Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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vina
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

Yes. A nice TV/Documentary program talking about the perils of sorcerer's apprentices toying around with things they don't understand.

That apart, two things that needs repetition, something I have been telling again and again in BRF for a long long time.

1) It is Social STUDIES not Social SCIENCES . Just because you do math, it doesn't become a science.Derman talked about that exactly. How in Physics, if you come up with a theory, and for it to be right, it has to be right, if you repeat it after 10 mins, after 10 hours after some random hrs, in the north pole , in the other end of the universe /wherever. If it's isn't it is not a real theory!

2) Paul Wilmott said that in different words . If Newton or Einstein came up with a "law" it is a "law". When e-Con-O-Mists come up with a theory, it is more a "framework" an "idea" which might work , might not work and then they go and dump a lot of math on top thinking that the math gives it scientific rigor. It does not. So always , always treat the "social studies" with huge dollops of skepticism (even science cannot be always right, it is right in a postulated set of circumstances..) . In fact, it is scare when you think that of all the e-Con-O-Mix, it is Financial economics, that with the huge amount of data that gets generated and disseminated easily (in other fields, getting data itself is a mammoth exercise and cost) and more easily amenable to hypothesis testing , one boggles the imagination on the other e-Con areas with similar math larded on top and to think that these guys get to do "super babugiri" and basically run the world is even scarier.

If the quants take the blame for the 2008 crash (however remote), how come I never see ANY Indian ISI/DSE/JNU/Ding-Dong type EVER take responsibility and own up for the massive under performance (in the pre liberalization growth rate as per the NYT article that got published on Gurgaon a few days ago, it would take 64 YEARS to double the GDP (from the pathetically low base), while after liberalization it takes 10years!) . That ding-dong math model was a bigger catastrophe as far as India was concerned. Why no discussion on that? Why no owning up, naming and shaming of that?
Last edited by vina on 12 Jun 2011 09:58, edited 1 time in total.
Raja Bose
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Raja Bose »

vina mullah,

After interacting with a good two dozen or so such alchemists, I found that the zimble truth is none of these quants, I-bankers, e-con-no-mists or related peddlers really know why by Mo's beard the market behaves the way it does. For very short periods under very specific constraints, their TFTA models might work and that is fine. But the problem is they don't know why the models work which consequently means that they don't know when the models won't work! And that is the crux of the problem.

And even worse, they blame the math! Don't blame the tool if you do not know how to use it. GIGO.

Ofcourse this practice of mathematical eye candy is not limited to e-con but can be seen massively in Comp. Sc. and EE. Heck, I remember one pee-chaddi student (under a very top desi prof. in CMU) who was my co-author, insisting that we should try to make the paper look more mathematical with fancier greek symbols and what-not. :rotfl: Apparently he didn't like my simpler mathematical solution since it was so easy to understand.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

As a former practitioner with a front seat view of the high table (my timing is generally off by an year or two), what Wilmott and Derman said was perfectly true. But finally the decisions are taken by the traders, the jocks. As one of them said, if they do not like what the quant says, the quants go back and fix their models. They are some what like the highly paid consultants hired by the C-Suite to rubber-stamp their decisions and become the fall-guy if things fail.

The underlying problem was greed; greed where the profits were all yours to keep while the losses were other people losses. The group where I was at, was led by a former football player, who till a few weeks before the collapse was still negotiating with the firm that his take of the loot should go up to 50%! They had been minting money and were sneaky enough to sell a perpetual money machine (i.e. buy a perpetual insurance policy) to some unsuspecting money mangers. They were so successful with that deal that they did not see anything going wrong. What did this particular group in was their greed, where they tried to offset the premium payments on their perpetual insurance policy by selling some less expensive insurance on a MUCH larger (5-6x) amount of bonds whic they felt will not go bad. Within a few months of doing that they realized that they have lost so much that the firm would have to run to the Chinese for more equity capital to survive.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

The King of Non-Productive Debt

By Doug Noland June 10, '11 (PrudentBear.com)

There is important confirmation of the “bear” thesis to discuss. But, as usual, let’s first set the backdrop:

The world is in the midst of history’s greatest Credit Bubble. A dysfunctional global financial system essentially operates without mechanisms to regulate the quantity and quality of debt issuance. In response to severe banking system impairment and fiscal problems in the early-nineties, the Greenspan Fed helped nurture a Credit system shift to nontraditional marketable debt. The bank loan was largely replaced by mortgage-backed securities (MBS), asset-backed securities (ABS), GSE debt instruments, derivatives and a multitude of sophisticated “Wall Street” Credit instruments. The Credit expansion grew exponentially, while becoming increasingly detached from production and economic wealth-creation (the boom, in fact, exacerbated deindustrialization).

The Fed implemented momentous changes in monetary management to bolster the new “marketable debt” Credit system structure, including “pegging” short-term interest rates; serial interventions to assure “liquid and continuous markets;” and adopting an “asymmetrical” policy framework that disregarded asset inflation/Bubbles, while guaranteeing the marketplace an aggressive policy response to any risk of market illiquidity or financial/economic instability. Massive expansion of marketable debt coupled with a highly-accommodative policy backdrop incited incredible growth in speculation and leveraging. Over time, trends in U.S. Credit, policy and speculative excess took root around the world.

Global markets suffered a devastating crisis of confidence in 2008. The failure of Lehman Brothers, in particular, set off a panic throughout global markets for private-sector debt, especially Credit intermediated through sophisticated Wall Street structures. Unprecedented government intervention reversed the downward spiral in Credit and economic output. Especially in the U.S., Trillions of private debt instruments were put under the umbrella of government backing. Meanwhile, Trillions more were acquired by the Fed, ECB and global central bankers in the greatest market intervention and debt monetization in history. Policy making – fiscal and monetary, at home and abroad – unleashed the “Global Government Finance Bubble”.

