2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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Sanku
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: But in the earlier post you asked for a sustained coal related disaster? I provided one. It is continuing to this day but no compensation is being paid to these poor people.
Comprehension problems are severe I see, let me quote what I said

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1064200
If there are any issues of a coal plant posing a sustained risk due to the current disaster in Japan, please post the link otherwise stop derailing the thread.
Jharia is in Japan? Perhaps it may be because
Well 'relevance' is a matter of perspective. .
Yes apparently like humpty dumpty people can make words mean what they want. No more no less.

English is also a matter of perspective.

So is death.

============

I would personally be very ashamed of myself if so many of my half truths and comprehension issues were exposed publicly but then I guess it is also a matter of perspective.
GuruPrabhu
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Sanku wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:Let us say that Rs 4 lakhs is approximately $ 10k. So, a liability insurance of $400M says that 400M/10K = 40,000 people will be affected by a nuke accident. Even in this Japanese FUBAR incident, the number of dead is ZERO. Long ways to go before we hit 40k. So, whose madarsa math is being followed?
Madarassa math is your specialty; ignorance coupled with blatant foul mouthed hate to India and Indians which you proudly wear on your sleeve.
More unsubstantiated attacks. Are all Babus equally stupid?

Mods, what should I do with this individual who just attacks personally all the time? Does he have some special privilege? Where does he get this thing about "anti-India yada yada".

It is just a cheap babu trick to paint any opponent as "anti-India" when out of arguments. Please, I implore the Mods to rein in this monster.

It is not fair to me to control myself while this joker runs loose. I was enjoying my debate with others, but this idiot butted in enough to ensure that I reply to him. And, now, some Mod will say that I am "warned". I am preserving this thread so the evidence is there about how the escalation happened.

Regards.
Last edited by GuruPrabhu on 05 Apr 2011 11:50, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:

No payment is made to people who are not directly affected by the nuclear plant.
Ah but TEPCO is paying 'condolence money' to the local govt to aid people who have had to temporarily vacate houses or have been otherwise impacted by the radiation such as loss of livelihood. Does railway pay the daily wage workers for their loss of livelihood?
Do daily wage workers vacate because of direct acts of Indian railways? Yes in that case they do.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Removal of 60,000 tons of radioactive water eyed at Fukushima plant

A total of 60,000 tons of radioactive water is believed to be flooding the basement of reactor buildings and underground trenches connected to them at the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant, the industry minister said Tuesday, adding its operator will later remove the liquid obstructing recovery work.

Tokyo Electric Power Co., which runs the Fukushima Daiichi power station, began dumping low-level radioactive water Monday as an emergency step to secure room for the storage of more highly contaminated water. The utility known as TEPCO aims to dispose of a total of 11,500 tons of low-level tainted water by this weekend.

By noon Tuesday, an estimated 3,430 tons of such low radioactive water had been discharged into the Pacific Ocean from the plant on the coast, TEPCO said.

Industry minister Banri Kaieda maintained that contamination of the sea to be caused by the disposal will pose no major health risk, but apologized for raising concerns among the public, especially fishermen.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the 60,000 tons of water -- 20,000 tons each from the Nos. 1-3 reactor buildings and trenches -- will be stored in tanks at the units, a facility for nuclear waste disposal at the site, an artificial floating island called a ''megafloat,'' U.S. Navy barges and provisional tanks.

The complex for nuclear waste disposal can accommodate 30,000 tons of such water but it will take a while before it can store the liquid because TEPCO will try to ensure that radioactive water will not be leaked from the facility by using coating agents, the agency said.

The provisional tanks will be shipped to the Fukushima plant by the end of this month, it added.

Meanwhile, TEPCO began work Tuesday afternoon to stop the leakage into the sea of highly radioactive water believed to be originating from the No. 2 reactor's core, where fuel rods have partially melted.

The water containing radioactive iodine-131 more than 10,000 times the legal concentration limit has been leaking from a cracked seaside pit connected to the No. 2 reactor turbine building.

