MRCA News and Discussion

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 12 Sep 2009 12:37

rakall wrote:"tester93" & "rocket2" -- How did you catch the callsigns??

Sorry, that is top secret as far as forums go. But I am sure you will have figured out by now.

Shhh.

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 12 Sep 2009 12:40

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/
Thanks sir.. for the photos... one query though, is that all the photos???

Some more on the approach, but haven't had the time to process them. The take off was so fast that just could not catch it well enough.

It is interesting to see the configuration difference between the two aircraft. Even the conformal tanks. On 3009 which looks configured in a strike config, what is the pod below the cockpit. Litening ?

Dev

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 12 Sep 2009 12:41

Kakarat wrote:
Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh
Nice pictures, thanks for sharing
Can you post those images in high resolution, especially the BSF Dhruv?

Will try and work on them over the weekend.

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 12 Sep 2009 12:47

Bala Vignesh wrote: Hi could you send the image to my email id [email protected]...

I have put it on my Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

Thanks to B-R, figured out the yellow paint is the factory paint. Is this part of any existing order.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Sep 2009 13:11

Dev A wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: Hi could you send the image to my email id [email protected]...
I have put it on my Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

Thanks to B-R, figured out the yellow paint is the factory paint. Is this part of any existing order.

Yellow primer is used on a new A/C that has just been rolled out

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 12 Sep 2009 16:10

Re: Rafael over Karachi during Kargil. There were unconfirmed reports from reliable sources about the patrols made by Rafales from the French Carrier DeGaul or Foch when IN was heading towards Karachi to put pressure on TSP to back off! Same time that IN realized their secure comms were compromised.

It was a little bit of a surprise to find them there is all. More of an irritation to the IAF or a kabab mei haddi.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Sep 2009 17:33

If comms have been compromised, then what else can be surprising? With one of the best statistical institutes in the world in cal, how can people let a comm be compromised? Well, .............

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 12 Sep 2009 17:58

AnantD wrote:Re: Rafael over Karachi during Kargil. There were unconfirmed reports from reliable sources about the patrols made by Rafales from the French Carrier DeGaul or Foch when IN was heading towards Karachi to put pressure on TSP to back off! Same time that IN realized their secure comms were compromised.

It was a little bit of a surprise to find them there is all. More of an irritation to the IAF or a kabab mei haddi.

Was the Rafale in service with French Navy, during the Kargil War ??

Air historians, Jagan, Shiv etc please help !!

Kersi

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 12 Sep 2009 18:07

Vishnu wrote:
manjgu wrote:Vishnu... you have flown in all the planes.. so whats your choice of MRCA? just curious..

My choice ?

The Tu-160 Blackjack

Oh boy. Nothing would be better than that.

I cannot imagine IAF having 126 TU 160 Blackjacks !!!
With 2 Brahmos internally and another 4 Brahmos underwing;
We rule the Indian Ocean.
We can rename Arabian Sea as Hindustan Sagar.

Forget about Indian Ocean / Arabian Sea / Bay of Bengal, The Chinese surface fleet cannot even sail safely in South China Sea !!

Kersi

This is enough to give each BR member wet dreams for the next few weeks !!!!!!!

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 12 Sep 2009 18:36

Brazil President Has Last Word on Fighter: FM

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will have the final say on who will sell billions of dollars in fighter jets to Brazil to modernize its air force, Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said September 11.

"President Lula has the last word; of course, he will take into account the position of the National Defense Committee," Amorim told international journalists in Rio.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2009 19:54

iirc thats when IN asked a certain prof in a iit to devise new cryptographic system
which was done. but our work in netcentric linking of all ships via secure data channels and radar info sharing is still very much a work-in-progress compared to USN levels.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Sep 2009 20:47

I do not see any relation between the MRCA and the Brazilian decision. The Brazilians have their own dynamics, that is no where close to the MRCA.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 Sep 2009 22:30

NRao wrote:I do not see any relation between the MRCA and the Brazilian decision. The Brazilians have their own dynamics, that is no where close to the MRCA.

why not Rao saab? The Brazilian deal will be like a stamp of approval. And the fact that the rivals there were also the same and with similar demands of ToT from Brazil will add weight to the manufacturer's claims. Would you not raise that issue here in India if you were Dassault and had won the Brazilian order?

