Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Mar 2010 12:53

shukla wrote:Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India

The Pakistan Navy is likely to acquire seven 'conventional' submarines and is in discussions with China and France for finalising the deal. According to sources, negotiations are also on with Germany to purchase three U-214 type submarines.

Sources within the Pakistan Navy said that a high level naval delegation would be visiting France next week to finalise the deal with French DCN Company for Marline submarines.Islamabad is de eply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.

It is pertinent to mention here that a German company-HDW had drawn up technical specifications for three U-214 submarines, and a billion dollar contract was almost finalised, but the deal could not materialise due to some unknown reasons.

Let us see....hmmm....U-214(3 number) not finalized and PN wants 4 other subs.....and who will pay for these? When PAF is facing difficulty in securing the "credit" for 2nd batch of JF-17?......Oh!!!wet dreams...thy name is Pakistan......

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Mar 2010 17:36

^ that should appear in MSM news soon.
Hopefully will create a hype big enough to fast track the next line of sub purchases for India!

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 27 Mar 2010 17:42

US to provide 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan
Saturday, March 27, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The United States has agreed to provide another 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said at a media briefing Saturday.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Mar 2010 18:01

shravan wrote:The United States has agreed to provide another 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said at a media briefing Saturday.

Great.. Sell 'em F-16 Block 50's.. Then sell us Block 60's.. Then sell 'em JSF in 10 years.. Then sell us the F-22 in 20 years (well sounds impossible now but 10 yrs ago if someone had said F-16/F-18 would be offered to IAF, who'd believe that?) ...

Looks like the only winner is freaking Unkil!! Kick the F-18's and the F-16's out of the race straight away.. or even better take 'em to the final stage and reject them in the end... grrrr

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Mar 2010 18:49

Giving drones would change US image: Pakistan

Pakistan's foreign minister said Thursday that the United States would improve its public standing if it let Islamabad spearhead drone attacks. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, in Washington for high-level talks, acknowledged in a CNN interview that drone attacks by US forces against Islamic extremists on Pakistani soil have "taken out some valuable targets." But he said: "The issue of sovereignty is there. People of Pakistan feel strongly about it." "We want the ownership. We make the decision when to operate," he said. "It will help improve the feelings in Pakistan." Asked if the United States had agreed to his request, he said: "I don't think so."

The United States has carried out nearly 100 attacks with unmanned drones in Pakistan since August 2008, killing more than 830 people. Figures range widely on how many civilians have been killed. US authorities have given Pakistan surveillance drones but have hesitated at giving them lethal drones, which are run remotely by Americans. US officials have long suspected that elements in Pakistan's powerful intelligence service remain sympathetic to Islamic extremists and have tipped them off about impending attacks. But Qureshi, meeting on Wednesday with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, said that US suspicions about Pakistan have evaporated after the nation's major offensive last year against homegrown Taliban.

Drone attacks, which kill targets without directly putting US lives at risk, enjoy wide support in Washington. A legal expert however recently told Congress that the US refusal to spell out a rationale for drone attacks could lead foreign courts to prosecute Americans.

Yes.. I agree.. Infact giving Paki's armed drones would not only change US image in Pak but in India as well

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Mar 2010 19:21

K Mehta wrote:^ that should appear in MSM news soon.
Hopefully will create a hype big enough to fast track the next line of sub purchases for India!

Seeing our procurement saga(s) these days, the only hope for fast induction is Pak getting some comparable freebie leading us to make emergency purchases!!!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 27 Mar 2010 19:25

shukla wrote:
Yes.. I agree.. Infact giving Paki's armed drones would not only change US image in Pak but in India as well

these drones are very essential for paf, because it does not wants to rely on fantasy pilots who can shoot down five IAF jets and all predator drones in 30 seconds

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 27 Mar 2010 20:41

Guys imho i think america has understood that it is not going to win the mrca and decided to sell f-16 to pakistan to just keep the production running at home ,otherwise it have to shut the plant. And i think french too came to know that rafael has failed and are offering pakistan submarines just to keep money coming . As french will sell anything to anybody if they have moola.
I dont think germany will sell anything to pakistan since they recently took a decision in there parliament not to offer any military tech to pakistan as it will effect indias ties with germany. I think this might be because of eurofighter .