Currency market distortions have been instrumental in sowing financial fragility and economic instability. Chiefly because of the dollar’s special “reserve currency” status, U.S. Credit system excesses have been accommodated for way too long. Global central banks have been willing to accumulate Trillions of our I.O.U.s, providing a critical liquidity backstop for the marketplace. Highly liquid and orderly currency markets have been instrumental in ensuring a liquid Credit market, which has provided our fiscal and monetary policymakers extraordinary flexibility to inflate our Credit, our asset markets and our economy. Meanwhile, massive U.S. Current Account Deficits and other financial flows have inundated the world, creating liquidity excess and unfettered domestic Credit expansion throughout the world. Global imbalances, having mounted for decades, went “parabolic” over the past few years.

I would argue strongly that the euro currency regime owes much of its great success to the structurally weak U.S. dollar. For all the flaws and potential pitfalls of a common European currency, the euro has from day one looked awfully appealing standing side-by-side with the dollar. And the buoyant euro created powerful market distortions that promoted Credit excess throughout the region, especially in Europe’s periphery (Greece and the so-called “PIIGS” would never have enjoyed the capacity to push borrowing to such extremes had they been issuing debt denominated in their own currencies). The weak dollar and strong euro – along with the perception that the Eurozone and ECB would never tolerate a default by one of its sovereigns – were instrumental in promoting profligate borrowing, lending, spending and speculating.

I have recently turned more focused on differentiating between “productive” and “non-productive” debt. This is an important analytical distinction – although, by nature, a challenging gray area for Macro Credit Analysis. At the time of its creation, there might actually be little difference from a systemic perspective whether a new financial claim is created in the process of financing real investment or an asset purchase or, instead, to fund a government stimulus program. In each case, new purchasing power is released into the system. The key is that the new Credit stimulates economic “output” through increased spending, incomes and/or asset inflation. Especially during the halcyon Credit boom days, the markets will pay scant attention to the assets underpinning the new debt instruments (particularly when policymakers are actively intervening and distorting markets!).

However, don’t be fooled and don’t become too complacent. At some inevitable - if not predictable - point the markets will care tremendously whether a Credit system is sound or not. Regrettably, the current era’s (unrestrained global finance, structurally-unsound dollar, “activist” policymaking, rampant global speculation, etc.) unique capacity for sustaining non-productive debt booms poses major problems. In short, the booms last too long and activist policymaking ensures they end up afflicting the heart of Credit systems. These protracted Bubbles are resolved through problematic crises of confidence, debt revulsion and economic restructuring.

First of all, booms create a fragile mountain of debt not supported by underlying wealth-creating capacity. Second, Credit Bubbles inflate various price levels throughout the economy, creating systemic dependencies requiring ongoing debt and speculative excess. And, third, the boom in non-productive debt will tend to foster consumption and malinvestment at the expense of sound investment in productive capacity. When the boom eventually falters, market revulsion to unsound debt, the economy’s addiction to uninterrupted Credit expansion, and the lack of capacity for real wealth creation within the (“Bubble”) real economy ensure a very severe crisis and prolonged adjustment period. These dynamics become critically important as soon as a government (finally) loses its capacity to perpetuate the Bubble (i.e. Greece, Portugal, Ireland, etc.)

As a crisis unfolds, the markets eventually must come to grips with a very harsh reality: There will be denial and it will take some time to really sink in - but the markets will come to recognize that too little of the existing debt is backed by real wealth. Non-productive Credit booms are, after all, essentially “Ponzi Finance” schemes. Worse yet, only huge additional injections of debt/purchasing power will hold economic collapse at bay. Fundamentally, non-productive Credit booms foment deleterious effects upon the economic structure – that only compound over time. As we have witnessed with Greece and Ireland, “bailout” costs can quickly skyrocket to meaningful percentages of GDP - and will keep growing.


And once stunned by the downside of “Ponzi Finance,” markets will be keen to mitigate risk exposure to the next episode. This is the essence of “contagion effects.” Especially in interlocking global markets dominated by leveraged speculation and trend-following trading strategies, de-risking and de-leveraging in one market tend to quickly translate to risk aversion and faltering liquidity throughout the marketplace. Markets perceived as liquidity abundant can almost overnight be transformed to liquidity-challenged. This dynamic went to devastating extremes during the 2008 crisis – only to begin mount a resurgence with last year’s Greek debt crisis and contagion.

It has been my thesis that last year’s aggressive market interventions – QE2, the European fiscal and monetary “bailouts,” and massive global central bank monetization – incited a highly speculative Bubble environment vulnerable to negative liquidity surprises. And now we’re down to the final few weeks of QE2. The European bailout strategy is unwinding, with little possibility of near-term stabilization. Meanwhile, the US economy has downshifted in spite of massive fiscal and monetary stimulus. Risk and uncertainty abound; de-risking and de-leveraging are making a comeback.

Bloomberg went with the headline, “Fed’s Maiden Lane Sales Trigger Bank Stampede to Dump Risk.” At The Wall Street Journal, it was “As ‘Junk’ Bonds Fall, Some Blame the Fed.” Both articles noted the deterioration in pricing for a broadening list of Credit market instruments, including junk bonds, subprime mortgage securities, and various Credit derivatives. And while the Fed’s liquidation of an old AIG portfolio is surely a drag on some prices, I believe the rapidly changing liquidity backdrop is more indicative of global de-risking dynamics. This is providing important confirmation of the bear thesis.

here are fascinating dynamics at work throughout our Credit market. Arguably, the U.S. is the King of Non-Productive Debt. In the wake of a historic expansion of non-productive household debt comes a Bubble in government (Treasury and related) Credit. The assets underpinning too much of the U.S. debt mountain are of suspect quality, although this hasn’t mattered recently. And in true Bubble fashion, the marketplace has increasingly gravitated to Treasury debt as the “Greek” crisis escalates and contagion effects gather momentum. The corporate debt market has enjoyed extreme bullish sentiment – along with waves of investment and speculative inflows. While the corporate balance sheet appears sound, I would counter that corporate earnings and cash flows have been artificially inflated by unsustainable federal deficits. In particular, the bubbling junk bond market would appear vulnerable to the deteriorating liquidity backdrop.

