Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[RajeshA]

There is a book by Koenraad Elst online.


UPDATE ON THE ARYAN INVSION DEBATE

by KOENRAAD ELST
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi

[RajeshA]

I think this topic "Aryan Invasion Theory", etc. has a lot of relevance for those who are researching the issue of inferiority complex among Indians, as shiv saar started researching in GDF - "An Indian sense of inadequacy and inferiority" Thread.

I have heard so many North Indians, some Sikhs among them, but basically North Indians in general, who may have some lighter complexions, speak in favor of Aryan Invasion Theory.

Once they start identifying themselves through their ancestors with Aryans, they do develop a certain arrogance of superiority towards others who may have a different build and complexion. They also then develop an inferiority complex, because they then see themselves not as pure "Aryans" but rather corrupted "Aryans" and curse their forefathers for "mixing" with the natives thus spoiling the superior "Aryan" bloodline.

Psychologically this is a dangerous attitude, and all because of a misleading theory.

[shiv]

Sanskrit is a funny language. There are so many synonyms, you can sit in Tinbuctu and find a connetcion with your language. As I dig deeper into possible connections between Tamil/Kannada on the one hand and sanskrt, I find some surpises.

The word for "break" in Kannada is "wodi" or "odi". "wo" and "o" are often mixed up by Kannadigas who say "oomen" for "women" and "orsht" for "worst". The Tamil word for "breal" is similar and is "od-" or "wod-"

guess what? One of the words for "break" in Sanskrit is "vidal" (or widal). You will find that people who search for Sanskrit roots for "Indo-European" worda are sure to pick Sanskrit synoy tat is different but fits.

I was looking for an old Tamil word for heart, unsuccessfully. Iknow that the word for ehart I was taught is borrowed from Sanskrit - irudayam , like hruday.

But wtf - I found one rf to an old Tail word for heart "Kuruthu" cardiac? Cor? anyone

Folks we have missed a hge elephant in the room. because of some blundering idiots who decided that Sanskrit should be connected with fair skinned Europeans, the Southern languages, with deep links to Sanskrit and even "indoEuropean" have been ignored. And let me point out that the first Macaulayites from india were from Tamil Nadu and Bengal, and they will be the last to start looking at the links.

[shiv]

Rajesh ji, for some reason I am of the view that educating people and make them understand why AIT/AMT is fiction is akin to religious realignment. In fact I would say that AIT/AMT has taken a religious tone in India. When religion steps in, topics like AIT/AMT can take religious color, and people who dont want it to be debunked can make it a messy business. But there is also no alternative but educate, we need teachers, teachers who can spawn more educators, it would also greatly help if gov atleast rescinds mentioning AIT or takes an ambivalent stance in history books.

Venug, I am on board with harbans in a post he made earlier. Let us search for truth. the reason I am confidently searching for truth is because I am certain that linguistic bullshitting has gone on for 200 years.

Over the past few pages I have listed south Indian language words that do not necessarily fit in with Sanskrit but have eerie parallels with some European langauges. Do you see the implication of this?

A connection of Dravidian languages with so called "Indo-European' languages would turn all currently tomtommed language theories upside down an leave them gasping for breath. All current theories revolve around Sanskrit being "Indo-European" and "dravidian languages " being something different possibly equally old or older.

But if southern Indian languages have connections with European languages all theories have to be discarded. Now let me point out something about scientists and researchers. People who work on theories and publish papers are very very reluctant to be shown that they may be wrong. especially if they are nearing the end of what they think is an illustrious career with man publications and students they have taught - the worst possible thing they can find is someone pointing out that they have been talking rubbish all these years. This is cognitive dissonance not in a stupid Paki - but in a professor who will fight dirty.

But an entirely new line of linguistic research is necessary in India. This can happen only when Indians stop becoming ONLY engineers and doctors and to go to Yamrika or become software engineers, and start entering alternate lines like archaeology, psychology, sociology, linguistics etc. these are currently seen as "loser professions" by Indian parents paying for their kids education. that is what makes us losers

[member_20317]

Re. RajeshA Post subject: Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to TruthPosted: 16 Jun 2012 19:37

RajeshA ji I am a north Indian. I also noticed this tendency at first amongst Punjabies. But this was only till the time I made a few further observations about this phenomena, that:
(1) It is not restricted to Punjabies (something that you observed yourself)
(2) It is more apparent amongst the more well off sections of society
(3) It is actually hardly at all about Jaati or Varna. It is more about regions. With Jati coming in only in case where an individual cannot be bracketed into any region eg. against Gujjars and Baniyas.
(4) It actually comes forth not in business as usual conditions but when there is a breakdown in business as usual.

Basically everybody is cussing and swearing at everybody else on pretty much similar grounds, 'something is wrong in this guy because he is part of that region'.

I do not know the south Indian scene.

While at this point it seems this is an OT here but you are right the divide and rule has been going on for long and AIT and reactions thereto, has a lot to do with it esp. since it is institutionalized and provides the intellectual underpinnings to the forces out to weaken India. It was easy to handover authorship of various parts of the Hindu world to various idiots and then instigate through mass media each of these sections when the reality is that everything about authorship is pretty jumbled up. Most cases the ancient sages just did not leave any trace of who they were.

[RajeshA]

ravi_g ji,

psychology works like that. If you give a guy something to feel better than the other one, he will take it, especially if it pumps up his identity credentials.

I am not even sure that many in India who have been fed with these myths would be willing to accept any other narrative.

If some Indian guy have made it a center-piece of his identity that because of his brown eyes, he is related to the Europeans and better than his neighbors, then his psychology would resist change in ideology.

That is why the state cannot be ambivalent to this issue, and must make a committed indigenist stance, through education and otherwise.

[member_20317]

But an entirely new line of linguistic research is necessary in India. This can happen only when Indians stop becoming ONLY engineers and doctors and to go to Yamrika or become software engineers, and start entering alternate lines like archaeology, psychology, sociology, linguistics etc. these are currently seen as "loser professions" by Indian parents paying for their kids education. that is what makes us losers

Shiv ji, lets look at something here.

1. The AIT on this thread has been best challenged by people who got their first training in Maths and Medicine.
2. There is an American Mathematician (I forget the name) who has accepted the older dates accepted by Hindus for our scriptures based on what he knew of the evolution of Mathematics.
3. India has produced a veritable army of BAs and MAs compared to Engineers and Doctors, and that is not reflected on this forum. JNU is known for BA and MA not for its school of computer sciences.
4. Any discipline (linguistics or humanities) requires logic to do it. Hardly something you will expect from an educational structure build up on a theorising stance.
5. The AIT was killed by patient completion of archeological work and AMT was killed by something entirely out ot the bleu (genetics)


Your prescription doctor saab dont match the current observations.

