Bharat Rakshak

SwamyG wrote:

RoyG wrote:I think it was just a warning. Hitting now is suicide for them.

another attack, Indians will not wait for politics, they would just run across the borders themselves and beat up Porkis.

Absolute hogwash, we need one more attack - to not wait for politics ? How long a rope will we give the Modi government, just because it is Modi and BJP. Pathankot was the last straw for me.

from the now locked response thread:

viewtopic.php?p=2046599#p2046599

habal wrote:shall i wager what response will be this time.

blocking indus headworks for 15-20 days thus stunting pakjab's kharif crop.

tukka nishane par laga


http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/uri ... 32603.html

Uri avenge? India likely to revisit Indus Water Treaty with Pakistan
Last Updated: Friday, September 23, 2016 - 11:29

New Delhi: Amid heightened tensions with Pakistan, India on Thursday did not rule out revisiting the Indus Waters Treaty that was signed with Islamabad in 1960.

"I am sure you are aware that there are differences between India and Pakistan on the implementation of the Indus Waters Treaty," External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Vikas Swarup said in reply to a question at a media briefing here on Thursday.

"But this is an issue which is being addressed bilaterally. But let me make a basic point. Eventually, any cooperative arrangement requires goodwill and mutual trust on both sides," Swarup said.

"For any such treaty to work, it is important there must be mutual trust and cooperation. It can't be a one-sided affair."

Pankaj, while cancelling MFN does not make much difference, I believe we must do it for 2 reasons:
- We can't ask the world to call them a terrorist state when we extend MFN to them. It looks terrible.
- Does not affect our exports as they don't extend it to us.
There is nothing significant we import from them - except things like onions if the prices are higher in India.

jash_p wrote:Musharf signed a International treaty document giving guarantee that Pakis will not send any terrorist from its territory and pakis have brokent it then why we should not break a treaty which was good faith ?

Despite Musharraf signing that treaty when did Pakistan really stop infiltrating terrorists to J&K ? Number of terrorist attacks on security forces in J&K may have gone down but never really stopped. On the average there were always ~ 5/6 attacks on monthly basis with upto 50 - 60 terrorists killed on yearly basis. Some of these attacks may have been "indigenous" but the rest were by Paki terrorists who crossed the LOC.

Now even if we consider these attacks within our "threshold" of tolerance, Gurdaspur and Pathankot was outside J&K and readline was crossed.

jash_p wrote:Musharf signed a International treaty document giving guarantee that Pakis will not send any terrorist from its territory and pakis have brokent it then why we should not break a treaty which was good faith ?

Which treaty, where & when?

IIRC Musharraf made verbal promises but no treaty was signed.

habal wrote:blocking indus headworks for 15-20 days thus stunting pakjab's kharif crop.

Are you referring to Madhopur headworks? That's across Ravi.

Dipanker wrote:

jash_p wrote:Musharf signed a International treaty document giving guarantee that Pakis will not send any terrorist from its territory and pakis have brokent it then why we should not break a treaty which was good faith ?

Despite Musharraf signing that treaty when did Pakistan really stop infiltrating terrorists to J&K ? It never stopped.

the pakis are now desperately probing to discover the probable contours of any possible Indian response, using their paltu kuttas in the Indian MSM and lootyens gang + commie stooges. Never have they been so rattled by the combination of a strong PM and unparalleled public revulsion against the pakis.

India renegotiating the IWT is one of their pet nightmares as their own people will find out how unfair the treaty actually is to India.

What ever Modi has to do, should be done publicly and should hit the pakis hard. At the same time it should be like an iceberg, with only 4-5% being actually and highly visible and the remaining 95% submerged and doing the bulk of the damage.

The fat sandpaper encased Indian state's forefinger should first anally probe the paki cross border trade and cause the first bleeding by permanently shutting it off.

Dipanker wrote:IIRC Musharraf made verbal promises but no treaty was signed.

