The pivot to Asia is humbug. Its a diversion.
Primakov had once said Belarus is absolute critical to Russia.
Dont count too much on Europeans.
The logic that defense spending cuts will be deffered is the very logic spouted by the new Cold Warriors.
In the end its all about Third Rome.
Eastern Europe/Ukraine
-
UlanBatori
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 14045
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
OMG: Johann is here!!! 
Checking tickets for trip on Malaysian Airlines back to Ulan Bator caves.
But I do not see at this point why that is in Putin's interest, as Putin might perceive it. This is where NATO has erred grievously in its relentless expansion, looooong after the Cold War is over. From Putin's pov, the Soviet Union agreed to dismantle, rather than stand on H&D for another 50 years, because of an expectation that there could be peace in Europe and they could quit spending 70% of their economy on useless tanks and ICBMs (esp. when Ulan Bator WunderWeppons Inc had developed killer attack helicopters and missiles that more than neutralized the advantage of the tank armies, and Star Wars had neutralized the ICBM threat mostly).
That meant, they withdrew troops and tanks and fighter planes from the Warsaw Pact nations, and let them go free, as much as they cursed the Russians.
Now, 24 years and a generation later, they expect that the other side will keep their promise, and are tired of waiting. Because while the Warsaw Pact dismantled, NATO has simply gone on expanding.
ABM treaty is scrapped, ABMs are now at the gates of Russia in Poland, Turkey, etc. From the Russian pov, NATO expansion into Ukraine would be fait accompli - in another year or two if the EU-Ukraine pact had gone through. So they went all-out the peaceful way, trying to BUY Ukraine back into the Russian sphere. And succeeded, in FREE ELECTIONS.
NATO had no intention of allowing elections, democracy etc to stand in the way - out came the Color Revolution led by NeoNazis etc.
The Red Line has long-since been crossed, Johann. The Lesson From the Cold War is stark, and is the same as the Lesson From The Indian Wars or African Wars:
Ukraine going into EU is as good as NATO putting Pershing missiles and attack helicopters on the Russian border - and sending Blackwater in to destabilize heartland Russia. There will be plenty of veterans and their children left in Russia who will tell Putin that this is not what their comrades and fathers and mothers died to achieve. The descendants of the killers of Babi Yar are now ruling in Kiev. Didn't anyone in DupleeCity or Belgium see the utter, extreme, intolerable provocation in this? Are they THAT ignorant or filled with hubris?
So now BO can issue threats and impose Sanctions and issue even more threats, but they sound hollow. The language coming out of Russia is NOT the language of aggression - it is resignation to the reality that they will have to stand up and fight, no matter the hardship.
The choice facing Putin IMO is stark:
a) Allow the NATO border to be the Russia border
b) Push the NATO border to the Dnieper River.
The third option: Ukraine as a not-so-friendly but free and powerfully obnoxious East European nation, acting as a buffer between Russia and NATO, vaporized the instant NATO orchestrated the Color Revolution. To my reading, there can be no doubt in this, as to who the aggressor party is. Sorry.
The interesting point is just how far the Babi Yar perps will go this time around in crushing the Independence Movement in Donetz - and how much Putin's vodka brigades will wait and tolerate. I would think that as I type this, a couple of dozen vodka bottles will have crossed the border.
Checking tickets for trip on Malaysian Airlines back to Ulan Bator caves.leave Ukraine alone
But I do not see at this point why that is in Putin's interest, as Putin might perceive it. This is where NATO has erred grievously in its relentless expansion, looooong after the Cold War is over. From Putin's pov, the Soviet Union agreed to dismantle, rather than stand on H&D for another 50 years, because of an expectation that there could be peace in Europe and they could quit spending 70% of their economy on useless tanks and ICBMs (esp. when Ulan Bator WunderWeppons Inc had developed killer attack helicopters and missiles that more than neutralized the advantage of the tank armies, and Star Wars had neutralized the ICBM threat mostly).
That meant, they withdrew troops and tanks and fighter planes from the Warsaw Pact nations, and let them go free, as much as they cursed the Russians.
Now, 24 years and a generation later, they expect that the other side will keep their promise, and are tired of waiting. Because while the Warsaw Pact dismantled, NATO has simply gone on expanding.
ABM treaty is scrapped, ABMs are now at the gates of Russia in Poland, Turkey, etc. From the Russian pov, NATO expansion into Ukraine would be fait accompli - in another year or two if the EU-Ukraine pact had gone through. So they went all-out the peaceful way, trying to BUY Ukraine back into the Russian sphere. And succeeded, in FREE ELECTIONS.
NATO had no intention of allowing elections, democracy etc to stand in the way - out came the Color Revolution led by NeoNazis etc.
The Red Line has long-since been crossed, Johann. The Lesson From the Cold War is stark, and is the same as the Lesson From The Indian Wars or African Wars:
_________ speak with forked tongue
Ukraine going into EU is as good as NATO putting Pershing missiles and attack helicopters on the Russian border - and sending Blackwater in to destabilize heartland Russia. There will be plenty of veterans and their children left in Russia who will tell Putin that this is not what their comrades and fathers and mothers died to achieve. The descendants of the killers of Babi Yar are now ruling in Kiev. Didn't anyone in DupleeCity or Belgium see the utter, extreme, intolerable provocation in this? Are they THAT ignorant or filled with hubris?
So now BO can issue threats and impose Sanctions and issue even more threats, but they sound hollow. The language coming out of Russia is NOT the language of aggression - it is resignation to the reality that they will have to stand up and fight, no matter the hardship.
The choice facing Putin IMO is stark:
a) Allow the NATO border to be the Russia border
b) Push the NATO border to the Dnieper River.
The third option: Ukraine as a not-so-friendly but free and powerfully obnoxious East European nation, acting as a buffer between Russia and NATO, vaporized the instant NATO orchestrated the Color Revolution. To my reading, there can be no doubt in this, as to who the aggressor party is. Sorry.
The interesting point is just how far the Babi Yar perps will go this time around in crushing the Independence Movement in Donetz - and how much Putin's vodka brigades will wait and tolerate. I would think that as I type this, a couple of dozen vodka bottles will have crossed the border.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
What's left of the Ukraine able and-a-willing to join NATO will not include Kiev,part of the heart and soul of Mother Russia.If anyone thinks that Putin will allow the Ukraine to have NATO mil. forces on its territory has completely misunderstood Russia.NATO are deluding themselves ,probably high on hash if they think that Russia will EVER allow NATO to squat here.There is no agreement with NATO unlike some other former Warsaw pact nations that have crossed over post CW.
