IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2015 14:52

HAL can barely build 8 MKIs,there is a delay in local MKI production for a fully developed fighter where all details are available.Thus one sincerely hopes that it will be able to build 16 LCAs within a couple of years,otherwise,after a few years,the "make in India" mantra will have to be altered.Secondly, the LCA MK-1.1-A whatever,simply cannot be equated with a med. sized multi-role aircraft.It was meant to be and is a replacement for the MIG-21s.It would be interesting to have a classified contest between an LCA and Bison simply to see how much more capable the LCA is. With the MK-2 being dumped,forget about a Rafale like LCA arriving. With the make in India mantra the IAF will have to plump for more MKIs and seal the FGFA deal with a less ambitious requirement or (p)lump it!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 07 Oct 2015 15:34

Philip wrote:HAL can barely build 8 MKIs

Thanks mostly to russian delays in providing manufacturing machinery, raw materials and parts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2015 16:11

Ha!Ha! The facts do not bear out your statements..It is not drawings not provided from Russia but "finalisation of documentation" for overhauls,etc.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/dela ... 88918.html

Another cause for concern is the Sukhoi. Its delivery schedule is crawling in the ongoing Phase IV of production. Furthermore, delays in setting up the overhaulrepair facility have thrown up upkeep challenges. The first two Sukhois are now awaiting overhaul, the sources say.

The IAF has around 150 Sukhois and the estimated target to be reached in phases is 272. Worryingly, however, HAL has been unable to absorb the technology and start manufacturing Sukhois with the maximum indigenous content. So, its aim of supplying 12 aircraft every year appears to be difficult to achieve.

The Russian aircraft are being produced under licence. HAL should have absorbed the technology in Phase IV and enhanced the local content in manufacturing to about 50 or 55 per cent, which it hasn't.

Then there is the delay in establishing the engine overhaul facilities, which should have been ready in February and HAL's inability to "absorb tech"!. The IJT fiasco must also be kept in mind.HAL simply cannot walk the talk when it comes to some aircraft.

The slow pace has been attributed to a number of issues, including problems regarding finalisation of documents for upkeep contracts that were needed to be signed with the Russians. The sources claim corrective measures have been taken to address the tardiness.

But till this urgency reflects on the ground, the IAF remains on a wing and a prayer.

70% of the MKI is now supposedly from local raw material.I wonder how HASL is going to deliver 16 LCAs /yr when a large amt of the LCA is also imported.

Some other facts:

Indian Defence Ministry has asked HAL to adopt means to increase the speed of their manufacturing of Su-30 MKI fighters. HAL intends to step-up the manufacturing of the fighters by commissioning additional tooling jigs & fixtures, increased outsourcing, reduction in cycle time by more efficient processes and operations and timely actions through Enterprise Resource Planning (ERP) and recruitment of more manpower in major work centres.

Too much on its plate?

Besides the production of SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft, HAL is juggling production of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Advanced Jet Trainer (Hawk), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Advance Light Helicopter (ALH), Light Combat Helicopter, Light Utility Helicopter and Dornier-228. Some of these other programs are also experiencing delays, according to the ministry.

HAL makes frontline Sukhoi 30 MKi combat aircraft and Hawk trainer jet through licence production agreements with Russia and the UK but the Indian Air Force complains that the public sector outfit almost never delivers on time.

The IAF is particularly angry that the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) project and the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) have taken 25 years but are not yet ready for induction. A naval version of the LCA is also only now going through trials.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2015 16:33

The "blame game".

HAL blames BAE Systems for Hawk delays
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 050_1.html

HAL not alone.
Ten key DRDO projects delayed: Arun Jaitley
PTI | Jul 18, 2014

NEW DELHI: Ten major projects of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), including the LCA Tejas aircraft and several key missile programmes, have been delayed due to various reasons, Lok Sabha was informed on Friday.

Giving details of DRDO's delayed projects, defence minister Arun Jaitley said during Question Hour that "corrective/ remedial" measures are being taken to address the issue of delays.

Besides Light Combat Aircraft, other delayed projects include Naval Light Combat Aircraft, Aero Engine Kaveri, Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft and Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile.

The Air-to-Air Missile Astra, Advanced Light Weight Torpedo, Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System for Fighter Aircraft, among others, have also been delayed, the minister said.