Exactly. It was in January 2004 that Musharraf spoke to Vajpayee and gave him the solemn assurance that Pakistani territory would not be used in terror against India. He also told his American interlocutors the same thing. It was similar to the speech he made on Jan. 12, 2002 to his own countrymen, exactly a month after the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament. We should not make a spectacle of ourselves by quoting from our imagination, just like what the Pakis do.

SSridhar wrote:

Dipanker wrote:IIRC Musharraf made verbal promises but no treaty was signed.

Exactly. It was in January 2004 that Musharraf spoke to Vajpayee and gave him the solemn assurance that Pakistani territory would not be used in terror against India. He also told his American interlocutors the same thing. It was similar to the speech he made on Jan. 12, 2002 to his own countrymen, exactly a month after the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament. We should not make a spectacle of ourselves by quoting from our imagination, just like what the Pakis do.

Yesterday a paki analyst on Bol Bol pakistan show showed a copy of paper signed by Mushraf that pakis will not allow terrorist to strike in India.

Bakis are well know for such dramas. They conjure facts out of thin air. It is one of their specialties.

shiv wrote:

milano wrote: I' think I read Yashwant Sinha saying that pulling out would set a dangerous precedent that would then allow China to do similar things to us.

The problem with Yeshwant Sinha's logic is that our "goodness shown" towards Pakistan cannot guarantee that China will show us goodness, We have to work for our interests. If we stop Indus water we can still demand and dispute China's actions

Good point, Shiv. Makes sense that China's behaviour as an upper riparian state is not necessarily conditional on what we do.

I tend to agree with analysts who say india's standing will suffer if we abrogate, however I don't think it would be meaningful damage to our reputation. We are the aggrieved party and within our rights to abrogate. If anything this is coercive diplomacy with real teeth to it and would show we are willing to take decisive action which has the potential to turn most of Pak into a desert if we choose. World opinion may become very hostile of course if we start choking water flow, but opinion is transitory. I don't agree with Prof Fair that abrogation and any action stemming from that would lead to war in the short term - international law allows us to abrogate and I doubt the Paks would want to risk starting a war that would be guaranteed to lead to significant damage to them.

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/li-keqia ... rd-1465336
Li Keqiang Says China-Pak Friendship Unbreakable But Skips 'K' Word
World | Press Trust of India | Updated: September 23, 2016 02:11 IST
China Premier Li Keqiang expressed hope that situation between India and Pakistan would not escalate.
NEW YORK: References to Kashmir and tensions arising out of Uri terror attack were conspicuously absent in Chinese official media coverage of the meeting between China Premier Li Keqiang and his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif in New York.
As all-weather strategic partners of cooperation, China and Pakistan have always firmly supported each other and their friendship is unbreakable, state-run Xinhua news agency quoted Mr Li as saying while meeting Mr Sharif on the sidelines of UN General Assembly session.
China stands ready to deepen all-round practical cooperation with Pakistan and is willing to make joint efforts with Islamabad in injecting new impetus into the development of bilateral relations, Li Keqiang said.
While noting that practical cooperation focussing on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) has made positive progress, Mr Li urged the two sides to carry out the planned construction of the corridor, accelerate the building of the Gwadar Port as well as its supporting facility, and bring more companies into industrial parks, the report said.
China is willing to maintain close high-level contacts and continue to strengthen coordination with Pakistan on global and regional affairs, Mr Li said.
However, contrary to reports in Pakistan media, there were no references to Kashmir situation or Uri attack in Xinhua's story on Li-Sharif meeting.....
Gautam

