond better'
What is more important, to borrow a cricket parlance, is to keep scoring the 1 and 2's
This means India has to quit being internal focused and start throwing barbs for others to defend.
Only then will it enjoy the freedom to pursue even more stronger economy.

More later, as always my two paisa for free!

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 19:57
by Atri
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 895366.cms
China ready for consultation with India over UNSC reform

BEIJING: Sounding positive to US President Barack Obama's endorsement of India's bid for permanent seat in the UNSC, China today said it understands New Delhi's "aspirations" to play a bigger role in the UN and is ready for consultations with it over reform of the world body.

"China values India's status in the international affairs and understands India's aspirations to play a greater role in the United Nations and is ready to keep contact and consultations with India and other member states on the issues of Security Council reform," Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesman, Hong Lei said during a media briefing.

"China supports reasonable and necessary reform of the UN Security Council and will maintain priority to giving more representation to developing countries at UNSC so that they can play bigger role in Security Council," Hong said.

He said China wants democratic and patient consultations over the issue.

"We hope all parties should continue to have democratic and patient consultations so as to reach a package of consensus on reform related issues so that negations will become a process to narrow differences, safeguard unity and realise a win-win scenario," he said.

Asked about Obama's assertion that US would also support India's membership for Nuclear Suppliers' Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime, the Australian Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement, Hong said all countries should respect their international obligation of non-proliferation.

"China believes that countries under the precondition of respecting the international obligation of non proliferation have the right to make peaceful use of nuclear energy and conduct international cooperation in this field. Meanwhile it should safeguard the integrity and effectiveness of the international non proliferation regime," he said.

"We hope that cooperation between relevant countries could contribute to regional peace stability and development."

The issue of India's permanent membership to the UNSC has always figured high in the talks between Indian and Chinese leaders.

The issue was raised during President Pratibha Patil's visit to Beijing this year as well as Foreign minister S M Krishna's visit earlier.

"China understands India's aspirations at the UN" was the standard phrase it came up with during the talks sounding cautious and ambivalent on the complex UNSC reform process.

China has also voted for India's candidature to the non-permanent seat at the UNSC.

Obama's endorsement of India's membership leaves only China to take a stand on the issue as the other four of the five permanent members — US, Russia, Britain and France — have already conveyed their support for New Delhi's elevation to the top organ of the world body.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 21:35
by ramana
I was wondering when the PRC will come to this. The reason is UNSC membership for India is another China card of the US. So we are seeing a great game of tango between the US and PRC. So by agreeing to dsicuss the UNSC seat for India they are removing another brownie point against them by the US.

I wouldn't be surprised if they push for veto status and throw out one of th eEuropean votes. For eg. they can say the UK and France can have a rotating veto seat which allows one veto vacancy. And this can be rotated between India, Germany, Japan and Brazil.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 21:38
by Lalmohan
they can work with india on some issues, e.g. copenhagen
and against india on others - having us in the tent has its advantages
one sceanario - they will push for 1 EU seat or at most 2, they might ask india and japan to share a vote...

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 21:39
by svinayak
ramana wrote:I was wondering when the PRC will come to this. The reason is UNSC membership for India is another China card of the US. So we are seeing a great game of tango between the US and PRC. So by agreeing to dsicuss the UNSC seat for India they are removing another brownie point against them by the US.

I wouldn't be surprised if they push for veto status and throw out one of th eEuropean votes. For eg. they can say the UK and France can have a rotating veto seat which allows one veto vacancy. And this can be rotated between India, Germany, Japan and Brazil.
India not have the UNSC seat is advantageous.
India can use it to swing between the powers and get their cooperation - which historically they were reluctant to

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 21:45
by ramana
I might hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back!

Obama backs Inida UNSC bid to contain China:US media
Obama backs India UNSC bid to contain China: US media
November 09, 2010 10:10:53 PM

IANS | Washington


US President Barack Obama's announcement of support for India's permanent membership in the UN Security Council (UNSC) is seen by large sections of the US media as an attempt to counter China.

The influential New York Times said that by endorsing India for a permanent seat Obama had "signalled the United States' intention to create a deeper partnership of the world's two largest democracies that would expand commercial ties and check the influence of an increasingly assertive China".

The Washington Post agreed, saying it was "a powerful endorsement of India's growing economic power and global aspirations, but one likely to anger China and Pakistan".

The Christian Science Monitor said Obama "wowed the Indian Parliament with a strong US endorsement of India's bid to become a permanent member" of the UNSC.

But "Obama's flattering justification for India to join one of the world's most exclusive and powerful clubs does not mean the booming South Asian democracy should expect to see its name engraved on a Security Council seat in New York any time soon", it said.

"Getting from consensus to actual reform is not going to be easy, for both practical and political reasons," it said, citing Michael Doyle, a former UN official now specialising in international relations at Columbia University in New York.

The Los Angeles Times described Obama's endorsement as "a dramatic show of respect to the powerful nation he hopes will play a key role in support of US interests around the world."

"The pledge is only a step in direction of new international stature for India," it said, noting "the nation likely won't attain permanent council status anytime soon, and the US is backing its addition only as part of a series of council reforms that could be years in the making".

The Wall Street Journal said: "The gesture toward India was long-sought by New Delhi and greeted warmly by the Indian Parliament during the president's speech."

It cited Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes as saying the move was meant to formalise India's rise as a world and regional power.
Acahrya, I think that is what India will do is raise the pain for these charlatans.

