ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

[SaiK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK6W0OATveQ
So, is the 53T6 Gazelle only ABM that has nuclear warhead? [10kt/wiki]

the launch is breath taking

[Austin]

They have removed the nuclear warhead long time back almost more than a decade and replaced it with conventional warhead on Gazzle.

[Singha]

we should have our own GPS constellation to cover asia and IOR and west pacific and gulf (estimate of 9-12 sats in 3-4 orbital planes?) but also retain the GLONASS access. in the event of a war, china will certainly target our sats but might think twice about putting down a neutral russian sat. ofcourse they can try to jam both.

we need some form of ASAT capability to target chinese milsats. methinks the Shourya is the best platform to knock off sats upto 1000km height if it releases a small kill vehicle with IIR and radar seeker. for bigger sats in GEO we will need something more costly like A4-AT to fly out and release a big kill vehicle .... even testing it is going to be a hassle.

being long lead projects , hope teams are on it.

[koti]

^Or we can have the kill vehicles as smaller and dual use satellites that can guide themselves towards target satellites and knock them down.

We can piggyback them with PSLV, GSLV launches.

[Austin]

Aegis BMD Stellar Vengeance (FTM-16 Event 2A) Flight Test Mission Success Quicklook



Video footage is really excellent , SM-3 is really big 3 stage interceptor with 4th stage KKV using two IR color seeker and maneuvering capability in space.

[svinayak]

BUILD A LITTLE
TEST A LITTLE
LEARN A LOT

This quote from the Admiral is exactly what INDIAN DRDO has been practicing for more than 30 years.
They have been copying India

[SaiK]

yes.. this is my dream.. everytime we launch either civilian or drdo tests, we send an independent unit to space, that is pluggable+dockable.

So, we could build our own ISS (Indian Space Station), that is whole purpose is an integrator for ABMs, ASATS, mil ops, launch detection etc. The sytems go lego mode, in building up power supply, thrusters, etc.. each module can be unplugged and dropped off., and replaced with new one.

Dual use ISS.

[PratikDas]

BUILD A LITTLE
TEST A LITTLE
LEARN A LOT

This quote from the Admiral is exactly what INDIAN DRDO has been practicing for more than 30 years.
They have been copying India

My thoughts exactly when I saw that.

[Jayram]

BUILD A LITTLE
TEST A LITTLE
LEARN A LOT

That also is essentially the philosophy behind Agile Programming methodology..

[SaiK]

agile methodology and real-time systems... are oceans apart.

the little has to be a complete usable unit/system/ by the end-user.

all these agile methodlogy is for managers who wants to report to higher management on the status of the system. no body uses agile the way it should be. very few... and extreme is more useful.

all depends on what system you build. just think about how agile you want to be for the user to v&v. 2 years [example AV]? is that agile? model does not fit.

[Roperia]

Delhi, Mumbai to get missile defence shield

Indian BMD going into production, waits for plan approval from CCS.

[keshavchandra]

Delhi, Mumbai to get missile defence shield

Indian BMD going into production, waits for plan approval from CCS.

Government baffled over DRDO chief’s claim on missile shield
SOURCE: INDIA TODAY
I still not get the point, why always indian generalists feels so proud to show such a shaggy show, half cooked one. The truth is, now we have a working defence shield with a decent accuracy of 6 out of 7 trials.
We need to speed up the tests with not just prathvi as traget but with some higher speed targets like agni. And MOD should need work out on fundamentals for the absorption and final induction under which of the services.

[Singha]

clearing missile shield might be our new Raksha mantri's first major file signoff he he he

[veerav]

Could anyone share whether IAF Phalcon AWACS evert used in the ABM testing?

[Rahul M]

Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'
by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

[Aditya_V]

Good rebutall, regarding Paki's increase thier weapons, thier past behaviour suggets, they have the maximum weapons they can have, whether there is ABM or no ABM, so no point holding back.