[member_22872]

Ravi garu, in fact I do agree with Shiv garu, we do need dedicated people in arts to take up this job, not doctors or engineers. The reason is people like Witzel, and people in linguistics etc undermine others who are don't have right background or have a profession in archeology etc, they put down the findings of engineers etc who dedicate their free time in this research, it means nothing to them. Look at Talageri's example, this man wrote a good book but could be that he is not a linguist or may also be that he doesnt have a phd, now see how linguists are insulting his work? they need a phd at least even listen to them in the first place yet they peddle lies, thy think ony people in linguistics have the right in the place. This is also true what has happened to Rajaraman, he too doesnt have a degree in arts(?) So to be effective we need arts people skilled in history, linguists, archeologists and geneticists to work in tandem to bring our truth. Any one can certainly challenge purely on logic, but to prove and bring truth to the fore, we need specific people.

Like Shiv ji said, I think finding truth out is very important, then getting the word out. If truth is known it will shine for sure.

[Kanson]

Re. Kanson Post subject: Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to TruthPosted: 15 Jun 2012 17:38

Ramana ji / Kanson ji can you cross post this write up in the link language thread too.

It is a must read. Shows how much of interaction is possible and how things can be worked out.

Ok.

[svinayak]

Defining the Trap

Once Europeans convinced Indians that European languages and North Indian languages are related, they entered into a certain dialogue with us, where we were intrigued and they were eager explorers.

Soon they convinced us that as better intellectuals they could define this relationship much better, where we became a sort of a cheering party, or cheer leaders if you like, while they adopted the role of the players, they started defining the model of relationship between European and North Indian languages.

Soon they had developed models of Indo-European languages and PIE Tree, which included Sanskrit, They convinced us that they would be better custodians of Sanskrit in their various departments in Western universities.

Now Witzel goes around telling Indian scholars that they don't have any foundation in Sanskrit, so they are not qualified to judge anything, tries to destroy their credibility.
So one way to recover the custodianship of Sanskrit is

- reinsert it into our academic life, make it a medium of education, study Sanskrit a la Pāṇini. We need to plant Sanskrit again in Indian academic, cultural and political fabric.

- try to recreate the linguistic creation process of Sanskrit from the various proto-Prakrits and proto-Tamil ages ago, thus creating deep roots of Sanskrit in the Indic lingual landscape.

We need to be able to offer a separate different historical narrative of how the Sanskrit language came about than what is currently offered by AIT proponents.

You are repeating the same error which was done by Indians 100 years ago.

India after independence are free to find its real history and discard the colonial history.
All countries will remove the vestiges of colonial power and correct their narratives. Here after 60 years of independence we have Indians supporting and defending a colonial narrative of India.

India can refuse to entertain the colonial history and narrative.

[Kanson]

Kanson - I am sure you already know, but "Ko" (or Kon) in old Tamil is "king" which is strikingly similar to Konig in German.

Yes Saar, I think so. From the link http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix: ... mil_origin

Tamil kOn கோன் meaning King, Master. If I'm not wrong, there are two Ko s, KO (long vowel) and Ko (short vowel).

KO has something to do with King/Master/Head etc, as I see. Ko(one with short vowel) has different meaning.

[Kanson]

Kanson, THanks for the serious reply.
I want you and Bji to look at my next idea.


There are 491 glyphs in existing Harappa seals. Of them the most interesting is the forest god sitting 'padma asana'.
We all know the forest god figure of the Harappa seal. As Hindus we can identify it as Shiv as Vanraj or forest king. Can we fit the names of shiva to the seal glyphs and thus decode at least that seals?

Next may be the horned bull claimed to be unicorn may be its a representation of Nandi?

Sir ji, the problem with Harappa seals is there is no way to verify/conclude even if one can come up with or fit any names. It will appear more as some guess work. But I will keep in mind. What others are feeling?

[Kanson]

Would be very interested to know occurrences/meanings of two joined sounds [not necessarily fused into "labiovelars" but could be in sequence] in Tamil :

(1) "kn" [we already have a list]
(2) "tr" [very very interested in this sequence]

With my limited exposure, If can make it out, it give the meaning as ray(s).

[RajeshA]

Defining the Trap
- try to recreate the linguistic creation process of Sanskrit from the various proto-Prakrits and proto-Tamil ages ago, thus creating deep roots of Sanskrit in the Indic lingual landscape.

We need to be able to offer a separate different historical narrative of how the Sanskrit language came about than what is currently offered by AIT proponents.

You are repeating the same error which was done by Indians 100 years ago.

India after independence are free to find its real history and discard the colonial history.
All countries will remove the vestiges of colonial power and correct their narratives. Here after 60 years of independence we have Indians supporting and defending a colonial narrative of India.

India can refuse to entertain the colonial history and narrative.

Acharya garu,

You are making the assumption that if India changes the narrative within India, it would suffice to bury AIT. We have a major voice in defining the narrative, but we will thus only be able to define it for a section of our public, some sections would still continue to embrace AIT, as they're invested in it.

Secondly, the Western academic circles will just poh-pooh any such stance calling it nationalist and not scientific. And basically the rest of the world would follow the Western narrative. Every two-bit foreigner would talk to an Indian, "well you want to believe so, but science says ...".

India's history deserves to be universally (more or less) accepted!

The West already has taken partial custody of Sanskrit, and our just rage wouldn't really change a thing, and only show us as "overly emotional, unable to debate dispassionately", a charge which is already thrown around at RSS & Co. every now and then.

Of course, one can counter with, we should not care what others think, but when it comes our nation's history's narrative, one doesn't want it to be laughed at by the world. One wants to be able to own it completely and put one's stamp on it.

I'm making no mistake in this. We are today not the sole owners of Sanskrit and her history! Pretending otherwise is not helpful.The challenge is to take it back!

A Babri Masjid already sits on Ram Mandir! It is retrievable but not simple!

[member_20317]

Kanson, THanks for the serious reply.
I want you and Bji to look at my next idea.


