MRCA News and Discussion

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 19:47

Please could you care to enumerate:
1. Was India ever offered a partnership (like US offered to some other countries during development of F-35) for F-35?
2. If US had offered just the sale of F-35, by what date (year) could US have started deliveries of F-35 to India?
3. What was the degree of TOT offered vis-à-vis F-35 to India?

What is there is on the net. Just google first and then continue the discussion.

Added l8r:
You will be pleasantly surprised.

Added l8r*2:
The F-35 offer is from LM, and, NOT the US government - which will need to approve the offer

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 19:52

Ajatshatru,

The MRCA discussion can only revolve around what the RFP states. And, none of us have access to the RFP outside of statements made by some vendors.

As far as the F-22 goes, the US has stated they are not willing to sell it to anyone (yet). So, what is so hard to understand in that?

F-35: just google and find otu for yourself and then we can discuss. If you educate yourself then the discussion becomes more meaningful - simple as that. Else we waste a lot of bandwidth saying the same things.

On what is offered to Pakis, etc - it is an issue for Indian leaders to deal with and perhaps Indian citizens too. Not a part of the MRCA deal. (Your concern and arguments have wide support on BR.)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 20:12

OK. Sorry. Let me google for you (I am really good at this. So, NP).

2005 :: India may get US invite for F-35 flight

2005 :: Indian Navy want F-35, not the Super Hornets that were offered

2007 :: Lockheed Martin Presents F-35 For Indian Air Force 126 MRCA Contract

2007 :: US offers F-35 fighters to India

2008 :: The F-35 for India?

LM has offered to set up a line in India.

Also of interest, the IN has approached Boeing for F-18E/F for potential ship based planes (http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3849)

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 14 Sep 2009 20:20

Ajatshatru wrote:
What is there is on the net. Just google first and then continue the discussion.
No.1, George makes a certain assertion yet onus of finding out what he says is true or not lies with me? Mr NRao, Am I right in reaching this conclusion?

We've already had this discussion, a couple of times, in this thread. It gets tiring to repeat everything.

Ajatshatru wrote: 1. Was India ever offered a partnership (like US offered to some other countries during development of F-35) for F-35?

India never asked to join.

Ajatshatru wrote:2. If US had offered just the sale of F-35, by what date (year) could US have started deliveries of F-35 to India?

Too late for the MRCA deadline which is one reason India wasn't interested.

Ajatshatru wrote:3. What was the degree of TOT offered vis-à-vis F-35 to India?

We'll never know since India never seriously pursued it.

The fact remains you claimed that the US had never offered the F-35 to India, and this is demonstrably false.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Sep 2009 20:24

come on elementary mr. watsons.. f22 would neither be accepted nor offered. it would cost something can throw even khan admins into questions.. why would you all think f35 came into existence.. cost was one of the biggest factor of f22, besides its missions and what we can achieve with it, is not required for IAF, per its current requirements.

may be, if chinpak composition becomes too hot to handle, we could rather use them.. i'd focus more on pakfa rather f22.. perhaps, include france into pakfa or EADS.

f22 is out of scope on this thread, and from our requirements.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 20:48

There is not much anyone can do if you do not educate themselves on a topic. The F-35 topic has been there since 2005, there is really nothing new about it.

On ToT, too, the topic is nothing new. It is a well known fact that the US does NOT allow complete ToT. And, even on SOME components (for either the F-16 and F-18) that the US will allow India COMPLETE ToT, India is incapable of absorbing the ToT technologies and therefore unlikely to be able to manufacture such components (this seems to be true in the MKI too).

We have beaten this topic to death for about a year+ now.

And, this problem will exist until India is completely self reliant. Which, to me, it looks like, will not happen for another 10-20 years at least. Technologies will advance much faster than India can keep up with them. And, much to my distress I am beginning to realize that India is horrible in project management and the like - so even with tremendous input of funds and techs they will tend to fail. India, to me, is like a 18 wheeled truck, some wheel totally lack ball bearing, some bearing are worn out and very few are just perfect. And, ALL of us do not care enough to make a difference in ALL fields.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 20:52

Ajatshatru wrote: Yes, of course Mr George....and if I might add....US has never denied anything to India and it is the Indians who have never been able to get their act together in the past so may have missed the bus as far as F-35 partnership etc. is concerned. Right Mr George?