On remedial measures to complete the projects, Jaitley said that consortium approach is being used for design, development and fabrication of critical components.

According to him, synergy and better co-ordination were being promoted among user services, DRDO and production agencies through cluster meetings.

Jaitley also said the general impression that DRDO is lagging behind and that government is not providing enough support "may not be very accurate".

"It is not fair to say that activities of DRDO have been curtailed by paucity of funds," he said.

Parrikar pulls up DRDO for delays in key projects

Panaji: Defence minister Manohar Parrikar on Thursday bluntly told the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) that their products were not up to expectations and that several key projects undertaken by them were either behind schedule or were found to be falling short when compared to equipment sourced from foreign defence contractors.

Parrikar's comments threw DRDO officials off guard, but the defence minister, continuing on Prime Minister Narendra Modi's call for 'Make in India', asked DRDO to buck up and develop indigenous products that matched international standards.

Parrikar made these observations while interacting with DRDO officials on the sidelines of the launch of the fourth edition of the Bharatiya Vigyan Expo 2015 in Panaji, where he took keen interest in various projects DRDO had completed or is in the process of completing.

When DRDO officials showcased their Quadcopter drones, Parrikar asked them how long the drones could stay in the air. To this, DRDO officials said the drones could fly up to eight hours. Parrikar shot back saying this was not enough for the armed forces. "This may be useful for police surveillance. We must develop unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, which can last for over 28 days." Quadcopters take a lot of energy, but UAVs consume less energy, he added.

A case in point would be the Combat Free Fall System that DRDO supplies to the armed forces. Parrikar informed DRDO officials that the Army had brought it to his notice that imported parachutes could be used for around 100 times while the DRDO Combat Free Fall System had a life of just 40 uses.

While the visibly nervous DRDO officials remained mum, they did point out to the TOI correspondent that their system had been in place for 20 years and till date none of the armed forces had complained and DRDO had instead received commendation for the system.

Parrikar also directed the DRDO officials to find an alternative use for the Kaveri engine that was developed to power the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas), which was recently shelved.

Parrikar went to the BrahMos missile enclosure and sought to know what propellants were being used, its range, cruising speed, and was satisfied with the answers. Then he went to the enclosure of the Akash surface-to-air missile and wanted to know how it compares with Pakistan's surface-to-air missile. To this, the officials explained that there was no comparison as Pakistan's missile was short-range whereas India's was a long-range missile. Also, the payload of the Akash missile was way ahead.

DRDO "morale low" after Chander dismissal

The summary dismissal of Defence Research and Development Organisation chief Avinash Chander in mid-January has lowered the morale of several DRDO officials within the public sector defence unit and they find themselves at a loss, DRDO officials present at the Bharatiya Vigyan Expo 2015 said. They also added that a lack of trust between the ministry of defence and DRDO existed which was a major hurdle, but none of the officials wanted to come on record given the sensitivities.8-)

Parrikar pulls up DRDO for delays in key projects - The Times of India .

Source: http://defence.pk/threads/parrikar-pull ... z3nskokjzz

Not too long ago I posted a report showing the delays in the major projects of the DRDO,no of years,etc. and the costs incurred. It affected all the DPSUs,including naval yards,MDL,etc. The blame should be shared primarily by the DRDO,DPSUs and MOD,to a lesser extent by the services,as production is not in their scope.Procurement delays by the MOD are a major issue and the overhaul of the DRDO has taken place.One only hopes that now with the "clusters" and their accountable heads improvement will take place.As Mr.Jaitley ahs said,funds were not the problem for past delays.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Oct 2015 17:20

It has been clearly mentioned in the latest reports that there is delay in getting spares from OEM suppliers in Russia. If someone is trying to obfuscate the Russian perfidy it is not going to cut much dice as the meaning of "Original Equipment Manufacturer" is clear to most of us here.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Oct 2015 17:21

Old news, the current TOT absorption for the MKI is at 70% and 16 aircraft are being churned out yearly from the plant. Furthermore, availability in the meantime has gone up to around 65%. It will be at over 70% by end of year. HAL is not entirely to be blamed for delays.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2015 17:40