In a new finding, TEPCO said Tuesday a seawater sample taken Saturday near the No. 2 reactor's water intake showed the iodine-131 concentration at 7.5 million times the maximum allowable level under law.

To halt the radioactive water flow, the operator will inject ''water glass'' or sodium silicate into graveled areas beneath the pit's bottom, where radioactive water is believed to be seeping through, according to the agency.

The utility has tried to block the radioactive water leakage with concrete and water-absorbing polymeric materials, but its efforts have so far been unsuccessful.

TEPCO has also poured in white bath agents to trace the route of the leakage but colored water did not emerge from the seaside pit, leaving the path of contamination unknown.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Sanku wrote:quote="GuruPrabhu">>
An Indian citizen should only hope to die under a nuke disaster than by the GOI owned railways. The nuke disaster payment is pegged to international rates and what not amounting to insurance levels of $400 M or $1B or whatever the latest Babu-figure is.


Despite your naked hate for all things Indian, and supremacy of all things international (US) the above is yet another statement which is pulled out of your musharraf.

Also goes to show your naked cavalier attitude towards Indian lives.
yes, saar, Sanku saar, I have been pointing out to Mods that you have nothing but CHEAP personal attacks. You are shallow and unworthy of discussion in a civilized forum. Yet, my attempts to get you to dissuade from chavanni chaap comments have not registered in your puerile brain.

A sad human being such as yourself with "remote vestigial intelligence" should by now have caught on that your commentary is about as useful as the seventh wheel in a car.

Please play with yourself in a corner and leave this discussion to grown-ups. BYE.
I am aware of your attempts to provoke me into saying something stupid, unfortunately thanks to BRF I can counter the such falsehoods without falling into an obvious trap. Sorry.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

7.5 mil. times legal limit of iodine in sea


The utility firm said samples of water taken near the water intake of the No. 2 reactor at 11:50 AM Saturday contained 300,000 becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter, or 7.5 million times the legal limit.
TEPCO said the figure had dropped to 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times the legal limit, in samples taken at 9:00 AM Monday.

Monday's sample also contained 1.1 million times the legal limit of cesium 137, which has a half life of 30 years.

On March 27th, 13-million becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter of water were detected in the turbine building of the No. 2 reactor. On Wednesday, water was found accumulated in a tunnel near the turbine building and the radiation level on the surface was measured at more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
If there are any issues of a coal plant posing a sustained risk due to the current disaster in Japan, please post the link otherwise stop derailing the thread.
Jharia is in Japan? Perhaps it may be because
Well 'relevance' is a matter of perspective. .
Yes apparently like humpty dumpty people can make words mean what they want. No more no less.

English is also a matter of perspective.

So is death.

============

I would personally be very ashamed of myself if so many of my half truths and comprehension issues were exposed publicly but then I guess it is also a matter of perspective.
Well look at it this way - you posted the impact of Fukishima has had on new nuke plants in Germany. If that was relevant why isn't pointing out other ecological disasters which the coal mafia tries to cover up?

Ah Sanku ji - I'm not sure you can't be ashamed. You can self cite :)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Well look at it this way - you posted the impact of Fukishima has had on new nuke plants in Germany. If that was relevant why isn't pointing out other ecological disasters which the coal mafia tries to cover up?
Yes Impact of Japanese disaster outside Japan. Certainly meaningful for this thread.

For other issues not related to fallout of Japan there are other threads no?

Now kindly we please get the discussion back to the relevant issues and not talk about Jharia, BP et al? There are other threads for that.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/24 ... almia-1-2/

Glowing endorsement

Japan has pushed nuclear energy hard — at the expense of safety

To get there, Japan has poured lavish subsidies into nuclear, starting with research. Around 65 percent of Japan’s energy research budget goes toward nuclear — the highest of any country — with the industry spending $250 million, well below 10 percent of what the government spends. Even France, which gets 80 percent of its energy from nuclear, spends three-and-half times less than Japan.


Beyond research, the government offers the nuclear energy industry loans that are a full percentage point below commercial levels. And for four decades, Japan has taxed the utility bills of electricity consumers, distributing the proceeds to communities willing to house nuclear plants. In essence, nuclear’s competitors are being forced to act against their own interest to bribe local communities to accept a risk against the communities' interest.