And Mr George, you know what....Indians are so gullible that they would believe anything and everything you say on this forum as gospel truth.

Maybe we need to stop baiting other members if they have an unpopular view
unpopular != incorrect

Ajatshatru wrote: Mr NRao, my heart beats for India (and India's long term interests)....May be you should think of advising some members whose heart beats primarily for US to google first before making certain assertions here and then continue their discussion on BRF?

and to assume that anyone who took the time to join and then post on BR is not interested in India's welfare is a big assumption. One would all be well served to either prove it with irrefutable facts and then let the admins decide or keep the mud slinging to a bare minimum...it is convinient how you call out someone for having a decidedly pro Indo-US stance but not others for having a pro baboo-Natasha...I meant Indo-Russian stance...or an overtly pro Russian stance

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 20:53

NRao wrote:There is not much anyone can do if you do not educate themselves on a topic. The F-35 topic has been there since 2005, there is really nothing new about it.

On ToT, too, the topic is nothing new. It is a well known fact that the US does NOT allow complete ToT. And, even on SOME components (for either the F-16 and F-18) that the US will allow India COMPLETE ToT, India is incapable of absorbing the ToT technologies and therefore unlikely to be able to manufacture such components (this seems to be true in the MKI too).

We have beaten this topic to death for about a year+ now.

And, this problem will exist until India is completely self reliant. Which, to me, it looks like, will not happen for another 10-20 years at least. Technologies will advance much faster than India can keep up with them. And, much to my distress I am beginning to realize that India is horrible in project management and the like - so even with tremendous input of funds and techs they will tend to fail. India, to me, is like a 18 wheeled truck, some wheel totally lack ball bearing, some bearing are worn out and very few are just perfect. And, ALL of us do not care enough to make a difference in ALL fields.

unfortunate, but very very true

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Sep 2009 20:59

^^
Come on man. Do yourself a favour and give it a rest. I am no fan of US policies myself but your posts are ridiculous.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 21:14

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^
Come on man. Do yourself a favour and give it a rest. I am no fan of US policies myself but your posts are ridiculous.

I am glad I am not the only one who feels that way

Ajatshatru wrote: I would certainly give your blanket statement some thought but please do let me know how you came to such a startling conclusion?

reading your posts...
Sir, please relax and contribute instead of judging those who do
humble request...direct and indirectly from multiple board members

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 21:26

Ajatshatru wrote:
it is convinient how you call out someone for having a decidedly pro Indo-US stance but not others for having a pro baboo-Natasha
I would rather find it more 'convenient' to call out to someone who has 'pro-India' stance and pat him/her on the back for such a stance.

Now off from this room for now....

Innocent till proven guilty...
everyone here should be presumed to be pro-India and her interests unless we have irrefutable evidence to the contrary
and till we do...we must keep our suspicions to ourselves and respect everyone and thier views

Thank you sir...look fwd to constructive posts from you in the future

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Sep 2009 21:34

Ajatshatru wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote: Come on man. Do yourself a favour and give it a rest. I am no fan of US policies myself but your posts are ridiculous.
I would certainly give your blanket statement some thought but please do let me know how you came to such a startling conclusion?

I see that you have now resorted to sarcasm. Perhaps you would find unending exchange of sarcasm amusing. I apologize if I do not feel the same way. However, I would indeed give you some reasons for my statement in my earlier post.
You begin your rant by saying that F-22 is not offered to India.

Then you continue to show your ignorance on F-35 issue.
Then when your ignorance is pointed out to you by NRao (in a non offensive manner), you chose to a accuse him of siding against you for no apparent reason.
I could go on endlessly but it would add nothing to the quality of the forum.

@Raveen
Could I urge you not to continue this pointless argument with Ajatshatru? Clearly he is averse to reasoning. Any further argument with him will only degrade the quality of the forum.

PS: I am no fan of US policies myself and SH is perhaps my least favourite among the MMRCA contenders. However, one must desist from blabbering any nonsense to support his argument.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 21:44

Parijat Gaur wrote: @Raveen
Could I urge you not to continue this pointless argument with Ajatshatru? Clearly he is averse to reasoning. Any further argument with him will only degrade the quality of the forum.