http://www.firstpost.com/world/uri-terr ... 11654.html
Uri terror attack and a sense of déjà vu: India has no partner for peace in Pakistan
On 18 September, terrorists suspected to belong to the Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan attacked an Indian Army camp at Uri in a pre-dawn raid, killing 18 soldiers. The South Asian commentariat has gone into its usual and predictable tizzy, some quarters demanding military action while others urge a firm reprimand, international pressure, 'strategic restraint', and talks. A good dose of recrimination on past policies and (in)actions is also available. In a few days, perhaps a week, calm will return and all will be forgotten... until the next terrorist attack. Ultimately, 18 soldiers would still be dead and the country would still be hapless about its own defence, but the commentariat would have inched closer to reaching their monthly writing quota.
There is nothing new in the terrorist attack at Uri — whether in the terrorists' methods and capacity to acquire intelligence and materials or in what India might have learned about the intentions of its western neighbour and its proxies; nor is there anything new in what has been produced in the newspaper columns and television studios across the country. It would have probably been easier and cheaper to simply recycle the columns and video clips from the previous terrorist attack.
Despite an avalanche of advice from armchair as well as erstwhile military strategists, Delhi's response to terrorism with Pakistani fingerprints has always been to bluster and bear it. India accuses Pakistan of conducting terrorism from behind a nuclear shield and although Islamabad has not changed the situation in the past two decades, there does not seem to have been much movement either intellectually or materially from India's side either. Simply put, India has been and still is without an option against Pakistan.....
Gautam
PS Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

jash_p wrote:Yesterday a paki analyst on Bol Bol pakistan show showed a copy of paper signed by Mushraf that pakis will not allow terrorist to strike in India.

And, what was his claim, that therefore the Uri, Pampore, Pathankot, 26/11 could not have emanated from Pakistan? The whole world knows that Pakis are inveterate liars. The Paki list is long and inglorious.

The Hudabaya speech of Musharraf led to attempts on his life, when he was at the peak of his power, thrice and he escaped by the narrowest of margins, by the good grace of Allah & Americans (the order may be reversed). If the frothing-at-the-mouth-corner, above-ankle-shalwar wearing, unkempt beard keeping jihadi Islamists could not understand his duplicitous speech and mounted a savage attack on him, one can imagine his fate if he had a written down treaty with India not to allow terrorists to use Pakistani land.

A piece worth reading and sharing specially with and US Congressmen and other policy makers one knows.
America Must Stand by India—and Pressure Pakistan

Me think Uri attack thread was blocked prematurely.

MohdKav wrote:

SwamyG wrote: another attack, Indians will not wait for politics, they would just run across the borders themselves and beat up Porkis.

Absolute hogwash, we need one more attack - to not wait for politics ? How long a rope will we give the Modi government, just because it is Modi and BJP. Pathankot was the last straw for me.

It is clear from your response, you did not understand what I am saying.

chetak wrote: the pakis are now desperately probing to discover the probable contours of any possible Indian response, using their paltu kuttas in the Indian MSM and lootyens gang + commie stooges. Never have they been so rattled by the combination of a strong PM and unparalleled public revulsion against the pakis.

That takleef is what makes some jingoes happy. They know something will happen, if India is doing something that cannot be talked out in the open - they already know somethings are happening. However, the public anger and the traits of the present sarkar, they do not know what ALL is going to happen. They are going to be scared of their very own shadows now. Air, water, earth or fire. Or is it ether?

Three things can happen, when they are so freaked out:
1. Display bravado.
2. Quiver and draw themselves in fetal position.
3. Make a few foolish steps - like @ India again.

If #3 happens within the next few months, then like Seshadrichari said on Times Now, Pakistan will not see independence day next year. That is what he said 2 days ago after the Uri attack.

"Stop Baloch atrocities or face sanctions: European Union to Pakistan"


GENEVA (Switzerland): Expressing solidarity with the people of Balochistan against Pakistan's atrocities+ , European Parliament vice president Ryszard Czarneckihas said the European Union may impose economic and political sanctions on Islamabad, if the Asian nation fails to stop human rights violation+ in the region.

"I told the European Union during our human rights debate that if our partner countries do not accept human rights and standards, in this situation we should react and seek sanctions like some moves in economic fields," he told ANI.

Czarnecki, who attended a silent vigil where the protesters condemned Pakistan+ for the ongoing atrocities and paid homage to those who lost their lives, added that it is not the time for words, but for actions.

"We have bilateral economic and political relations with Pakistan and if it will not change its state policy towards Balochistan+ , then we would change our attitude towards Islamabad and towards the government of Pakistan," he said.