Raye · Post by **Raye** » 12 Sep 2009 22:36

Hi guys , here's a thought

Eurofighter, this aircraft is young-- aircraft of future, lots of development left, offering us a good amount of tech!!

the only drawback is not yet good a2g cap, but it can overcome it in future version.

About price, well good things costs, but think about the indisputable quality it brings. Its the closest to the 5th gen deployed aircraft

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Sep 2009 22:46

Hers a thought

Millions of guys have been through the same thoughts

so spend some time reading the MRCA threads
and yeah - please reread the rules

Raye · Post by **Raye** » 12 Sep 2009 22:57

oh my god sun is actively thinking in n8!

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 12 Sep 2009 23:23

[quote="Kersi D

Was the Rafale in service with French Navy, during the Kargil War ??

Air historians, Jagan, Shiv etc please help !!

Kersi[/quote]

From Wikipedia:
The marine version has priority since the aircraft it is replacing are much older F-8E(FN) Crusader fighters.[12] Service deliveries began in 2001 and the type "entered service" on 4 December 2000, though the first squadron, Flotille 12, did not actually reform until 18 May 2001. The unit embarked on the Charles de Gaulle in 2002, becoming fully operational on 25 June 2004, following an extended operational evaluation that included flying limited escort and tanker missions in support of Operation Enduring Freedom over Afghanistan.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 12 Sep 2009 23:37

Kersi D wrote: Was the Rafale in service with French Navy, during the Kargil War ??

Air historians, Jagan, Shiv etc please help !!

Kersi

edit: Nevermind, Khukri replied before i did.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Sep 2009 00:44

Dmurphy wrote:why not? The Brazilian deal will be like a stamp of approval. And the fact that the rivals there were also the same and with similar demands of ToT from Brazil will add weight to the manufacturer's claims. Would you not raise that issue here in India if you were Dassault and had won the Brazilian order?

The Brazilian deal is a mish-mash. Not as clear cut as the Indian one. They have a nuclear sub deal, buying Brazilian transports and the Prez making the final decision.

One can make arguments either way, and, if I were from Dassault, yes I would, but not with a straight face.

Another point worth considering is that Brazil just might become an oil giant. Something the French have to keep in mind.

Although there might be some overlap, the dynamics are quite different.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Sep 2009 10:59

Dev A wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: Hi could you send the image to my email id [email protected]...
I have put it on my Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

Thanks to B-R, figured out the yellow paint is the factory paint. Is this part of any existing order.

I guess it should be a part of this order.. Atleast the aircraft type matches...

An order for an additional 20 strike Jaguars has also been placed. These batches are expected to allow the formation of a sixth frontline Jaguar squadron, which could have a specialised target-marking and designation role. Production of these 37 new Jaguars will continue till 2009-10 at HAL.

Jaguar Specs

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 11:11

Kersi D wrote:
Vishnu wrote: My choice ?

The Tu-160 Blackjack
Oh boy. Nothing would be better than that.

I cannot imagine IAF having 126 TU 160 Blackjacks !!!
With 2 Brahmos internally and another 4 Brahmos underwing;
We rule the Indian Ocean.
We can rename Arabian Sea as Hindustan Sagar.

Forget about Indian Ocean / Arabian Sea / Bay of Bengal, The Chinese surface fleet cannot even sail safely in South China Sea !!

Kersi

This is enough to give each BR member wet dreams for the next few weeks !!!!!!!

has to be the best jingo dream I've heard in a long time !