If you look at the original reports,the issue of spares,etc was supposed to have been sorted out ages ago by establishing local vendors,local manufacturing,etc. Each entity passes the buck which goes round and round in a circle. The IAF is blamed for not wanting enough spares so the inventory couldn't be built up,etc. and everyone blames the MOD for delayed decision making.But HAL's delays in many other projects ,esp. the LCA not Russian

,is no secret.The IJT (being dumped after years of effort and money ,along with a failure to produce a BT too,is a dismal reflection on the organisation.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Oct 2015 17:55

chaanakya wrote:Last time I heard we were only dreaming about 400 LCAs..and who knows what engine will be there finally. And IAF Chief said Rafale is about to be concluded by year end. If unkil has french balls in its grasp why did it not ask rafale to be withdrawn. In fact sanctions are good in one way, if scientists are up to it. Remember cryogenic saga. Who is the winner there. And for your friendship with unkil in military matters vis a vis bakis, proof of pudding lies in eating and right now their pudding is with bakis, free of cost. So your wet dreams of India having some F--XYZ is not going to come true bacche.

Look Buddhe, behind the scenes, the real numbers being talked about for the LCA today are around 400, in various blocks. Secondly, Unkil has no intentions of sanctions on India, why would they ask for Rafale to be withdrawn when they obviously have much to gain from business with India. Actually they have been gaining more than others lately. So you bitch about Bakis getting shit for free, while entire Chinese mil infrastructure is made up of Russian knock-offs. You forget this is chess not checkers. All that matters is interests and the US has proven itself to be better supplier than France i.e. all the deals so far are on time, within costs and the after sales has a set a new benchmark. As for wet dreams of whether a F-XYZ makes it to India matters little since there many other things other than F-XYZ's that India is buying from Unkil.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Oct 2015 17:59

Philip wrote:If you look at the original reports,the issue of spares,etc was supposed to have been sorted out ages ago by establishing local vendors,local manufacturing,etc. Each entity passes the buck which goes round and round in a circle. The IAF is blamed for not wanting enough spares so the inventory couldn't be built up,etc. and everyone blames the MOD for delayed decision making.But HAL's delays in many other projects ,esp. the LCA not Russian ,is no secret.The IJT (being dumped after years of effort and money ,along with a failure to produce a BT too,is a dismal reflection on the organisation.

Even by your explanation, its clear HAL is not the only one to blame. This is a family problem.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Oct 2015 18:16

I believe the one to compare against would be Hawk and not SU-30MKI. The Russians were never serious on full ToT as per agreement, whether its SU30 or T-90. And too many issues regarding OEM spares and support by Russians.

HAL has also manufactured Hawk, and even though there were initial hiccups of BAe trying to pass off used stuff as new, once issues were addressed, the production seems to be going along fine. Not much news about Hawk production issues, delays etc.

No reason why it can't be same for LCA too.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Oct 2015 18:41

putnanja wrote:I believe the one to compare against would be Hawk and not SU-30MKI. The Russians were never serious on full ToT as per agreement, whether its SU30 or T-90. And too many issues regarding OEM spares and support by Russians.

HAL has also manufactured Hawk, and even though there were initial hiccups of BAe trying to pass off used stuff as new, once issues were addressed, the production seems to be going along fine. Not much news about Hawk production issues, delays etc.

No reason why it can't be same for LCA too.

FYI, HAL has put the guy who ran the Hawk production to lead the LCA production.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2015 19:53

Septimus P. wrote:
Look Buddhe, behind the scenes, the real numbers being talked about for the LCA today are around 400, in various blocks. Secondly, Unkil has no intentions of sanctions on India, why would they ask for Rafale to be withdrawn when they obviously have much to gain from business with India. Actually they have been gaining more than others lately. So you bitch about Bakis getting shit for free, while entire Chinese mil infrastructure is made up of Russian knock-offs. You forget this is chess not checkers. All that matters is interests and the US has proven itself to be better supplier than France i.e. all the deals so far are on time, within costs and the after sales has a set a new benchmark. As for wet dreams of whether a F-XYZ makes it to India matters little since there many other things other than F-XYZ's that India is buying from Unkil.

Well you are talking of "behind the scenes" and I am talking of what Chief told . he has not talked bout 400 for sure. second you are banking on "intentions" of Unkil. I don't. And I don't know what Unkil is to gain fro rafale sale to India. It is another competitor only.

Perhaps you know something behind the scenes that I am not aware of. if you could confirm 400 from authentic sources I would be more than happy.

