India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by chaanakya »

GeorgeWelch wrote: Theoretically speaking, if the SH was disqualified because it didn't meet some technical requirement and Boeing can show that the IAF had a misunderstanding and it does indeed meet that requirement, why shouldn't it be put back in the competition?
Trial phase is over and Boeing should have shown when there was a briefing given to all contenders on the performance appraisal of their planes. Now they can not come back and say that this is incorrect. That's against the open bidding rules.

Technicals are done with as of now. No point in beating the track of the snake when it has passed.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

chaanakya wrote:Surely , there is one rule: that is what buyers want
And what the buyer wants should be clearly formulated in the rules of the competition.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Although I do find it interesting that you can categorically state that there is absolutely no way they could find something wrong. I take it that you have thoroughly reviews the RFP, Boeing's bid, the IAF's debrief, and the correspondence between the two to ensure that there were zero mistakes in the process.
It is very interesting, isn't it? I wonder myself at times! :rotfl:
GeorgeWelch wrote:And what the buyer wants should be clearly formulated in the rules of the competition.
I thought you guys read the rules quite carefully, otherwise you would not have offered us a downgraded version of the APG-79 AESA....which you have consistently stated met the MMRCA requirements. You guys knew what we wanted from day one.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:Now if you believe that we did not follow your rules
I didn't say that. I have no idea.

I merely suggested it's a possibility, even if it was unintentional.
Rakesh wrote:you have a choice, you can either not take part in further competitions or just accept the reality that you lost fair & square and try again.
Again you contradict yourself, IF you did not follow your own rules, then obviously we did not lose fair & square.
Rakesh wrote::D Then go find it. Be my guest.
That's Boeing's job.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by chaanakya »

GeorgeWelch wrote: However such massive competitions are inherently complex and it's very easy for a mistake to be made somewhere.

Maybe they'll find something, maybe they won't, we'll just have to wait and see.
Europeans want Boeing to do something stupid , like you suggest. The orders for 68 (jacked up from 28) would vanish in thin air and it will be Airbus all the way. Mark my words. Now only you have started hearing rumblings of Boeing order scam by Patel. It will get sinister in proportion.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:I thought you guys read the rules quite carefully, otherwise you would not have offered us a downgraded version of the APG-79 AESA....which you have consistently stated met the MMRCA requirements. You guys knew what we wanted from day one.
Again you make no sense. If it did indeed meet the requirements, then what's the problem?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:I didn't say that. I have no idea.

I merely suggested it's a possibility, even if it was unintentional.
You guys are looking for some desperate loop hole to get back in.

My goodness, see how 126 aircraft have got you all hot & bothered.
GeorgeWelch wrote:Again you contradict yourself, IF you did not follow your own rules, then obviously we did not lose fair & square.
GeorgeWelch wrote:Again you make no sense. If it did indeed meet the requirements, then what's the problem?
I have to quote George Welch, "I have no idea." :)
Rakesh wrote:That's Boeing's job.
Why did I think that was your job? :mrgreen:
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

George Welch: Your own ambassador had doubts on HAL's ability to do anything. He claimed we were a good 20 - 30 years behind your aviation companies. If what he said is true, do you really want Boeing to partner with HAL when we are that backward? Let us build the inferior Rafale or Eurofighter first.

http://www.livemint.com/2011/04/2821143 ... l?atype=tp
“The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect,” Roemer is reported to have said, giving a critical assessment of the Indian company’s capabilities following a February 2010 visit to one of its facilities, according to WikiLeaks cables cited by media reports. Roemer reportedly wrote that India’s aviation industry was “two to three decades behind the US and other Western nations.”
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:I didn't say that. I have no idea.

I merely suggested it's a possibility, even if it was unintentional.
You guys are looking for some desperate loop hole to get back in.

My goodness, see how 126 aircraft have got you all hot & bothered.
Boeing would be irresponsible to their shareholders if they didn't at least look for glaring flaws in the process.