Elsewhere, there is the murky world of subprime derivatives and such. This bastion of speculative excess certainly enjoyed the fruits of policy-induced reflation. But not only has housing performed dismally, there are now the market issues of de-risking and liquidity uncertainties. Today from the WSJ: “Since April, prices of many subprime mortgage securities have declined between 15% and 20%... The decline in subprime mortgage bonds accelerated in the last two weeks…” From Bloomberg this morning: “Declines in credit-default swaps indexes used to protect against losses on subprime housing debt and commercial mortgages accelerated this month, reaching almost 20% in the past five weeks..” Also from Bloomberg: “Default swaps on the six largest U.S. banks have gained an average of 19.4 bps to 137.2 bps since May 31…

In conclusion, support seemed abundant this week for the thesis which holds that the U.S. Credit system and economy are much more vulnerable to contagion effects than is commonly appreciated. Treasury and dollar rallies appear constructive for system liquidity. In reality, it is likely that both markets are heavily impacted by speculative trading (speculators, in various forms, have used Treasury and dollar short positions to finance higher-returning holdings). Strength in the Treasury market and the dollar are indicative of – and place additional pressure on – the unwind of leveraged trades. And it is when the speculator community finds itself back on its heels and backing away from risk that liquidity becomes a critical market issue.

http://prudentbear.com/index.php/credit ... t_id=10541
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by krisna »

International Monetary Fund Hit by Cyber Attack, Stays Tight-Lipped
Unknown attackers have hit the International Monetary Fund, but there's been no indication as to what—if anything—the hackers managed to get their hands on. According to the New York Times, computer experts have labeled the attack "large and sophisticated," a breach in the fund's security so severe that even IMF's partner, the World Bank, severed the data connection between the two institutions in a precautionary measure.
The IMF presents a juicy target for hackers, as it contains a wealth of confidential financial information related to the fiscal dealings of various nations. This includes information related to countries' bailout programs as well as background communications between national leaders attempting to negotiate their way through their countries' financial crises. As one unidentified individual said in an interview with the New York Times, IMF's information could be considered, "political dynamite in many countries."
wiki leaks in IMF in the offing!!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

somnath wrote:
Neshant wrote:This is classical keynesian textbook snake oil that is wrecking the economy
Which textbook did you pick thi up from?
Its in any keynesian textbook. Just look up the the nonsense about "excessive savings". In recent times, pilfering "excessive savings" and trasfer of that wealth from savers to scamming bankers to backstop their idiotic gambling debts has been pitched by keynesian economics as the solution. The solution to what?
somnath wrote:Seriously, your understadning of these issues is so shallow (this isnt the only post) that you need to start reading 100 stuff before going on your rants..
You are obviously confused and got lost in the jungle of slick financing & high rolling talk of con men economists. The reality is economics and money is simple. Its not a con game of fancy jargon, armani suits and paper shuffling requiring some wise oracle at the top to shepherd the real economy through. It sure as hell does not need some guy printing money for the greater good when really he's just printing it for his insolvent cronies.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Not that I ever thought Bernanke ever stepped off the printing press & stock market rigging, but I suspect QE3 will be "officially" launched closer to the election if the stock market starts tanking.

Bernanke is saving QE3 for later - if and when Obama's poll numbers begin to slip on account of the crashing stock market. The last thing he wants to see is Ron Paul getting elected. He'll be out of a job!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Lol. Some guy is taking the Federal Reserve to court.

Not that he has a prayer of getting anywhere with these fraudsters but its a valiant attempt at exposing their money printing racket.

http://web.me.com/scottbeach/Scott_Beac ... nta_2.html
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

interesting inflation vs deflation debate between Peter Schiff and Robert Prechter from late 2010.

part 1 :



part 2 :



part 3 :



part 4 :

vina
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vina »

Neshant wrote:In recent times, pilfering "excessive savings" and trasfer of that wealth from savers to scamming bankers to backstop their idiotic gambling debts has been pitched by keynesian economics as the solution. The solution to what?
.. ..
It sure as hell does not need some guy printing money for the greater good when really he's just printing it for his insolvent cronies.
I have to agree with that part. See, despite all claims of having coming out of the meltdown unscathed , the two biggest "winners" in that (both bet against MBS /had a net short/whatever you believe) were saved by the US Gov bailout. It is not as if they managed all the risks. In fact, much of the $80b or so paid out to AIG flowed to the counterparties WITHOUT A HAIRCUT , principally Goldman (how much as it, $12b/$15?) . What if AIG had been allowed to sink like Lehman was ? Goldman sure as hell would have gone down under (okay Douche Bank would have survived, but been greviously wounded).

And what happens with all the cash that got printed by the Fed. Did they backstop the home owners, and bailed out the mortgage mess directly ? Sure as hell no. They went and bailed out the banks who rebuilt the balance sheets with ultra low cash and went and foreclosed on the homeowners! Nice !

All smokes and mirrors show only. Today's NYT has an article about how Obamba has gone back, hat in hand ,to Wall St to raise funding for his next presidential campaign, and sent out dinner invites to the banks , hedge funds and other fat cats. Well, there are no free lunches ! With this goes the hope in hell that there will be any meaningful structural reform in the shadow banking system that rewards the banks with profits and socialize the huge losses (and immense pain on the average Joe) from the gambling with hare brained math models and make believe e-Con-o-comic theories!

Well, what goes my father's . I will dart in and out every now and then and pick up my teeny weeny piece (to each according to his needs , innit?) from the feeding frenzy and hopefully squirrel it away beyond the shenanigans with the currency of the baboons and mantris (both in desh and in bidesh) . Just doing the Lord's work I suppose.