[Rony]

Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'
by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

from the above article,

Acknowledgements: Mihir Shah would like to extend his sincere gratitude to Rahul M, Nitin V, and Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj for contributing their considerable knowledge and views and their assistance in critiquing this rebuttal.

Is that you Rahul he is talking about ? If yes, nice job and thanks a ton !

[MN Kumar]

Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'
by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

from the above article,

Acknowledgements: Mihir Shah would like to extend his sincere gratitude to Rahul M, Nitin V, and Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj for contributing their considerable knowledge and views and their assistance in critiquing this rebuttal.

Is that you Rahul he is talking about ? If yes, nice job and thanks a ton !

Great job Rahul, Nitin and Sanjay.
Is this Nitin our BRF oldie?

[member_22539]

Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'
by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

+1 Nice rebuttal, besides being a fellow Game of Thrones fan, nothing more to ask for

[Rahul M]

Rony, yes. most of the folk here would recognize the other grizzled BR jingos as well. the original idea of a rebut developed out of a discussion between Dr SBM (BR username : Sanjay) and moi. spread the idea around and inputs poured in, esp from that 'credible hulk'* Nitin. Mihir, already experienced with quite a few well known and regarded articles took it up to thrash those opinions into succinct form and did a mighty fine job of it IMHO.

sincere thanks to Saurav Jha as well for hosting the rebut.


* in case you are wondering about credible hulk : http://cassiebehle.files.wordpress.com/ ... ee0560.jpg

[SaiK]

Is there copy/text of that ibnlive link? can't hit from my net/filtered out

[kit]

If your service provider blocks you from assessing any link use ultrasurf.you dont even have to install it.Strangely it blocks BRF !

[Mihir]

Aditya_V, Arun Menon, thanks!

It wouldn't have happened without Rahul, Nitin, and Sanjay's support.

[yantra]

Rahul, Mihir, et. al - wonderfully elucidated!

Even if the BMD is 80% effective, and if by happen chance, the first 2-3 missiles are successfully intercepted over one target (assuming the 20% failure happens statistically later, or only if the BMD is overwhelmed), it will put the enemy under tremendous pressure. And the reaction time being of essence here, they will not have any - since India would have launched the offensive by then.

[Aditya_V]

Aditya_V, Arun Menon, thanks!

It wouldn't have happened without Rahul, Nitin, and Sanjay's support.

Nope, Thank you sir and others for putting this article and convincing the relevant people that it should be in public domain.

[merlin]

Where is Nitin V these days?

[Prem Kumar]

X-posting:

I feel there is value in keeping our ABM capabilities/numbers a secret or at least understating them.

While deterrence is achieved by stating one's arsenal, in the case of ABM, the opposite might be true. The exception would be cases like the Star Wars program, which had the objective of straining the SU economy.

Are there any other scenarios where the advertisement of one's ABM capabilities actually help?

I can think of a couple: a conventional retaliation to a terrorist attack (or) a first conventional strike to say, re-take POK (or) a nuclear first strike. The last doesnt apply to us.

The point I am trying to make is that a public statement of ABM capabilities tends to make more sense when pursuing a "pro-active military strategy"

Thoughts?

[Katare]

Where is Nitin V these days?

He was the most knowledgeable BRF gurus to ever walk the surface of the earth, bar none. Although he was ridiculously pro-DRDO with little capacity to suffer other poster's ignorance or critique.

May god give his soul peace while he rests!
May he rise again like a phoenix and take his rightful place at BRF!

[alexis]

X-posting:

I feel there is value in keeping our ABM capabilities/numbers a secret or at least understating them.

While deterrence is achieved by stating one's arsenal, in the case of ABM, the opposite might be true. The exception would be cases like the Star Wars program, which had the objective of straining the SU economy.

Are there any other scenarios where the advertisement of one's ABM capabilities actually help?