PS: I am no fan of US policies myself and SH is perhaps my least favourite among the MMRCA contenders. However, one must desist from blabbering any nonsense to support his argument.

Yes sir, you got it

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2009 22:46

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/ex ... ck-on.html

Prins pointed out that with an admitted 35 per cent of the Gripen being made up by American components and systems, there was no way that the Swedes could trumpet full transfer of technology, simply because a full transfer of technology would mean formal release of the said technology by the US government, which may or may not be forthcoming. "Without formal sanction for technology release, it simply not honest to say you can transfer all technology. It is plainly false," Prins said.

Things are heating up?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Sep 2009 23:09

Ajatshatru,

Read a few pages of this thread, we just had this discussion few days back. It's general courtesy to read a few pages and get into the depth and background of discussion before starting discussion on obvious points. Have fun, don't get emotional.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 14 Sep 2009 23:19

Ajatshatru wrote:
I am glad I am not the only one who feels that way
Oh dear, 'anjaamay gulistan kya hoga'.

Thank you sir...look fwd to constructive posts from you in the future
Thus spoke a foot soldier.

Since you can't keep your word and keep off this thread for some much needed cool off time, I'll keep mine and ignore you

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 Sep 2009 00:56

Amongst the candidates in MRCA competition F-18 is unique in that it also carries a deadly trojen horse with direct link to massa with capabelity to snoop and disrupt Indian of Network Centric infrastructure, and remote control. India should keep it a pole's distance.

Indian Navy is the first one to raise this sensitive issue.

Devil In The Details? Bogey In The Indian Navy's P-8I Aircraft Contract
Wednesday, September 09, 2009

The Indo-US contract for eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaisance & anti-submarine warfare (LRMRASW) aircraft was signed at the beginning of this year, but, according to sources in the Navy, there appear to be some bogeys that seem to have passed the muster of South Block bureaucrats, certainly the ones who signed the deal. With such committed focus on the end user monitoring (EUM) clauses, sources point to a certain other clause in the contract that could spell potential trouble in the future, not just for the P-8I relationship, but others Indo-US contracts as well.

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

There are folks who believe this is precisely what the US government has seen done in contracts with Pakistan's P-3 and F-16 fleet. Could something be amiss or is this paranoia? Has something far more dangerous passed under the radars of South Block?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Sep 2009 01:12

Why wouldn't the rafale and Typhoon not have it??

The same risk exists in varying degrees for every piece of hardware we buy abroad.

All the more reason to get home grown products

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 01:18

Arun_S wrote:Amongst the candidates in MRCA competition F-18 is unique in that it also carries a deadly trojen horse with direct link to massa with capabelity to snoop and disrupt Indian of Network Centric infrastructure, and remote control.

No, that's just someone's paranoid response to standard legalese butt-covering.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Sep 2009 01:34

meaning.. we should be able to draft an agreement such that we can slap liquidated damages for such malicious codes, and devices that should become non functional per buttons and masterlock from supplying nation.

question: the same should be true to other nations as well.

btw, should there be a case already, then why waste time and money supporting a product with such well known caveats.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 01:48

SaiK wrote:question: the same should be true to other nations as well.

Their lawyer's job is to write the agreement as much in their favor as possible. They will naturally disclaim as much liability as you let them get away with.

It is your lawyer's job to force these points to be negotiated out.

If other manufacturer's don't have these disclaimers, it's only because their lawyers aren't as good

SaiK wrote:meaning.. we should be able to draft an agreement such that we can slap liquidated damages for such malicious codes

You should, and if you don't it's only your own fault for not pushing for it.

Lawyers will disclaim anything and everything if you let them. The key is to not let them.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 15 Sep 2009 01:53

...and Lockheed-Martin make their pitch.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/ ... -india.htm

PS - Sorry if this has been posted before

Raghava

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 02:03

Devil In The Details? Bogey In The Indian Navy's P-8I Aircraft Contract
Wednesday, September 09, 2009

The Indo-US contract for eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaisance & anti-submarine warfare (LRMRASW) aircraft was signed at the beginning of this year, but, according to sources in the Navy, there appear to be some bogeys that seem to have passed the muster of South Block bureaucrats, certainly the ones who signed the deal. With such committed focus on the end user monitoring (EUM) clauses, sources point to a certain other clause in the contract that could spell potential trouble in the future, not just for the P-8I relationship, but others Indo-US contracts as well.