It is astonishing that the West is not taking seriously the Russian proposal for joint talks with all stakeholders to keep Ukraine together,but with a new constitution which allows its regions greater autonomy.When Britain can hold in September a referendum which may see Scotland leave the UK and ditch the Queen as head of state,to prevent the Ukranians from holding their own referendums smacks of the most naked example of self-righteous sanctimonious hypocritical humbug!
The Euro-Peons and the Yanquis have pygmies as leaders in comparison,who have exhausted the will of their people to engage in global wars .Beating the retreat with tails tucked well between their legs as I predicted a decade ago,from Iraq and Af-Pak is all that they're capable of today.The wheel has turned full circle for neo-imperialism from the West.Asia is not just stirring but flexing its muscles.Russia and China are being forced to come together to resist the West and the huge magnetic force that is developing thanks to post CW petit-colonialism from the ranks of NATO is also pushing India and the BRICS nations into a closer bonding. The emergence of a new dispensation in India,more nationalistic and infinitely less willing to lick the backside of Uncle Sam or Ca-Moron,or Frau Mark-Ill,is just around the corner.Watch this space!
http://rt.com/news/
Russian FM calls on Kiev, Washington to recognize interests of all Ukraine regions
Moscow is urging to provide for Ukraine’s eastern and southern regions to take part in the upcoming talks with Kiev, Russia, the US, and EU on the current crisis, says FM Sergey Lavrov.
The West,which possess thousands of N-weapons and have conducted hundreds of N-tests cannot tolerate any nation from possessing these weapons which give them an insurance policy against western mil. invasion,as Iraq ,Libya,etc.,found out to their dismay.The prospect of the BJP coming to power,the party which conducted the P-2 N-tests is giving nightmares to the nuclear bullies of the White House,No.10,et al. Which is why they are doing everything possible right now to prevent the BJP/NDA from coming to power and Mr.Modi as PM,through insidious slanted media attacks against the parties concerned,and using their quislings of the AAP to destabilise the nation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -weapons[b]
Indian election alarm as BJP raises prospect of nuclear weapons rethink[/b]
Hindu nationalist opposition party, which is tipped to win lower house majority, causes concern with manifesto
What about the "Christian right wing extremist Conservative Party" of the UK and its interventionist policies as windbag Hague has been expelling from his nether end,against Russia?
Mr.Modi,speaking in Delhi:
"There should be a strong government in Delhi so that the world doesn't threaten us. We need to hold our heads high and match the world," Modi said in Delhi."
It is astonishing that the West is not taking seriously the Russian proposal for joint talks with all stakeholders to keep Ukraine together,but with a new constitution which allows its regions greater autonomy.When Britain can hold in September a referendum which may see Scotland leave the UK and ditch the Queen as head of state,to prevent the Ukranians from holding their own referendums smacks of the most naked example of self-righteous sanctimonious hypocritical humbug!
The Euro-Peons and the Yanquis have pygmies as leaders in comparison,who have exhausted the will of their people to engage in global wars .Beating the retreat with tails tucked well between their legs as I predicted a decade ago,from Iraq and Af-Pak is all that they're capable of today.The wheel has turned full circle for neo-imperialism from the West.Asia is not just stirring but flexing its muscles.Russia and China are being forced to come together to resist the West and the huge magnetic force that is developing thanks to post CW petit-colonialism from the ranks of NATO is also pushing India and the BRICS nations into a closer bonding. The emergence of a new dispensation in India,more nationalistic and infinitely less willing to lick the backside of Uncle Sam or Ca-Moron,or Frau Mark-Ill,is just around the corner.Watch this space!
http://rt.com/news/
Russian FM calls on Kiev, Washington to recognize interests of all Ukraine regions
Moscow is urging to provide for Ukraine’s eastern and southern regions to take part in the upcoming talks with Kiev, Russia, the US, and EU on the current crisis, says FM Sergey Lavrov.
The West,which possess thousands of N-weapons and have conducted hundreds of N-tests cannot tolerate any nation from possessing these weapons which give them an insurance policy against western mil. invasion,as Iraq ,Libya,etc.,found out to their dismay.The prospect of the BJP coming to power,the party which conducted the P-2 N-tests is giving nightmares to the nuclear bullies of the White House,No.10,et al. Which is why they are doing everything possible right now to prevent the BJP/NDA from coming to power and Mr.Modi as PM,through insidious slanted media attacks against the parties concerned,and using their quislings of the AAP to destabilise the nation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -weapons[b]
Indian election alarm as BJP raises prospect of nuclear weapons rethink[/b]
Hindu nationalist opposition party, which is tipped to win lower house majority, causes concern with manifesto
What about the "Christian right wing extremist Conservative Party" of the UK and its interventionist policies as windbag Hague has been expelling from his nether end,against Russia?
Mr.Modi,speaking in Delhi:
"There should be a strong government in Delhi so that the world doesn't threaten us. We need to hold our heads high and match the world," Modi said in Delhi."
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
O Mongolian Sage.
Firstly, Ukraine on a NATO accession path is only likely *if* Putin annexes more of the country. 40,000 troops may seem like a lot, but its not if you actually think you're going to fight a war against another state. He's a game player - I suspect he'll only move if he thinks Western and Ukrainian reaction will be weak, and if he think's its strong he can use the crisis to gain concessions, such as a more formal commitment to keeping Ukraine out of NATO.
Yes, its definitely true that the Russian view is that NATO should have either dissolved with the Warsaw Pact, not grown added former WP and Soviet republics.
But the EU and NATO are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
Finland is a classic example of a country that chose to bare its neck to the Soviet in military and geopolitical terms while remaining economically part of the West and the EU. Austria was another. Both joined the EU.
Germany, the prime mover in the EU's eastward expansion has maintained an *excellent* working relationship with Putin's Russia built around common economic interests, and shared annoyance over US hyper-interventionism. Not to mention close ties with Berlusconi's Italy.
Ukraine's membership in NATO was off the table. When it comes to expansion, NATO works on consensus. There were far more European states doing business with Russia to want to disrupt that by adding Ukraine, especially when there was so little to be gained from it given Putin's reaction to the addition of the Baltic republics.
In fact the Russians and NATO had established a good working relationship with regards to Afghanistan in terms of the Northern Distribution Network.