I can think of a couple: a conventional retaliation to a terrorist attack (or) a first conventional strike to say, re-take POK (or) a nuclear first strike. The last doesnt apply to us.

The point I am trying to make is that a public statement of ABM capabilities tends to make more sense when pursuing a "pro-active military strategy"

Thoughts?

We are following the Sun Tzu strategy: since we have not reached a level we are comfortable with the capabilities/numbers of ABM, we are overstating its capabilities/numbers!

Once it reaches maturity, we will no longer hear about it.

[Singha]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology ... story.html

X51A scramjet test fails due to faulty control fin.

[Austin]

U.S. Eyes Missile Defense Work With India

Pentagon officials have opened the way to cooperating with India on ballistic missile defense (BMD).

Washington is conducting a cooperative development of the SM-3 IIA interceptor with Tokyo, and interest in India is part of the Pentagon's larger plan to increase its presence and influence in the Asia-Pacific region.

“That is an important potential area for our future cooperation. . . . BMD has great strategic importance and, therefore, the two governments should discuss that strategically before they discuss that technically,” said U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter during a trip to India last month.

India plans eventually to deploy systems to protect against intermediate-range and intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) in some of its major cities. A detailed proposal is being prepared for approval by the Indian government.

The missile defense program, developed by India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO), has carried out seven tests, the first in March 2006 and the final one last February. Six were deemed successful.

India's system is designed to destroy an incoming ballistic missile with a range of up to 2,000 km (1,240 mi.). DRDO used variants of surface-to-surface, short-range Prithvi missiles as simulated targets and intercepted incoming missiles in test firings.

Its BMD program has a two-tiered system, with the Prithvi missile for high-altitude, exoatmospheric intercepts and advanced air defenses for low-altitude endoatmospheric interception. In the most recent test, DRDO's Air Defense Missile AAD-05 intercepted a modified Prithvi ballistic missile at 15-km altitude off the coast of Orissa in East India.

During tests thus far, radars tracked the incoming ballistic missile and provided continuous updates to the AAD-05 interceptor. The missile also employed an onboard radio-frequency seeker in the endgame.

In the most recent test, India's Radar and Electro Optic Tracking Systems (EOTS) tracked the missile and also recorded the fragments of the target missile falling into the Bay of Bengal. The mission was carried out in the final deliverable user-configuration mode.

Plans call for two new antiballistic missiles to intercept ICBMs at a range of 5,000 km by 2016.

DRDO says its young system is comparable to the U.S. Patriot, a terminal area-defense system that was used for the first time during the 1990 Persian Gulf war.

“The ballistic missile defense shield is now mature,” DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat says. “We are ready to put Phase 1 in place, and it can be put in [in a] very short time.” India will likely deploy it in two locations, Saraswat says.

[member_23370]

Why only 2 locations? The PDV was supposed to be tested a long time back. Things have gone silent on PDV, AD-I/II and swordfish-II front.

[ramana]

Austin, Hope that article will quench Manoj Joshi's quest for recording of post intercept fragments! Its from a US publication.

In the most recent test, DRDO's Air Defense Missile AAD-05 intercepted a modified Prithvi ballistic missile at 15-km altitude off the coast of Orissa in East India.

During tests thus far, radars tracked the incoming ballistic missile and provided continuous updates to the AAD-05 interceptor. The missile also employed an onboard radio-frequency seeker in the endgame.

In the most recent test, India's Radar and Electro Optic Tracking Systems (EOTS) tracked the missile and also recorded the fragments of the target missile falling into the Bay of Bengal. The mission was carried out in the final deliverable user-configuration mode.

[Austin]

True , although AAD is quite capable to intercept at 25-30 km altitude , giving it a possibility to intercept the target twice at 15 and 25/30 km ...for reference PAC-3 is capable of intercepting ballistic targets at 15 km.

SM-3IIA cooperation will be very interesting as it contains many key technologies not seen on other ABM interceptors.