But the mother of all subsidies is the liability cap that nuclear enjoys. In the event of an accident, the industry is on the hook for only $1.2 billion in damages, with the government covering everything beyond that. Japan’s cap is generous even by American standards, which require the industry to cover $12.6 billion before Uncle Sam kicks in. (Nuclear proponents in the U.S. argue that this liability cap is necessary given our insane tort awards. However, the fact that even countries without such awards have to offer a liability cap suggests that nuclear technology is not yet considered safe enough to be viable.)
In light of the above India should immediately upgrade its Liability amount.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/24 ... almia-1-2/

In light of the above India should immediately upgrade its Liability amount.
er..why? we can argue US / India have pushed (subsidised) the coal industry hard at the expense of safety and long-term damage to environment. Why to penalise only nukes?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/24 ... almia-1-2/

In light of the above India should immediately upgrade its Liability amount.
er..why? we can argue US / India have pushed (subsidised) the coal industry hard at the expense of safety and long-term damage to environment. Why to penalise only nukes?
Please make that argument in any thread which suits the purpose. I never asked you not to.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
Please make that argument in any thread which suits the purpose. I never asked you not to.
Alas this is not a anti nuke propaganda thread. This is a thread for learning. When you make a statement that India should raise its liability cap (a short step from calling MMS a sell out for not doing so), we would be intersted in learning why you have so much munificence towards the coal / fossil fuel industry :)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by somnath »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/24 ... almia-1-2/

In light of the above India should immediately upgrade its Liability amount.
er..why? we can argue US / India have pushed (subsidised) the coal industry hard at the expense of safety and long-term damage to environment. Why to penalise only nukes?
Arnab-ji, dont worry, relax - nothing of that sort is even plausible..Why? Because the Jap liability cap being spoken about is operator liability...Guess who is the sole monopoly operator in India? GOI...Why should GOI increase liability caps on itself? Given that should something happen it will anyway have to hold the can...Facts get lost in the din of rhetoric..
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Fukushima measuring radiation at all schools

On Monday, the government announced that radiation of more than 10 millisieverts had been detected at one location in Namie Town, some 30 kilometers northwest of the plant. The figure is what a person would be exposed to if they stayed outdoors for 11 consecutive days at the location. It is 10 times higher than the 1 millisievert-per-year long-term reference level for humans as recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.
The prefectural government is measuring from Tuesday more than 1,400 institutions in the prefecture outside the 20-kilometer evacuation zone.
I see they also talk about annual doses as recommended by ICRP( although it could vary as per ECRR model). But then it is legal limit and not the scientist's ooops teacher's limit.This is what will be talked about when it reaches court.

Those who talk about GHG ( esp from USA) should know that they have not been able to convince unkil about it and ratify Kyoto protocol which is set to expire in 2012, why?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Please make that argument in any thread which suits the purpose. I never asked you not to.
Alas this is not a anti nuke propaganda thread. This is a thread for learning. When you make a statement that India should raise its liability cap (a short step from calling MMS a sell out for not doing so), we would be intersted in learning why you have so much munificence towards the coal / fossil fuel industry :)
I have also not talked about the effect of mining on mars due to the Tusnami and dont intend to do so only because you find the exploration of issues around the events in Japan and their impact elsewhere.

Terribly sorry I intend to stick to the topic.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

a tennessee backwoods man once told me (or possibly told someone who wrote it and I subsequently read it) that: when you mud wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud and pakistaniat, but the pig is happy

mind you, if he really was a tennessee backwoods man then he is likely to be covered in coal mining slurry as well
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

Lalmohan wrote:a tennessee backwoods man once told me (or possibly told someone who wrote it and I subsequently read it) that: when you mud wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud and pakistaniat, but the pig is happy

mind you, if he really was a tennessee backwoods man then he is likely to be covered in coal mining slurry as well
Boss very apt analogy.