No, this did not start because of NATO, but it will go there if Putin choses to carve up Ukraine and add to Russia's territory.
p.s. if Ukraine continues on the EU accession path it *has* to liberalise and democratise its political system. You can call it racism if you like, but while the EU will do business with dictatorships, it won't let them into its own house. Remember Jorg Haider in Austria? Or how much grief this guy Oban in Hungary is getting? The EU exists in part to make sure that there is no repeat of the 1930s and 1940s in Europe. It simply can not afford it.
Its nice that you're so excited about standing up for the Russians, but living in Russia, and Ukraine is really, really hard as I'm sure you know from the engineers who come across. You can see it from the emigration patterns, in the youth mortality. A middle class Indian citizen in Bihar has it *much* better in terms of what he can expect from the state than a middle class Russian from Stavropol. And certainly more optimism about the future. Putin defends the Russian state instead of cannibalising it like Yeltsin's cronies did, but like Yeltsin's Russia the state and most of the same billionaire cronies are still cannibalising the general population. Most of the former Soviet Union has exactly the same political pathologies. Putin thinks that if the political system changes, and it becomes like the rest of Europe then somehow Russia will fall apart.
Young educated Ukrainians *desperately* want a) the freedom to travel, live and study in the EU and b) more transparency and accountability in their government. So do young Russians, but they have no hope of joining the EU - although the Russian state is demanding visa free travel. Why should they be optimistic that EU membership can bring real change? Because they've seen what happened next door in Poland, in Romania, in Bulgaria, in Slovakia and the Baltic Republics. That experience is more relevant to them than the experience of Mediterranean countries who never lived under communism, or experienced the chaos after it fell. These countries have real problems (Romania and Bulgaria are still way poorer and more corrupt than the EU average), but people aren't afraid to go to the police. They don't have to pay a bribe to get everything done. Fewer people pay protection money. And you can get a good job with more than just connections. But these changes involved fundamental political transformations that someone with KGB training could never accept or respect. He'd rather break Ukraine than risk contamination. Its an extreme reaction to change, and it will change very little.
As I said in the previous post, it will actually do a lot of damage. Firstly, he loses the bulk of Ukraine, for a very, very long time to come. Not just the geopolitical space, but the people. You tend to remember it when your neighbour invades you and carves you up because they didnt like you changing your government. Especially if there's been a history of that. Secondly Russia is going to have to integrate this region its grabbed. That will be expensive, and could be ugly. And there is the larger effect on all neighbours with Russian populations. Putin will look strong for a fleeting second to those who have a problem with the Americans, but the problems he has to deal with are cancerous. None of those cheering him on are going to be there to help with those.
Firstly, Ukraine on a NATO accession path is only likely *if* Putin annexes more of the country. 40,000 troops may seem like a lot, but its not if you actually think you're going to fight a war against another state. He's a game player - I suspect he'll only move if he thinks Western and Ukrainian reaction will be weak, and if he think's its strong he can use the crisis to gain concessions, such as a more formal commitment to keeping Ukraine out of NATO.
Yes, its definitely true that the Russian view is that NATO should have either dissolved with the Warsaw Pact, not grown added former WP and Soviet republics.
But the EU and NATO are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
Finland is a classic example of a country that chose to bare its neck to the Soviet in military and geopolitical terms while remaining economically part of the West and the EU. Austria was another. Both joined the EU.
Germany, the prime mover in the EU's eastward expansion has maintained an *excellent* working relationship with Putin's Russia built around common economic interests, and shared annoyance over US hyper-interventionism. Not to mention close ties with Berlusconi's Italy.
Ukraine's membership in NATO was off the table. When it comes to expansion, NATO works on consensus. There were far more European states doing business with Russia to want to disrupt that by adding Ukraine, especially when there was so little to be gained from it given Putin's reaction to the addition of the Baltic republics.
In fact the Russians and NATO had established a good working relationship with regards to Afghanistan in terms of the Northern Distribution Network.
No, this did not start because of NATO, but it will go there if Putin choses to carve up Ukraine and add to Russia's territory.
p.s. if Ukraine continues on the EU accession path it *has* to liberalise and democratise its political system. You can call it racism if you like, but while the EU will do business with dictatorships, it won't let them into its own house. Remember Jorg Haider in Austria? Or how much grief this guy Oban in Hungary is getting? The EU exists in part to make sure that there is no repeat of the 1930s and 1940s in Europe. It simply can not afford it.
Its nice that you're so excited about standing up for the Russians, but living in Russia, and Ukraine is really, really hard as I'm sure you know from the engineers who come across. You can see it from the emigration patterns, in the youth mortality. A middle class Indian citizen in Bihar has it *much* better in terms of what he can expect from the state than a middle class Russian from Stavropol. And certainly more optimism about the future. Putin defends the Russian state instead of cannibalising it like Yeltsin's cronies did, but like Yeltsin's Russia the state and most of the same billionaire cronies are still cannibalising the general population. Most of the former Soviet Union has exactly the same political pathologies. Putin thinks that if the political system changes, and it becomes like the rest of Europe then somehow Russia will fall apart.
Young educated Ukrainians *desperately* want a) the freedom to travel, live and study in the EU and b) more transparency and accountability in their government. So do young Russians, but they have no hope of joining the EU - although the Russian state is demanding visa free travel. Why should they be optimistic that EU membership can bring real change? Because they've seen what happened next door in Poland, in Romania, in Bulgaria, in Slovakia and the Baltic Republics. That experience is more relevant to them than the experience of Mediterranean countries who never lived under communism, or experienced the chaos after it fell. These countries have real problems (Romania and Bulgaria are still way poorer and more corrupt than the EU average), but people aren't afraid to go to the police. They don't have to pay a bribe to get everything done. Fewer people pay protection money. And you can get a good job with more than just connections. But these changes involved fundamental political transformations that someone with KGB training could never accept or respect. He'd rather break Ukraine than risk contamination. Its an extreme reaction to change, and it will change very little.
As I said in the previous post, it will actually do a lot of damage. Firstly, he loses the bulk of Ukraine, for a very, very long time to come. Not just the geopolitical space, but the people. You tend to remember it when your neighbour invades you and carves you up because they didnt like you changing your government. Especially if there's been a history of that. Secondly Russia is going to have to integrate this region its grabbed. That will be expensive, and could be ugly. And there is the larger effect on all neighbours with Russian populations. Putin will look strong for a fleeting second to those who have a problem with the Americans, but the problems he has to deal with are cancerous. None of those cheering him on are going to be there to help with those.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Johann, It wont go the NATO way unless Europe and US want to up the ante. Ukraine has contentious issues with its neighbor and that is a no-no for the NATO membership.