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:Again you contradict yourself, IF you did not follow your own rules, then obviously we did not lose fair & square.
GeorgeWelch wrote:Again you make no sense. If it did indeed meet the requirements, then what's the problem?
I have to quote George Welch, "I have no idea." :)
:roll:

The webmaster really should be above such trolling.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Singha »

war is won by smashing the tail of the enemy mashallah.

somehow I find the picture of a mixed unit of rafale (some for A2G, some souped up with rbe2 aa and meteor for top cover) as more convincing and soothing than same mix of EF. perhaps the EF does not look great with a bunch of thick A2G slung under its elegant and tall frame...it is a superb dancer, a ballerina who cannot dance with ugly fat men of the A2G munitions kind. a pity it might remain unmarried with us.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Boeing would be irresponsible to their shareholders if they didn't at least look for glaring flaws in the process.
:shock: Wow! Pride comes before the fall.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

Let us not discuss Boeing share holder issues here/
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

<del>

if you have a problem with any post report it. do NOT make comments like this on open forum.

p.s. I do not consider that particular post to be a problem.
Last edited by Rahul M on 11 May 2011 00:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added comment.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK wrote:Any video of Kat's dual tandem cockpit? btw, how many of tandem seats are we planning?
I really hope we go for the two seater Rafale B variant. All 126 of them. It is a beautiful platform in the A2G role and will be a perfect complement to the Su-30MKI.
SaiK wrote:Let us not discuss Boeing share holder issues here.
Agreed. My bad!
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Avid »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I have no problem believing that the F-18 and the F-16 lost on technical grounds

. . .

The mistake IMHO - and it was a big one - the American Govt made was with CISMOA, EUMA, LSA and a litany of other nonsensical agreements
You contradict yourself.

If the issue was technical, then those other issues had nothing to do with it and thus weren't a 'mistake' (at least at this point).
Actually, it is the same argument.

Not signing on the long list of acronyms de facto results in downgrade of the equipment in the aircraft and in some case elimination of some modules. Consequently, the aircraft do not pass the technical requirements. From IAF's point of view -- the aircraft did not technically perform. They care not for the cause.

Secondly, in addition to the failure with root cause of downgrade in equipment, there were some environmental failures -- i.e. sand in the SH radar, breathing difficulties for SH in high-altitude take-off, etc. These too were technical but root cause being SH was not designed to operate from ground and definitely not from high up in the Himalayas.

Finally, before anyone points out that American aircraft have been operating in the desert environment for a long time -- please look up the problems associated uniquely with Thar. All sand is not made equal :-)
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Victor »

On the Boeing issue, I can see where George is coming from. Consider the facts:

* GoI/IAF say ONLY technical issues per bidding rules will decide the winner.
That's great. No problem because everyone knew that going in.

* Some on BR are saying it is *more* than technical, ie. CISMOA etc.
This is a BIG problem if true (and I find it difficult to believe that it is). But if it turns out that Boeing/LM spent tons of resources competing on the basis of a requirement that was not spelled out in the bidding rules, we can rightly expect a legal assault.

There is nothing wrong with GoI/IAF not liking CISMOA etc. The Americans can understand that. But if CISMOA etc were in fact reasons for disqualification, were they also a part of the contract/bid requirements? If not, why not? I believe that we really did not have much takleef with these alphabet-soup agreements, regardless of what was said publicly, otherwise we would have made their absence a condition for moving ahead.

GoI has been fair and up-front in stating that everything is going to be transparent and everyone is going to be given all the info. Boeing is simply doing the due diligence in a contract it lost. Standard operating procedure. If the technical reasons for disqualification are straightforward and non-defensible for Boeing, end of story. Next!
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Avid »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Avid wrote:quote="GeorgeWelch"]
It carries more than the SH, not that there is anything wrong with the amount of stuff the SH carries.
quote]

True. But with the caveat that if it indeed carries as much as SH, it has be on external pylons and not internal bay.
Obviously, but it carries more whatever the situation.

If stealth is not required, it carries more.

If stealth is required, the others carry exactly nothing to the fight :P
Yes it carries as much when required, but moves slower and far less graciously while being entirely too visible.