Re: Rafael over Karachi during Kargil. There were unconfirmed reports from reliable sources about the patrols made by Rafales from the French Carrier DeGaul or Foch when IN was heading towards Karachi to put pressure on TSP to back off! Same time that IN realized their secure comms were compromised.

It was a little bit of a surprise to find them there is all. More of an irritation to the IAF or a kabab mei haddi.

can't be kargil.

this can only be in 2002 during Op Parakram, in the aftermath of the parliament attacks.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Sep 2009 11:44

Gentlemen,
The article clearly states that the incident occurred in june 2002...

In June 2002, according to several reports,while Charles de Gaulle was in the Arabian Sea, armed Rafale fighters participated in interposition patrols near the India-Pakistan border, marking a significant point in the Rafale M's operational career and its integration with the carrier. A number of sources have speculated on the exact nature and purpose of these flights.

Source: Wiki article mentioned on Charles De Gaulle AC...

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 13 Sep 2009 15:09

Gentlemen,
The article clearly states that the incident occurred in june 2002...
Quote:
In June 2002, according to several reports,while Charles de Gaulle was in the Arabian Sea, armed Rafale fighters participated in interposition patrols near the India-Pakistan border, marking a significant point in the Rafale M's operational career and its integration with the carrier. A number of sources have speculated on the exact nature and purpose of these flights.
Source: Wiki article mentioned on Charles De Gaulle AC...

It is from wikipedia. I could have been made up and/or edited, so i don't really trust it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 17:35

b patel, it is from wikipedia but backed by sources. hence it could not have been made up at least by wiki editors.

these are the sources :
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/07/04/st ... 221200.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

and a quote :

From "En Garde!" (August 2002) in the Journal of Electronic Defense, "It is fitting for the oft-delayed development of the Rafale fighter that the aircraft literally missed the boat. It was not until February 14, after 70 days at sea, that five Rafale Ms landed on the deck of Charles de Gaulle. On March 9, two more came aboard, joining the 16 modernized Super Étendards that they are designed to eventually replace. The Ministry of Defense curbed enthusiasts by pointing out the squadron was not certified for combat and that the Etendards were performing all close-air-support and carrier-based reconnaissance missions. Yet on returning to home port July 4, the Charles de Gaulle's commander, Captain Richard Laborde, announced that on June 9 the Rafales, armed with Magic 2 air-to-air missiles, set off on a joint patrol with American fighters. He termed it, precisely, a combat mission, although the assignment was for reconnaissance over the tense India-Pakistan border."

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Sep 2009 19:02

^^^
In other words, if we were to select Rafale as our MRCA and war were to happen with TSP, the pigs will get the advantage of having the Rafale without even having to buy it!

This is nothing but chowkidaari of a chor

Should be seen as an act of offence against us.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 19:34

is that so ?

opinions vary apparently.

read the second article and the reason according to it. the author might be familiar.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 13 Sep 2009 20:38

Rahul M wrote:is that so ? opinions vary apparently.

read the second article and the reason according to it. the author might be familiar.

If this were true, pukis would be behaving very differently, why the Mumbai attack ?. How do you explain other recent reports that Pukis nuclear stock pile is being increased. I cannot imagine pukis have lost all nuckl. capabilities, even musharraf wont be such a big traitor..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 21:00

the points you raise don't invalidate the ones in the article in any way.
other feasible explanations exist.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Sep 2009 21:03

I remember reading similar reports about the rafale at the time. it is odd to think that 4-6 rafales armed only with magic 2's can actually get in the way between the IAF and PAF if they want to fight. even the USN would have to put up quite significant resources to do so, never mind risking a huge episode. simply put, neither the French fleet nor even the US fleet, nor the two together can autonomously intervene on the Indo-Pak border. it just does not make sense.

more than likely, they provided escort for recon assets that were snooping around in the arabian sea, far enough away from IAF/IN assets to monitor what was going on, especially on the pak side, in case missiles and warheads were on the move.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 21:30

snooping is the most likely explanation. they said that of the rafale even during the red flag !