See I don't bitch about Pakis getting it free from Unkil. They can get whatever they may but there is a long history why Unkil will have uphill task in overcoming trust deficit despite some purchases by india. Tell me when India orders US any fighter plane. We will surely take something which is less sanction prone. And it is goo that you also understand the difficulty of F-xyz. Now we have no argument. China card does not cut any ice. Russia has done its bit through difficult times for India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Oct 2015 20:01

Septimus P. Please mind your language. Don't call any one Buddhe!

Not warning you now.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 07 Oct 2015 21:53

The French hand in the ongoing negotiations has gotten weaker since yesterday. Time is not on their side now.

Look for DM to move in for the kill with a killer bargain price for the Rafales.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2015 23:06

Paul wrote:The French hand in the ongoing negotiations has gotten weaker since yesterday. Time is not on their side now.

Look for DM to move in for the kill with a killer bargain price for the Rafales.

I too think most of the moves that came out in last week is to force french negotiators' had in offering better deal for rafale. Timing is impeccable.

By announcing 120 LCA and not agreeing to additionality in rafale our position has been made clear. Chief by talking about six sqdrns of "similar" type in addition to 36 added fuel to fire. Negotiators must be having hard time to interpret these signals. To top it all December deadline will be looming large to close the deal in time .

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Oct 2015 14:49

IT in the latest issue has a special feature by Sandeep U on the "Big Freeze",reg. defence procurement/decision making,where the DM,MP,is in a bind thanks to babudom.Only 20% of allotted funds have been cleared this year and the "10 step " route/maze to negotiate before getting any def. item cleared is explained in full.No wonder it take years .Babudom is the greatest enemy of India,and India security,not Pak or China.

Policy-making and defence reforms hit the slow track, and contracts worth billions are stuck in Manohar Parrikar's defence ministry, affecting preparedness of the armed forces.

The article is only for subscribers.get hold of the print issue.
.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2015 10:39

With LCA firmed up order and no to extra natashas , Rafale thread surely has hit the road blocks with posters running to home base to compare notes before coming back here with vengeance.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Oct 2015 14:31

^ why fingering ?!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Oct 2015 10:21

I was enjoying a conversation with a fine "Scottish" gentleman,ruminating about the IAF's predicament,when this wicked thought occurred to me. It appears to me that the IAF by being obstinate and stubborn has actually shot itself in the foot.I'll explain.

For the last few years we have been fed on a diet from the IAF about their being no "Plan B",and that it was the Rafale or bust.Whenever analysts,etc. pointed out alternatives such as MIG-29/35s,Gripens,more MKIs (Karnad),various arguments were trotted out/leaked as to why they wouldn't do. "We don't want to depend upon Russia.,need western tech,etc.,etc.".With a new dispensation conscious about our national security and determined to take quick decisions,the IAF felt confident that the Rafale deal would be sealed one way or another.However,the GOI/MOD,DM himself ,realised that 2 MKIs could be had for the cost of one Raffy.The MKI incidentally kicking the ass out of all western birds it had exercised with! The figs also didn't match up ,the raffy was way too expensive and cash was hard to come by. In order not to go through a few more years of finding a new bird,Mr.Modi cut through the Delhi knot and sanctioned 36 Raffys in an innovative move.

Then the IAF's attitude immediately changed.The chief said that he had never said that it was "only Raffy" but that "other Raffy types would do" and "6 more sqds" were required.Hoping no doubt that another firang bird would be theirs for the asking! But sad to say,it was a bolt from the blue when the GOI said "no more friangs",get used to the LCA. The gal least wanted by the IAF!

It had hoped for champagne and foie gras,truffles and some great French meat.It would also make do with vodka and caviar if French fare wasn't available ,but what has been served by the MOD/GOI is simpler fare. Just good old "rotis and dal",washed down with good "Old Fart" rum and mind you...no beef!

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 22 Oct 2015 07:32

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: Crossing a significant milestone in negotiations for the 36-aircraft Rafale fighter deal, India and France have firmed up an understanding on the offsets segment under which the French have agreed to invest 50 per cent of the deal's worth in related sectors.