Jai Ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by kmkraoind »

Lockheed to lay off 8 percent of workforce
With a tough economy and the federal government cutting back on defense spending, Lockheed Martin Space Systems Co. Tuesday said it plans to lay off about 8 percent of its workforce by year-end. The company expects to lay off about 1,200 workers, mostly from middle-management positions, at first through voluntary separation. The greatest impact is expected at three of the company's locations: its Waterton Canyon facility in suburban Denver and facilities in Sunnyvale, Calif., and the Delaware Valley region in Pennsylvania.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... dings.html
China increases holdings of US Treasury securities
China, the biggest buyer of U.S. Treasury debt, boosted its holdings in April, the first increase after five straight declines.The Treasury Department said Wednesday that China increased its holdings by $7.6 billion to $1.15 trillion.Total foreign holdings of Treasury securities rose 0.2 percent to $4.49 trillion.Japan, the second largest buyer of U.S. debt, trimmed its holdings slightly by $1 billion to $906.9 billion. There had been concerns that the March 11 earthquake and tsunami would lead Japan to sharply reduce its purchases to use the money for reconstruction
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Airavat »

With its credit rating deep in junk status, Greece is being kept afloat by the EU and IMF bailout, but will need additional support to cover financing gaps next year as high interest rates will prevent it from tapping the bond market next year, contrary to what the original bailout agreement had predicted.

On Monday night, Standard & Poor's slashed Greece's rating from B to CCC, dropping it to the very bottom of the 131 states that have a sovereign debt rating. That suggests Greece's creditors are less likely to get their money back than those of Pakistan, Ecuador or Jamaica.

USA Today
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

I'm pretty sure that french woman Lagarde will get to be IMF chief. Europe is plugging her and soon America (which is pretending to be neutral) will also vote for her.

This will happen after she is IMF chief :

1) She will rubber stamp all IMF loans to Greece & PIGS.
2) The money will go straight to german & french banks who are owed money by Greece.
3) Greece will later default on the IMF loans.
4) Taxpayers of the world (esp developing countries) will be left holding the bag.

I'm 100% sure US will go along with this as US banks are in the firing line having sold CDS on Greek debt. The suckers are countries like India & China who pay a portion of the IMF bill but will watch their money go down a rat hole. No way will stringent loan conditions be imposed on the PIGS as are imposed on Africa and as were imposed on India during the tough economic times.

Thus is the scam of countries getting their cronies elected to international financial institution. This is a SIGN of things to come.

Lagarde Takes IMF Campaign to China After Failing to Win India Endorsement
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-0 ... china.html
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Airavat »

Europe's Lehman moment looms

Moody’s Investors Service said it may downgrade BNP Paribas SA and two other big French banks because of their investments in Greece. The collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. in September 2008 caused credit markets worldwide to freeze as investors fled all but the safest government debt. “The probability of a eurozone Lehman moment is increasing,” said Neil Mackinnon, an economist at VTB Capital in London and a former U.K. Treasury official. “The markets have moved from simply pricing in a high probability of a Greek debt default to looking at a scenario of it becoming disorderly and of contagion spreading to other economies like Portugal, like Ireland, and maybe Spain, Italy and Belgium.”

Markets were roiled yesterday as Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou said he would name a new government and call a vote of confidence in Parliament as he seeks to pressure rebel lawmakers to back an austerity plan that would secure a new bailout. The MSCI World (MXWO) Index fell a further 1.1 percent today, while the Swiss franc rose to a record against the euro. Papandreou needs to clinch a parliamentary vote on a 78 billion-euro ($110 billion) five-year package of budget cuts and asset sales by July to ensure the country receives a new EU aid package to avoid the euro-area’s first default.

German lenders were the biggest foreign owners of Greek government bonds with $22.7 billion in holdings last year, according to data compiled by the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland. French banks, which led the group of Greek creditors with overall claims amounting to $56.7 billion, trailed their German peers on sovereign debt with $15 billion, according to the June report from the BIS.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Put a china man in charge of Greece's finances and within 5 yrs Greeks will be 10 inches slimmer around the waist and in better financial shape. They'll be as productive & efficient as Germans at 1/2 the cost after being worked hard at sweat shop wages by the chinese. Its hard, but it may be Greece's only hope - if indeed Greece intends to pay back their loan. If not may as well default now.

The Chinese have the know how to squeeze blood from a rock when it comes to driving down costs. Chinese managers sent to Africa to run plantations and factories are already working the brothers there to death.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

not just greece, but a lot of east and south european countries + outliers like iceland and ireland need to adopt confuscian values and chinese work ethics. they do not produce the original high value goods of say italy, france or germany but just got pulled along in the industrial revolution and x-border trade in europe to comfortable per-capita income levels...used to sit on the machan and laugh at us monkeys down in the forest floor below...trying to gather nuts and fruits and eke out a living....now the tree is hollow and cannot support their fat well fed bellies and indolent work cultures...either they slim down and work hard or the tree crashes.

its their only hope of maintaining somewhere akin to their current cushy standard of living.

else its a long and painful way to the bottom of the dung heap.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Altair »

Neshant wrote:Put a china man in charge of Greece's finances and within 5 yrs Greeks will be 10 inches slimmer around the waist and in better financial shape. They'll be as productive & efficient as Germans at 1/2 the cost after being worked hard at sweat shop wages by the chinese. Its hard, but it may be Greece's only hope - if indeed Greece intends to pay back their loan. If not may as well default now.

The Chinese have the know how to squeeze blood from a rock when it comes to driving down costs. Chinese managers sent to Africa to run plantations and factories are already working the brothers there to death.
Why China man? Why not a desi? Indian masters are just as tough when to work people to death. India survives because majority of Indian population makes a honest living and are hardworking people. lets not undersell ourselves. We are just as hard workers as the Chinese. perhaps even smart workers.
Western economies are fundamentally flawed. In the pretext of free economy, they have opened the door to economic hell.The leveraged trading business of derivatives has completely bankrupted the west of any hard work potential. Add to that the "credit swaps" and other exotic derivatives blossoming. Its just like drugs.Once a person gets used to easy money it becomes very hard to make him do the hard work again. We are truly near an economic black hole and we do not know it yet or we are simply ignoring it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Folks, I have a pooch..is there a way this on-going economic mess and upcoming bigger settlement mess can be leveraged to buy some soverign real estate? Considering the population explosion we have in our part of the world, it will be better to buy some at rock bottom prices via some WB/IMF/UN involvement and develop "little Indias" like most white nations have them at various place off the map.

not only from strategic interests perspective, but from tourism and employment perspective this type transaction will be of immense help. We have seen economic/employment/income misalignment addressed in the last 2-3 decades, now the time to address geographic misalignment between first and emerging worlds.