There are 491 glyphs in existing Harappa seals. Of them the most interesting is the forest god sitting 'padma asana'.
We all know the forest god figure of the Harappa seal. As Hindus we can identify it as Shiv as Vanraj or forest king. Can we fit the names of shiva to the seal glyphs and thus decode at least that seals?

Next may be the horned bull claimed to be unicorn may be its a representation of Nandi?

Sir ji, the problem with Harappa seals is there is no way to verify/conclude even if one can come up with or fit any names. It will appear more as some guess work. But I will keep in mind. What others are feeling?

ramana ji that is not Padmasana. AFAIK it has already been identified as Mulabandhasana. In my view something possible in spirit by only the highest practioners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mula_Bandha

But if you are trying to decode it linguistically then you may be aiming for the stars.

A more reachable idea would perhaps be to assess what the Gundestrup Cauldron is showing in the light of the Pasupati Seal. Both are shown in the following wiki link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati

I have learnt a lot from BRF members but the members tend to take the most difficult route first. The most natural route is invariably thought of as too easy == not good enough.

[svinayak]

I'm making no mistake in this. We are today not the sole owners of Sanskrit and her history! Pretending otherwise is not helpful.The challenge is to take it back!

Have you visited any major Hindu temple and maths which are more than 1000 years old and the traditions are maintained. Have you visited any sanskrit colleges in India and talked to the prof.
Why are they prevented from debating with the AIT supporters of India. Read Romila Thapers. They are pretending this whole thing of not owning Sanskrit. The correction is to Remove this confusion and remove all the colonial assumptions. It will need funding and decades of research. But who is stopping it.

We need to bring these scholars to the mainstream and the change will happen. The change has to start in the schools and textbooks.

You are making the assumption that if India changes the narrative within India, it would suffice to bury AIT. We have a major voice in defining the narrative, but we will thus only be able to define it for a section of our public, some sections would still continue to embrace AIT, as they're invested in it.

What do the foreigners have in Indian history. Why do they need Indian history. They dont belong to India and they should stay from Indian history.

[Vayutuvan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati
I have learnt a lot from BRF members but the members tend to take the most difficult route first. The most natural route is invariably thought of as too easy == not good enough.

Ravig ji

Thanks for the link. After looking at the Gundestrup plate A there is almost no doubt in my mind that somehow the image of Pashupati seal of Mohenjodaro has made its way to Denmark. Also, the Ogress Hariti is eerily similar to the images of Indian goddesses. So the connections made by one Taylor to Vishnu and Lakshmi may very well be true and more archealogical evidence needs to be found.

[RajeshA]

You are making the assumption that if India changes the narrative within India, it would suffice to bury AIT. We have a major voice in defining the narrative, but we will thus only be able to define it for a section of our public, some sections would still continue to embrace AIT, as they're invested in it.

What do the foreigners have in Indian history. Why do they need Indian history. They dont belong to India and they should stay from Indian history.

I guess the questions are rhetorical.

If not, I would say that they need Sanskrit, to give themselves some prehistory! As they wish to give themselves a history, which is independent from a rival living civilization (Indic) and independent from its future cultural influence, they would not like to oblige us by acknowledging India as their Urheimat.

Then they need various levers to control India.

So your question would be like asking why did East India Company need to come to India? Well they had their reasons. The question is how do we stop them.

[Prem]

Irish claiming this Gundestrup cauldron belongs to them . How similar and close is ancient Irish culture, language etc to indians?

[shiv]

4. Any discipline (linguistics or humanities) requires logic to do it. Hardly something you will expect from an educational structure build up on a theorising stance.

ravi - a lot of the work is plain slogging and building databases and making comparisons, referencing existing work. Also you need that to study all that has been done so far because you cannot claim a new path without knowing th old path and making sure that what you find has not already been found. For that you need dedicated departments, students and interns/trainees and a set up where cross pollination can occur from other specialities. If we rely on sparks of brilliance alone from random unrelated sources we will not get far.

[shiv]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati

Here is a comment from one "expert" which shows the profound stupidity of experts who have been working in this field. These nincompoops actually get quoted.

Gavin Flood characterizes these views as "speculative", saying that while it is not clear from the seal that the figure has three faces, is seated in a yoga posture, or even that the shape is intended to represent a human figure,

I am amazed that these blithering idiots can get away with nonsense like this. I can point out several anatomical features in that seated pose that are more human than any animal or nol living object. The man is ignorant. Even 2 year old children know how to say "man" when they see a picture of a man

I can well imagine how many man years, no make that man-centuries, of stupidity may have gone into some of these specialities. The sheer depth of speculation and guesswork that gets passed off as wisdom is mind boggling.

[RamaY]

For the word search warriors

Sanskrit words for Cow

धेनु dhenu
गव्य gavya
गव gava
पयस्विनी payasvinI
गो go
निलिम्प nilimpa
निलिम्पिका nilimpikA
सुरभि surabhi
अनडुही anaDuhI
अनड्वाही anaDvAhI
अदिति aditi
अघ्न्या aghnyA
अर्जुनी arjunI
अही ahI
इडा iDA
उषा uSA
उस्र usra
कल्याणी kalyANI
गवी gavI
गोणी goNI
गोपोतलिका gopotalikA
गोता gotA
तम्पा tampA
धेनुका dhenukA
निलिम्पा nilimpA
बहुला bahulA
भद्रा bhadrA
महा mahA
माहा mAhA
माहेन्द्री mAhendrI
माहेयी mAheyI
मही mahI
महीलुका mahIlukA
वशा vazA
वैदेही vaidehI
शृङ्गिणी zRGgiNI
सौरभेयी saurabheyI
सौरभी saurabhI
सुरभितनया surabhitanayA
गु gu
मातृ mAtR
सरस्वती sarasvatI
इज्य ijya
उस्रिय usriya
पावन pAvana
शक्रज zakraja
शुभ zubha
सौर saura
पीवन् pIvan
जगत् jagat