The offsets deal was clinched in the last few days, people aware of the matter told ET. Even as the deal was being reached, French aircraft manufacturer Dassault had already reached out to Indian companies in the defence and security industry for possible Make in India partnerships. Estimated at $4.5 billion, or about Rs 30,000 crore, this will make it one of India's biggest-ever offsets deals.

The negotiations will move toward settling the contract for the actual aircraft sale. Since this is a government-to-government transaction, sources said, both sides will now open and examine Dassault's commercial bid. From this will flow the main negotiations on final price, lifecycle costs and other details related to the aircraft itself.

As ET had first reported on September 29, a breakthrough in the offsets deal was imminent after a top-level French team led by engineer-general Stephane Reb, director of the international directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament), came to India for talks that set the stage for the final paperwork.

Following this, Prime Minister Narendra Modi met French President Francois Hollande at the UN General Assembly session in New York. Matters have moved at a rapid pace after the Defence Acquisitions Committee gave the green signal on September 1 for negotiations to start.

The deal for off-the-shelf purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft was reached during Modi's trip to Paris in April. It was stuck for over four months on pricing and offsets issues, which have been partly addressed after high- ..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Oct 2015 11:03

Media report today that Sushma's visit to Moscow was to "smoothen" the impending visit of the DM and Mr.M. Defence issues top priority.80 original SU-30s to be upgraded to "Super Sukhoi" std. ,to include some stealth features,AESA radar,etc. FGFA will also be on the agenda. THis appears an imperative due to the limited no. of Raffys that the GOI can afford.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 22 Oct 2015 12:27

Well you are talking of "behind the scenes" and I am talking of what Chief told . he has not talked bout 400 for sure. second you are banking on "intentions" of Unkil. I don't. And I don't know what Unkil is to gain fro rafale sale to India. It is another competitor only.

Perhaps you know something behind the scenes that I am not aware of. if you could confirm 400 from authentic sources I would be more than happy.

See I don't bitch about Pakis getting it free from Unkil. They can get whatever they may but there is a long history why Unkil will have uphill task in overcoming trust deficit despite some purchases by india. Tell me when India orders US any fighter plane. We will surely take something which is less sanction prone. And it is goo that you also understand the difficulty of F-xyz. Now we have no argument. China card does not cut any ice. Russia has done its bit through difficult times for India.[/quote]

Saurav Jha confirmed that the number being discussed behind the scenes is for 400 LCAs. IAF Chief only mentioned the firm orders for now. No one here says it will be easier for Unkil to get the same level of trust as Russia, this will take another 5-10 years. Indo/US friendship is a slow one, an old Sanskrit saying comes to mind, better a slow path to friendship than a rush, this way it lasts. Its only a matter of time for F-35B/C orders for IN, won't happen now but early next decade, F-35B fits perfectly on the LPDs IN has in mind especially if the Juan Carlos wins. In the mean time we will have plenty of S-70Bs, Chinooks, Apaches that will be ordered. With US help coming on the next carrier and perhaps their help on the SSNs, I am certain we will have a good relationship with Unkil.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Oct 2015 02:04

Septimus P. wrote:Its only a matter of time for F-35B/C orders for IN, won't happen now but early next decade, F-35B fits perfectly on the LPDs IN has in mind especially if the Juan Carlos wins.

I have never heard of IN showing any interest for the F-35Bs. And I sincerely hope that they don't ever get VSTOLs again. We don't have an expeditionary navy, and all our neighbors have moderate to good air defenses. Any airplane we send into such well defended airspace should have as much fuel and payload as possible, and not a big fat hollow fan in the middle.

F-35Cs need a catapult and that is not coming before IAC-II. Predicting something for the 2025-30 horizon can only be fanboyism.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Oct 2015 02:25

indranilroy wrote:I have never heard of IN showing any interest for the F-35Bs. And I sincerely hope that they don't ever get VSTOLs again. We don't have an expeditionary navy, and all our neighbors have moderate to good air defenses. Any airplane we send into such well defended airspace should have as much fuel and payload as possible, and not a big fat hollow fan in the middle.

While lower than its CTOL siblings, the F-35B has a combat radius of about 850 km on internal fuel (greater with EFTs). That's roughly Mumbai-Karachi as the crow flies. And comparable to the MiG-29K.

Its true we're not an expeditionary navy, but for better or worse, we're looking to license build a set of LHDs. Now if an amphibious assault is called for in wartime, well and good. If not, than those ships become something of a liability soaking up manpower and resources with nothing to show for it.