Are governments thinking along these lines (apart from islands in greece there isn't much in press along these lines)? Are there precedents lik these? Why doesn't India float these ideas (because there is no reason why we should not float this idea and enter into such transactions)?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Folks, I have a pooch..is there a way this on-going economic mess and upcoming bigger settlement mess can be leveraged to buy some soverign real estate? Considering the population explosion we have in our part of the world, it will be better to buy some at rock bottom prices via some WB/IMF/UN involvement and develop "little Indias" like most white nations have them at various place off the map
At an individual investment level, its a great idea..A lot of people have been turned on to the idea of investing in "physical assets" since the crisis..Why, the Oracle himself made his last mega bet on a highly "physical" asset! If you are buying RE of any type though, it should be either US or Asia - action in the next 20-25 years would be there..

But as a strategic tool, its no use, in fact counterprodictive...Real Estate of any type (overground or underground) is immovable asset (unlike even industrial units, that can be relocated), and finally belongs to the sovereign...And too much foreign ownership of it makes the host country extremely jittery about the buyers intentions...With lots of unintended consequences...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Satya_anveshi »

somnath wrote:But as a strategic tool, its no use, in fact counterprodictive...Real Estate of any type (overground or underground) is immovable asset (unlike even industrial units, that can be relocated), and finally belongs to the sovereign...And too much foreign ownership of it makes the host country extremely jittery about the buyers intentions...With lots of unintended consequences...
Somnath ji,

At the individual level, the impact won't be much to affect reasonably wider base of population unless done at a mega fund level and *make* the borrowing countries adopt our SEZs type models where we can do business in those nations, deploy human resources and develop checks and balances to secure our assets. Over time these assets will foster deeper relationships and enable projecting our soft power.

But my interest is at sovereign level...when I look at canada and australia (yes, they are not basket cases yet) for example, I feel like constipated looking at their RE and the disparity relative to population...the concept of "sovereign" is pretty new in some of these cases and does not have a good historical basis. There should be a way to redefine and develop flexibility around it and hence the mention of involvement from multilateral orgs like WB/IMF/UN to provide the same.

Ultimately, as our economic engine becomes more efficient and effective (relative to others), we should explore and expand to sustain and prolong our interest and influence. We were at the other end of the stick all these years and there could be window of opportunity for us to play a different role. Debt “write off” is a luxury we couldn’t afford and so why do these nations be allowed without too much penalty and thereby allowing them to continue the charade.

For the current lot of investors in the trouble nations, this proposal may be better than asking them to take a full haircut. As for the troubled countries themselves, they can continue with their debt binge for a little while longer..what of the far off islands/places..let Indians come and setup their homes. It is tempting to say this as economic counterpart of Alexander mission in reverse.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

http://noisyroom.net/blog/2011/06/18/ru ... overnance/
Russia and China’s New World Order: Chinese President Calls for Global Governance
Watch the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5pxz2MS ... r_embedded
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

But my interest is at sovereign level...when I look at canada and australia (yes, they are not basket cases yet) for example, I feel like constipated looking at their RE and the disparity relative to population...the concept of "sovereign" is pretty new in some of these cases and does not have a good historical basis. There should be a way to redefine and develop flexibility around it and hence the mention of involvement from multilateral orgs like WB/IMF/UN to provide the same.

Ultimately, as our economic engine becomes more efficient and effective (relative to others), we should explore and expand to sustain and prolong our interest and influence. We were at the other end of the stick all these years and there could be window of opportunity for us to play a different role. Debt “write off” is a luxury we couldn’t afford and so why do these nations be allowed without too much penalty and thereby allowing them to continue the charade.
Every success carries within it the seeds of its own destruction. The goras conquered the world and genocided the natives of NorthAm and Oz, sure. And tried it on some other places less succesfully though. But seems like the goras are breeding themselves out of contention for continued world dominator status. Whereas in 1900 every 4th person in the world was gora, now every 10th is so. In Oz, going by a article I read in the mainstream press a day or so ago, the number of Asian born in Aus. will overtake that of the gora born this year itself.

Sure, its much nicer to fade away by an essentially voluntary process of stopping reproduction in favor of recreation like the goras are currently doing rather than be violently ethnically cleansed like the goras of yore did to the aborigines etc, but end result from nature's standpoint is a reduction in ethnic kinship amongst a dwindling population. I certainly expect fireworks when muslim pop in parts of oirope starts rivaling the native one. Time will tell, we wait and see. What choice is there, anyway, eh?

P.S. gora==caucasian, for the Yindi challenged.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Ambar »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Folks, I have a pooch..is there a way this on-going economic mess and upcoming bigger settlement mess can be leveraged to buy some soverign real estate? Considering the population explosion we have in our part of the world, it will be better to buy some at rock bottom prices via some WB/IMF/UN involvement and develop "little Indias" like most white nations have them at various place off the map.

not only from strategic interests perspective, but from tourism and employment perspective this type transaction will be of immense help. We have seen economic/employment/income misalignment addressed in the last 2-3 decades, now the time to address geographic misalignment between first and emerging worlds.

Are governments thinking along these lines (apart from islands in greece there isn't much in press along these lines)? Are there precedents lik these? Why doesn't India float these ideas (because there is no reason why we should not float this idea and enter into such transactions)?
Apart from the immigration rules esp. in US that'll ensure there is no major surgical transplant of India into mainland US, any strategic importance of a ethnic/regional "mini townships" cannot be large considering "chinatowns" have existed around the world for centuries now. It'll lead new immigrants to further alienate themselves from their adapted nation and its culture. Prime examples are chinatowns, tower hamlets in London with south asian muslims, AnnArbor,MI with ME population etc. To put it brusquely, "ghetto-ization" has no strategic importance. To impress upon decision makers in west, you need someone to do our bidding at the higher echelons of politics,education and business worlds making sure they are not hurting the interests of their adapted nation but yet helping their native country.