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Sep 2009 23:20

IAF wants extra mode on Amirkhan AESA's

Also read the comments on shiv's article. Chorgupta's comment mentions a Stormscope LRU in addition to Weather radar mode.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 14 Sep 2009 06:55

Ajatshatru wrote:Quote from Wikipedia about F-18

In early 2008, Boeing discussed creating a Super Hornet Block III with the U.S. and Australian militaries. It would be a generation 4.75 upgrade with extra forward stealth capabilities and extended range, to be succeeded in 2024 by a sixth-generation fighter.
Is this the same 'Super Hornet Block III' being offered to India as F/A-18IN?

If India also decided to select F-18s for IN for any future carriers, could Boeing EA-18G Growler be the choice in that case for IN?

No India is being offered the Block II standard (currently with the USN) We may however have the option to choose extra thrust engines.

There is a lite version of the Growler being made called the Growler lite, this does not have the Electronic Attack capability of the American Growler. This may be exported to Australia and could become available to India in future.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Sep 2009 08:47

sounds like only a political muck up by obama-hillary association can bring this infatuation with amir-khans'.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 14 Sep 2009 09:47

johnny_m wrote:There is a lite version of the Growler being made called the Growler lite, this does not have the Electronic Attack capability of the American Growler. This may be exported to Australia and could become available to India in future.

it isn't so much a growler (grizzly now) lite as it is 'fitted for but not with' grizzly capabilities

it has all the cabling and support preinstalled for grizzly now to allow easy conversion later

12 of Australia's 24 SHs will be delivered like this

there's no reason it wouldn't be available to india if they wanted it as there's nothing classified about it

now as to the actual grizzly package, i do not know

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 14 Sep 2009 17:24

interesting...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... Downselect

The initial weapons package associated with Dassault’s Rafale bid comprises the radar and imaging infrared versions of the MBDA Mica air-to-air missile (AAM), as well as the Sagem AASM air-to-surface weapon. The Denel Dynamics A-Darter short-range AAM, a South African development in which Brazil is a partner, would also almost certainly be integrated.

Another weapon that Brazil might require to be included is the AMR-1 anti-radiation missile built by Brazilian manufacturer Mectron. Boeing’s F/A-18E/F offer included a small number of Raytheon AGM-88 HARM missiles for defense suppression.

This could answer some critics and strengthen the offer. Still thinking Brazilian deal will have no effect on the Indian one ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2009 17:55

hasnt brazil some of these missiles to pakistan ?

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/br ... 70165.html

you right, but the other way round !

BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) — Brazil's defense minister says his nation is selling 100 aircraft-borne missiles to Pakistan.

Brazilian officials approved the euro85 million ($107 million) sale of the missiles, which can be installed on jets and used to take out radar installations.

Brazilian news media say Brazil's air force negotiated the sale with Pakistan's government. The deal needed the approval of Brazil's trade ministry, which signed off on the deal on Tuesday.

The Brazilian arms maker Mectron will make the missiles.

Brazil has been trying to bolster its defense industry, which was the largest in the developing world 20 years ago. The industry has struggled since the end of the Cold War.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 18:03

Jean_M,

I still think it will have no effect. For the very one reason you have pointed out. Brazil manufactures a few things that India does not. Correct me if I am wrong, the French-Brazil "deal" includes French assistance in designing/building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilians. The Brazilian thinking could have been impacted by the cancellation of the US Army contract (AFTER it was awarded to Brazil that too). Have we REALLY heard from the Brazilian Air Force (may be they have said something that I missed). The French are buying Brazilian transport planes. The Brazilian President will make the 'final' decision. And, there could other smaller deals that we are not aware of.

In short the dynamics is TOTALLY different from that in India.