But get a STOVL fighter component on board and they can double up as aircraft carriers and that's something that'll inevitably see action in any hot war (in addition to naval blockades). Embed one or more in a CBG and it'll more than carry its weight. In fact, I'd venture a Juan Carlos type LHD with a 12 F-35B complement might be more lethal in many scenarios than the Vikramaditya with its 30 MiG-29Ks, despite the latter's higher sortie generation rate.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Oct 2015 03:37

Septimus P. wrote:Well you are talking of "behind the scenes" and I am talking of what Chief told . he has not talked bout 400 for sure. second you are banking on "intentions" of Unkil. I don't. And I don't know what Unkil is to gain fro rafale sale to India. It is another competitor only.

Perhaps you know something behind the scenes that I am not aware of. if you could confirm 400 from authentic sources I would be more than happy.

See I don't bitch about Pakis getting it free from Unkil. They can get whatever they may but there is a long history why Unkil will have uphill task in overcoming trust deficit despite some purchases by india. Tell me when India orders US any fighter plane. We will surely take something which is less sanction prone. And it is goo that you also understand the difficulty of F-xyz. Now we have no argument. China card does not cut any ice. Russia has done its bit through difficult times for India.

Saurav Jha confirmed that the number being discussed behind the scenes is for 400 LCAs. IAF Chief only mentioned the firm orders for now. No one here says it will be easier for Unkil to get the same level of trust as Russia, this will take another 5-10 years. Indo/US friendship is a slow one, an old Sanskrit saying comes to mind, better a slow path to friendship than a rush, this way it lasts. Its only a matter of time for F-35B/C orders for IN, won't happen now but early next decade, F-35B fits perfectly on the LPDs IN has in mind especially if the Juan Carlos wins. In the mean time we will have plenty of S-70Bs, Chinooks, Apaches that will be ordered. With US help coming on the next carrier and perhaps their help on the SSNs, I am certain we will have a good relationship with Unkil.

[Personal attack removed]

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Oct 2015 06:36

I have never heard of IN showing any interest for the F-35Bs.

IN did issue an RFI. Since it was not made public (as far as I know), we really do not know which version was requested - B/C. However, LM did turn up with briefing for both.

srin · Post by **srin** » 23 Oct 2015 08:13

Viv S wrote: But get a STOVL fighter component on board and they can double up as aircraft carriers and that's something that'll inevitably see action in any hot war (in addition to naval blockades). Embed one or more in a CBG and it'll more than carry its weight. In fact, I'd venture a Juan Carlos type LHD with a 12 F-35B complement might be more lethal in many scenarios than the Vikramaditya with its 30 MiG-29Ks, despite the latter's higher sortie generation rate.

Putting aircraft on a flat-top doesn't necessarily make it a practical aircraft carrier. How much of jet fuel can it carry ? And how much ammo for the aircraft ? How many aircraft can be carried in its hangars for maintenance work ? And it is carrying an air wing, how often does it need to replenished at sea for its own fuel ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Oct 2015 23:18

^ how about putting f 35 on the viraat hainji? The old girl still has some life in her it seems...

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Oct 2015 23:19

I'm surprised the French aren't making any noises about a m2k line in counter to the solah offer, might be tempting...100 mirages instead of 40 odd raffles

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Oct 2015 00:00

Cain Marko wrote:^ how about putting f 35 on the viraat hainji? The old girl still has some life in her it seems...

Its like marrying Madonna and taking her to slums for honeymoon.

Unkil himself will sink the boat before Madonna can set foot on it.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Oct 2015 01:56

Well so long as the dollars come in, why should anyone care? In any case Madonna is getting rather wrinkly of late. It allows the IN some experience with what is most likely to be its choice of fighters for its next gen requirement...I would rather see this platform in use by af and IN as an expensive silver bullet than the equally if not more expensive raffle, which does not provide the same capability imho...if they are going to get paltry numbers anyway, might as well go with a gen 5 bird.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Oct 2015 03:58

Cain Marko wrote:I'm surprised the French aren't making any noises about a m2k line in counter to the solah offer, might be tempting...100 mirages instead of 40 odd raffles

I think the M2K line has long since been scrapped.