'Strategic' investments could be ports,airports,resource companies etc. But we've seen ME and Chinese companies have been rebuffed when they made similar moves and understandably so.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Chinese practically live in a cocoon in the west. They shop at their own businesses, eat at their own restaurants, visit their own doctors..etc. Its a kind of mercantilism where once a dollar enters their community, it flows round and round without moving out of it.

Its like a trade deficit of sorts against other races - except this is within the country. Same thing happening on a larger scale at the national level where China is trying its mercantilist policies against other nations. Export a lot, buy nothing except raw materials.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

France & Germany are trying to put their candidate of choice, the french woman Lagarde, on the IMF chief's seat.

Once she is on, my guess is :

1) She will rubber stamp all IMF loans to Greece (she knows they won't repay the IMF)
2) The money will go straight to German & French banks as repayment of Greek debt
3) Later, Greece will default against the IMF loans - she will act shocked
4) Taxpayers of the world will be made to suffer the loss

IMF is another scam like the Federal Reserve passing on losses of banking crooks to suckers.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

The excellent sri Martin Wolf of FT pens another scorcher here. The man's true intellect lies in his ability to think & articulate from outside what folks may expect from someone of his kind...

How China could yet fail like Japan
Until 1990, Japan was the most successful large economy in the world. Almost nobody predicted what would happen to it in the succeeding decades. Today, people are yet more in awe of the achievements of China. Is it conceivable that this colossus could learn that spectacular success is a precursor of surprising failure? The answer is: yes.
Sure. That's hardly news. Folks have grown old, tired and retired predicting PRC's fall just as we BRFites have, predicting Pak's collapse. Doesn't mean it'll happen tomorrow, or ever.
Premier Wen Jiabao has himself described the economy as “unstable, unbalanced, unco-ordinated and ultimately unsustainable”.
{Yawn. Big words from chicoms for outsider consumption mean zilch in both theory and practice.}
The nature of the challenge was made evident to me during discussions of the 12th five year plan at the China Development Forum 2011 in Beijing in March. This new plan calls for a sharp change in the pace and structure of economic growth. In particular, growth is forecast to decline to just 7 per cent a year. More important, the economy is expected to rebalance from investment, towards consumption and, partly as a result, from manufacturing towards services.
Hmmm. That now starts to maybe somewhat get interesting-ish perhaps....
The question is whether these shifts can be managed smoothly. Michael Pettis of Peking University’s Guanghua School of Management has argued that they cannot be. His argument rests on the view that in the investment-led growth model, repression of household incomes plays a central role by subsidising that investment. Removing that repression – a necessary condition for faster growth of consumption – risks causing a sharp slowdown in output and a still bigger slowdown in investment. Growth is driven as much by subsidised expansion of capacity as by the profitable matching of supply to final demand. This will end with a bump.
Bang on. Bulls eye. An essentially simply idea that could be made to look arbitrarily complex is articulated simply only. Beautiful exposition or what?

OK, OK. That was all wishy washy storytelling. Where're the numbers, the learned may ask. Show me the math, the pee-ech-dees will demand... Here're just enough numbers to keep the story focused yet credibly non-complex only...
Investment has indeed grown far faster than GDP. From 2000 to 2010, growth of gross fixed investment averaged 13.3 per cent, while growth of private consumption averaged 7.8 per cent. Over the same period the share of private consumption in GDP collapsed from 46 per cent to a mere 34 per cent, while the share of fixed investment rose from 34 per cent to 46 per cent.

If this pattern of growth is to reverse, as the government wishes, the growth of investment must fall well below that of GDP. This is what happened in Japan in the 1990s, with dire results. The thesis advanced by Prof Pettis is that a forced investment strategy will normally end with such a bump. The question is when.
Oh, sri Wolf is on fire with insight and wisdom in this one. Read it all only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Interesting commentary, not my own but it may as well have been written by me. Agree with most of what is said below.

-----
Ben Bernanke is:

1. Forcing interest rates to 0%. This is crippling to savers and senior citizens forcing them into risky, overpriced stock market or loss of principal. If interest rates were normal, these people could spend their interest helping the economy.

2. Causing massive inflation of food and energy which hits low income people who use a larger proportion of their income for these items to suffer. In addition this forces more people to need food stamps and not be able to support themselves on low paying service jobs (most new jobs are low paying service jobs).

3. Contributing to world hunger by causing massive inflation in food and commodity prices in other countries making more people hate the US.

4. Helping crooked mega banks swallow up smaller failing banks by giving the larger banks trillions in taxpayer money enabling these crooks to benefit and become larger and even more too big to fail exactly the opposite of what should be happening.

All of this is being done (in an unsuccessful) attempt to keep housing prices from falling (because the solvency of the big banks depends on house prices rising.) It is not working ironically because the common man does not have enough money to buy houses at todays prices.

If he had let market forces work, house prices would have fallen ( fast and hard ) making them more affordable and people could buy them and have money left over to spend..

Even though this attempt at controlling market forces is failing (and house prices are slowly continuing to fall), Bens friends the wall st execs are becoming ever wealthier on taxpayer money and will not have to suffer the severe repercussions of his actions in the future..

Your best protection for this action If you are not part of the big bank cartel is to buy gold and silver physical is best not etf's who will be found to be fraudulent I believe) gold is NOT in a bubble up 6 times from lows of 1980 stock market is up 12 times (but they tell me that this is cheap).. Gold Silver sure to rise and protect you from Bens printing press that will eventually cause hyper inflation & send the dollar into the abyss..

A word about BUFFET >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Buffett proclaims his love of capitalism...
Ironically if the trillion dollar bailout of crooked banks did not occur and they were allowed to go bankrupt,Buffet would have lost his shirt but that would be true capitalism.. and instead of having 3 or 4 too big to fail banks loaded with toxic debt we could have had 500 new banks with no debt. Only the investors who took the risks would have lost this is capitalism and what made our country great.

Instead this small elite group (WHO I BELIEVE HAD CONNECTIONS TO THE FED VIA GOLDMAN) invested in companies like GOLDMAN & GE and now taxpayer money has been and continues to be employed to bailout and ****Temporarily*** prop the markets & Buffet benefits with articles comparing him to a savior like Jimmy Stuart on It's a wonderful Life !