Besides, this is a point that has been well-debated for longest times. JSF is not an option for MRCA because it simply does not come in time to fulfill the requirements, does not adhere to the ToT requirements, and the offset problems. Finally, and most importantly -- India invited LM to bid. It did not specify the aircraft LM was allowed to enter in the race. It was LM's choice to enter the F-16. Shall we end the debate about JSF now?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

Victor wrote:* GoI/IAF say ONLY technical issues per bidding rules will decide the winner.
That's great. No problem because everyone knew that going in.

* Some on BR are saying it is *more* than technical, ie. CISMOA etc.
This is a BIG problem if true (and I find it difficult to believe that it is). But if it turns out that Boeing/LM spent tons of resources competing on the basis of a requirement that was not spelled out in the bidding rules, we can rightly expect a legal assault.
Victor Saar, read the two points above again. Whose opinion has more validity in the *real* world? The GoI/IAF or an Armchair Admiral who assigns names of Bollywood actresses to aircraft and promises to distribute barfis if his favourite aircraft is chosen in the MMRCA selection? Nobody takes me seriously and neither do I! :lol:

Come on Boss, this disqualification is purely on technical grounds ONLY. My opinion - and that is all what it is - has no merit on the IAF/GoI decision. But to state that my opinion is true and Boeing will launch a legal assult if proven is sheer lunacy. And even if a legal suit is set up, do you really think that is a wise move? Do you really think the GoI will want to touch *anything* American again? Move on already. The short list is done.

America is NOT stupid to file a legal case because the MMRCA competition is only a small piece of a VERY large pie. But they now know what NOT to do for future competitions --> stop with the pressure tactics and let the American products compete on their own merits with full 100% transfer of technology.

BTW, does anyone know how many Super Hornets are there in the USAF? I know there have been talks of adopting them to make up for the fighter gap that is envisaged in the USAF. Not sure if that process has started.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

Exactly, ... it is like asking a katrina lover, why he doesn't love her friends [unless a split is seen :twisted: ].

Everyone would like to know in details what parameters were measured, and how did these two giants failed?
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

Air Force moving to higher trajectory?
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... epage=true
Should this be logically concluded by September 2011, as publicly promised by the Air Chief at the Aero India 2011, India should be applauded for asserting its independence in decision-making and for basing such a decision purely on the recommendations of our Air Force pilots.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by hnair »

problem with "legal assaults" is this - Indian Judges never read the script. For baffling reasons they apparently are not convinced by Saville Row and Armani suites. In the past they have thrown out european TV channel's lawsuits against GoI for allowing the harami DD to rebroadcast cricket.... :P

Got to move on. Other than the swords, there are a dollops of good stuff we need. Example, we still need pack animals to haul rice to the frontlines. Why should lawyers mess that up?

H&D loss is transient and skin will grow back.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

Actually Rakesh, that hindu link answers George as well:
To make the process transparent, the results were made known to the losers providing them with a technical appraisal as to why their offers were rejected. This gives rise to the hope that objectivity and technical considerations based on IAF's needs are gaining supremacy over the diplomatic palaver on old style loyalties of the Soviet era or emerging strategic ties with the US. One of the reasons is, of course, the financial prowess of India with robust growth of economy. The proposal now is to buy 126 fighters (later it may increase to 200) which may cost $15.75 billion if Typhoon is chosen or $11 billion if Rafale is preferred.

In the field of choice were the formidable Boeing's F/A 18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16N Super Viper. Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG, European Typhoon and the French Rafale. It appears the test pilots of the IAF found the Typhoon's man-machine interface presenting data streams from dozens of sensors on a single screen was the best. Rafale demonstrated outstanding instantaneous turn capabilities. By the way, Rafale has greatly impressed the experts by its performance in the recent Libyan sorties.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK: That article is a good read. Mupalla could be right when he predicted that Typhoon will win, even if it is a lot more expensive. And that would be a back door entry - win-win scenario for EuroJet - for the EJ 200 jet engine which lost out to GE's F414 turbofan in last year's Tejas competition. I still love my Katrina and pin my hopes on her. I really hope the Libyan sorties - in which the Rafale shined - will bear on the final decision making process.