But I find it very interesting to look at the kind people Sanku likes to quote. Of course this assumes he is discerning in his choices and just doesn't post the first link he gets. The last one was some maverick geologist who said elsewhere that the nuclear accident was a deliberate nuclear attack on America's food supply. It's there on this thread, I've posted the relevant links.

Regarding the last link which he quoted to say that the liability cap should be raised was written by a pretty lady (she is good looking, ask Gogal cacha, as good as the Lal Chicks) named Shikha Dalmia.

I did a bit prodding around and I came across a very interesting link. In an article titled The heart of the problem James Hrynyshyn quotes the same article and has added his thoughts.

Some excerpts:
No one is more surprised than I to see something worthwhile reading in The Daily, Rupert Murdoch's iPad magazine. You might even be forgiven for suspecting an April Fool.
This is priceless. However, it may be lost on Sanku bhai.
Dalmia's indictment goes far beyond the nuclear industry, though. Intended or not, it strikes at the heart of the economic philosophy that dominates pretty much the entire planet To wit:

The liability cap effectively privatizes the profits of nuclear and socializes the risk.
Liability caps are just one of many tools that serve to privatize profits and shift risk onto the public. Without the protection afforded the industry by governments everywhere, it is doubtful a single private-sector nuclear reactor would be splitting atoms anywhere. But the nuclear industry is nothing special.
Only in the past few years have a few jurisdictions cottoned on to the reality that the combustion of fossil fuels does exactly the same thing. The owners of coal-, gas- and oil-fired power plants reaps the profits, but the rest of the planet must deal with the consequences and risks -- the millions of people that end up in hospital and graves from the pollution and myriad other species that suffer untold fates from habitat destruction and toxification. Putting a price on carbon emissions is a small step in the right direction, one that has yet to be taken at the federal level in North America or China, which collectively are responsible for half of world's total emissions.
Now we have folks here arguing that fossil fuel is cheaper because even if there's an accident it would be nothing like a nuclear accident. That's true to a certain extent but how about what happens when there's no accident in fossil fuel run power plants?. What about the millions of people who end up in hospital as the quote above says?

So taking this line of reasoning further, damned if we do damned if we don't. We suffer the consequences if there's a nuclear accident (btw the numbers of deaths from nuclear is far less). And we suffer if there's no accident in fossil fuel plants.
We have made no serious efforts at reform to prevent another financial crisis. What are the chances of making substantial reforms to the nuclear industry? Or the fossil-fuel industry? The fact is, if we did redistribute profit and risk everywhere it is out of whack, the face of capitalism would be unrecognizable. That face wouldn't allow the concentration of capital in so few hands because they wouldn't have the strength to carry the risk.
And here's the most interesting para:
This is why so many people deny the facts of climatology and the need to change our ways. Not because the science is uncertain. (Uncertainty is the hallmark of good science) Not because climatologists are all in on some New World Order socialist conspiracy. (Scientists prosper by undermining their colleague's theories, not participating in group-think. And besides, how do you explain Republican climatolgists?) Not because Al Gore is a hypocrite (What would that have to do with anything?) Not because the world was warmer 1000 years ago. (It wasn't). Not because the sun is to blame. (It isn't). Because reversing the inexorable rise in global average temperatures will require a new way of organizing our economies, one that scares the captains of industry far more than the spectre of rising sea levels, desertification, and ocean acidification scare the rest of us.
Bottomline folks, its not a zero sum game. Less nuclear does not equal to better health, less harm. As I've written before, in terms of analogy, nuclear accidents are like plane crashes - gruesome and deadly. But in terms of probability of being involved in an accident it's probably safer to travel by plane from say Mumbai to New Delhi than it is to travel by road.

We can't ignore nuclear power and the IMO the biggest takeaway from this tragic accident is not nuclear is a NO, NO but rather it is possible and imperative to design as many safety features as possible in future nuclear plants that we build. By we of course I mean India.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Radioactivity reaches Fish.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... re_twitter

Radioactive Materials Found in Fish Near Stricken Japan Nuclear Plant

In one sample collected April 1, a local fishery cooperative detected 4,080 becquerels per kilogram of radioactive iodine. While Japan hadn't set a limit for acceptable iodine levels in seafood, on Tuesday, the government set the limit at 2,000 becquerels per kilogram, the same as for vegetables.