Buffet also has vested interest to pump the market as he has sold put options that would bankrupt Berkshire if the market tanked.

The public is so gullible they actually believe the banks paid back the tarp money not realizing the trillions given to them at 0% is used to buy treasuries paying 2% all that interest gets added to our national debt bankrupting us to enrich a small number of crooked banksters.. However our country is now bankrupt the banks are no better off, in fact worse off now than 2 years ago as house prices continue their slow descent and taxpayer money is used to hide their increasing toxic debt... So the execs and people in the know like Buffett got billion dollar bonuses while the rest of the country suffers thru the coming massive depression !

As far as the banks within about 3 months or less big bust.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Good article that lays down in 1 place what folks on this dhaga have alluded to in different posts at different times - that electoral outcomes have ceased to matter in that taxpayer liabilities for the socialization of private losses (e.g. bank bailouts) has continued steadily regardless of changes in gubmint.

‘Vote how you like, but policies cannot change' (EU Observer)
The formal trappings of clean elections - in which political parties with competing manifestoes contest a ballot free of voter intimidation - are all still there, but someone else has decided in advance what the result will be.

It's not the voters that are intimidated any more: it's the parties that are.

The count of EU member states now tallies to four - Ireland, Portugal, Finland and Greece - where this post-political phenomenon has materialised, but committed democrats across the Union should wonder which country is next.
IN every case, voter anger at the ballot box has been misspent. The new gubmint that takes power caves in so quickly to the big bank cabal that one is left mystified, wondering and yup, somewhat scared only. What is that awesome power the banks seem to have over elected govts with heavy popular mandates?? Iceland alone, to its everlasting credit, refused to be cowed down and kicked its surrendering govt out than accept the bankster yoke... Alas, we waited in vain for the Iceland effect to resonate in Ireland after the Irish polls, in Greece & Portugal etc. To no avail.
This has not happened by putsch or coup d'etat, at least not one involving any guns or tanks. There are no colonels or partisans who have captured the garrisons and seized the telephone exchange.

Yet a junta has installed itself nonetheless, a junta of ‘experts', technocrats, those educated in the knowledge of What Needs To Be Done. Wherever these masters of the European universe happen to be hovering at any one moment, the refrain in effect is the same: ‘Of course, there is no question that you are still allowed to vote however you like. Nevertheless, the policies absolutely cannot change even if the government does.'
OK, OK. All that is sweet subjective musing only. What's the modus operandi?
Apart from a handful of Irish democrats, on a European level, the democratic implications of this orchestration went largely unnoticed. It was only when Portugal became the focus of the European engineers that ears pricked up.

One week in April, Portuguese banks announced they would stop buying government bonds if Lisbon did not seek a rescue. Later that week, the head of the country's banking association, Antonio de Sousa, admitted that he had been given "clear instructions" from the ECB and the Bank of Portugal to cut off the tap.

Without the support of domestic banks, Socrates had no choice but to request an external lifeline. Days before, the opposition Social Democrats withdrew their support for the government over an austerity programme they would later sign up to, forcing the minority government into a snap election.

The very day that Portugal finally capitulated, EU and ECB experts demanded that even though the parties were in the middle of an electoral campaign, all main parties sign an accord endorsing the bail-out memorandum, no matter the result of the vote.

Letting the people decide what was best for them was out of the question. "Let's not have a public dialogue every day," [Finland Economy Commissioner] Olli Rehn declared.

His ECB colleague, Jean-Claude Trichet, echoed his concerns, saying simply that bail-out negotiations were "certainly not for public" discussion.
OMG. Jaw dropped when I read that bolded part. Was it *that* blatant only? In Western Oirope no less. Yaalla! Must've missed it, no thanks to bankster-bought media silence perhaps...
And here's the kicker.

According to a poll conducted by Greece's Kappa Institute two weeks ago, 30 percent of Greek respondents actually want the country to be led by "a group of experts and technocrats."

A plurality of Greeks have now become so disillusioned with sovereignty and democracy that they think at least the experts could deliver something better than the seemingly insurmountable unemployment, corruption and economic collapse they see around them.

The same survey said that less than a quarter believed that a democratically-elected government will be able to overcome the ordeal they are going through.

But if the experts, the technocrats who are sidelining democracy in their subtle way, feel heartened by such polls, they should pause when they read the rest of this census.

A full 22.7 percent want "a strongman" to resolve the ongoing crisis.
Well, well, the chinese model seems to be gaining ground in eurostan, seemingly. Doesn't augur well for anybody, I dare say.

Of course 'em barbarian oiripeans are like that only. Could never happen in the good ole US of A. No? Well, who knows. Maybe its happened already and one only needs connect the dots....Mish pops the pertinent Q regarding US polity...
For all the political bickering in the US would it have mattered if McCain won the last election? If so how?

Would McCain have bailed out the banks and voted for nonsensical stimulus programs? Of course. Indeed McCain voted for bailouts while the 2008 election campaign was still in progress.
Well, well....small comfort (com-fart?) that India's dysfunctional dynastic polity doesn't seem *that* much of an outlier & out-liar anymore only. Still, is this the best we could do? The 21st century was supposedly about hope and change and peace, prosperity, freedom and harmony...No?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

From TAE's tweetdeck:link
Connect the dots of debt: Via Forbes, "French banks had lent 9% of France’s GDP to Spain; Dutch banks fully 16.4% of Holland’s GDP to Spain; and Portugal’s banks– 13% of Portugal’s GDP to Spain. German banks had lent 12% of the German GDP to Ireland and Spain British banking giants Barclays and HSBC had lent 9.4% of the UK GDP to Ireland and another 5.7% to Spain."
Hmmm. Aha. Web of intrigue or what? There's not enough real wealth in the borrowers assets to payback all those competing claims for those same assets. SO someone somewhere will have to take hits on their loans. WHo might that be? That's what all this renegotiation + voluntary debt-restructuring drama is about - putting off knowing for however long possible.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