Two seater Katrina, armed with AASMs and MICAs, taking out enemy targets....oooohhhhh! 8)

Singha Saar, may we please have a scenario aka Sqn Ldr Jacob of Rambha fame? How about Sqn Ldr Jacob transfering to a Katrina sqn? Time for a dhoti shiver :)
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

sensor integration to single screen from Ef2K is something we can learn for AMCA. However, we could still go with Kat since it is cheaper and pursue with EADS for AMCA help.

I am already dhoti shivering if Kat can kutta fight with bhandar and j20 sundars.
Last edited by SaiK on 11 May 2011 01:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by srai »

GeorgeWelch wrote:...

If the reason they didn't win was technical, don't be surprised to see Boeing make a technical argument, they are very good at picking apart legalese.

That's all I'm saying.
Knowing this, IAF/GoI is holding a big carrot in front of the Americans ... the deal for 10 (plus 6 options) C-17s which is worth at least $7 billion (when options are exercised). Then, there is also the 181 (75 + 106 license manufacture) basic trainer competition where T-6C Texan-II is reported leading the race (at least a $1 billion). Also, the exercising of 6 more C-130J options is guaranteed ($1 billion). 22 AH-64D Apache and 15 CH-47 Chinook are pretty much guaranteed (around $1 billion).

On top of this, the recent acquisition of 8 P-8I + 4 options ($4 billion). Another 4 options likely in the future (at least $1 billion).

All together, the value of deals coming the US's way in the next few years is more than $10 billion. This is about the same as the 126 MRCA deal.

However, if the Americans decide to play spoil sport and file a litigation on a tendering process that was as transparent as possible to the 6 participating contenders, then the IAF/IN/GoI can start pulling the plug on the deals mentioned above.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

And all these billions of khan planes comes with stripped versions.. increasing the dhoti shiver value. We should demand for equivalent upgrade or home grown /third party product upgrades for these.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

SaiK wrote:I am already dhoti shivering if Kat can kutta fight with bhandar and j20 sundars.
The Fundaar will be no competition for Katrina. She will make kheema out of the JF-17. Not sure about the J20 as it is just flown and is only a prototype. Nothing is known about her.
It appears the test pilots of the IAF found the Typhoon's man-machine interface presenting data streams from dozens of sensors on a single screen was the best. Rafale demonstrated outstanding instantaneous turn capabilities. By the way, Rafale has greatly impressed the experts by its performance in the recent Libyan sorties.
Saik: This above quote from the Hindu article...I can almost guarentee that the author got the two aircraft mixed. I believe it is the Rafale's sensors that can present data stream from dozens of sensors on a single screen and it is the Typhoon that has some impressive instantaneous turn capabilities, thanks to her powerful EJ-200 engines.

All Katrina lovers M-U-S-T read this article. A bit dated (Nov 2002), but interesting details. Link posted below;

France's Rafale has fire, but will glory remain a mirage?
http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/rafale.htm

Selected quotes from the above article...
The Rafale has an operating empty weight of around 22,000 pounds and was initially designed with a maximum take-off weight of 49,600 pounds. That figure has now been increased to 54,000 pounds, and Dassault is preparing a further jump to 60,000 pounds.
Without fuel or weapons, a Rafale weighs some 3,000 pounds more than a F-16C, but it can take off 10,000 pounds heavier. This allows the Rafale to carry as much as 21,000 pounds of external stores in addition to 9,000 pounds of internal fuel. With twin conformal fuel tanks holding a total of 600 US gallons of fuel - designed and flight-tested by Dassault during its campaign to win Korea's fighter contest - the Rafale can perform a 1,000-nm-radius strike mission, carrying both heavy air-to-surface weapons and air-to-air missiles.
Contrary to US or other European practice, the Rafale cockpit uses touch-screen panels. The 6-x-6-in. screens on either side of the HLD are touch-sensitive, and there is a touch-control cursor panel beneath the HLD. One advantage of touch-screen is that it provides more glass area in the same space by eliminating the ring of bezel switches around each screen. The Rafale pilot will be issued special silk-lined leather gloves, with no stitching on the fingertips, and a chamois insert, for wiping the screens, above the fingers.
SaiK: Saar, especially for you! :)
Despite all this automation, the French air force decided in the early 1990s that most of its operational Rafales would be Rafale B two-seaters. According to Dassault executives, this was not a matter of the pilot-vehicle interface failing to measure up to expectations. Rather, the service concluded that many Rafale missions would be longer and flown in more complex environments than expected. The French Navy is following suit, and as many as 40 of its 60 aircraft will be two-seat Rafale BM fighters.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Victor »