Also a middle class Indian from Bihar is not a Neo-Nazi as the rioters have been shown to be.
And Ukraine has had its issue with Russia after FSU collapse. They have been selling tanks to TSP as Russia was selling to India.
So dont cry for me Ukraine!
Also a middle class Indian from Bihar is not a Neo-Nazi as the rioters have been shown to be.
And Ukraine has had its issue with Russia after FSU collapse. They have been selling tanks to TSP as Russia was selling to India.
So dont cry for me Ukraine!
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Hi Johann:
>>But the EU and NATO are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
That is what they said for the Baltics and general expansion to the east at the time of German reunification, a broken promise and a sore point for Putin's Russia.
>>Finland is a classic example of a country that chose to bare its neck to the Soviet in military and geopolitical terms while remaining economically part of the West and the EU. Austria was another. Both joined the EU.
Finland is smart. Finland knows that as long as it does not give a reason to the bear to be worried by inviting its opponents to its shores, Finland has no reason to fear, being largely Lutheran, with very low populations of Orthodox and hence not of strategic interest to the Russians.
It is quite clear that Putin will look to create a buffer zone between NATO and its borders. They have drawn a red line with Ukraine. What will be of interest is to see, what happens in the Baltics, as it is already breached and Russian demographics and economic interests are not the same as in Ukraine. Maybe the Russians will strike a deal with Germany for the Baltics.
>>But the EU and NATO are not the same thing, not by a long shot.
That is what they said for the Baltics and general expansion to the east at the time of German reunification, a broken promise and a sore point for Putin's Russia.
>>Finland is a classic example of a country that chose to bare its neck to the Soviet in military and geopolitical terms while remaining economically part of the West and the EU. Austria was another. Both joined the EU.
Finland is smart. Finland knows that as long as it does not give a reason to the bear to be worried by inviting its opponents to its shores, Finland has no reason to fear, being largely Lutheran, with very low populations of Orthodox and hence not of strategic interest to the Russians.
It is quite clear that Putin will look to create a buffer zone between NATO and its borders. They have drawn a red line with Ukraine. What will be of interest is to see, what happens in the Baltics, as it is already breached and Russian demographics and economic interests are not the same as in Ukraine. Maybe the Russians will strike a deal with Germany for the Baltics.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Gloves are off
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-0 ... urity.html
Russia Urges Companies to Delist Abroad Amid Sanctions
April 8 (Bloomberg) -- Bloomberg Contributing Editor Richard Falkenrath discusses the Ukraine crisis on Bloomberg Television's “Bloomberg Surveillance.” (Source: Bloomberg)
Russia urged companies to delist their shares from overseas stock exchanges and trade in Moscow in an effort to safeguard them as international sanctions mount against the country after its takeover of Crimea.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-0 ... urity.html
Russia Urges Companies to Delist Abroad Amid Sanctions
April 8 (Bloomberg) -- Bloomberg Contributing Editor Richard Falkenrath discusses the Ukraine crisis on Bloomberg Television's “Bloomberg Surveillance.” (Source: Bloomberg)
Russia urged companies to delist their shares from overseas stock exchanges and trade in Moscow in an effort to safeguard them as international sanctions mount against the country after its takeover of Crimea.
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UlanBatori
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 14045
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Johann: Actually I am not "standing up for Russia": I am trying to present the issues as might be seen through Russian eyes, in the vain hope that some slight intelligence will percolate into Washington and head off a massive catastrophe.
The incident with the extortion scam against the Indian diplomats (and other foreign diplomats) and the incredibly ham-handed, dim-witted behavior of US diplomats in India, woke me up to the extreme competence crisis in the US State Department. The Ukraine crisis came right on the heels of that - and the hot air emanating from Washington clearly shows that American foreign policy is being led by idiots.
As you know, Ukrainians have for a very long, long time had no reason to love Moscow. The ones I know smile politely and ominously when someone says: "Don't ever refer to her as a Russian!" Same situation with Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. So I don't agree that Putin has "lost" Ukraine: in fact I was amazed when Arsenic's predecessor signed a deal with Moscow overcoming his tilt towards the EU. In that case, Putin had to mollycoddle an obnoxious crook, ruling an even more obnoxious nation that fancied itself as being as powerful as Russia.
The US/EU Sanctions will obviously hurt Russia, but the Russian FM's statement was what sent the chills down my spine: he referred to the fact that the sanctions would hurt, but "we have been through tougher times before". If that did NOT send chills down any tailbones in DC, then we have a very serious IQ problem in Foggy Bottom and Langley.
In the past few weeks we have seen growing PRO-Russia demonstrations in Ukraine, first in Crimea and now on the east side of the Dnieper. These might have been unthinkable in 1990, or 10 years ago. So instead of an obnoxious neighbor with massive industrial capacity and a nice warmwater coastline for Naval access, Russia now has a nice warmwater coastline with Naval access and complete dominance of the Black Sea, plus a FRIENDLY and supportive buffer zone (East Ukraine). Why is this a loss for Putin?
If I were (north/west) Ukrainian I would be watching my country get dismembered, losing the prized Crimean coastline, and next the Dnieper access to Kiev, and the eastern provinces. Doesn't sound like a victory to me.
Last point: about living conditions in Ukraine and Russia. As bad as things may be, they have improved dramatically since the desperate poverty of 1990. The photos of Ukrainian cities are stunning: OK, maybe the city centers were built for the powerful Communist Party leaders and Privileged Classes. The buildings, even the Navy barracks down in Crimea, look like nice stucco buildings with US-style fixtures, lots of nice late-model cars on the streets, all power lines, telegraph lines etc buried... the people don't look very starved either.
The incident with the extortion scam against the Indian diplomats (and other foreign diplomats) and the incredibly ham-handed, dim-witted behavior of US diplomats in India, woke me up to the extreme competence crisis in the US State Department. The Ukraine crisis came right on the heels of that - and the hot air emanating from Washington clearly shows that American foreign policy is being led by idiots.