China's Bank Reckoning Approaches
A large part of China's economic miracle was built on ill-considered lending and accounting sleight-of-hand.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 29004.html
When the global financial crisis impacted China's exports in 2008, Beijing ordered its banks to support a massive credit expansion to create jobs and stimulate growth. The banks eagerly went into action and in 2009 and 2010 made new loans amounting to a total of 20 trillion yuan ($3.1 trillion). Of these a significant amount went to local government borrowers. Estimates of how many of these loans would go bad range from 25% to 30%, which suggests a total figure of 8-9 trillion yuan. The machinery to remove bad loans from the banking system is already in place. In 1999 Beijing created four asset management companies to acquire nonperforming loans. These "bad banks" were supposed to exist for only 10 years, during which the government expected them to complete the sale or disposal of their portfolios. The results didn't go according to plan. After a decade, the AMCs were able to achieve only about a 20% recovery rate across their entire portfolios, almost entirely loans to state enterprises. Since more than one-third of the bad loans were acquired at face value, the AMCs from the start were bankrupt; their modest recovery rate was far too little to repay the financing extended by the central bank and commercial banks.
Any write-off of these worthless "assets" would either have forced the Ministry of Finance to assume the AMCs' debts or forced the banks, which hold AMC bonds, to take losses large enough to wipe out big chunks of their capital. So for political reasons nothing happened. In 2009, bank financing to the AMCs was rolled forward for another decade and the AMCs have survived.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Neshant »

Alan Greenspan's Slide Into Oblivion: The Complete Guide
http://www.businessinsider.com/alan-gre ... ral-2010-4

There was a point when Alan Greenspan was known as "The Maestro," the economic genius who authored the great boom of the 1990s.

Even after the crash in 2000, maker players obsessively tried to suss out wisdom from the cryptic statements he would make to Congress.

Even when Alan Greenspan stepped down from Federal Reserve Chairmanship on January 31, 2006, he was still highly regarded.

He soon returned to economic forecasting, a role he enjoyed before entering government service in 1974.

Ever since then, he's been slowly declining from informed-economic-commentator land to short-sighted irrelevance.

The worst is now. Greenspan has gone on the defensive and is now hesitant to admit he was wrong about the housing crisis and it's badly hurting his reputation.

Most recently, he's been delivering low blows to Michael Burry, a hedge fund manager who called the housing crisis back in 2005.

click through the slide on that website... :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Hari Seldon wrote:From TAE's tweetdeck:link
Connect the dots of debt: Via Forbes, "French banks had lent 9% of France’s GDP to Spain; Dutch banks fully 16.4% of Holland’s GDP to Spain; and Portugal’s banks– 13% of Portugal’s GDP to Spain. German banks had lent 12% of the German GDP to Ireland and Spain British banking giants Barclays and HSBC had lent 9.4% of the UK GDP to Ireland and another 5.7% to Spain."
Hmmm. Aha. Web of intrigue or what? There's not enough real wealth in the borrowers assets to payback all those competing claims for those same assets. SO someone somewhere will have to take hits on their loans. WHo might that be? That's what all this renegotiation + voluntary debt-restructuring drama is about - putting off knowing for however long possible.
Can someone draw an network diagram of these flows to show it graphically?

Hari S, George Bernard Shaw wrote play called "Apple Cart" Try to read it as its relevant as to how corps try to take over the world economy.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Ramana. This simplified one was done by the NY Times. Bit dated but useful. There is a full arrow diagram of all the connections and it was hellishly deviously complicated. 350+ arrows as I remember. Can't find it on my Hard drive at the moment.

How, in heavens name, did Ireland with a GDP of $150 Billion end up owing $867 Billion. That would be like India borrowing/squandering/owing $10 Trillion!

Image

http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... in-europe/

Bigger image here.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/201 ... om1-v3.gif
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 21 Jun 2011 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

How can they borrow Trillions for countries the size of some states in India? Talk about bubbles.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Yup! Forget states, there are union territories in India that have larger populations.

Also note many countries, esp. Scandinavia and along the North Sea are not included.

Also most notably Iceland, which gave them the middle finger, is not included. Another $150 Billion or so. Who's counting anyway.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

ramana wrote:How can they borrow Trillions for countries the size of some states in India? Talk about bubbles.
Ppoulation of countries isnt a relevant statistic, size of the economies is...Taking those numbers, Debt as % of GDP for,

Italy: ~70%
Spain: ~80%
Portugal: ~122%
Greece: ~72%
Iceland: ~400%

India: ~70-80%

Threw in the Indian example to show that (barring Ireland, which is a unique case), a "bubble" isnt where the headlines are...

The real issue is really simple, all these economies are sclerotic in growth terms...And they lack the classical big policy tools to kickstart growth - which is, devaluation of ccy, or even monetary pump priming (both those are powers passed on to "Europe")....

there have been excesses no doubt, but the real story is the unraveling of the common currency - it was always an unsustainable animal..Question is, when does it go away - now, or 10 years later..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Aah. But that's public debt only saar. What is also true is that private debt in India is in INR onlee, for the most part. Not so with the private debt of the oirostani TFTAs. Owed in a currency their country's central bank (if its no longer defunct, that is) can't print only. Another complication is the assumption of private (notably bank) debt by the sovereign in nation after TFTA nation via the bailout route. No wonder in practice, despite what Marx said, it is the bankers of the world who are uniting only. Witness how Portugese banks refused to lend to the Porugese gubmint in the middle of a national election and forced all contesting parties to sign a 'bailout assent' (!! Yes, I know, I'm shocked only!)- those banks knew where their pork chops come from these days - its the Brussels not Lisbon only.

Anyway, going OT perhaps. Jai ho and Hari Om.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Suraj »

Even the size of their economies doesn't paint a full picture. Besides the low economic growth, another factor is the percentage of debt that is external, and in particular, external currency denominated debt, which is further subdivided into short term and longer term kinds. India's total external debt is ~18%, with short term being a fraction of that. At least the Eurozone debt is primarily in their shared currency. Now if one of them quit the Eurozone and their new local currency was beaten down vs EUR, we'd have Weimar Germany redux...
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