In another sample collected Monday, 526 becquerels per kilogram of cesium was detected in fish, exceeding the 500-becquerel limit.

The findings were the first clear indication of radioactive contamination in fish following leakage of radioactive water from Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, which was battered by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Reading of a tennessee backwoods man one is reminded of "it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied;..........
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

.....well its also 'better to live one day as a tiger than a thousand as a sheep', and 'better to have loved and lost than never loved at all'
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Lalmohan wrote:.....well its also 'better to live one day as a tiger than a thousand as a sheep', and 'better to have loved and lost than never loved at all'
well said lalmohan. No doubt abt that.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/MD05Dh01.html

Fukushima is indeed a setback to Nuclear Industry as a whole.It has forced many serious thinkers to consider various issues plaguing the industry just when it was supposed to be coming out of the aftermath of TML and Cher.

Despite this resentment towards nuclear technology, Japan was forced to expand nuclear power generation after the two oil shocks in the 1970s, which exposed Japan's heavy reliance on the Middle East for energy resources.

Petroleum provided about 60% of the whole nation's electricity in 1970, but now it only provides about 10%. Japan imports 99% of its oil from abroad. Although Japan aimed to reduce the dependency rate on petroleum from the Middle East after the oil shocks, it still imports nearly 90% of oil from the Middle East.

The Fukushima plant will be decommissioned and no local government or community is likely to accept the building of a new nuclear power plant in their area now.

The Fukushima incident will be a severe setback for Japan's nuclear fuel cycle, Endo said. The nuclear fuel cycle starts with the mining of uranium and ends with the disposal of nuclear waste. With the reprocessing of used fuel, the stages form a true cycle. Japan has been implemented this program since 1956, according to Endo.

However, the nation has been unable to locate a site for a second nuclear reprocessing plant after the Rokkasho Reprocessing Plant of Aomori Prefecture, which managed to escape damage from the March 11 earthquake.
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sanku wrote:Whats this immense ******** about getting in roadway deaths, fishing deaths yada yada yada in the discussion? Clearly it is an attempt to destroy serious discussion by bringing up irrelevant issues taken out of context?
Sanku,

This seems to be SOP for the entire Nuclear industry. It is one of the bullet points that they all have internalized.

It is repeatedly brought up by a couple of my relations who work in Kalpakkam. Several more of my relatives have now joined Koodankulam and they always resort to this argument when ever the safety issue is brought up. It is a defensive mentality. They are unable to reassure even me, their close relative, and they know it. And I actually support nuclear technology and say that we need its power.

A major accident in Koodankulam would make the entire southern tip of India uninhabitable. No other technology has that potential. There have been many minor accidents even at Kalpakkam, many not even reported to the press or an independent agency. As a legacy of the nuclear program secrecy, there is no hard requirement for our atomic agency to reveal all accidents, including self described minor ones, to the general public. There have been numerous minor accidents at Kalpakkam that the agency has brushed off as self described 'not serious'.

I'm more certain than ever now that a truly major accident affecting large populations is almost inevitable. We seem to be having a major accident every 10 year or so. I just hope it is not India.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

theo-ji
is it not the case that all industries including nuclear have health and safety issues and all of them have to work hard to minimise them and eliminate them entirely - if it were possible. collectively, we are afraid of nuclear power but why are we not afraid of other forms of power or industries that also kill and maim? i am all for maximising safeguards and control processes in nuclear, but i think it is important to do so rationally. perhaps there is too much secrecy in nuclear, possibly because of its military origins, but no reason per se to shy away from it. on the contrary - lets open up the hood, take a better look and put in more stringent controls and safer technologies.

added later - a timely article about the airline industry's approach to crash investigation (or not as the case may be)

How air crash investigations may be thrown off course
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Lalmohan wrote:...collectively, we are afraid of nuclear power but why are we not afraid of other forms of power or industries that also kill and maim?
I think this is the key question. The standards the public wants the industry to operate at is 0% radioactive release. This is what the industry claims as well. Despite all its attempts the industry is physically unable to operate at this level. The public instinctively fears that there is lack of complete control. And we all fear things we can not control. And the public's instinct is right in that once the uranium reaction is started it essentially goes on for ever from our perspective. Who is going to guarantee we can maintain control forever.