hnair wrote:problem with "legal assaults" is this - Indian Judges never read the script.
The shortcomings or otherwise of Indian judges are none of a bidder's concern. Loss of a major bid is, which is why it is every corporation's duty to do close the files with valid reasons for having lost. That's all this is.

Like I said, I don't think CISMOA et al were ever a problem, regardless of what was written in the press. Otherwise we would have been explicit in including them as disqualifiers. Also, I believe it was purely a technical decision where the clearly-spelled-out requirements of the IAF were not met by the F18/16. Both Boeing and LM will find out exactly why and that should be the end of it.

In the very unlikely event that the disqualifications were not so cut-and-dried, there will be a problem. But that is to be expected.
America is NOT stupid to file a legal case because the MMRCA competition is only a small piece of a VERY large pie. But they now know what NOT to do for future competitions --> stop with the pressure tactics and let the American products compete on their own merits with full 100% transfer of technology.
America will file a legal case only if it has a valid reason to do so, irrespective of the size of the pie. What they should or should not do in future will come after that is laid to rest.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

Victor wrote:America will file a legal case only if it has a valid reason to do so, irrespective of the size of the pie. What they should or should not do in future will come after that is laid to rest.
Then Amreeki is more than welcome to file one. We will see what needs to be done at our end.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

Awesome Rakesh ji. I don't mind to be the weapons person for an imaginary b-r-ide on Kat!!

Hope they also think about increasing internal fuel capacity if there is a possibility... Conformal Kat may look Fat! :twisted:

dhoti shiver++
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by SaiK »

hump back katrina! :wink:
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by hnair »

Victor wrote:
hnair wrote:problem with "legal assaults" is this - Indian Judges never read the script.
The shortcomings or otherwise of Indian judges are none of a bidder's concern. Loss of a major bid is, which is why it is every corporation's duty to do close the files with valid reasons for having lost. That's
saar,
1) "none of a bidder's concern" is great to hear. But for a country like US, that has overt "jury research, profiling and behavior/pisko analysis" firms for high stakes law suites, the Indan Judges' "shortcomings or otherwise" (as you put it :) ) must be of some concern.

2) Every corporation is told they suck once a while by a potential client. IAF did just that. They can close the file, like right now, since they have the valid reasons from IAF ("your plane sucks more than others").

Or they can mount an ill advised (from both GoI+IAF's and US' PoV) "legal assault". Which means Indian judges are of suddenly of concern
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Rakesh »

hnair: They lose a competition fair & square and suddenly talk of legal assault comes up. WOW! :roll: Just a preview of what would have happened, had the teens met the technical requirements.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Singha »

a 1000nm strike radius matches that of the much bigger su30.

I believe thats about twice that of a normal fighter going out on internal fuel. not sure how much the F_16_block52 can manage with CFT and but no drop tanks.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:hnair: They lose a competition fair & square and suddenly talk of legal assault comes up.
Well you have nothing to worry about. Since they lost fair & square, there won't be grounds for a protest.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Khalsa »

Dear George Welch

you said that Rakesh contradicted by stating F-16 and F-18 lost on technical grounds and stating stuff about CISMOA and LISMOA etc etc blah blah.

Perhaps I can give you a small analogy that will help you in understanding what we mean.

