Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[pravula]

Naah, they have designed a plane around an engine (110 lbs afterburner), that does not exist anywhere in the world. If the project does not go anywhere, kaya kare, kahi engine exist hi nahi karta, lets go to another project, rinse and repeat...

Sorry, it does exist. F-135 clocks in at 190kN wet.

[VishnuS]

The ELM-2052 is an upgraded version of the ELM-2032...if Mark1 are flying without problem what could be the issue with M1A's 2052.
The jaguars are flying with which 2032 or 2052?

This is as silly as saying Windows 7 is an upgraded version of Windows 98...

There is a world of difference between both 2052 & 2032 and they're not even close!!!

Forget 2052 & 2032, the 2052 used by Jag and MK1A are not the same. For starters there is a huge difference in T/R module count, which results in difference in scan area, power consumption, thermal stability and so many other things, the point I am trying to say is you can't simply replace one with another like plug and play!

And only 2 squadrons of MK1A will get 2052! Rest of MK1As will get Uttam!

[VinodTK]

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will deliver all 83 LCA Tejas Mk-1A ahead of 2028-29 deadline: Official

A senior HAL official stated that there are no concerns about the fighter’s delivery schedule.
:
:
The official explained that delays in engine supply and certain development challenges have pushed back the delivery schedule. HAL has signed a contract with General Electric for 99 F404 engines.

“We have been informed that GE will begin supplying engines from September. We expect to deliver more than 8 jets by the end of this fiscal year (March 31, 2025),” indicated another official.

When asked how HAL plans to meet the delivery timeline, the official responded, “Currently, our two facilities in Bengaluru are operational with the capacity to produce 16 aircraft. Our third facility in Nashik will become operational in October, where we can manufacture eight jets or more.” In 2021, the defence ministry signed a contract with HAL for 83 Tejas Mk-1A aircraft valued at ₹48,000 crore for the IAF.

Additionally, in August 2021, HAL finalized a deal worth $716 million with General Electric for 99 F404 aircraft engines and support services for the Tejas Mk-1A. It is important to note that the LCA Tejas is expected to become a cornerstone of the IAF in the coming years, helping to address the declining number of fighter squadrons.

Talk less & Deliver more

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1821189513861021841 ---> There exists an IAF Project Management Team from IAF in ADA. Still no one in IAF had the idea about the delay in GE-404 engines?

[pravula]

What does ADA have to do at this point? Isn’t it under HAL project management now?

[Rakesh]

Zoom into the logo posted above. On the left is Tejas and I cannot identify the helo (Dhruv? Prachand? LUH?) in the picture.

But anyone care to identify the aircraft in the middle?

If you give up, click on the link below and compare the images....

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vect ... 074149.jpg

Why does ADA have that aircraft in the logo?

[basant]

The middle a/c looks like Su-57 to me.

[nachiket]

Naah, they have designed a plane around an engine (110 lbs afterburner), that does not exist anywhere in the world. If the project does not go anywhere, kaya kare, kahi engine exist hi nahi karta, lets go to another project, rinse and repeat...

Sorry, it does exist. F-135 clocks in at 190kN wet.

I am flummoxed by both these posts. 110 lbs afterburner? I presume he meant 110kN not lbs and is talking about the AMCA (since neither the Tejas Mk1 nor the Mk2 need a 110kN wet thrust engine) . And then what does the 190kN F-135 have to do with it? It is completely useless for the AMCA unless you redesign it as a single engine aircraft similar to the F35 and then cry because Uncle Sam won't sell us the bleeding edge F-135. This is even worse than the time some enterprising posters here had demanded to know why we couldn't just replace the GE F404 on the Tejas with the AL-31F from the Su-30 and solve any questions about inadequate thrust once and for all, easy peasy.

[pravula]

The way I read that post, I assumed that the comment was no mil aircraft engine exists for AMCA’s thrust requirement. Was just pointing out that it does.

I agree that this will change the design, ala Marut with that fat rear

[Kartik]

The middle a/c looks like Su-57 to me.

Because at one time the Su-57 was supposed to be the IAF's FGFA.

[Manish_P]

The middle a/c looks like Su-57 to me.

Because at one time the Su-57 was supposed to be the IAF's FGFA.

French femme fatale dekhte hi, Russi Laal Pari bhool gaye....

[Aditya_V]

Sometimes seeing some discussions like putting Al31 F in Tejas is like fitting a 4 liter V8 with gearbox in Maruti 800 Chassis.

Like car engines have displacement of cylinders, the more powerful Jet engines generally require bigger diameters and longer length with lots more weight and far more fuel consumption, increasing size, cost and almost every parameter

That's why even GE414 EPE if developed may be more cutting edge than a F135 engine which far larger and heavier.

[fanne]

I meant 110 kgf. The empty weight of mk2 is 20% more than mk1, yet many systems are common. In fact the wings are exactly same - all dimensions and shape. A theoretical available engine (like Al-31 f against a theoretical out of the world great engine but not available) can be perhaps put on lca, making it a j10 class of plane. Of course all of this is theoretical. We all know that the most fair, democratic, keeper of its word will give us the engine (I believe they will eventually).