And I think there are many other industries people fear. Flying for one, or GMO agriculture, or Chemical plants, etc. In the US for instance there has not been a new oil refinery for 30 years+. You don't hear them bring up this argument. You might call this irrationality, I call it the human condition. There are many many things we are irrational about. In fact your life and my life is filled with irrationality about what we will and will not do. This is not a battle the industry can win.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Theoji - Any word/link for those dead man walking ( who got 3-4 sieverts)?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

I generally do not use large fonts but this personal attack needs to be noticed.

Sanku responds and shows his calss when he responds to another brf member
Sanku wrote: Madarassa math is your specialty; ignorance coupled with blatant foul mouthed hate to India and Indians which you proudly wear on your sleeve.
or
Sanku wrote: So you dont know but dont mind pulling yet another "fact" out of your Musharraff.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

Theo_Fidel wrote:In fact your life and my life is filled with irrationality about what we will and will not do. This is not a battle the industry can win.
True . It is something like faith in GOD ,which by any definition is irrational. But people do get past their primal irrationality wrt to GOD and do act rationally in most situations. But think of some tense situations when things are out of control or you are dealing with randomness /stochasticity, the primal fear returns GOD and the attendant irrationality comes with a massive bang.

Consider the recent cricket matches. In the India-Pak match in Mohali, there was a Pak Motharma , obviously pious and in deep frenzied prayer with the rosary bead moving very fast in her fingers, calling out to her Allah to save Pakistan's Musharraf when it was getting roasted. That was shown live on TV.

Obviously whether she prayed or not would have not made a whit of difference whatsoever . The very act of praying to some "GOD" who in all probability does not exist is irrational, but she does pray to feel better and soothe herself. Who is anyone to nay say that.

So , let our Eugene Dumsdays have their bull horn and blow them. It is irrational and not going to make a whit of difference. If it makes them feel better, why not. But at the end of the day, decisions are going to be made on rationality and facts and data. Anything else is madness Eugene Dumsdays will be selling snake oil by the barrels.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Fear is irrational. None of the statisticians who venture to say the radiation levels are safe, because as evidenced by zero deaths and as evidenced by dosimeter readings, will be hard pressed to extend their rationality to buy say spinach, lettuce etc., which are contaminated, but boy! are well below dosimeter red level readings by orders of magnitude. Why? Because they have choice to buy other non contaminated foods. But they would altogether avoid spinach, fish if push comes to shove.

Why that kind of logic is not extended to choice of nuclear fuel is beyond me. Probably, hyprocrisy would rule when application of statistics come for self versus for general arguments. Else, all the rationalists and risk scientists who strictly feel the need to educate public, in Japan, would have lined up to buy all the contaminated food (from fukushima region) possibly sold at discount prices, which are in greenest range of dosimeter readings.

Meanwhile India bans import of food from Japan. Should rationally India be not trying to educate public, that food is safe well below the dosimeter red levels?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 90812.html
The ban can also be extended "till such time as credible information is available that the radiation hazard has subsided to acceptable limits," the statement added.

India had earlier intensified screening of all purchased items from Japan.
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

vina wrote:So , let our Eugene Dumsdays have their bull horn and blow them. It is irrational and not going to make a whit of difference. If it makes them feel better, why not. But at the end of the day, decisions are going to be made on rationality and facts and data. Anything else is madness Eugene Dumsdays will be selling snake oil by the barrels.
I don't know Vina,

There is a really deep unease in these parts about Kudankulam after Japan. The 'experts' have done nothing to come out and deal with peoples fears, what is called irrationality. There is a very very strong movement that is now starting up that is almost certain to prevent the proposed expansion of Kudankulam by 6000MW. This is power that all the Southern states were counting on. There will be no pro-nuclear lobby in these parts, though I've been staunchly pro-nuclear before.