Stating that Islamabad has dual standards, the European Parliament vice president said on one hand it shows a clean face to the world while on the other it indulges in human rights violations.
"Pakistan has two faces. It is the open face to us and the other is the brutal face towards Balochistan," he said, adding that all the 28 members of the EU should react against Pakistan's brutal operations and policies towards the Baloch people.

He also acknowledged the problem in Pakistan is that the government is controlled by the military.

"The problem is that the government in Islamabad practically doesn't control the situation and now is the time to accept and react to this situation. The people in Balochistan must feel our solidarity," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 484297.cms


Things are moving fast.

'48.7% youth in Karachi want to leave the country’

KARACHI: Around 48.7% of young people in Karachi want to leave the country, said Ammad Zafar of Karachi University public administration department on Thursday.

Their reasons include unemployment, insecurity, economic problems and lack of social support and career opportunities, he explained.

Endorsing the facts pointed out in Zafar’s research, an MPhil scholar of the public administration department, Salman Khatani, said that 90% of young people do not see any opportunities for them in Karachi. Around 41% people are uncertain about the future of the city due to the political instability and are, therefore, not inclined to get involved in civic engagement, he added.

Pointing towards the increasing trend in migration, Zafar said that in the last six years, more than 3.7 million people have migrated from Pakistan to seek employment in other countries, particularly in the Middle East. Approximately 1 million people migrated from Pakistan in 2015, he said.

According to a survey by Gallup Pakistan, two-thirds of the population of Pakistan wishes to leave the country, he added.

Cheers

They need more Islam. That is the solution onlee.

Amber G. wrote:A piece worth reading and sharing specially with and US Congressmen and other policy makers one knows.
America Must Stand by India—and Pressure Pakistan

Another well written piece from the same author:
Denying Pakistan the Dividends of Terror

BTW I knew it would be fun to watch NS's self goals in UN.. when the following tweet from Pakistan's UN envoy Maleeha Lodhi came -
(One can't even make such things up) ...

Lodhi's Tweet wrote: "Entering the UN for the PM's Actress to the GA"

"The defenders of our skies, in a state of constant readiness, Alhamdolillah. Our motorways are our runways. #PAF" he tweeted with colourful pictures of jet fighters on impressive highways.

They turned out to be pictures of US and South Korean jets in training.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

^^^
Wait till all the talk shows in Bakiland go... Alhamdolillah, now USA and South Korea are also supporting Pakistan on its position in Kashmir!

Amber G. wrote:"The defenders of our skies, in a state of constant readiness, Alhamdolillah. Our motorways are our runways. #PAF" he tweeted with colourful pictures of jet fighters on impressive highways.

They turned out to be pictures of US and South Korean jets in training.

Kufr!

Those are baki tayyaras camouflaged to look like US and S. Koreans in training to fool the baniyas. By the way, are you aware that there will soon be a day as envisioned by our "martial genrail" raheel (pbuh) al shareef and horse generail hamid (double pbuh), insurelaw, that every mard, motomama and bachcha will one day own an F-16 in al bakistan. We will soon have 200 million tayyaras lining up our highways.

I think we should restrict thread to just Pak reaction not lose focus. Other threads are there for other reactions.

thanks,
ramana

jash_p wrote:Musharf signed a International treaty document giving guarantee that Pakis will not send any terrorist from its territory and pakis have brokent it then why we should not break a treaty which was good faith ?

jash_p Ji :

It is Vajpayee's fault that he believed in Mush the Tush's word :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQMyzfkXw0A.

Cheers

folks nothing much is going to happen, as has been demonstrated by the response to pathankot, gurdaspur, pampore, udhampur etc attacks. there is nothing different about URI. just because 17 died in one attack vs 17 die almost every month (one or two at a time). GOI knows it, and hence will not do much. they need FDI to prop up the economy, hence the apple cart cannot be disturbed beyond a certain point. After Wani's death, pak's ego was hurt and they took retribution in URI that's all. this circus will keep going on and on. if we think we can stop all kinds of attack in kashmir then we are living in fools paradise no matter what kind of technology we deploy at the border. U.S has not been able to stop all the attacks on itself and they have the best technology. the best thing is not to raise expectation of the indian public. Also India won't be able to isolate pakistan beyond a point. IWT cut off is not an option and will never be exercised as china will do the same from the east (they are just waiting an excuse). India does not have whole lot of leverage against pakistan.

partha wrote:There must be credible intel input about an impending attack on Mumbai. Even NSG in Delhi has been put on stand by. So looks serious. Mumbai already has an NSG unit stationed there after 26/11. As far as whether Pakis can really do another 26/11 now, yes they can. May be Uri was just the first one in a series of attacks planned.

