Indian Roads Thread

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Jul 2012 20:34

vina-saar, forget ro-ro, even normal trains gasp and pant at sidings due to the heavy load on the existing tracks, despite double tracks in the southern half of Kerala. If that is the case in the more rail-developed Southern half of Kerala, forget the single-tracked Malabar areas. There is no scope for expansion of lines possible along the current alignment. That is why proposals like HSR are being mooted

The only way out is that expressway project along a new alignment, that Bade-saar pointed out. Shree MK Muneer was the best minister among that particular coalition partner. But he had to be sidelined by the creepy faction, due to a weakened CM. A stronger leader like Shree AKA (in whose tenure as CM, that expressway proposal was gaining some traction) or a really strong willed one like late Shree Karunakaran would have ensured Shree Muneer is given space to implement.

His planning during Shree AKA's stint and the timely execution of some projects during Shree Chandy's first stint, even as a junior minister was impressive enough to get grudging respect from hardened veterans like Shree Vakkom, in the form of a golden ring

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Jul 2012 21:34

hnair, since you are close to the eyes and ears of the corridors of power

, where is the expressway of hope headed now ? Hear so little about it these days. Even less than the HSR which too makes good sense.

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Jul 2012 21:48

hnair wrote:vina-saar, forget ro-ro, even normal trains gasp and pant at sidings due to the heavy load on the existing tracks, despite double tracks in the southern half of Kerala.

Sorry. I was being sarcastic. The ro-ro thing was a joke. But surely, don't tell me that Kerala cant get their collective mundus together to build a friggin road and pay for it! It is ridiculous. The "National Highway" linking Kochi to TVM is simply a pathetic excuse of a road , long past its carrying capacity. You need a triple lane carriageway with access control from Mangalore to TVM (okay Triple lane from Kochi-Kollam-TVM).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 Jul 2012 21:58

Pleasu, not to forget TVM to NJC to KKM connector to NH-7. Right now NJC to KKM connector is nonviable due to lack of toll traffic. Even NJC to Muttom is nonviable.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Jul 2012 22:03

Instead of doing TVM to KK to get to NH-7 to go all the way north would it be better to cut north-east to join close to Madurai for better connectivity. There are already state roads there which can be upgraded isn't it.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 Jul 2012 22:06

Ah! the Tenkasi connector through the hills. Yes we need both please.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Jul 2012 22:27

Bade wrote:hnair, since you are close to the eyes and ears of the corridors of power

you mistake me for someone else. Me, humble citijen who carries a "L-G Asafoetida" bag near Secretariat Buildings and watches the antics with slack-jaws, saar....

, where is the expressway of hope headed now ? Hear so little about it these days. Even less than the HSR which too makes good sense.

Munthiri-valli rustles to convey that it is pretty much hopeless, as long as the creepy faction of the coalition is ruling the roost. Their intellectual level is not rated very high. Hence the focus is on easy moolah off real-estate aspects than a little more harder moolah off big-infra.

The paleo-commies like Shree Veliyam has been subdued, so I believe Left will not object, if it comes up again. But other events made sure the expressway remains in the backburner, including HSR surge as well as ministerial sidelining.

Two ministers who can get this done are Shree MKMuneer and Shree KBG. Both have been sidelined, though the later is a far more a bare-knuckle fighter than the more genteel Shree MKM and is making his mark. Like Dr MMS, the current CM is capable as an independent minister under a strong CM, but seem stretched thin. Plus he has the creepy faction constantly monkeying on his shoulders.

Word is that CM desperately wants to have a lasting legacy and time is running out (apparently Governships were being waved about in front of his face... by dastardly enemies inside party

) . Hence the rush for moving with HSR, than Expressway (which is considered an AKA legacy

)..... sigh.

vina wrote: Sorry. I was being sarcastic. The ro-ro thing was a joke. But surely, don't tell me that Kerala cant get their collective mundus together to build a friggin road and pay for it! It is ridiculous. The "National Highway" linking Kochi to TVM is simply a pathetic excuse of a road , long past its carrying capacity. You need a triple lane carriageway with access control from Mangalore to TVM (okay Triple lane from Kochi-Kollam-TVM).

vina-saar, how can I take anything you say as sarcasm? I treat every word seriously. Usually what you and theo-saar says are 400% correct in Kerala matters

Regarding the road, yeah, the current NH being tolled is prickly and despite collective BRF-wisdom, an Amma or a Modi-mama wont last even a week in Kerala's professional politics if they try PRC takknikks on such matters. The problem IMHO is this - the simple words "master plan" scares the beejesus out of town-planners in Kerala even today. A master-plan for any town with clause that says "no constructions for 100metres from road median of NH or SH" back in the 70s would have ensured a lot of things. Same for rails.