[VishnuS]

Whoever said that putting AL-31F in MK2 doesn't know a thing about A/Cs!!

The air mass flow of MK1 is 78Kg/s and this limitation is the reason we didn't put GE F414 & thus MK2 was born!!

[basant]

Yes, those were the golden days.

LYNN, MASSACHUSETTS -- India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has selected 99 F414 GE fighter jet engines to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force.

John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding Air Force and Naval requirements. Technical advances include a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features.

"We are extremely pleased with the ADA's decision and are confident India's technical expertise will help enhance the F414-powered LCA's mission superiority well into the 21st century," said Tony Mathis, general manager of Lynn Military Systems programs at GE Aviation.

Source: GE Aerospace, press release (October 01, 2010)

[Cain Marko]

Whoever said that putting AL-31F in MK2 doesn't know a thing about A/Cs!!

The air mass flow of MK1 is 78Kg/s and this limitation is the reason we didn't put GE F414 & thus MK2 was born!!

Err but they are not taking about mk1 now are they?

[Rakesh]

India to begin production of LCA Mark2 jets by 2029, 5th gen fighter AMCA by 2035
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 811185955/
11 August 2024

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1822666788884078613 --->

1) Production of all 180 Tejas Mk 1A expected to be concluded by 2032.

https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1822841916108460162 ---> That’s a bit too optimistic right? With a confirmed 16 per year rate by the end of 2029, HAL can finish the first 83 Mk1A order. But how can 97 Mk1A be produced in 3 years from 2030-2032 while at the same time Mk2 is also being produced?

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1822857259216490794 ---> Another production line of 8/year...yes, it's still quite optimistic and that too if everything goes absolutely well, which isn't in reality.

[Prem Kumar]

Given the recent white-faced lies from the HAL Chairman about Mk1a deliveries, any estimates from HAL can be assumed to be fake unless proven otherwise

[Pratyush]

With capacity building with the sud assembly suppliers. It's should be possible to increase throughput in the existing assembly lines.

The knowledge that 97 additional MK1A are on orders, the sub assembly suppliers can hear up for the production in the timelines mentioned above.

But the point stands. Just because it's possible. Doesn't mean it will happen by default.

Especially within the Indian context.

[basant]

HAL is a PSU responsible for the production of Mk2. They obtain several components from various sources and assemble the a/c. They can be blamed if the delay is at assembly stage, not if there are issues with suppliers, esp. for irreplicable items like engines. The development of eco system for components benefits HAL but it is not their mandate and they have no funds to do so. A while ago, power production in the country suffered due to shortage of coal. Today, one cannot simply go and setup data centres with state of art systems as there is about six month delay for switches and high end electronic hardware across the world. These things do happen and sometimes there is nothing the production entities can do about it.

For strategic and high end ventures, it is the norm to have hire and fire policies and hiring people with advanced skills at discretionary salaries. Is HAL allowed the luxury? I doubt if HAL can go for L2 vendor even if they believe L1 cannot deliver or meet the quality due to General Financial Rules (GFRs). Is anyone advocating discretionary power? If HAL can deliver ALH Dhruv on schedule and Su-30 MKIs too, why is there a doubt regarding the Mk2? Stabilized supply chains are critical. Without that HAL can train its people and have more than necessary production lines ready. For the rest, GoI will have to take initiative and responsibility.

Also, no one manufactures very expensive customized products for a single uncommitted buyer. As I posted in the other thread, GE F414 manufacturing issue was being discussed at least since 2010. But without firm orders, no one will come to agreement on the final price and conditions. Not even most of the street vendors.

[Nikhil_Naya]

An aircraft engine is a 'super long' lead time item. What is often taken for granted in a manufacturing setup as production losses (now with Six sigma and TQMS, etc - astronomical efficiency) for an low bypass TF - a one sigma - for all the associated parts that goes into it is a great thing. Imagine replacing dies/ bits in CNC machines etc when the tolerance drops by a few microns. If HAL places the order now - the manufacturing company will place orders with its suppliers now - the first assembly will probably take 48 months give or take.
The issue here is with the 2020 supply chain disruption - this 48 month period has just got over (say resumption in 2021 December - the 48 month period is Dec 2023). It WILL take at least another 6 months before the supply chain to GE stabilizes before they can stabilize the further supply chain.

[maitya]

HAL set to receive another LCA Order despite delivery challenges
Nothing new that's not already known ...

[Pratyush]

https://idrw.org/deal-for-additional-97 ... d-sources/

Published on 19th August 2024.

It says that if GE is unable to ramp up production of the 404 by 2025-26. Then the order for additional 97 aircraft will be delayed.

From the POV of other sub assembly of the aircraft. This actually makes zero sense. As even they will not have any clarity to scale up the production at their end.

Second, if GE itself is not sure of actual number of engines required. Then how is it expected to scale the production for additional aircrafts.