Sanskrit words associated with Horse

अश्व azva
अश्वशकट azvazakaTa
पतंग pataMga
वल्लभ vallabha
घोटिका ghoTikA
हयी hayI
घोटक ghoTaka
तुरग turaga
तुरङ्ग turaGga
पालक pAlaka
वाह vAha
रत्थ्य ratthya
अर्वन् arvan
वाजिन् vAjin
हय haya
तुरंगम turaMgama
हरि hari
सुपर्ण suparNa
अक्र akra
अमृतबन्धु amRtabandhu
अमृतसहोदर amRtasahodara
अरावन् arAvan
अर्वत् arvat
अर्हसान arhasAna
अविष्ठु aviSThu
औच्चैःश्रवस auccaiHzravasa
किङ्किर kiGkira
किण्विन् kiNvin
किन्धिन् kindhin
कीकट kIkaTa
कीकटक kIkaTaka
किल्किन् kilkin
किल्विन् kilvin
कुण्डिन् kuNDin
कुरुटिन् kuruTin
केसरिन् kesarin
केशरिन् kezarin
केशिन् kezin
क्रमण kramaNa
क्रान्त krAnta
क्रतुपशु kratupazu
खरु kharu
खेट kheTa
ग्रहभोजन grahabhojana
गुह guha
चामरिन् cAmarin
चणभोजिन् caNabhojin
घोट ghoTa
जविन् javin
टार TAra
तार्क्ष्य tArkSya
तुरंग turaMga
दुर्मुख durmukha
धाराट dhArATa
धुर्य dhurya
ध्वजिन् dhvajin
निगालवत् nigAlavat
पतत्रिन् patatrin
पेलिन् pelin
पिञ्जर piJjara
पीथि pIthi
पीति pIti
पीतिन् pItin
प्रकीर्ण prakIrNa
प्रकीर्णक prakIrNaka
बाह bAha
ब्रध्न bradhna
ब्रह्माग्रभू brahmAgrabhU
ब्रह्मात्मभू brahmAtmabhU
प्रचेलक pracelaka
प्रमथ pramatha
प्रयाग prayAga
प्रयोग prayoga
प्रायुध्युद्धेषिन् prAyudhyuddheSin
प्रोथिन् prothin
मरुद्रथ marudratha
माषाश mASAza
माषाशिन् mASAzin
मय maya
मुद्गभोजिन् mudgabhojin
मुद्गभुज् mudgabhuj
मुहुर्भोजिन् muhurbhojin
मुहुर्भुज् muhurbhuj
राजस्कन्ध rAjaskandha
राजवाह rAjavAha
राम rAma
रसिक rasika
यज्ञपशु yajJapazu
ययी yayI
ययु yayu
युद्धसार yuddhasAra
युयु yuyu
लक्ष्मीपुत्र lakSmIputra
लट्व laTva
वह vaha
वाहनश्रेष्ठ vAhanazreSTha
वाहश्रेष्ठ vAhazreSTha
वह्नि vahni
वारु vAru
वातप्रमी vAtapramI
वातायन vAtAyana
विमान vimAna
वीक्ष्य vIkSya
वीति vIti
वोरुखान vorukhAna
वृषल vRSala
व्यति vyati
शालिहोत्रिन् zAlihotrin
शिखिन् zikhin
श्रीभ्रातृ zrIbhrAtR
श्रीपुत्र zrIputra
श्येन zyena
सप्ति sapti
सिंहविक्रम siMhavikrama
सिंहविक्रान्त siMhavikrAnta
हंस haMsa
हर्यते haryate
हेषिन् heSin
ह्वार्य hvArya
सैन्धव saindhava
स्वाम्युपकारक svAmyupakAraka
एव eva
वासुदेव vAsudeva
ह ha
परुद्वार parudvAra
ललाम lalAma
ललामन् lalAman
वाहन vAhana
वाह्य vAhya
वसु vasu
पत्त्र pattra
अश्वबुध्य azvabudhya

good luck

[shiv]

According to traditional theory, and despite claims on here and elsewhere that it has been discarded, the Aryan Invasion lie exists merrily in tens of thousands of textbooks and references.

To recap - some fairskinned Aryans riding horses with pastoral poets singing to nature (rain, thunder, wind etc) came to India and drove away the black skinned cock worshippers to the south. Ever since the brainy white man came up with this idea the south and north have been divided by a mental block of Indian slavery to ideas put into our heads.

Here is some stuff about the Taml and Vedic calendars which unfortunately require an IQ of over 80 to read. Of course all you require is an IQ of 10 to become and an expert in some fields so that you can make up theories like the Aryan Invasion theory.

Why the Zia-ul-Haq are the Vedic and Tamil calendars so similar?
http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Astronomy# ... mal_System
Vedic:

The sexagesimal system of measurement is based on the number sixty. There are sixty seconds in a minute, sixty minutes in a hour. When we measure angles, we use the sexagesimal to express units in degrees, minutes and seconds. This method of measurement familiar to both the Indian and Mesopotamian cultures. It may be that one culture borrowed from the other or that both developed the system independently. Or it could be of such antiquity that both cultures shared a common origin. Whatever the case, it seems quite evident that the sexagesimal system may be based in large part upon the observation of the planets, specifically Jupiter and Saturn.

After every sixty years, Jupiter and Saturn will return to the same relative place in the zodiac. Even though they conjoin every twenty years, it is every third conjunction that they will be in the same zodiacal position as they were sixty years before. Jupiter takes twelve years to complete one circuit of the zodiac. It takes thirty years for Saturn to complete a similar circuit.

Consider the following:

Jupiter takes twelve years years to transit the zodiac. The zodiac has twelve signs. Jupiter travels an average thirty degrees or one complete sign in one solar year.
Saturn takes an average thirty years to transit the zodiac. Each zodiacal sign has thirty degrees and Saturn travels one degree per month. It takes thirty months for Saturn to travel one sign. It takes three hundred and sixty months for Saturn to transit the entire zodiac. Jupiter divides the zodiac into twelve parts or signs. The number derived from Saturn's motion suggests the division of each sign into thirty parts or degrees.
Jupiter and Saturn take sixty years between conjunctions to reach the same place in the zodiac. This joint motion suggests the third and fourth division of the degree into sixty minutes and each minute into sixty seconds.

The sixty years cycle of Jupiter and Saturn gives rise to another interesting number. In a sixty year period, Jupiter will complete five circuits of the zodiac and Saturn will complete two circuits. The combined individual cycles equal seven which is also the total number of visible planets plus the two luminaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_calendar
Tamil Calendar

Sixty-year cycle

The 60-year cycle of the Tamil calendar is common to North and South Indian traditional calendars, with the same name and sequence of years. Its earliest reference is to be found in Surya Siddhanta, which Varahamihirar (550 CE) believed to be the most accurate of the then current theories of astronomy. However, in the Surya Siddhantic list, the first year was Vijaya and not Prabhava as currently used. This 60-year cycle is also used in the Chinese calendar.