Lets say a dude turns up whi is well educated in electronics and wants to be a networking and electronics engineer working for the Indian Army. However there is a clause that their spiritual belief and morals do not allow them to pick up arms to kill another person even if they are Pakistani or Chinese or a terrorist. If the recruiter was me I would say welcome and send him to the Corps of Signals or as a private contractor put him in the MOD.

Lets say a rather large tall man with excellent physical attributes and strength turns and want to join the elite parachute regiment but says that their spiritual belief and morals do not allow them to pick up arms to kill another person even if they are Pakistani or Chinese or a terrorist. I would say here is broom go and clean the toilets or please or go away.

Now to come back to the MRCA discussion if CISMOA prevents a C-130 Hercules aircraft from doing something fantastic such lightining flashes or thunder then it may have been acceptable to the IAF because they can adjust and compensate for that using other means however if the CISMOA prevents us from exploiting a F-16 or F-18 to their full potential and therefore unable to extract the decisive edge in a battle then it is a technical shortcoming of the aircraft.

Lets leave it at that.

I once met a friend of mine in the IAF who flies Mig29s. Since he was no decision maker I asked him about his opinion on the F-16 for MRCA. His answer was as follows.
The Pakis fly it.

He explained it further by stating another example such as what if an IAF pilot met PAF pilot in combat and they matched in skill, would you not wish you had bought an aircraft to the show that was superior or atleast unfamiliar to the enemy. In this case our friendly enemy has learnt how to master the F-16 really well for the last 20 or so years.

So my friend George, the F-16 was never in the competition due to Pakistan and the F-18 was way outside the competition due to its rather large overlap of skills, weight, capability and class with the Su-30 MKI.

People try to look for complicated answers in stressful conditions. However the answer is quite simple.

Incidentally the answer was the same for Mig-29. Old, we already fly it. overlap with existing role and squadrons.
The only real contender was the Gripen in the group eleminated.
GeorgeWelch
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Khalsa wrote:Perhaps I can give you a small analogy that will help you in understanding what we mean.
All these conditions were known up front. If they were never going to be accepted, they shouldn't have been allowed in the competition to begin with.

Khalsa wrote:I once met a friend of mine in the IAF who flies Mig29s. Since he was no decision maker I asked him about his opinion on the F-16 for MRCA. His answer was as follows.
The Pakis fly it.
And of course no one has a problem buying more MKIs even though the Chinese have the Su-30.
Khalsa wrote:So my friend George, the F-16 was never in the competition due to Pakistan
If that's true, then India was fundamentally dishonest to ever allow it in the competition.
Khalsa wrote:and the F-18 was way outside the competition due to its rather large overlap of skills, weight, capability and class with the Su-30 MKI.


If that's true, then India was fundamentally dishonest to ever allow it in the competition.
koti
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by koti »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Khalsa wrote:and the F-18 was way outside the competition due to its rather large overlap of skills, weight, capability and class with the Su-30 MKI.


If that's true, then India was fundamentally dishonest to ever allow it in the competition.
Not necessarily George.
It is Boeing and LM who respectfully offered the SH and F16 of the Requirement IAF has requested.
It would have been better if the F-35 and F-15E were offered instead. So it was a technical miscalculation IMO by the LM that Boeing that led to their unimpressive performance.
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Post by Avid »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Rakesh wrote:hnair: They lose a competition fair & square and suddenly talk of legal assault comes up.
Well you have nothing to worry about. Since they lost fair & square, there won't be grounds for a protest.
Actually there is a few other grounds to not protest. Those being that they will lose out on many other lucrative contracts. What is the most they can win (if one might call it a win) - they will manage to nullify the contest. Courts cannot make going buy something. Result? Boeing/LM or any other american vendor will never get invited. In addition, the evaluation reports will become public. Can you imagine confirmation officially of the super hornets breathing difficulties?

Any legal assault will turn into a big lose-lose-lose for boeing-india-us. So, before you begin trying to show off the legal prowess of these companies, you may want to step back and appreciate the larger game. In this particular one they cannot win the battle, they can do damage and keep others from winning. However, that action is certain to guarantee their loss of the war.

Peace out George :-)
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