Theo_Fidel wrote:Pleasu, not to forget TVM to NJC to KKM connector to NH-7. Right now NJC to KKM connector is nonviable due to lack of toll traffic. Even NJC to Muttom is nonviable.

What Theo-saar!!! We in Trivandrum are depending on you guys to pull our chestnuts out on that NJC to KKM connector. The other part till Karode, I believe is slowly creaking to life. One of those things that Dr Tharoor has done his best...

Bade-saar, that route through Punalur-Thenkasi is not exactly a fast route due to ghats. Unless they tunnel etc, which I doubt makes sense..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Jul 2012 22:38

I do hope at least one of either the HSR or the expressway gets built between TVM and Kochi for personal reasons within a decade.

Anything else further north will be a bonus.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2012 03:21

then land acquisition should be done in a commie way like in china, within a years time. or put more gelf money and make it elevated where needed.

distribute the project into multiple sections so that it can be executed in parallel. a 600km line could be split into 6 contracts executing in parallel.. so early completion time.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 Jul 2012 06:15

Hnair,

Well.. ..NHAI says N-47 thru NJC project is nonviable without TVM link. Esp. for the Panagudi connector. Contractors won't touch it now. And to be honest most of us have family in TVM and need that connector a bit more than NH-7. The NH-7 route was always relatively easy, now it is 4-lane for touristy types to breeze through a lush vacation spot, esp. during hot monsoon. But for locals the connection to the North remains a very strong.....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2012 07:58

imo Kerala is not a special case of heavy urbanization along highways. there are areas around the major metros in similar nature - blr is expanded upto beyond hosur now in a continuous stream and beyond bidadi now toward mysore..soon ramanagaram a separate district will be part of the 'greater metro' area.
west bengal is another place that is very heavily populated esp the southern half.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jul 2012 09:07

I agree WB is also densely populated and probably with a similar spread in density to KL. But in KA one does see pockets of heavy density and much of open areas. Just check even around Devanahalli today. Some of those open areas are now converted plots bought by the new arrivals along with locals who reside within city limits. One never sees tightly bound village centers in KL like one sees in KA or elsewhere in India. In WB maybe the areas where land reforms got enacted there is a similar spread as in KL.

All this makes land acquisition more difficult as more people need to be displaced and people are desperately depended on land even for subsistence living. In the case of KL individual holding has reduced to levels of plotted developments outside of Blr, even in rural areas which makes acquisitions even harder to do due to the fractured nature of land holding.

People are already moving to living in flats there, unthinkable two decades back. As land gets even more expensive to hold and buy, there will be more migration away from rural areas and will likely free up land. Needless to say it will also change the landscape as it modernizes even more.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Jul 2012 09:56

hnair wrote:Regarding the road, yeah, the current NH being tolled is prickly and despite collective BRF-wisdom, an Amma or a Modi-mama wont last even a week in Kerala's professional politics if they try PRC takknikks on such matters. ..

Ok. If Kerala doesn't want tolled roads, build toll free roads like in California /West Coast. Don't go for the east coast/midwest model. I hated all the tolls in the NE. Nothing like driving from SF to SD with nary a toll and wide open roads.

So, sure,put extra taxes on fuel like CA does and you can build the roads in KL! The trouble is if you want NHAI to build it, but don't want to pay back, either via tolls or via fuel taxes (which get transferred to NHAI).

So add around 0.5Rs per liter of petrol & diesel as taxes and you can have a nice 3 lane dual carriage way "smoother than Hema Malini's cheeks" all the way from Mangalore to Kanyakumari.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 04 Jul 2012 12:38

Dileep wrote:As it is, you are going to slow down at every junction because of turning/merging traffic, which happens every 2-3km, so what is the bigg deal?

Honestly, I have not commuted on that road. But how are the exits now? A big four lane highway and smaller roads leading left and right (with the median on the middle of the highway opened up as well)? In that case yes, with the vehicle density in the area vehicles on the high way would have to slow down. I was thinking of a case where people who wish to take the exit, kind of ease out to the left at an exit ramp say 500ms before. This is how it is done in some points on NICE Road in Bengaluru.

Bade wrote:Sachin, if metro can run on pillars why not use existing railway land to do commuter only overhead tracks. No new land acquisition would be required then no ?

Could be possible. But pretty much every station need to be a "double decker" station as well. Upper deck reserved for the over-head train. Secondly, there are lots of bridges which may need to be reworked upon. There is a huge investment required here. Indian Railways being a nation wide organisation would have very many other priorities. Or else Kerala Govt. would have to arrange the funds, and get the railways to lay commuter specific lines.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jul 2012 13:00

BTW, the Mannuthy-Wadakancherry section is under construction now. There are several stretches that have at least some earth compacting done. Also, demolition of buildings, blasting of rocks and filling of low areas also happening. Saw both side approaches to the Kuthiran Tunnel being filled.