After the completion of sixty years, the calendar starts anew with the first year. This corresponds to the Hindu "century." The Vakya or Tirukannitha Panchangam (the traditional Tamil almanac) outlines this sequence.

[shiv]

When the fairskinned central Asian bards riding non Indian chariots drawn by central Asian horses came to India and drove the penis worshippers away, they first asked them the names of days of the week. Then they forced the phallus worshippers to accept two days of their week in the names and then sent them packing.

I have evidence for this, like there is evidence for the AIT

That is why you have the satem branch "Indo-European" days of the week named as

Ravi
Som
Mangal
Budh
Guru
Shukra
Shani

The black heathens were ordered to accept the words "budh" (for wednesday) and "shani (for saturday)

Tamil week days

Gnyathi (Sunday)
Thingal (Mon)
Sevvai (Tue)
Budhan (Wed)
Visalan (Thu)
Velli (Fri)
Sani (Sat)

[JwalaMukhi]

Some more tamil and sanskrit words...
http://aruniyan.wordpress.com/2010/11/2 ... it-origin/

[shiv]

Some more tamil and sanskrit words...
http://aruniyan.wordpress.com/2010/11/2 ... it-origin/

I have read some accounts that say that Tamil borrowed a whole lot of Sanskrit words. But this does not explain any words that are common to Tamil and European languages,but is not exactly the same as the sanskrit link

the word "ko" for king in Tamil sounds so different from raja, regius, royal but fits in well with konig in German and other North European languages.

Fundamentally, current theories link Sanskrit with Europe and delink south Indian languages. That is a mistake with the most profound implications. If you link Tamil with Sanskrit and other european languages the age of "Indo-European" IMO will go even further back in time.

Too much guesswork has gone on in this business.

There is shameless use of guesswork by dozens of cross refernces even when the fact of guesswork is openly admitted. See this link about Ancient Greek phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek#Phonology

The examples below are intended to represent Attic Greek in the 5th century BC. Although ancient pronunciation can never be reconstructed with certainty, Greek in particular is very well documented from this period, and there is little disagreement among linguists as to the general nature of the sounds that the letters represented.

The linguists agree with each other to cook something up from within their caste. If you can never know what ancient pronunciation was like, how can you cook up entire languages and claim you know? And then use that cooked up knowledge to match with archaeological data? The mind boggles folks.

[member_22872]

Shiv garu, along with language admixture model which invalidates PIE model, here is a genetic study which says that language admixture doesn't mean genetic admixture. This means that one can't argue that because IE languages look similar hinting at some sort of people mixing, hence language admixtures, doesn't necessarily mean they also exchanged genes.

Language shift is a phenomenon where a new language is adopted by a population with virtually no influence on its genetic makeup. We report here the results of a case study, carried out on the Mushar populations, which is thought to have undergone language shift from Munda (an Austro-Asiatic language) to Hindi (an Indo- European language). We compared the mtDNA and Y-chromosomal phylogenies of this population with those of the neighbouring Indo-European and Austro-Asiatic speaking populations, standing at similar social status. The results revealed much closer genetic affinity of the Mushar people to the neighbouring Austro-Asiatic (Mundari) populations, than to the neighbouring Hindi-speaking populations. This example shows that the language shift as such is not necessarily a signal for a rapid genetic admixture, either maternally or paternally.

Language shift is a process where a more prestigious, usually near-by language is adopted by a contemporary population, with only a minor contribution of genes from a source population (Diamond and Bellwood 2003 and references therein). It is a process whereby a community shifts to speaking another language.

The loss of original language is usually gradual and extends over several generations. An example has been given by Diamond and Bellwood (2003) where the growing adoption of English as the language of government in Papua New Guinea (PNG), whose original populations nonetheless remain indigenous with negligible input of European genes.

Historically, language shifts are common - e.g. in British Islands, in Roman-time Sardinia, in Armenia after the fall of Urartu, in
Anatolia with the arrival of Turks (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) all these very likely with an only a limited genetic change.

from 2008 paper:
Language Shift by Indigenous Population: A Model Genetic Study in South Asia
http://tinyurl.com/2z3tcb

[shiv]

Read the posts in this forum. They may all be amateurs like us on BRF. But there seems to be some genuine awareness in every post. See what the posts have to say about how PIE is being constructed and used. It is educative, if nothing else. I post it precisely because it echoes what i have been saying.
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... 28870&PN=1

[RajeshA]

I'm making no mistake in this. We are today not the sole owners of Sanskrit and her history! Pretending otherwise is not helpful.The challenge is to take it back!

Have you visited any major Hindu temple and maths which are more than 1000 years old and the traditions are maintained. Have you visited any sanskrit colleges in India and talked to the prof.
Why are they prevented from debating with the AIT supporters of India. Read Romila Thapers. They are pretending this whole thing of not owning Sanskrit. The correction is to Remove this confusion and remove all the colonial assumptions. It will need funding and decades of research. But who is stopping it.

We need to bring these scholars to the mainstream and the change will happen. The change has to start in the schools and textbooks.

I agree completely with you here. About a month back I wrote something on similar lines.

Exactly RajeshA ji, one cannot live by the rules designed by others.

What has been done in so many centuries deserves a 'Living Response' not a 'Reaction'.

The biggest course in linguistics is the one inside ones own brain. The one that one uses to speak to himself/herself/itself.

ravi_g ji,

One can think of this as a grand game! And we do not have the option of not playing! Why? Because they have decided to play with our jewels.

IMHO, we should accept the challenge.

1) We ask our Government to accredit traditional Vedic Scholars, setting up a system of academic degrees. This is needed because we need scholars who are allowed to debate in secular gatherings, who have authority in secular gatherings. And only the state can give them that authority.

2) In the West, there are academic and professional degrees like Master of Theology and Master of Divinity. Similarly we need state-recognized degrees for Indian Dharmic Studies in various variations. The curriculum and examination would be conducted and managed solely by the various Dharmic authorities, with a few subjects which can be taught in usual universities. The state would not interfere with that. Neither would the state have any say in making such degrees into requirements for any positions in religious institutions.

3) Dharmic institutions should be allowed to open their own universities, and call them universities, and offer such programs.

4) We need to get back our dominance of Vedic and Sanskritic Studies. Right now these studies are more and more wandering off to Western universities, where as our scholars who may have traditional recognition, lack secular accreditation and whose credentials are not accepted in world-wide debates on Sanskrit and Vedas and the rest of Hindu studies.