The Pak generals has to make certain resource investment to make sure there are successful terrorist attacks in India. So few folks will be send to India with multipe targets in hand. They (Generals) will ensure that there is ROI in it. Now what they want is the question

If you look at the pattern on attacks from 2005 - 2008, it was more on the civilian targets and looks like part of a certain program. The actors left India after the program was closed down (See Dave Headley mentioning multiple visits to India, also Hafiz sayed celebrating with laddu's at the 26/11 conclusion). Now what they wanted to achieve, probably negate India's image on investment, toursim etc. They didnt succeed

If you look at the latest pattern starting 2014, it has been on military targets, so we have to assume that there are few folks inside India who are adept in this. May be they want to look at ways reducing Indian military effectiveness. If the bases are attacked, military operations will start getting affected. May be that is the intention

FWIW

US pundit George Perkovich on the strategic dilemma India faces today vis-vis Pakistan ─ Perkovich candidly says that India has run out of options and has no way of addressing the challenge of terrorism on an enduring basis except by engaging the people of the Kashmir politically, and the alternative will be a seamless asymmetric war.

sukhish wrote:US pundit George Perkovich on the strategic dilemma India faces today vis-vis Pakistan ─ Perkovich candidly says that India has run out of options and has no way of addressing the challenge of terrorism on an enduring basis except by engaging the people of the Kashmir politically, and the alternative will be a seamless asymmetric war.

He is wrong, India has many options . Abrogation of IWT is an existential threat to Pakistan, China does not have IWT kind of leverage on India, IIRC it's already diverting part of Tsangpo ( Brahmaputra ) water without any noticeable impact. If it stops Indus, there is very little water flowing in the Indian part of Indus, that's about it.

India can pay Pakistan in the same coin. India can support movements like Jiye SIndh, Free Balochistan, support Afghanistan on Durand Line issue, ownership of FATA/NWFP, India can heat up the border to the extent that it becomes unbearable for Pakistan, possibilities are endless...

Perhaps George can recall the terrible toll taken by the so-called bad Taliban.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... alties.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... since_2001

There is nothing asymmetric about it.

India has been brutal on the LOC-see for instance generalmatters' write-up on establishing moral ascendancy. There was severe punishment in 2002 when the military was mobilised-Musharraf did not sign papers from the goodness of his black heart. For Uri there have been savage reprisals in Pakistan itself by the Indian army.

Pakistan dare not even protest lest their adoring subjects start questioning why only minorities in Pakistan fear the Pakistan army.

Abrogation of IWT is an existential threat to Pakistan, China does not have IWT kind of leverage on India, IIRC it's already diverting part of Tsangpo ( Brahmaputra ) water without any noticeable impact. If it stops Indus, there is very little water flowing in the Indian part of India, that's about it.


Most of the watersheds for the Indus and Brahmaputra lie cis-Himalayas.

sukhish wrote:folks nothing much is going to happen, as has been demonstrated by the response to pathankot, gurdaspur, pampore, udhampur etc attacks. there is nothing different about URI. just because 17 died in one attack vs 17 die almost every month (one or two at a time). GOI knows it, and hence will not do much. they need FDI to prop up the economy, hence the apple cart cannot be disturbed beyond a certain point. After Wani's death, pak's ego was hurt and they took retribution in URI that's all. this circus will keep going on and on. if we think we can stop all kinds of attack in kashmir then we are living in fools paradise no matter what kind of technology we deploy at the border. U.S has not been able to stop all the attacks on itself and they have the best technology. the best thing is not to raise expectation of the indian public. Also India won't be able to isolate pakistan beyond a point. IWT cut off is not an option and will never be exercised as china will do the same from the east (they are just waiting an excuse). India does not have whole lot of leverage against pakistan.