One thing I would note is that the Airline industry deals with this irrationality by ritualizing it. There is baggage checks and boarding checks and personal inspections. You get on, there is a safety manual for you. Peoplesare told where the exits are, which is meaningless in most fatal crashes. There are instructions on oxygen masks, how to buckle up, 'duck & cover', etc. In the vast majority of serious crashes none of these things matter. Yet for some reason this ritual reassures people. Like they have a small chance of avoiding fate.

This is something the nuclear industry could learn from, instead of the constant obfuscation, defensive deflections and haughtier than thou presentations.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:One gets the feeling that the Japanese thought that if a 9.0 struck it would pretty much end everything. So why bother worrying about the nuclear stuff.
There is probably much truth in that statement. However, Saar, I am awaiting your response to your statement about "dead men walking". Are you to simply drop that bomb and walk away innocently? Or, will we get to read some justification to that incendiary remark?
+1. Theo-Ji - ?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

AmberG, Has the nature of the radiation leaking been mentioned? In other words is it mostly iodine or other metal isotopes? If its mostly low half life stuff then the crisis will decay over time?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

mostly iodine and caesium
Pu was found near to one reactor
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Bade »

Theo_Fidel wrote:There is a really deep unease in these parts about Kudankulam after Japan. The 'experts' have done nothing to come out and deal with peoples fears, what is called irrationality. There is a very very strong movement that is now starting up that is almost certain to prevent the proposed expansion of Kudankulam by 6000MW. This is power that all the Southern states were counting on. There will be no pro-nuclear lobby in these parts, though I've been staunchly pro-nuclear before.
If the above sentiments hold true then I see an opportunity here, to re-locate Kudankulam to the southern district of Trivandrum or perhaps somewhere more north like Kasargod with lower population density. :)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Lalmohan wrote:mostly iodine and caesium
Pu was found near to one reactor
Yes, From what I know, Sea food has lot of iodine which goes in your body. Good news - short half life - 8 days)
bad news - causes cancer, KI tablets may prevent thyroid cancer but not others as well so avoid sea food.

Cs is less in seafood. Also Cs (like K, and Na) goes in and out of body. Things to avoid are mushrooms, spinach etc . It has long half life (30 years) but biological half life (the time it remains in body) is shorter.

Sr is worse as it goes in the bone (Like Ca) and then remains there. (Half life, again 30 years of so).

Thankfully these will be watched very carefully.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Food
Some 134 samples of various foods from twelve prefectures around Japan have been taken in the last three days. They included a range of fruit, vegetables and milk as well as beef and pork. All but one showed either no detection of iodine-131 or caesium-137 or levels within limits. The single affected food was shiitake mushrooms from Fukushima prefecture
From:http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_La ... 04111.html
2. Radiation monitoring

On 3rd April, deposition of both iodine-131 and cesium-137 was detected in 7 prefectures. The values for iodine-131 ranged from 2.4 to 82, for cesium-137 from 5.2 to 57 becquerel per square metre. On 4th April, deposition of iodine-131 was detected in 7 prefectures ranging from 3.1 to 75 becquerel per square metre. Deposition of cesium-137 in 6 prefectures ranging from 7.4 to 46 becquerel per square metre. Reported gamma dose rates in the 46 prefectures showed no significant changes compared to yesterday.

As of 3rd April, iodine-131 and cesium-134/137 was detectable in 8 and 5 prefectures respectively. All values were well below levels that would trigger recommendations for restrictions of drinking water. As of 3rd April, restrictions for infants related to I-131 (100 Bq/l) are in place in only one village of the Fukushima prefecture. The restriction is still in place as a precautionary measure.