5) Only if we achieve a system of universities and university recognized scholars with secular academic degrees and based on that start a lively system of conferences, journals, awards, etc. will we be able to take back control. Then we can start inviting scholars from outside, and get our institutions recognized by them.

6) With time we start demanding Indian PhDs in Sanskrit and Vedic Studies from outside scholars as well if they say wish to contribute to now internationally recognized Indian journals and if they wish to attend conferences.

7) We also need to increase the budget of Archaeological Survey of India by a few factors.

Today India is the cricket superpower and nothing moves in international cricket without India having a say in it. Today international players vie to be part of IPL. We need to take a leaf from that domination.

We can one day marginalize all AIT-protagonists, but for that we will have to bring Dharmic and Sanskrit Studies into the secular academic mainstream while still retaining control. This would have to happen in a BJP regime so that the secularists do not hijack the whole process.

[member_22872]

It is one thing to study languages and see if they have any relationship. That alone means a genuine interest and nothing wrong with that. It is also okay to invent PIE with a hope to some day find that language, even if the methods of doing are unscientific, I can still understand the zeal. But it is another thing to invent a hypothetical language on guesses no matter how thought out, but still are assumptions, have no proof of PIE's existence and then re-write the history of a nation. When that happens, one is not only is irresponsible, it has an intention to hijack the history based on invented history based on cooked up words. And think of the gall of these people to first question anything and everything that archeologists find that demolishes this imagined lie - PIE. They then go ahead and demand proof of horse and manure just so their imagined lie stays safe, very dishonest. When they can believe in an imaginary existence of PIE so much that they quote this PIE to support theories and write history books based on this, why is it so difficult for them to even entertain the possibility that archeological existence of horse or Sarasvati or any other evidence to be true?

[RajeshA]

Online Book




The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis
By Shrikant G. Talageri

Publication Date: April 01, 2000
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi

On Voice of Dharma
On Scribd

[shiv]

But it is another thing to invent a hypothetical language on guesses no matter how thought out, but still are assumptions, have no proof of PIE's existence and then re-write the history of a nation.

venug I am going to make a serious allegation here, but it will only be one more to add to all the accusations I have made about phonetics/

There appears to be sheer obscurantism and irresponsibility in the community of phonetic linguists by which they are quite happy to hide behind obscure symbols of a language and method of communication that they have created for themselves and are under no pressure to explain why they reach particular conclusions. Instead the predominant tactic seems to be to insist that they are right. This behavior is otherwise seen in Islamic mullahs passing fatwas.

There is in my view great irresponsibility being displayed by a group of people who claim scholarship. I have stated earlier that the consequences of guesswork being wrong could be very serious for medical researchers or engineering research and development. In the case of phonetics there are zero consequences of being wrong. ("what goes of my father?"). The subject hides behind arcane symbology that puts off even educated people such as yourself, but those who are put off by the arcane symbols and words are a godsend to the community of phonetic lingusts who bash on, secure that no one in the world can question them and that since no one is directly harmed by bullshitting they can go apeshit making up things.

If you spend time searching for information on the internet, you can begin to achieve a layman's understand complex concepts like relativity, cardiac arrythmias, aerodynamics. nuclear physics and other esoteric subjects. But open one language page and it gets filled up with the "magical" unintelligible symbols of linguists who write their conclusions before crapping all over the page with their symbols and private language with not even a token attempt at explaining themselves. They are talking in private code understandable only to their own ilk, but they are great at passing conclusions down and patting themselves on the back.

This will not last long. It will not be very long before a concerned set of doubters will learn the language and start asking questions about how such conclusions are reached. But so far I have only seen arrogance and a sense of "Balls - we know and you don't" with regard to phonetics and PIE. What really surprises me is the almost total absence of multimedia sound and video files to back up all the mad symbols indicating sound change, paltaization, retroflex blah blah.That is not only obscurantism. It is plain shoddy.

[RajeshA]

From Talageri's Book:

Rig Veda: A Historical Analysis, Chapter 6:

The evidence of the Rigveda shows that the home of the Vedic Aryans lay to the east of the Punjab, and the Saptasindhu became familiar to them only after the period of SudAs’ conquests westwards.

The evidence of the Avesta shows that the home of the Iranians at least included the Punjab, long before most of the present-day land known as “Iran” became even known to them.

The evidence of the Avesta shows that the home of the Iranians at least included the Punjab, long before most of the present-day land known as “Iran” became even known to them.

The point of all this is as follows: Gnoli’s analysis shows that most of the historical Iranian areas (even present-day Iran and northern Central Asia, let alone the distant areas to the west of the Caspian Sea) were not part of the Iranian homeland in Avestan times.

On the other hand, an area which has not been an Iranian area in any known historical period, the Punjab, was a part of the Iranian homeland in Avestan times.

So any comparison of Avestan geography with latter-day and present Iranian geography shows Iranian migration only in the northward and westward directions from points as far east as the Punjab.

The Avesta can give us no further information on this subject.

But, as Gnoli himself puts it, “Vedic-Avestan comparison is of considerable importance for the reconstruction of the ‘Proto-Indoaryan’ and early Iranian historical and geographical milieu.”

Hence, we must now turn once again to the Rigveda.


III - THE HISTORICAL IDENTITY OF THE IRANIANS

Gnoli points out that the Avesta reflects “an historical situation in which Iranian elements exist side by side with … Aryan or Proto-Indoaryan (elements)”.

Turning to the Rigveda, it is natural to expect to find the same situation reflected there as well. And if that is so, it must also be likely that the Iranians have a specific historical identity in Vedic terms.

The historical identity of the Vedic Aryans themselves, as we have seen, is quite specific: this identity does not embrace all the tribes and peoples named in the Rigveda, but is confined to the PUrus (and particularly the Bharatas among them) who are alone called Aryas in the Rigveda.

All the other people, i.e. all non-PUrus, are called DAsas in the Rigveda. While it is natural to infer that the term DAsa was a general term for all non-PUrus as well as a specific term for the particular non-PUrus who existed “side by side” with the PUrus (i.e. for the Iranians), there must also have been a specific tribal name for these particular non-PUrus.

The Rigveda (in agreement with the PurANas) classifies the PUrus as one of the five tribes: namely, the Yadus, TurvaSas, Druhyus, Anus, PUrus (I.108.8 ). Prima facie, the Iranians must be identifiable with one of the remaining four.