[JTull]

No one seems to explain why we're willing to produce GE-414 but not willing to produce GE-404 engines in India.

[Prem Kumar]

Even if we did, it wouldn't solve the problem because it seems to be happening upstream in the GE Supply Chain

Plus I think there might be some hanky-panky going on with the US Deep State trying to slow/scuttle our indigenous aircraft programs by these delays

All the more reason that India needs a National Powerplant Mission, like yesterday

[Rakesh]

https://idrw.org/deal-for-additional-97 ... d-sources/

Please stop posting news links from IDRW. None of their stuff can be verified.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1825484895134920757 ---> I do not get the logic behind news stating “Additional LCA MK1A order is on hold”. If order isn’t placed; how it can be on hold?

[Rakesh]

Drag & Drop the pictures in this post, into new windows on your browser.

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/18 ... 6142255419 ---> Tejas Mk1A

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1823638887312285958 ---> We have received confirmation that the Tejas Mk1A’s new Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) re-certifications have been successfully completed. It is anticipated that the initial batch of these advanced aircraft will be delivered to the Indian Air Force by mid-next month, marking a significant milestone in our ongoing efforts to enhance our nation’s air defense capabilities.

[ashishvikas]

https://idrw.org/deal-for-additional-97 ... d-sources/

Please stop posting news links from IDRW. None of their stuff can be verified.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1825484895134920757 ---> I do not get the logic behind news stating “Additional LCA MK1A order is on hold”. If order isn’t placed; how it can be on hold?

US firm behind delay in LCA Tejas Mk1A deliveries to IAF: Here's how
https://www-business--standard-com.cdn. ... 652_1.html
19 Aug 2024

Despite concern over delays in the delivery of LCA Tejas Mk1A aircraft, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is reportedly expected to receive a new order from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for an additional 97 jets of the same type.
According to a recent Financial Express report, the contract for additional LCA Tejas Mk1As, estimated to be worth Rs 67,000 crore, could be finalised by the end of the year. If awarded, this contract would be the second major order for the LCA Mk1As, following the Rs 48,000 crore contract for 83 jets signed in February 2021.

[Rakesh]

Thank You Ashish Saar. Not a single word in there about the 97 Mk1A order being put *ON HOLD* due to delivery delays in the GE F404 turbofan.

[ashishvikas]

I firmly believe 97 MK1A is coming.. we are really short of numbers and there's No Alternative.

Only Mk2 can kill additional Mk1A, but it seems it would take time to get ready.

HAL would take 1-2 years from now to come to 16/year, but once it reaches there it becomes ALH and hit jobs shifts to MK2.

[Rakesh]

180 Tejas Mk1A and 201 Tejas Mk2 are *BOTH* happening. The orders will be placed and deliveries will occur.

Both are needed to justify importing additional Rafales or whatever other MRFA is chosen.

[ramana]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1821189513861021841 ---> There exists an IAF Project Management Team from IAF in ADA. Still no one in IAF had the idea about the delay in GE-404 engines?

Probably spend halcyon days eating Dosa at MTR. Then go back to headquarters.

[ramana]

Rakesh, the Ukraine war cut off alloys from Russia that go into US engines. Now they are looking at alternates. So there is a delay. Govt will take right decision.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1828325065139650749 ---->
For all our ‘atmanirbhar’ ambitions, a grave reminder of the perils of non-stop dependence on foreign imports — delays in the supply of American GE jet engines have pushed back the induction of new Tejas fighters into the IAF by over a year.

[Prem Kumar]

This is enemy action. The US has turned openly hostile towards us & Rajnath is out there bootlicking for some useless Strykers. Cringe.

1) Just yesterday, Modi spoke to that dumbass Biden and raised concern about Hindus in Bangladesh. The White House press release explicitly left that part out
2) Then Zelensky revealed his inner-Pakiness post meeting with Modi
3) Bangladesh, of course

If rumors are to be believed, the US brokered a ceasefire between India & Pak so that there is pressure off Pak Army when US withdrew from Afghanistan. They return the favor by opening a 3rd front in Bangladesh. Pakis return the favor via friend-China in Galwan & by infiltrating SSGs/BAT/Jihadis into India.

Not looking good on the resume of MAD.

[Aditya_V]

Rakesh, the Ukraine war cut off alloys from Russia that go into US engines. Now they are looking at alternates. So there is a delay. Govt will take right decision.

South Korea got all the F404 they wanted, US has been producing F414 engines, F 135 engines. Surely if alloy is available for these, it would be available for 20 F404s.

[ArjunPandit]

do we have everything else for the airframes ready? can airframes be assembled without engines

[VKumar]

Rakesh, the Ukraine war cut off alloys from Russia that go into US engines. Now they are looking at alternates. So there is a delay. Govt will take right decision.

Very interesting that Russia supplies alloys for US jet engines!

[Rakesh]

do we have everything else for the airframes ready? can airframes be assembled without engines?

To serve what end?