The biggest mistake with the Kerala Expressway was the publishing of the MBAgiri project report, with the proposal detailing 100M ROW, rail line, roadway etc. Those are good to be presented in a business meeting, but it will immediately scare away the people. They should have made TWO reports. One for MBAgiri, and the other for consumption for the public.

I believe, if it was presented properly, they could have got it through.

I think fuel surcharge of 1% can work. There will be a couple of hartals, but eventually things will work out.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 04 Jul 2012 16:16

Dileep wrote:Saw both side approaches to the Kuthiran Tunnel being filled.

How this area planned to be widened? Or are they totally taking a different road alignment.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jul 2012 18:36

A brand new alignment.

On the south side, the new alignment hits the hill pretty close to where the current road hits it. On the north side, the new alignment crosses the ravine and hits the hill face about half a km away. The tunnel, as per google earth, goes right under the peak of the hill, around 1.5km long.

I saw the approaches being filled and leveled.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jul 2012 19:13

Dileep wrote:BTW, the Mannuthy-Wadakancherry section is under construction now. There are several stretches that have at least some earth compacting done. Also, demolition of buildings, blasting of rocks and filling of low areas also happening. Saw both side approaches to the Kuthiran Tunnel being filled.

Good to read that. After Wadakancherry the terrain is quite flat, from palakkad all the way to the border and nothing significant on both sides that cannot be demolished or rebuilt at some cost.

The biggest mistake with the Kerala Expressway was the publishing of the MBAgiri project report, with the proposal detailing 100M ROW, rail line, roadway etc. Those are good to be presented in a business meeting, but it will immediately scare away the people. They should have made TWO reports. One for MBAgiri, and the other for consumption for the public.

I believe, if it was presented properly, they could have got it through.

Maybe, it was too early for its times. It would have faced less opposition today, but for the escalation in costs now. Who would have thought it would easy to flatten land near the islands to build the ICTT road which will be a pretty wide one almost NHAI standards from the looks of it, or even the rail bridge through the backwaters connecting ICTT. Now they are talking about connecting a few more islands north to get faster to the NH-17/NH-66 closer to parur.

I think fuel surcharge of 1% can work. There will be a couple of hartals, but eventually things will work out.

Fuel tax is the best way if you want to spread the pain.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 Jul 2012 20:45

That doesn't strike me as particularly fair. Cars are disproportionate users of roads. So now folks in the Idukki hills who will never use the road get to pay for folks down below to glide on 'Hema Malini's' Cheeks. Fuel tax is also a regressive tax that affects the poor more than the rich, esp. WRT to food supply. It will also drive away business sentiment. I would warn against it.

Pay the toll guys. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 Jul 2012 20:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:

Pay the toll guys. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

+1

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jul 2012 20:58

But this is not an access controlled road we are talking about, no ? When and if the Kerala Expressway gets built toll that to ones hearts content.

I see no reason to let two-wheelers to be given a pass either. A fuel tax spreads it across for sure.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 Jul 2012 21:01

Bade wrote: Fuel tax is the best way if you want to spread the pain.

Fuel is already heavily taxed commodity in India. Toll is for actual users of the road. Hence best way to collect/recover construction cost.

Also I beleive use of Public transport should be encouraged and TN is good example of it. Muct invest in better quality public transport infrastructure.Provide comfort and convenience of high order to ween away car users who waste road space.
Delhi Metro is good example.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jul 2012 21:03

It is not like people residing in idukki hills do not get subsidized either. Just travel on the new rubberised roads from chalakudy to the hills or the numerous tertiary roads, which are used by locals mostly, so the fuel tax is a way to pay for them too which they do not now, right ? Limited socialism is not a bad idea.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 Jul 2012 21:09

Bade wrote:It is not like people residing in idukki hills do not get subsidized either. Just travel on the new rubberised roads from chalakudy to the hills or the numerous tertiary roads, which are used by locals mostly, so the fuel tax is a way to pay for them too which they do not now, right ? Limited socialism is not a bad idea.

If they use fuel, certainly they pay taxes and a part of it goes for secondary and tertiary roads. If they dont use then fuel tax would not affect them.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Jul 2012 08:31

Theo_Fidel wrote:Hnair,

Well.. ..NHAI says N-47 thru NJC project is nonviable without TVM link. Esp. for the Panagudi connector. Contractors won't touch it now. And to be honest most of us have family in TVM and need that connector a bit more than NH-7. The NH-7 route was always relatively easy, now it is 4-lane for touristy types to breeze through a lush vacation spot, esp. during hot monsoon. But for locals the connection to the North remains a very strong.....

Glad to hear that, saar. Really glad to hear that....