Besides, is there a one-to-one comparison of the Brazilian RFP to the MRCA "RFP"? Or at least a detailed Brazilian RFP?

With some reports in India claiming that the IAF wants a particular mode in the AESA, that by itself will disqualify the Rafale I would imagine. I think we need to clearly understand that the Indian MRCA will be flying in FAR more ACTIVE hostile environment than the Brazilian environment (correct me here). This is not a joke or a subject to taken lightly (goes all ways: US, EADS, RU, FR and Swedes).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 18:09

Jean_M wrote: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... Downselect

The defense ministry, however, quickly pointed out that the FX-2 program has not come to an end, and that it was still in talks with all three bidders: Saab offering the Gripen NG, Boeing with the F/A-18E/F and Dassault.

France has been aggressively courting Brazil, not just for the Rafale but as part of a broader strategic relationship. In addition to offering to aid the KC-390 development, it will assist in that of a nuclear submarine.

Brazil also has committed to buying 50 EC725 transport helicopters, as well as conventional submarines. In endorsing the Rafale, da Silva said that buying the French aircraft “is the consolidation of a strategic partnership.”

If the Rafale prevails, it will mark the first export order for the Dassault aircraft, which is the only Western fighter on the export market that has yet to achieve a sale. And, unlike some other deals in the works—such as in the United Arab Emirates and Libya—it would have come through competition, even if the process ends up being a somewhat tainted one.

No, it should not IMHO impact the Indian MRCA deal.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 14 Sep 2009 18:26

Ajatshatru wrote:Let me get this right....Not only is US not offering any 5th generation (F-35, F-22) aircrafts to India

The US hasn't offered the F-22 to anyone.

The US has offered the F-35 to India . . . several times . . . but India hasn't been interested.

Ajatshatru wrote: but even the slightly vintage F-18 aircraft being offered is not the ‘Super Hornet Block III’?

Again India's choice. Block III doesn't exist and thus carries more development time/risk.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 19:46

Ajatshatru wrote: Had read somewhere Boeing stating customers could buy '4.75 generation (i.e. Super Hornet Block III) with the planned extra forward stealth and extra range of Block 3 aircraft and then switch to a new, sixth generation faster than if they bought the fifth generation Joint Strike Fighter. To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars'.

wiki. Which states "In early 2008, Boeing discussed creating a Super Hornet Block III with the U.S. and Australian militaries."

So putting things into proper perspective, by 2024 Boeing hopes to come out with sixth generation aircraft and with Lockheed Martin's F-22 and F-35, India still ends up buying a 4th generation F-18 'Block II' and the delivery of F-18s Block II to India, if selected, then starting probably somewhere around 2014. And unlike some other countries buying approx. 30-35 combat aircrafts, India is buying 126 MRCA aircrafts which are expected to serve IAF for at least next 35-40 years.

And, the point is?

Boeing offering 'block II' is per the current RFP produced by the IAF. All entrants ahve said they will go beyond what is in the RFP. IF the RFP states '6th gen' then, whatever happens, happens.

After all the RFP is the foundation and not what anyone else thinks is right/better.

One more thing, has there been a written assurance by US that they would allow Boeing to offer the sixth generation aircraft to India in 2024 (and furthermore, on a priority basis) if India, right now, selects F-18?

Simple answer: no. However, India has not asked for a 'sixth generation aircraft'. Or have they?

And if IAF is buying a whopping 126 aircrafts, the least Boeing could have done was to have offered F-18 'Block III' version to India.

a) The "Block III" you seem to be fond of seems to have been broached in "early 2008". So, I would imagine that Boeing is still (did a quick google) in the plannign stage - unless the IAF wants to fund that dev
b) What does the RFP say? Since these vendors stated they would beat the RFP, perhaps some "Block III" techs are included in the offer to India. Clearly LM claims that some F-22/35 techs are included in the proposed F-16IN Super Viper.

Whatever, RFP rules.