As you know, Ukrainians have for a very long, long time had no reason to love Moscow. The ones I know smile politely and ominously when someone says: "Don't ever refer to her as a Russian!" Same situation with Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. So I don't agree that Putin has "lost" Ukraine: in fact I was amazed when Arsenic's predecessor signed a deal with Moscow overcoming his tilt towards the EU. In that case, Putin had to mollycoddle an obnoxious crook, ruling an even more obnoxious nation that fancied itself as being as powerful as Russia.
The US/EU Sanctions will obviously hurt Russia, but the Russian FM's statement was what sent the chills down my spine: he referred to the fact that the sanctions would hurt, but "we have been through tougher times before". If that did NOT send chills down any tailbones in DC, then we have a very serious IQ problem in Foggy Bottom and Langley.
In the past few weeks we have seen growing PRO-Russia demonstrations in Ukraine, first in Crimea and now on the east side of the Dnieper. These might have been unthinkable in 1990, or 10 years ago. So instead of an obnoxious neighbor with massive industrial capacity and a nice warmwater coastline for Naval access, Russia now has a nice warmwater coastline with Naval access and complete dominance of the Black Sea, plus a FRIENDLY and supportive buffer zone (East Ukraine). Why is this a loss for Putin?
If I were (north/west) Ukrainian I would be watching my country get dismembered, losing the prized Crimean coastline, and next the Dnieper access to Kiev, and the eastern provinces. Doesn't sound like a victory to me.
Last point: about living conditions in Ukraine and Russia. As bad as things may be, they have improved dramatically since the desperate poverty of 1990. The photos of Ukrainian cities are stunning: OK, maybe the city centers were built for the powerful Communist Party leaders and Privileged Classes. The buildings, even the Navy barracks down in Crimea, look like nice stucco buildings with US-style fixtures, lots of nice late-model cars on the streets, all power lines, telegraph lines etc buried... the people don't look very starved either.
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member_28502
- BRFite
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
small nit pickCzechoslovakia
Czech and Slovakia
They also don't like to be called anymore Czechs
Now Slovakians and Czechs
But duhb-"yah" also was confused and when introduced Solevnia he corrected the ADC as you mean Solvakia
of course both share border with Austria he quipped after realizing the mistake
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vijaykarthik
- BRFite
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
isn't it that NATo doesn't allow / prefer countries becoming members if there is an ongoing border dispute? I remember reading that somewhere.
Besides, its not perhaps the NATO. I tend to think of stuff in more simplistic terms. Its the damned US influence / intervention or whatever one should call it. All the while, the Caucasus was reasonably silent and US and EU decide to come closer to Russia [thinking in terms of unfinished business after the cold war? Lots of reports which speculate that as a possible reason too.] and get closer with the nations and try and encircle Russia. While it might be an interesting idea to encircle Russia, not expecting a backlash and going forward in a carefree manner -- well, I will stick my neck out and say, you deserve it, you idiots... for not planning properly. And looking at the tepid and unclear response and way things have panned out, it does look like they never even thought of a response from Russia. And it never ceases to amaze me that people didn't do their homework and naturally assumed Russia will be gleeful and be happy about the fact that therein lies a possibility of a NATO base setup 190 kms away from the Russian border. How nice and sweet life sometimes is dreamt to be.
It didn't start because of the NATO though. It was more because of a EUAA / ECU fight and Ukraine was yanked on both ends before Yanukovych was sort of strong armed by Putin. However, assuming that things are going to be rosy if they join the EU is a joke. Just you ask the Greeks / the rest of the sufferers.
BTW, on to more interesting topics: If I asked a question, what will your take be: will Russia look at invading the E Ukraine by end of this month? Pro-Russians or armed forces?
Will help me to establish a base rate. thanks!
[And while we are at it, it does look like NATO has verbally agreed not to extend membership to Georgia & Ukraine]. I am most interested in the NK regions now that are hotly contested between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Besides, its not perhaps the NATO. I tend to think of stuff in more simplistic terms. Its the damned US influence / intervention or whatever one should call it. All the while, the Caucasus was reasonably silent and US and EU decide to come closer to Russia [thinking in terms of unfinished business after the cold war? Lots of reports which speculate that as a possible reason too.] and get closer with the nations and try and encircle Russia. While it might be an interesting idea to encircle Russia, not expecting a backlash and going forward in a carefree manner -- well, I will stick my neck out and say, you deserve it, you idiots... for not planning properly. And looking at the tepid and unclear response and way things have panned out, it does look like they never even thought of a response from Russia. And it never ceases to amaze me that people didn't do their homework and naturally assumed Russia will be gleeful and be happy about the fact that therein lies a possibility of a NATO base setup 190 kms away from the Russian border. How nice and sweet life sometimes is dreamt to be.
It didn't start because of the NATO though. It was more because of a EUAA / ECU fight and Ukraine was yanked on both ends before Yanukovych was sort of strong armed by Putin. However, assuming that things are going to be rosy if they join the EU is a joke. Just you ask the Greeks / the rest of the sufferers.
BTW, on to more interesting topics: If I asked a question, what will your take be: will Russia look at invading the E Ukraine by end of this month? Pro-Russians or armed forces?
Will help me to establish a base rate. thanks!
[And while we are at it, it does look like NATO has verbally agreed not to extend membership to Georgia & Ukraine]. I am most interested in the NK regions now that are hotly contested between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
I think Russia, Venezuela, Iran and Sudan should get together and attack the petro dollar economically. USA without any manufacturing base is just a house of cards.
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
I think Russia already is. Grin.
the 20bn cash fir kind deal with Iran. Besides, Rosneft ceo is planning on devising a system to exchange oil through rubles. [I will personally prefer a basket of currencies. Besides, the yuan has more strength?]
Interesting days. Slowly, slowly the cards are coming out. About time too. I still prefer a basket of currencies so no single country can establish dominance. How much time does it take is the next big question
the 20bn cash fir kind deal with Iran. Besides, Rosneft ceo is planning on devising a system to exchange oil through rubles. [I will personally prefer a basket of currencies. Besides, the yuan has more strength?]
Interesting days. Slowly, slowly the cards are coming out. About time too. I still prefer a basket of currencies so no single country can establish dominance. How much time does it take is the next big question
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
There's so much hate for the US in this room, it's almost palpable. I love to get my daily read of the Vladimir Putin Fan Club. Keep up the good work!