According to Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments, the US will be liable for no penalties in the event that any "malicious code" is detected in the software that governs the P-8I's sensors and systems. Malicious code, among other things, could include deliberately embedded bits of software designed to do one or many of a variety of things, which could include encrypted recording of platform usage information -- data that only American inspectors will be able to decrypt during end-user inspections, without making it apparently so. Sound far-fetched. It apparently isn't. Anyway, the point is, if Indian engineers are lucky enough to detect the malicious software (in some fortuitous spasm of counter-intelligence), then as per the contract on paper, there will be no penalties. All the US will have to do is to modify the hardware or software and remove the malicious code, with no other liabilities.

There are folks who believe this is precisely what the US government has seen done in contracts with Pakistan's P-3 and F-16 fleet. Could something be amiss or is this paranoia? Has something far more dangerous passed under the radars of South Block?

Aroor's malicious writing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 02:06

IIRC, when one buys computers from say SUN or IBM they also have "legalese" that tries to defend themselves.

It is not too late for IN to reject the P-8I. And, tell the US they are not interested in F-18s and the E-2Ds.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Sep 2009 02:18

what makes us think, that our current a/cs don't carry malicious codes/device that communicates important strategic details to other nations.

I am off the thought, that its a challenge to find one, and get engaging. The side effect, is getting a better platform for the future.

All things can be claimed, and shall remain as complaints, but only proven guilty by proof/judgement.

Our mindsets have to change to be in the bed with P1.. use it for our gains, rather have to seek a perfect pure platform with no bugs. The ones we have kills our men, while others may relay.

net effect, its left to our intelligence.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 02:25

SaiK,

That article is written by Aroor, in which he speculates. IF that speculation is correct and causes some concern (which is perfectly acceptable) then the IN should react. IF IN does NOT react, then there should be a reason for the non-reaction.

I do not want or accept malicious code in a US delivered product of any kind. But, who knows what is the minds of the IN/IAF/IA? Perhaps they feel that the US breaks into their communications so often that it really does not matter. Or they feel that IN is part of the 1000 ship navy (which is my gut feel) and the trade off is to accept malicious code until it is found.

Besides what has India been doing for 60 years? The situation is only going to get worse. Technology WILL out pace the speed at which India makes decisions, Indian R&D capabilities and Indian threat perceptionS.

Either enjoy it or do something about it without complaining. The prior seems to be the accept method for the time being.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 02:30

Ajatshatru wrote:That is the second part (legalese), care to first comment on the possibility of someone deliberately embedding malicious code part....

The possibility exists whenever you buy from a 3rd party, no matter what guarantees they give you.

The French are notorious for their blatant corporate espionage.

Russia has some very hard-nosed people working for them.

Sweden, well it's always cute innocent-looking kid you would never suspect who is the guilty party

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 02:31

NRao wrote:That article is written by Aroor, in which he speculates. IF that speculation is correct and causes some concern (which is perfectly acceptable) then the IN should react.

IF something is found, then there will be hell to pay.

But it useless to speculate until something is actually found, because I seriously doubt any of the bidders would jeopardize their status with India by pulling such a stunt.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Sep 2009 02:32

Raveen and Ajatshatru,
Please take you games elsewhere. No responding to each other's post period.

ramana

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 02:37

GeorgeWelch wrote: IF something is found, then there will be hell to pay.

But it useless to speculate until something is actually found, because I seriously doubt any of the bidders would jeopardize their status with India by pulling such a stunt.

On the contrary "Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments" should protect the US from this payment. All GoI/IAF can do is turn blue, kick the LM/Boeing rep out of India or something of that sort. And, I do nto see it becoming a legal issue. The US may give 10 tons of Uranium for free ................. whatever.

I doubt they would have something really malicious.

Besides, specially the IN, has been working rather closely with the USN for about 10 years now. I think if it were not for the commies in the last govt that Indian armed forces would be a LOT more closer to the US armed forces (NOT GOTUS).

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 02:47

NRao wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote: IF something is found, then there will be hell to pay.
On the contrary "Section 6.1 under Article 28 of the contract between the two governments" should protect the US from this payment. All GoI/IAF can do is turn blue, kick the LM/Boeing rep out of India or something of that sort.