Endorsing QE2 by MMS was a blow at PRC. Soon we will see the other chappal.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 09 Nov 2010 22:05
by Hiten
with the European countries becoming one virtual entity, with commonality of goals and policies, under the Eurozone that will only likely get strengthened as time passes, it is natural that they should have representation in the UNSC. France and UK, as members of the European Union would therefore continue to be part of permanent member of the UNSC. This should also address Germany's aspirations of being a permanent part of the UNSC. This would free up 1 seat in the P5. So any reform in the UNSC would need to add only one more seat in order to accommodate representation in the form of Brazil

Japan's aspirations to the UNSC permanent seat, with virtually no independent policy of its own other than that which in in consonance with that of the USA, is IMO illegitimate, the size of its coffers notwithstanding. A country having more than one vote at the UNSC, that with veto power, may not be not be acceptable to countries.

Turning P5 to P6 should lead to a more equitable representation at the UNSC

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 03:55
by ramana
ramana wrote:I was wondering when the PRC will come to this. The reason is UNSC membership for India is another China card of the US. So we are seeing a great game of tango between the US and PRC. So by agreeing to dsicuss the UNSC seat for India they are removing another brownie point against them by the US.

I wouldn't be surprised if they push for veto status and throw out one of th eEuropean votes. For eg. they can say the UK and France can have a rotating veto seat which allows one veto vacancy. And this can be rotated between India, Germany, Japan and Brazil.

From the Telegraph< K.P. Nayar
Even before Obama left Indian soil, the American spin machine had begun to dole out propaganda to defend against criticism from the US allies, Pakistan, South Korea and Italy (countries which have no hope of making it to a reformed UN security council), that Obama’s endorsement of India for a permanent council seat was aimed at restraining China. In reality, the very opposite is what is most likely to happen.

In the early days of the National Democratic Alliance government, when the Chinese found out that India and the US had decided to bury the hatchet about the 1998 nuclear tests, China’s ambassador in New Delhi took the initiative and immediately called on George Fernandes even though the defence minister had branded China as India’s “Enemy No. 1”. The ambassador invited Fernandes to visit Beijing and he mellowed after the visit. Chinese diplomacy is nothing short of ultimate pragmatism and, contrary to Washington’s calculations, one outcome of Obama’s visit will certainly be a significant improvement in Sino-Indian relations. Beijing is sure to take the initiative for this, and New Delhi will not be found wanting in its response.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 09:41
by RamaY
Forgot where I posted it before...

PRC can win Indian hearts and minds by supporting Indian position on J&K including POK+NA. In response it can seek India's understanding on PRC interests in Myanmar.

There is much PRC can gain by partnering with a non-western economy like India. Since China believes in a philosophy of "peaceful raise", it should distance itself from failed state of Pakistan.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 09:45
by Dhiman
Seems like the economic war between US and China is heating up with latest $600M quantitative easing (fancy phrase for "printing money out of thin air") from US to try to force China to devalue its currency. See:

US-China economic war: US printing money to force china to devalue its currency

As a result, India and rest of the emerging markets are also seeing trouble (i.e "hot" "free" money) flow into their stock markets, with Brazil, Thailand, Malaysia, etc already instituted capital curbs (i.e tax on foreign "hot" money flowing into their stock market).

India has still not instituted capital curbs. Seems like GoI has some kind of tacit agreement with US or just selling out India to US hot money for free?

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 10:10
by svinayak
Dhiman wrote:
India has still not instituted capital curbs. Seems like GoI has some kind of tacit agreement with US or just selling out India to US hot money for free?
It is a mitra bheda strategy on china

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 10:23
by ramana
Another impact to India is the price rise of raw materials that are imported. So there is double whammy:inflation and cost of raw materials go up like oil, minerals rare earth metals etc!

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 10 Nov 2010 23:58
by krisna
China may match Obama support for India for UN seat
With US President Barack Obama declaring support for India's bid for a permanent seat, China may move beyond its stated position by announcing a more pointed support for New Delhi's place on the global high table during Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's visit next month. The Chinese premier is expected to visit India Dec 16-17, his first trip to the country in five years.
Sources disclosed that Beijing may surprise New Delhi and belie critics who think the US support was meant to counter China's ascent on the global stage.
A day after Obama endorsed India's bid for permanent seat in the UNSC, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Tuesday said in Beijing that China was ready for consultations over the issue and values India's status in the international affairs and understands India's aspirations to play a greater role in the United Nations. Beijing's willingness to discuss the issue is seen here as "a step forward" ahead of Wen's visit.
Beijing has already begun to acknowledge India's surging global status. Recently, Beijing elevated China's ambassador to India Zhang Yan to the position equivalent to that of vice foreign minister, a status it gives to only Chinese ambassadors to P5 countries.
This is a pattern. Every time the US inches closer to the US, Beijing watches it carefully and tries to assure India that it's is not against India's rise.
Britain, France and Russia have already pledged support for India's permanent seat in the global body. French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev are also set to visit India in December and are expected to reiterate their support for India's UN aspirations, making 2010 the year of India's UN diplomacy.


1) Border disputes still not settled.
2) Tibet homeland not solved.
3) what about its all weather poodle. Will it be obedient . :(( :(( Any fallout!!
4) china has been making moves to thwart Indian ascendancy.

Too good to be true. what will GOI give in return for its support for permanent member.

Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Posted: 11 Nov 2010 00:04
by RamaY
krisna wrote: Too good to be true. what will GOI give in return for its support for permanent member.
Nothing. If at all, ignoring the interest part. China is making a late-payment for Indian support for PRC's UNSC seat.