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
I can speak for myself here. I am a neutral to the best of my abilities. So, I support US as much as Russia [but lean Russia more nowadays as I prefer the underdog. grin]
However, I am more for an inclusive governance. The unipolar hegemonic [read demonic] regime changing, my way or highway mentality of the US HAS to change. Regardless of whether its capitalistic, making us richer, more democratic etc. The more I see democracy and the ways it functions, the more I think its a joke on the people.
Doesn't mean I support communism... but just a thought. Democracy where all points are supported well and are well-represented -->I am all for it. The current 'democratic' setup is just a bunch of goons with mass weapons located strategically, making people accede to requests through coercion or force (everywhere you turn, you are encircled and hence have to take a sub optimal solution that is thrust on you). --this doesn't seem democratic to me.
My 0.02$
However, I am more for an inclusive governance. The unipolar hegemonic [read demonic] regime changing, my way or highway mentality of the US HAS to change. Regardless of whether its capitalistic, making us richer, more democratic etc. The more I see democracy and the ways it functions, the more I think its a joke on the people.
Doesn't mean I support communism... but just a thought. Democracy where all points are supported well and are well-represented -->I am all for it. The current 'democratic' setup is just a bunch of goons with mass weapons located strategically, making people accede to requests through coercion or force (everywhere you turn, you are encircled and hence have to take a sub optimal solution that is thrust on you). --this doesn't seem democratic to me.
My 0.02$
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Vijay,
The Russian people themselves rejected communism. Capitalism and democracies, warts and all, are still better than communism in representing the will of the collective people. For all of the love of communism in this room, look at the naxals in India. What are they? By the way, for all you Russophiles, I'd much rather take the subway in NY (which I have often) than step foot on the Moscow metro and get my ass beaten due to my skin color. It's funny how much Russian association there is in this thread but chances are most of you would be treated like third class citizens in the country you admire. As far as I am concerned, no country has unclean hands. I live in the United States and love it. I love India as well. I just find the hatred of the US on here virulent, palpable and pathetic. Esp, a certain poster's infatuation with Mr. Putin and derogatory terminology for President Obama, Prime Minister Singh and AK. Antony.
The Russian people themselves rejected communism. Capitalism and democracies, warts and all, are still better than communism in representing the will of the collective people. For all of the love of communism in this room, look at the naxals in India. What are they? By the way, for all you Russophiles, I'd much rather take the subway in NY (which I have often) than step foot on the Moscow metro and get my ass beaten due to my skin color. It's funny how much Russian association there is in this thread but chances are most of you would be treated like third class citizens in the country you admire. As far as I am concerned, no country has unclean hands. I live in the United States and love it. I love India as well. I just find the hatred of the US on here virulent, palpable and pathetic. Esp, a certain poster's infatuation with Mr. Putin and derogatory terminology for President Obama, Prime Minister Singh and AK. Antony.
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member_28352
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Last I checked both Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany and the US and its poodle, UK were all capitalist countries. So where do you see the love for communism in this room?
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
ShankarCag, you can go back and re-read the thread just as well as I can. The answer is ridiculously simple. Thanks.
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member_28352
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
I get it. Its quite simple actually. When asked for proof you spit and scoot. Thank you also.Anant wrote:ShankarCag, you can go back and re-read the thread just as well as I can. The answer is ridiculously simple. Thanks.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Who is the biggest creditor and supplier of arms to Pakistan?Anant wrote:Vijay,
The Russian people themselves rejected communism. Capitalism and democracies, warts and all, are still better than communism in representing the will of the collective people. For all of the love of communism in this room, look at the naxals in India. What are they? By the way, for all you Russophiles, I'd much rather take the subway in NY (which I have often) than step foot on the Moscow metro and get my ass beaten due to my skin color. It's funny how much Russian association there is in this thread but chances are most of you would be treated like third class citizens in the country you admire. As far as I am concerned, no country has unclean hands. I live in the United States and love it. I love India as well. I just find the hatred of the US on here virulent, palpable and pathetic. Esp, a certain poster's infatuation with Mr. Putin and derogatory terminology for President Obama, Prime Minister Singh and AK. Antony.
Who did wink wink when China was supplying MTCR prohibited missiles to Pakistan?
Who gave political shelter at international level to Pak-sponsored terror in India?
Who destroyed 1993 Blast evidence?
Who sheltered DCH?
Who imposed sanctions of India post-Pokhran and who did not?
Who created all the alphabet soup organizations and impose technology denial regime on India?
Please do some homework. Those supporting Russia may not have any intention or wish to board a Moscow subway, but they want to board a Mumbai local without the fear of a bomb blast destroying their families. Get real Sir, too much of staying abroad sometimes can cause a severe distortion in understanding priorities of Indians living in India.
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
@Anant -- I think you are doing a great disservice to yourself. I really *meant* it when I mentioned that I am a neutral and I don't appreciate finger pointing when its not called for.
Besides, lets be fair. When I said I support Russia, I also meant that its because I support the underdog. That makes me a underdog-phile. Not a Russophile as you mistakenly think.
Besides, lets be fair. When I said I support Russia, I also meant that its because I support the underdog. That makes me a underdog-phile. Not a Russophile as you mistakenly think.
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munna
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
No thank you sir. What you say may or may not happen to an average Indian traveling on the Moscow Metro. All I know is that Russian Federation or for that matter its much powerful predecessor never ever stripped an accredited diplomat of my nation on its soil. The blatant humiliation of a country's official on trumped up and concocted charges, if it can happen to a diplomat, what can average abdul expect? Land of freedom I see. Freedom to be stripped and humiliated?Anant wrote: What are they? By the way, for all you Russophiles, I'd much rather take the subway in NY (which I have often) than step foot on the Moscow metro and get my ass beaten due to my skin color. It's funny how much Russian association there is in this thread but chances are most of you would be treated like third class citizens in the country you admire.
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
A pertinent link. Longish but beautiful on identity-protection cognition.
http://www.vox.com/2014/4/6/5556462/bra ... -us-stupid
http://www.vox.com/2014/4/6/5556462/bra ... -us-stupid
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Let us get this straight... Russia has always helped us in our direst of times and for this they will always have our gratitude and also our support whenever going gets tough for them. Well, we have already done plenty in terms of economic assistance by virtue of buying their military equipement especially the case of air craft carrier. What system Russia follows is irrelevant, we still need a nation a like Russia to be strong in this uni-polar world. So, for me, it is clear India should support Russia with close eye on US.
US/west is prosperous because of their military power and trade. So, the people in those nations are much more relaxed about a brown guy walking around in their land. I can bet that when things go downhill for them, all the brown guys will be hounded! So those already on US land, enjoy the seemed freedom while it lasts.