India can do a lot more than turn blue. Even if they can't get penalties under the contract, they can make life very difficult for the US if they want.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 02:48

As an example?

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 03:36

NRao wrote:As an example?

India will be one of the largest military markets in the world for the next several years. Locking the US out would hurt.

India imports a lot of stuff from the US. Slap tariffs or outright ban.

If you really want to get nasty then you start supporting oppositional states likes Venezuela.

Countries have ways of making each other pay, so the lack of a specific penalty in the contract doesn't mean a whole lot in the end.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Sep 2009 03:39

Ajatshatru wrote:Two wrongs make a right?

My point was that you can't fully trust any outside vendors.

To assume only the US could do such a thing and all the others are as pure as the wind-driven snow would be foolish.

If you say "we shouldn't buy from the US because they MIGHT insert malicious code", then you have to say the same thing for France . . . and Sweden . . . and Russia . . . etc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 04:09

GW,

I think I will accept the thinking that the US will not venture down the malicious code path.

It really is not worth it for either nation to try anything stupid. Besides I would think If the US really wants to get into Indian stuff, they can. JMTs.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 15 Sep 2009 04:21

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Ajatshatru wrote:That is the second part (legalese), care to first comment on the possibility of someone deliberately embedding malicious code part....
The possibility exists whenever you buy from a 3rd party, no matter what guarantees they give you.

The French are notorious for their blatant corporate espionage.

Russia has some very hard-nosed people working for them.

Sweden, well it's always cute innocent-looking kid you would never suspect who is the guilty party

there is no way one can find it out if US has malicious code has been embedded into the systems without going through the whole system and checking for any malicious code. The code can be even inserted at hardware level, which is more or less impossible to detect. And why would US let go of this chance if it has the capability to monitor the usage of the weapons by India???

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 15 Sep 2009 04:32

NRao wrote:GW,

I think I will accept the thinking that the US will not venture down the malicious code path.

It really is not worth it for either nation to try anything stupid. Besides I would think If the US really wants to get into Indian stuff, they can. JMTs.

Ummm ... well ... their track record is not all that inspiring ...
Bugs On Jiang's Plane? Shush

Here's what is known: Back in 2000, Jiang ordered a $120 million Boeing 767 to serve as China's Air Force One. The decision to buy an American plane earned him criticism at home, in online chat rooms and on university campuses {shades of current discussion }. When the bugging story broke in the Western press--the sources apparently were Chinese military officers--Jiang's embarrassing little plane problem suddenly became a mortifying security debacle. During the entire refitting in San Antonio, Texas, the plane was guarded by no fewer than 20 People's Liberation Army soldiers. "If the P.L.A. allowed the bugging to happen, they failed on a massive level," says a Western military attache in Beijing. But the incident may be more about corruption than ineptitude. The military sources who leaked the story claim that the Chinese side siphoned off $20 million in the deal.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Sep 2009 05:34

g.kacha,

That is very old news. Besides MMS has got one of them too. Perhaps Indian snoops have had time to snoop too?

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 15 Sep 2009 05:45

NRao wrote:g.kacha,

That is very old news. Besides MMS has got one of them too. Perhaps Indian snoops have had time to snoop too?

NRao ... I agree that this is old news .. but there is an older saying .. "A leopard can never change its spots" ...
The point of my posting that article was to highlight that any country which supplies advanced tech can put systems in place which can be inmical to the end-user's interests. Just so happens, that US has a proven track record on this ...

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 15 Sep 2009 06:13

GeorgeWelch wrote: If you say "we shouldn't buy from the US because they MIGHT insert malicious code", then you have to say the same thing for France . . . and Sweden . . . and Russia . . . etc.

With all due respect to the Americans, as of now we have not heard of a single case of a bug been deliberately left by the Russians or the French in their equipments. However the same cannot be said about the Americans. For a second let me assume that even the Russians and the French have been 'bugging' their equipments, even in that case we can't categorise them with USA because unlike USA, they have been more consistent in their approach and efforts towards having a healthy relationship with India. USSR/Russia has been our tried and tested friend for many decades. After the Pokharan blasts, even the French stood by us. But what was America doing at this time? As far as I remember, it was busy imposing sanctions against us.

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and Pakistan then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of the Russians or the French than the Americans, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in Pakistan and who have been feeding Pakistan as their own baby.