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 05 Jul 2012 10:02

Theo_Fidel wrote: Pay the toll guys. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

An equitable toll is very welcome. The problem is having to pay Rs 50, whether you use 5km or 50km of the highway. I think opposition will fizzle away if there are toll at every 10km, paying Rs 10 each. That is better than having no highway at all.

Another idea would be to surcharge on the sales tax by the shops on the highway. You have too many, and those are the guys oppose the widening. They get a lot of business because of the highway, and let them contribute.

Fuel surcharge maybe limited to bunks that are located on or within 5km of the highway.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2012 16:59

this thread is like the WW2 in Malaya. elite nair and nambiar warriors creeping around silently in the dripping green hilly jungle, emerging occasionally to throw a firebomb or shuriken before melting away, pack howitzers carried by humans and put to localized use in isolated firefights....

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 Jul 2012 02:53

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 03:15

.. hope they would at the very least fill the potholes later.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 07:39

for those not aware, amar chitra katha has the story on Thacholi Othenan. moment I saw it bought it for my kid.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_x3J8H0dELA0/S ... 00/109.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 08:35

I also heard stories from my uncle that he is a great womanizer too. needs confirmation.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2012 09:03

What is Othena Kurup doing in this thread ?

The four planned flyovers for NH-47 bypass within Cochin is now in cold storage due to toll issues.

So how does Delhi and Bengaluru and other capitalist havens solve this issue. There are umpteen flyovers being built on ORR, so how is it all paid for ? I did not see toll booths on ORR at least.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 09:09

Indic children need to be aware of their heroes not just abraham lincoln or god forbid winston churchill.

BDA is paying for the flyovers within the city. the issue with NHAI tolling the road just before entry to BIAL is still not settled though toll plaza is ready long ago.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jul 2012 11:07

Singha wrote:BDA is paying for the flyovers within the city. the issue with NHAI tolling the road just before entry to BIAL is still not settled though toll plaza is ready long ago.

Also in Bengaluru for quite some time that there is an extra cess on petrol (of Rs.1). The fund raised like this is to be used for city's development, and some of this may be used for the fly overs as well. BTW, in Socialist Republic a team which went for land survey for the metro project was sent back after the locals staged as protest. The game has begun.

.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2012 20:10

Where did you hear that ? This is what I could google up. Here the people seems to be demanding market compensation on land acquired. That cannot be blamed on ills of socialism can you ?

http://newindianexpress.com/cities/koch ... 558904.ece

Ok found it !
http://newindianexpress.com/cities/koch ... 558930.ece

The agitators pointed out there is lack of communication from the part of the officials.

Vagueness persists regarding the road alignment through the Vyttila-Petta stretch, said Corporation former Opposition leader A B Sabu.

“Six months ago, we had a meeting with District Collector P I Sheik Pareeth, Thrikkakara MLA Benny Behanan and Kochi Metro Rail managing director Tom Jose. During the meeting they had agreed for an alignment of 26 metre, instead of 30 metre. Now without any official communication, the PWD officials have come to acquire 30 metres of land,” he said.

The agitators further demanded that they should be given proper rehabilitation package and official assurance about the 26-metre alignment.

“The authorities concerned are yet to talk about the rehabilitation package. We must be given a assurance about the rehabilitation of residents near Champakkara fish market and Petta Warehousing godown,” he said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jul 2012 06:02

lorries on havoc.. and normally most large vehicles disregard medium sized vehicles.. especially boozed lorry drivers.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... epage=true
how many stories like this we have to hear?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 10 Jul 2012 20:30

Bade wrote:Where did you hear that ? This is what I could google up. Here the people seems to be demanding market compensation on land acquired. That cannot be blamed on ills of socialism can you ?

I am not blaming socialism here. But looks like E.Sreedharan (and DMRC) have a really uphill task this time. Yes, let us work out the market value as compensation, and wait for the next one

.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 Jul 2012 20:41

Yes we have heard these barbs before too.

Remember CIAL, yes the first private airport functioning with no commie/socialist/hartal issues in wonder of wonder the only socialist republic state in India for almost a decade now. Wonder why the airport staff don't do more samarams and thod phod like elsewhere.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 Jul 2012 20:47

If Sreedharan can single handedly get JICA loan for HSR (likely, else it is a no go) and Kochi metro, wonder what is stopping a much less expensive (when compared to HSR) fully tolled access controlled expressway being constructed with similar source of funding.

Since there is no Japanese tech for roads like trains, so no incentive for such a investment from Japan I guess.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 14 Jul 2012 18:16

Bhyphor you need metro when the poor and oppressed working class cannot make use of it, saare? Only MNCs and IT-VITYwallas, who are anyway either right wing or clueless about politics to vote for the party, will benefit from this. So expect strong protest from the local champions of socialist cause. It is going to get nasty.