Bottomline - More power to US/west is not in our interests.
US/west is prosperous because of their military power and trade. So, the people in those nations are much more relaxed about a brown guy walking around in their land. I can bet that when things go downhill for them, all the brown guys will be hounded! So those already on US land, enjoy the seemed freedom while it lasts.
Bottomline - More power to US/west is not in our interests.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Well, this is an Indian board, not an American one. So tough, bro.Anant wrote:There's so much hate for the US in this room, it's almost palpable. I love to get my daily read of the Vladimir Putin Fan Club. Keep up the good work!
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UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Counterexample: Turkey and Greece??NATo doesn't allow / prefer countries becoming members if there is an ongoing border dispute? I remember reading that somewhere.
NATO has verbally agreed not to
The Russian pov (note: stating their pov does not constitute endorsement, just recognizing their pov!!) is that what NATO says today has no relation to what NATO does while saying what it says today and certainly none to what it says tomorrow.
Of course others say the same about Russia, very loudly, but the Russians are now gaining credibility because others can see both sides better.
As for the "v r Better Because We R Democracy" I am reminded of the Don McLean song:
After East Pakistan 1971 and the initial cause of the Vietnam festivities, and the very recent Dubyan Liberation of Eyeraq because of the "Dubya-Em-Dee" that Powell exhibited at the UN (which are now very well known to have been false, blatantly false images), is it very surprising that the Democratic US SD's declarations meet with a little bit of skepticism?We burned the city 'cause they didn't agree...
But things go better with Democracy!
And.. Russia is NOT Communist anymore, but that doesn't seem to have solved the Cold War problem, hain? In fact, both Russia and China are worse uber-capitalists than the West, which is now more Communist than Russia and China put together. So maybe we were lied to, about all the great difference being Communism vs. Free Democracy? Maybe it's just Their Goons vs. Our Goons?
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Stayed in Moscow for 5 years. Never had any problem in metro because everybody read in metro or metro station. They do not have time for other nonsense.I used to do crossword. Atmosphere is so calm and soothing........ almost like library.Anant wrote:Vijay,
The Russian people themselves rejected communism. Capitalism and democracies, warts and all, are still better than communism in representing the will of the collective people. For all of the love of communism in this room, look at the naxals in India. What are they? By the way, for all you Russophiles, I'd much rather take the subway in NY (which I have often) than step foot on the Moscow metro and get my ass beaten due to my skin color. It's funny how much Russian association there is in this thread but chances are most of you would be treated like third class citizens in the country you admire. As far as I am concerned, no country has unclean hands. I live in the United States and love it. I love India as well. I just find the hatred of the US on here virulent, palpable and pathetic. Esp, a certain poster's infatuation with Mr. Putin and derogatory terminology for President Obama, Prime Minister Singh and AK. Antony.
etc
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Gents MATA anyone.
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
@ulanbatori - agreed about the NATO. In fact it does look like the NATO agreed NOT to meddle with E Europe and the ex-commie satellite states and them coming in -- I can get the Russian worry and consternation. And once it goes back on its word, it doesn't take a long time to keep going back at will as per their whim.
I still think the step (of trying to bring Ukraine into the EU fold) was haphazard and ill-thought out. Besides, isn't the EU a shaky experiment in itself?
I still think the step (of trying to bring Ukraine into the EU fold) was haphazard and ill-thought out. Besides, isn't the EU a shaky experiment in itself?
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Vijaykarthik, I bandwagon on UB's idea that the present Cold War is between US and China and Ukraine being brought over to EU is to show China it cant count on Russia. The leaked phone conversations between teh US ambassador and the ASS show there was something going on. And Obama not visiting the Sochi Olympics and a drum beat of mythical terrorism was a preparatory for something.
The US wants the EU without the euro.
The US wants the EU without the euro.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Can we expect a statement on the Ukraine issue from Modi once he assumes office? On a side note, I wonder what Modi's ascension to power will do to the fledgling Pagan/Ancient Religions movements in Eastern Europe. The Hindu number in Russia is slowly increasing.
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UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
My hope on that is
1. Modi becomes PM with a reasonable majority to actually do something
2. (assuming Hope #1 actually comes true): that he NOT waste time on any "religious" garbage except to stop "religious" garbage and stand up for freedom of worship anywhere. Set up an ICRF (International Council on Religious Freedom) with a one-point agenda and metric: Freedom of Individual Worship anywhere and for anyone.
Which of course means non-intrusion into other people's modes of worship.
Issue semi-annual Reports of the ICRF grading nations on how they (a) respect freedom of worship and (b) don't allow their citizens to go meddle in other people's freedom or modes of worship.
If he does THAT (purely secular, as you see), it can work wonders not only inside India but Duniya-wide. May set an excellent example for other nations to emulate as well, and to pass and enforce laws accordingly.
I understand the relevance to this thread: Half of the Ukrainian debacle has been caused by the Baptist "Evangelist Corporate" element in the USSD, pushed by entities such as Katherine Lantos and messed up by the likes of the "*UCK EU" "diplomat" and Paco's Protein-Fed-Brain caretakers. A LOT of conflicts around the world have historically come from that. Russians have been under Communism long enough to have nearly got over the hangups of fundamental Orthodox Russian religion and the superiority complex of a former Empire, but as someone pointed out, they are not quite used to cosmopolitan societies despite being in the USSR with so many ethnicities. Those issues are not going to go away tomorrow, and will get worse as they run into more realities, just like is happening in Australia, and happened/still happens in America and India. But that is no reason to start a war preaching hate and "v r better than they r, v represent Righteousness and Freedom, they are the Evil Empire". As someone else pointed out, "their" subway stations are cleaner than in "our" Free Lands, probably because "they" shoot anyone who throws garbage. Constitutional Freedom To Get Shot At Dawn.
1. Modi becomes PM with a reasonable majority to actually do something
2. (assuming Hope #1 actually comes true): that he NOT waste time on any "religious" garbage except to stop "religious" garbage and stand up for freedom of worship anywhere. Set up an ICRF (International Council on Religious Freedom) with a one-point agenda and metric: Freedom of Individual Worship anywhere and for anyone.
Which of course means non-intrusion into other people's modes of worship.
Issue semi-annual Reports of the ICRF grading nations on how they (a) respect freedom of worship and (b) don't allow their citizens to go meddle in other people's freedom or modes of worship.