Not correct. The average # of security personnel (J&K police+CRPF+Army) killed is around ~60 /year, for less than the ~ 204 you are suggesting, that too the police and CRPF make relatively soft target.

^^^
~60 per year is only in the recent years, at its peak it crossed 500 a decade and half ago. Anyways the figure is already over 60 for the year as per this site: http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... alties.htm

^ yes was talking about the last 10 years only, 90's was a different scenario, so too was early 2000's. If we consider the last 5 years, average would be around 40 or so.

sukhish wrote:folks nothing much is going to happen, as has been demonstrated by the response to pathankot, gurdaspur, pampore, udhampur etc attacks. there is nothing different about URI. just because 17 died in one attack vs 17 die almost every month (one or two at a time). GOI knows it, and hence will not do much. they need FDI to prop up the economy, hence the apple cart cannot be disturbed beyond a certain point. After Wani's death, pak's ego was hurt and they took retribution in URI that's all. this circus will keep going on and on. if we think we can stop all kinds of attack in kashmir then we are living in fools paradise no matter what kind of technology we deploy at the border. U.S has not been able to stop all the attacks on itself and they have the best technology. the best thing is not to raise expectation of the indian public. Also India won't be able to isolate pakistan beyond a point. IWT cut off is not an option and will never be exercised as china will do the same from the east (they are just waiting an excuse). India does not have whole lot of leverage against pakistan.

the tempo is going up and inshallah we shall have an aar paar ki ladaai in 2019.
this is trial run for that.
2018 pakistan shall default her debt repayment which in some accounts is $18 billion due in '18.
bankers will wash their hands off project pakistan and we need to be ready by then.
we shall have a war in 2019 and not a day too soon.
pakistan will not receive a single western weapon system in interim, that is the clue.

sukhish wrote:US pundit George Perkovich on the strategic dilemma India faces today vis-vis Pakistan ─ Perkovich candidly says that India has run out of options and has no way of addressing the challenge of terrorism on an enduring basis except by engaging the people of the Kashmir politically, and the alternative will be a seamless asymmetric war.

In other words, he and other like Ajai Shukla moron types are being too clever by half when they say "engage people of Kashmir" because essentially that means, engage TSP. I mean, anybody worth his salt will tell you that India has made a zillion overtures, conducted elections, told KMs that "anything but secession" is on the table, and yet, nothing has happened. Why? because the KMs are TSP's proxies and they are only parroting what TSP asks them to, and "engaging" them means they will make the obnoxious demand of tripartite talks. Which in the end means, India finding some way of handing over Kashmir valley to TSP on a silver platter.

The moron that interviewed him has no brains to ask counter questions to Perkowich like why no sanctions on TSP, Iran/NK style. They can give all kinds of advice to India because its no skin off their backs.

Of all the anal-yses, Fair didi's was brilliant and spot on as usual, not that we don't know, but we would be dismissed as "Hindu extremists" for saying what she does. Anyway, only point of disagreement I have with her is that in one of her pieces, she suggests that India must eschew bringing up Baluchistan because then TSP and the "world" will hold India and TSP at the same moral equivalence. This is hog wash. World already does holds India and TSP at the same level. Its essentially equal equal. India must continue to support Baluchis because if India backs off after Uri, that means rewarding TSP for its terror, something that even Fair Did says must not be on the table.

One fall out of India's inability to hit TSP, at least as of today for Uri and Patankot type attacks (and many more before that) is that slowly but steadily, a kind of deja vu sets in, and the traitors and bogus p!ssniks and pseudo secularists on our side will get the upper hand. They will start advocating pee-pee contact, equal equal (TSP has pigLeTs, India has RSS) mantra, some colonial p!ss institute from Norway will come out with a paper on "how pee pee on both sides" desire p!ss but for "extremists" on "both sides"; you get the drift. And has always been the case umpteen times, ModiJi or whoever, will make some cowardly gesture masquerading as statesmanship, and the cycle repeats.