[Austin]

Higher-Altitude Arrow Design To Show Its Potential

[member_23370]

I doubt India will ever go for Arrow. The best to be hoped for is to collaborate on AD-1/AD-2 with Israel and see where that goes. Still waiting for PDV.

[SaiK]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19628
went public claiming that a two-layered missile shield has been successfully developed and ready for deployment in its Phase-I, drawing much flak. While insiders are claiming that the tests have been conducted under laboratory or controlled experimental conditions with “mimic enemy missiles”, DRDO officials, while speaking to this newspaper, said that there was no point in wasting time and money on proper missiles.

Sources revealed that tests were conducted with a mimic enemy missile which was a slow-moving Prithvi and was launched just 70 km from the Odisha coast. Meanwhile, DRDO said that the missile had the same terminal velocity as a 2,000 km-range missile when it was intercepted by an “interceptor missile” of the BMD system.

Sources, however, refuted the claims stating that the tests have been conducted under controlled conditions with liquid-propelled missile deriva-tes or simulated models of slow-moving Prithvi, contrary to the actual requi-rement of testing the system against fast moving Theatre and Intermediate Range Ballistic missiles using solid propellants, which behave differently during their boost and terminal phase.

n fact, China’s tests involving exo-atmospheric interception and destruction of target missile have been confirmed by the United States as well. DRDO officials are, meanwhile, comparing the two-layered missile shield system with US Patriot 3 Air Defence Missile System comprising of exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interceptors capable of intercepting and destroying enemy missiles outside the atmosphere and up to 30 km altitude in its different phases.

DRDO has been claiming that the shield capable of intercepting a ballistic missile fired from 2,000 km in its first phase would be installed at two cities with Delhi definitely being one of these.
The phase-II involves interception of ballistic missile with 5,000 km range. The first successful test was carried out in November 2006.

Now we need to know more or this is all BS!?

[vivek_ahuja]

Now we need to know more or this is all BS!?

It sounded bullshit the first time I read it. Sounded even more so the second time.

Nice hit-job on the BMD system on the verge of deployment.

Sounded to me like somebody raised the issue of wanting more realistic tests and this reporter heard: "It doesn't work, cannot hit and is a big sham".

Typical way any biased person would work when given even a shred of information that his/her mind can twist and contort into fitting into their world view.

[member_23360]

seems to be copied directly from prasoon sengupta's blog

[vivek_ahuja]

I wrote out the following comment for the article and sent the same interdependently to the editors. The website says they will post the comment after moderation. Let's see if it actually goes up or not. (Though I won't be surprised if it doesn't!)

I would like to draw your attention to the flight profile taken by the Prithvi missiles during this test. Despite the short range of the Prithvi during a standard flight, it CAN be launched with a different trajectory during a short flight so that it has the same re-entry kinetics as a longer range missile. No point of doing tests otherwise, isn't it?

When you use the phrase "slow moving" in your article, you misdirect your readers into thinking that somehow the tests were made against this slower moving missile and not the real high speed target as intended for the BMD system. This is unfair to both the credibility of your article and DRDO's product and testing procedures.

At the same time I will admit that full scale tests would be preferable, but I also understand that India and USA don't work on the same budget for these things. So unless we adapt our mentality from trying to emulate the USA in every way, it becomes rapidly unfeasible to achieve our goals. You allude to this thought process when you suggest that China's BMD being verified by the US makes it imperative for us to do the same. The USA is not the referee/arbiter in this process. Yet you have made them so for some reason!

I sensed a tone of voice in your article suggesting bias against the DRDO prior to writing this article. If I have misinterpreted your objective here, then I apologize in advance. However, if your goal was to draw attention to the concerns of your sources regarding the validity of the Indian BMD system, I would suggest that you research their claims some more before printing them to the mass media who will naturally draw the same initial conclusions that I did.

Please feel free to contact me if you would like any clarifications on this material.

Regards

-An Aerospace Engineer who works in this field.