If he does THAT (purely secular, as you see), it can work wonders not only inside India but Duniya-wide. May set an excellent example for other nations to emulate as well, and to pass and enforce laws accordingly.
I understand the relevance to this thread: Half of the Ukrainian debacle has been caused by the Baptist "Evangelist Corporate" element in the USSD, pushed by entities such as Katherine Lantos and messed up by the likes of the "*UCK EU" "diplomat" and Paco's Protein-Fed-Brain caretakers. A LOT of conflicts around the world have historically come from that. Russians have been under Communism long enough to have nearly got over the hangups of fundamental Orthodox Russian religion and the superiority complex of a former Empire, but as someone pointed out, they are not quite used to cosmopolitan societies despite being in the USSR with so many ethnicities. Those issues are not going to go away tomorrow, and will get worse as they run into more realities, just like is happening in Australia, and happened/still happens in America and India. But that is no reason to start a war preaching hate and "v r better than they r, v represent Righteousness and Freedom, they are the Evil Empire". As someone else pointed out, "their" subway stations are cleaner than in "our" Free Lands, probably because "they" shoot anyone who throws garbage. Constitutional Freedom To Get Shot At Dawn.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 09 Apr 2014 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
This is about India and how it affects Indian people.prahaar wrote:
"Anant"
As far as I am concerned, no country has unclean hands. I live in the United States and love it. I love India as well. I just find the hatred of the US on here virulent, palpable and pathetic. Esp, a certain poster's infatuation with Mr. Putin and derogatory terminology for President Obama, Prime Minister Singh and AK. Antony.
Who is the biggest creditor and supplier of arms to Pakistan?
Who did wink wink when China was supplying MTCR prohibited missiles to Pakistan?
Who gave political shelter at international level to Pak-sponsored terror in India?
Who destroyed 1993 Blast evidence?
Who sheltered DCH?
Who imposed sanctions of India post-Pokhran and who did not?
Who created all the alphabet soup organizations and impose technology denial regime on India?
Please do some homework. Those supporting Russia may not have any intention or wish to board a Moscow subway, but they want to board a Mumbai local without the fear of a bomb blast destroying their families. Get real Sir, too much of staying abroad sometimes can cause a severe distortion in understanding priorities of Indians living in India.
American bullets are killing Indians. American institutions are interfering inside India. Recent case of trying to influence Indian elections by the panel on human rights
Nobody from outside India should interfere inside India including Indian Americans.
BTW I am attending the AAP sponsored meeting and seeing how the Indian Americans are trying to interfere and fund AAP
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vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
thanks, ramanaji. If you could care to explain that statement, it will be really helpful as I am lost: How will Russian annexing Crimea tell China that it cant count on Russia?
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
This is also another way to show China that it cannot take any unilateral actions in East Asia and be a big brother.ramana wrote:Vijaykarthik, I bandwagon on UB's idea that the present Cold War is between US and China and Ukraine being brought over to EU is to show China it cant count on Russia. The leaked phone conversations between teh US ambassador and the ASS show there was something going on. And Obama not visiting the Sochi Olympics and a drum beat of mythical terrorism was a preparatory for something.
The US wants the EU without the euro.
Imperialist tendency have shown up in the world.
Once Russia is shown in the world media then PRC also will back off.
The global media is showing the Ukraine crisis and also showing how sanctions will affect EU, US and other trading countries.
This is a open lesson to PRC to show what will be its fate if it thinks it is a global superpower.
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member_28352
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
In deeply perverted ways, only possible from being fed protein rich diets, the custodial rape of an Indian diplomat and the "disappearance" of MH370 are ways to show India and China their places in the world. In the Indian case, clearly it backfired. The Chinese have been shown to be impotent what with 10 saterrites not able to find any debris. Ukraine was actually regular programming but went badly off key when Russia annexed Crimea.
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UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Then the lesson is that the PRC can simply start a ruckus in a neighboring territory and move in a few hundred guys in camos and have the place magically "choose" to join PRC. Unlike Russia, PRC practically owns most of the US COTUS anyway, and holds the golas of the US treasury, so Hearts and Minds of US Govt will be surely to follow where China leads. This is the disaster of US policy. I don't think Sanctions do anything beyond temporarily making big $$$ for those who can predict them in advance.
Right now it is the US market that is sliding - but hey! gasoline prices have shot up 40 cents a gallon inside 2 weeks!
Right now it is the US market that is sliding - but hey! gasoline prices have shot up 40 cents a gallon inside 2 weeks!
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
vijaykarthik wrote:thanks, ramanaji. If you could care to explain that statement, it will be really helpful as I am lost: How will Russian annexing Crimea tell China that it cant count on Russia?
Sorry for not being clear. The big idea was to move Ukraine into EU to show how Russia is powerless to stop that and hence PRC don't count on them.
Russia checkmated by moving Crimea out of Ukraine and made Eastern Ukraine doubtful.
At same time old Memorandum of Agreements (guarunteeing Crimean accession to Ukraine in return for giving up nukes which didnt belong to them in first place!) were not worth the paper on which they were signed by powers.
Now powers will have their own Crimean accession in disputed areas.
West has so far created new states : East Timor, Eritrea out of Somalia, South Sudan, former Yugoslavia break-up etc.
This incorporation in adjacent country is new.
What about Macedonia and Greece?
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
There is an intra US power struggle going on as well. Neo-Cons (Ex: SD Nuland is Neo Con) want to force non interventionist Obama's hand by forcing his attention back to eastern europe. Problem for them is the John Doe on the street doesn't care about these cold war battles and that works for Obama.
Lesson is the same as what Gen VN Sharma said after GW I - unless you have nukes, you are nanga...unless the West agrees for an autonomy for it's eastern provinces, Ukraine is heading for a breakup.
Lesson is the same as what Gen VN Sharma said after GW I - unless you have nukes, you are nanga...unless the West agrees for an autonomy for it's eastern provinces, Ukraine is heading for a breakup.
Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine
Greece continues to be the odd one of the EU/NATO. Russia in Crimea means, more pressure on Turkey, the traditional opponents of Greece. If Russia ever manages to create its own version of the EU, spanning Eastern Europe, the Aegean, to the pacific and central Asia, Greece would probably switch its alliances. Russia has a long way to go before it can reassure the slavs again in a geopolitical sense despite the cultural affinities.ramana wrote: What about Macedonia and Greece?