Of the four, all sources locate the Yadus and TurvaSas together in the interior of India, and the Druhyus are located outside the frontiers of India. The most likely candidates are therefore the Anus who are located “side by side” with the PUrus in all geographical descriptions (and, incidentally, even in the enumeration of the names of the five tribes in I.108.8 ).

And an examination of the evidence demonstrates beyond the shadow of any doubt that the ancient Indian tribes of the Anus are identical with the ancient Iranians:

1. As we have already seen, the Indoaryan-Iranian conflict very definitely had an ANgiras-BhRgu dimension to it, with the ANgirases being the priests of the Indoaryans and the BhRgus being the priests of the Iranians: a situation reflected in the traditions of both the peoples.

This situation is also reflected in the Rigveda where the dominant priests of the text, and the particular or exclusive priests of the Bharatas (the Vedic Aryans), are the ANgirases: all the generations before SudAs have BharadvAjas as their priests (which, perhaps, explains the etymology of the name Bharad-vAja); SudAs himself has the Kutsas also as his priests (besides the new families of priests: the ViSvAmitras and the VasiSThas); and SudAs’s descendants Sahadeva and Somaka have the Kutsas and the VAmadevas as their priests.

The BhRgus are clearly not the priests of the Bharatas, and, equally clearly, they are associated with a particular other tribe: the Anus.

The names Anu and BhRgu are used interchangeably: compare V.31.4 with IV.16.20, and VII.18.14 with VII.18.6.

Griffith also recognizes the connection in his footnote to V.31.4, when he notes: “Anus: probably meaning BhRgus who belonged to that tribe.”

2. The Rigveda and the Avesta, as we saw, are united in testifying to the fact that the Punjab (Saptasindhu or Hapta-HAndu) was not a homeland of the Vedic Aryans, but was a homeland of the Iranians.

The PurANas as well as the Rigveda testify to the fact that the Punjab was a homeland of the Anus:

Pargiter notes the Puranic description of the spread of the Anus from the east and their occupation of the whole of the Punjab: “One branch headed by USInara established separate kingdoms on the eastern border of the Punjab, namely those of the Yaudheyas, AmbaSThas, NavarASTra and the city KRmilA; and his famous son Sivi originated the Sivis [footnote: called Sivas in Rigveda VII.18.7] in Sivapura, and extending his conquests westwards, founded through his four sons the kingdoms of the VRSadarbhas, Madras (or Madrakas), Kekayas (or Kaikeyas), and SuvIras (or SauvIras), thus occupying the whole of the Punjab except the north-west corner.”

In the Rigveda, the Anus are repeatedly identified with the ParuSNI river, the central river of the Punjab, as the PUrus are identified with the SarasvatI: in the DASarAjña battle, the Anus are clearly the people of the ParuSNI area and beyond. Likewise, another hymn which refers to the ParuSNI (VIII.74.15) also refers to the Anus (VIII.74.4).




Looks like I'm a Mohajir onlee, who came to Punjab after pushing Ahmedinejad out!

[fanne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

A steatite tablet unearthed from Mohenjo-daro (2600~1800 BCE) depicting a young boy uprooting two trees from which are emerging two human figures is an interesting archaeological find for fixing dates associated with Krishna. This image recalls the Yamalarjuna episode of Bhagavata and Harivamsa Purana. In this image, the young boy is undoubtedly Krishna, and the two human beings emerging from the trees are the two cursed Gandharvas, identified as Nalkubara & Manigriva. Dr. E.J.H. Mackay, who did the excavation at Mohanjodaro, compares this image with the Yamalarjuna episode. Prof. V.S. Agrawal has also accepted this identification. Thus, it seems that the Indus valley people knew stories related to Krishna. This lone find may not establish Krishna as contemporary with Pre-Indus or Indus times, but, likewise, it cannot be ignored. [17][18][19]

[Kanson]

India is a great country of various communities throughout its breadth and length. Its vastness is not only in landmass, it dwells in various rich cultures throughout that landmass. And here we cannot separate culture from history or that from religion or from science. You cannot speak one without the other.
While we take pride in the culture where we are born we must also take initiative to understand other culture which encompasses our Indian landmass. Easy to say but hard to put practice. Particularly in this modern world when we forgetting our own culture where is the question of learning another culture. These different cultures of course lead to differences. Unless there are differences we cannot progress & develop from our own.

This post is to do with AIT and talks about the sensitivities of those people that should be kept in mind in trying to discard AIT/AMT. While removing the thorn, no harm should come to the flower. Of course British utilized these differences. I'm putting this out to those who don't know some of the uniqueness of some culture which some explicitly used to their advantage. I'm sharing my own educative experience which is somewhat limited so it could be subjective and any error in this is mine. Apologies beforehand.

The culture is South Indian. Valmiki Ramayana and other Ramayana talks about presence of the same South Indian kingdoms, Chola, Pandya and Chera that we study in our textbook. Culture wise they do have a long lineage and with progressing time they do become distinctive. They do claim Saivism belongs to South India and what is Vedas to North & North Western India is same as Agamas to South India. While I studied my textbook said that Adi Sankara brought the revival of Hinduism but much before Sankara arrived at the scene, Tamil Saiva Saints(Nayanmars) from this lineage and Tamil Vaishnava Saints(Azhwars) came to the scene as early as 5th Century or before(exact date couldn't be ascertained) crisscrossed this country and uprooted other -isms. One can see the hymns of Saiva Saints inscribed in Kedarnath Temple near China border. One of the important activity of them is that they strengthened our Temple system their by Hinduism's reach to people. Full body of their works are not available. Only some portion remains for us to understand them but that itself is voluminous and they are in Tamil. And this lineage continues to this day.

(As a interlude I like to clarify that I grownup in the mold of Advaita and Ramakrisha/Vivekanda teachings and started to cover other areas later.)

Advaita branch has its own lineage as we all know. They do have a name Smartha. This class of people doesn't recognize the South Indian Saivism lineage as their one. And in turn SI Saivism started to immunize themselves from others. They called their philosophy as Sudh(a) Advaita which is again has linkage from Saiva Saints(Nayanmars) and their whole body of works and their activities became regiona and totally in the language of Tamill. And this continues till this day. One can see a visible difference in practice. To name one: we heard about several Brindhavan/Samadis(which they reach after they attain highest enlightenment) of great personalities like Adi Sankara in Kashmir, Sri Ragavendra near Cauvery bank and others, but in SI Saivism lineage, as I observed, symbol of highest enlightenment is by physically transforming themselves to God matter and disappear from our eyes. One of the latest & greatest in this lineage is Saint Ramalinga

(In my understanding and to my own term Sudh(a) Advaita can be said as illustrated or manifested Advaita, just a clarification if anyone wondering what it could be.)