Currently, the IAEA monitoring team is working in the Fukushima region. On 5th April, measurements were made at 7 locations at distances of 16 to 41 km, South and South West to the Fukushima nuclear power plant. The dose rates ranged from 0.3 to 31 microsievert per hour. At the same locations, results of beta-gamma contamination measurements ranged from 0.01 to 3.2 megabecquerel per square metre. The highest dose rates and beta gamma contaminations were measured at the location closest to the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant.
Seawater is collected daily close to the discharge areas of Units 1 - 4 and of Units 5 and 6 at the Dai-ichi NPP. The data show a decreasing trend from 1 to 3 April from about 66 kBq/l to 24 kBq/l for I-131 and 21 kBq/l to 10 kBq/l for both Cs-134 and Cs-137 at Units 1-4. The concentrations at Units 5 and 6 also showed a decreasing trend until 3 April. These values were measured before the discharge of low level contaminated water authorised by the Japanese Government on the 4th April.

New data were provided for the off-shore survey on 8 sampling points about 30 km east of the NPPs. Concentrations are between 5 and 18 Bq/l for I-131 and between roughly 1 and 11 Bq/l for Cs-137. For the new coverage of the coastal transect in the south, about 35 km south of Fukushima Daiini, the highest concentrations were detected at the sampling point closest to the coast in the south with about 38 Bq/l for I-131 and 4.5 Bq/l for Cs-137. The concentrations at all sampling points have decreased over time.
From: http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsu ... ate01.html


For reference: Co-60 found in Delhi had radioactivity about 40 TBq (40,000,000,000,000 becquerel/gm)
while a banana has about 100 bq/Kg of K40.
Demo Sources (Like C-60, we use in a lab or class for demo purpose) have activity about 50,000 bq
Last edited by Amber G. on 06 Apr 2011 03:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

A major accident in Koodankulam would make the entire southern tip of India uninhabitable.
How so? Care to explain? Also, we're still waiting on how many people got that 3-4 Sv dosage?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Can a little math help? some?
Here is a headline:

7.5 mil. times legal limit of iodine in sea
The operator of the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says 7.5 million times the legal limit of radioactive iodine 131 has been detected from samples of seawater near the plant.
With background that radioactive water discharged to sea, this looks serious.
Specially if the Iodine is found in sea, and if indeed 7.5 million times legal limit. The quotes inside the story looks even more ominous.
... 11:50 AM Saturday contained 300,000 becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter
Now this, 300,000 bq/cm^3 is same as 300,000,000 bq/l a very high amount and this is in the SEA...
(Will fish even survive in that high radioactive water? :eek: ).. if you even ate a 100 gram of the this sushi .. you will glow ityadi...)

This is stranger, since, IAEA site, mentions:
...highest concentrations were detected at the sampling point closest to the coast in the south with about 38 Bq/l ...
Now both can't be true? 38 Bq/l or 300,000,000 bq/l ? Can it?

Since Chaanakya already posted the above story, I will let him take a stab at it. See if he can tell us who is right, who is wrong... what could be the reason for this discrepency ....I will post what I think later after he gets his chance.

I will also like to see his estimate, how many mSV dose, one will get, if one eats 100 gm fish from 300,000,000 bq/l place?
Last edited by Amber G. on 06 Apr 2011 05:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

TheoJi -Is it possible that basis of 3-4mSV was few news items (eg in NY Times) based of IAEA briefing on 27 March 2011
The Japanese authorities have stated that during medical examinations carried out at the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in the Chiba Prefecture, the level of local exposure to the workers' legs was estimated to be between 2 and 6 sieverts.

While the patients did not require medical treatment, doctors decided to keep them in hospital and monitor their progress over coming days.
Since you have not answered multiple queries, I am just curious if the above was the basis of your report.

(in case you (or others) wondering, I standby my response to Lalmohan as well as previous posts regarding 1000mSV does etc ...and if anyone reads it will find it consistent with the doctors who thought they do not require medical treatment. (Do you still think those were "dead-men-walking"? Just curious)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/04/ ... ml?_r=1&hp
Japan Stops Leaks From Nuclear Plant By REUTERS
Published: April 5, 2011 at 7:24 PM ET

TOKYO (Reuters) - Engineers have stopped highly radioactive water leaking into the sea from a crippled Japanese nuclear power plant, the facility's operator said on Wednesday, a breakthrough in the battle to contain the worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl.

However, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) still needs to pump contaminated water into the sea because of a lack of storage space at the facility.
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