IIRC, an offer was made to ship the entire M2K production line to India before it was scrapped. For a couple of years France kept the M2K line open anticipating an Indian order. But we went down the MMRCA tender route instead.

The F-16 is in a similar situation, coming to the end of its production run. Unkil will be too happy to shift the entire production line to India, in exchange for a fat order.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2015 04:52

FWIW -
72 Rafales are planned, once funding is available. 36 is the first batch. Tejas is the bridge - ie. it along with 36 Rafale will restore numbers and capability to IAF accounting for drawdowns.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Oct 2015 05:13

Karan M wrote:FWIW -
72 Rafales are planned, once funding is available. 36 is the first batch. Tejas is the bridge - ie. it along with 36 Rafale will restore numbers and capability to IAF accounting for drawdowns.

No additional MKIs?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Oct 2015 05:48

At this point in time (and foreseeable future i.e. next 5 years), I don't see how more Rafales will be purchased. The budget is not there to support it. Where will another $9 billion come from for the next 36 Rafales? It's either that or cuts for other modernization efforts for all services. The signs are there that the Rafale will end up like the Mirage-2000 fleet, which was also originally planned to be more than 150 units but there was no money to do so for over two decades. Then when money was available it was decided to do a MMRCA competition that after 15-years got canceled due to being way too expensive than original budget of $8-10 billion, and at present off-the-shelf purchase for limited number of units is under negotiation more as a face-saving measure. Besides, the original budget was only sufficient for off-the-shelf 36 units and not 126 units with ToT, license production, lifecycle support and 50% offset. That's the reality.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Oct 2015 09:09

srai, 36 was EMD for French. Lets see.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Oct 2015 11:04

Both France and Russia had hoped to get some funds from India. The funds "promised" were when India was not as advanced as it is today - people (all over, including in India) had little hope that India could/would stand up her own aerospace MIC to support fighters.

India having made some decent progress (understatement) has toppled that apple cart. Does India still need help, certainly. Does India need to spend billions on imports - even if it were there - to support her services, may be. But that may be will certainly turn into something more promising. Thus India is hedging and that will never sit very well with either France or Russia.

No matter what source one cites, the fact of the matter is if India cannot afford billion, neither can France nor Russia.

Yet, 10 or so years ago, the MMRCA and "5th Gen" programs did make certain unstated promises, based upon which both France and Russia made some decisions (both will quote diff stories for sure - that is a game they have to play). And, teh time has come for India to either pony up or pay a price in a different way - perhaps lack of SC seat support, etc. Just a game.

IMHO of course.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2015 18:10

srai wrote:At this point in time (and foreseeable future i.e. next 5 years), I don't see how more Rafales will be purchased. The budget is not there to support it. Where will another $9 billion come from for the next 36 Rafales? It's either that or cuts for other modernization efforts for all services. The signs are there that the Rafale will end up like the Mirage-2000 fleet, which was also originally planned to be more than 150 units but there was no money to do so for over two decades.

There is a new focus on airpower and hence if the economy does ok, the funds will be made available. The intent is to avoid a repeat of the Mirage 2000 experience and the MOD does understand this (economies of scale for the infrastructure we have invested in)

member_28882 · Post by **member_28882** » 25 Oct 2015 00:25

India needs to diversify HAL. Spinning off Tejas unit in the same fashion as BrahMos Aerospace is the way to go. This will enable new investments and new private partners to take fighter jet manufacturing to the next level.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Oct 2015 02:03

srin wrote:Putting aircraft on a flat-top doesn't necessarily make it a practical aircraft carrier. How much of jet fuel can it carry ? And how much ammo for the aircraft ? How many aircraft can be carried in its hangars for maintenance work ? And it is carrying an air wing, how often does it need to replenished at sea for its own fuel ?

If the ship has been designed from ground up to carry aircraft, there's no reason why jet fuel capacity should be an issue*. And the Juan Carlos type can be further customized for the job. That BTW is what the Turkish Navy has opted for. At roughly $1 bn each (up from $700 mil for the baseline variants), its still a very decent price for a 25,000 ton carrier packing upto 24 aircraft (compared to 36 for the Vik).

*The ship has an unrefueled range of 9,000 nm (16,000 km). Deploying to the Northern Arabian Sea (about 24 hours sailing time) with a full air wing should hardly be a challenge.