So what could be considered as uniqueness is now turning into a fault line. As a result, Sankara mutts don't recognize kanchi Sankara mutt as their one. They only talk about four mutts.

Similarly, in Vaishnavism, they do have a lineage from Tamil Vaishnava Saints(Azhvars/Alvars) and Sri Ramanuja belonged to this lineage. During his time or could be before differences started appearing between Sanskrit and Tamil Scholars. It continued and this lineage split itself in two Vadakalai(Northern sect) and Thenkalai(Southern sect). Thenkalai are followers of Tamil Vaishnava saints they don't take their principles from Sanskrit scholars. Rise of Vijayanagar empire too seemed to have an effect on this( as people say).

I once made a faux pas of inquiring about Vendanta Desika in a temple that belongs to Thenkalai sect. Vendanta Desika belongs to Vadakalai as they call. I received a mouthful from the priest of that temple but he gave long explanation and it is educative for me. One thing which can be quoted here is he classified Vedanta Desika as Telugu speaker, cited many examples and addressed him and Northern Sect collectively as 'Aryans'. Thats when I know different communities use the term Aryan to denote different people.

Again a fault line was created and it exits till this day.

Unless we understand the sensitivities, we may cause more harm in our process to discard AIT/AMT theory.

[svinayak]

But it is another thing to invent a hypothetical language on guesses no matter how thought out, but still are assumptions, have no proof of PIE's existence and then re-write the history of a nation.

venug I am going to make a serious allegation here, but it will only be one more to add to all the accusations I have made about phonetics/

There appears to be sheer obscurantism and irresponsibility in the community of phonetic linguists by which they are quite happy to hide behind obscure symbols of a language and method of communication that they have created for themselves and are under no pressure to explain why they reach particular conclusions. Instead the predominant tactic seems to be to insist that they are right. This behavior is otherwise seen in Islamic mullahs passing fatwas.

This behavior is shown when the future of their 'civilization' is in doubt.
It is about defending their created image of the west and the advanced knowledge and antiquity of their language which needs to be defended. This started after 1850s and since then they had managed to keep things to their version. Advances in science and its impact on archaeology slowly eroded their position and this is one of the reason to even push back science.

In the outside the linguistics shows complexity which gives the impression of antiquity but once the arguments are seen it looks very simplistic and does not stand the logic and reason.

[RajeshA]

I would appeal to everybody to please read Talageri's Rig Veda: A Historical Analysis, linked above, especially Section II - Beyond the Rig Veda - Chapters 6 (The Indo-Iranian Homeland) and Chapter 7 (The Indo-European Homeland).

It is fascinating reading.

[shiv]

Quoting myself

There is piskology here folks. I kid you not. And as you know pisko affects leaders, scientists, linguists, archaeologists, phrenologists, philologists, historians, everyone, Even Pakis.

if you already have a mental picture that some language came to India and then became Sanskrit you will be hit by the disbelief of cognitive dissonance when someone suggests the most likely obvious theory and you will go into denial.

Quoting Arvind Talageri from RajeshA's link
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/ch6.htm

However, Witzel is compelled to admit that “it is not entirely clear where the combined Indo-Iranians lived together before they left for Iran and India, when they went on their separate ways, by what routes, and in what order”.13

As we can see, in spite of admitting that the evidence does not tell him “where the combined Indo-Iranians lived together”, he goes on with “before they left for Iran and India”. That they did not live together in either Iran or India is to him a foregone conclusion which requires no evidence.

There is thus a natural inbuilt bias in the minds of most scholars towards a conclusion favouring a movement into Iran and India from Central Asia, which is not based on evidence but on a theory which locates the original Indo-European homeland in South Russia, making Central Asia a convenient stopping point on the way to Iran and India.

[shiv]

From Talageri's book
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/ch6.htm

THE HISTORICAL IDENTITY OF THE IRANIANS

Gnoli points out that the Avesta reflects “an historical situation in which Iranian elements exist side by side with … Aryan or Proto-Indoaryan (elements)”.

Turning to the Rigveda, it is natural to expect to find the same situation reflected there as well. And if that is so, it must also be likely that the Iranians have a specific historical identity in Vedic terms.

The historical identity of the Vedic Aryans themselves, as we have seen, is quite specific: this identity does not embrace all the tribes and peoples named in the Rigveda, but is confined to the PUrus (and particularly the Bharatas among them) who are alone called Aryas in the Rigveda.

All the other people, i.e. all non-PUrus, are called DAsas in the Rigveda. While it is natural to infer that the term DAsa was a general term for all non-PUrus as well as a specific term for the particular non-PUrus who existed “side by side” with the PUrus (i.e. for the Iranians), there must also have been a specific tribal name for these particular non-PUrus.

The Rigveda (in agreement with the PurANas) classifies the PUrus as one of the five tribes: namely, the Yadus, TurvaSas, Druhyus, Anus, PUrus (I.108.8). Prima facie, the Iranians must be identifiable with one of the remaining four.

Of the four, all sources locate the Yadus and TurvaSas together in the interior of India, and the Druhyus are located outside the frontiers of India. The most likely candidates are therefore the Anus who are located “side by side” with the PUrus in all geographical descriptions (and, incidentally, even in the enumeration of the names of the five tribes in I.108.8).

And an examination of the evidence demonstrates beyond the shadow of any doubt that the ancient Indian tribes of the Anus are identical with the ancient Iranians:

[ramana]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati
I have learnt a lot from BRF members but the members tend to take the most difficult route first. The most natural route is invariably thought of as too easy == not good enough.

Ravig ji

Thanks for the link. After looking at the Gundestrup plate A there is almost no doubt in my mind that somehow the image of Pashupati seal of Mohenjodaro has made its way to Denmark. Also, the Ogress Hariti is eerily similar to the images of Indian goddesses. So the connections made by one Taylor to Vishnu and Lakshmi may very well be true and more archealogical evidence needs to be found.

raviG, Then show the easy way! All I am saying is use the names of Shiva to see if they can be used to fit the seals.

Kanson, I am ready to declare proto/ancient-Tamil is PIE.

Let them show its not.