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 27 Mar 2010 21:07

The F-16s that Singapore stations on our base.... how useful are they for us to learn from... are they better than the ones pukis operate....beyond the radar signatures and dogfighting abilities what more can we learn ? and also why are we so paranoid abt F-16s.... is it their BVR or we just want to make some noise, so that pukis feel they have the greatest and the best

( i dont mind that at all ) ...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Mar 2010 21:26

sawant, they fly block52, same as PAF's latest f-16s. as for why we make a noise, well for one IAF doesn't, not any more. but when they were introduced they were a *very* big deal in the Indian sub-continent, we ended up buying mig-23, mirages and mig-29s to counter the threat.
since then IAF has progressed and f-16s are no longer as big a threat but DDM hasn't kept up with the news. they are still PAF's sharpest tools in the kit though.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2010 22:26

shukla wrote:Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India

Marline submarines.Islamabad is de eply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.

Smart and Predictable move by PN and an effective one as well.

The French Marlin and Yuan (modified Kilo ) are absolutely modern conventional submarine , while PN will have to shed some billion $$ to buy Marlin, their chinese friend will be more than happy to supply Yuan on easy credit to keep IN in check , considering they already operate modern Agosta 90B subs , a conventional fleet of 10 - 12 modern SSK will keep IN at bay during war and keep most of the force effectively engaged in timeconsuming ASW operation , at the least it would limit IN flexibility during war and a sub can do much more than that

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 27 Mar 2010 22:49

Austin wrote:
shukla wrote:Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India

Marline submarines.Islamabad is de eply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.
Smart and Predictable move by PN and an effective one as well.

The French Marlin and Yuan (modified Kilo ) are absolutely modern conventional submarine , while PN will have to shed some billion $$ to buy Marlin, their chinese friend will be more than happy to supply Yuan on easy credit to keep IN in check , considering they already operate modern Agosta 90B subs , a conventional fleet of 10 - 12 modern SSK will keep IN at bay during war and keep most of the force effectively engaged in timeconsuming ASW operation , at the least it would limit IN flexibility during war and a sub can do much more than that

yea...its indeed a smart move...if pukistan can afford it...

but on a serious not , it can definately make a check to IN...only if 4 Yuan are added in the PN.

if France agree to sell merlin, which is considered as up model of scorpian then i think they are playing the US game..to keep their industry running....

Best option for IN is to make the faster procurement of Lada (though direct sales) then going for this RFI and all.....
and push this frenchmans for early delivery of scorpians....along with our home made nuke subs....

I hope its Puki Gubbara...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Mar 2010 04:04

Pakistan will also participate in a joint exercise with the US, he said. He added that the PAF had not asked the US for drone technology and that it would develop it on its own.

eh... sour grapes??

And yes, ofcourse they'd be developing their 'own' Chinese drones...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 732660.cms

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Mar 2010 05:02

A well-armed TSP is 3.5 friends' non-state actor.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Mar 2010 10:32

RamaY wrote:A well-armed TSP is 3.5 friends' non-state actor.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 29 Mar 2010 22:04

SSridhar wrote:
RamaY wrote:A well-armed TSP is 3.5 friends' non-state actor.

Sorry.. I didn't get the joke. Please care to explain?

Regards,
Kiran

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Mar 2010 22:38

I was under the impression that every one in Banagalore, Kerala know and understand the 3.5 Masters theory. There is enough clues in the old song, "Who let the dog out ?'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-puxVbr4v4

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Mar 2010 23:05

kiran, http://sites.google.com/site/brfdiction ... lf-friends

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 29 Mar 2010 23:25

Best option for IN is to make the faster procurement of Lada

lada is not offered 2 India it is the less capable variant Amur

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 30 Mar 2010 08:25

Drones May Ship to Pakistan 'Within a Year': DoD

"I would like to think that we would get them there within a year, but quantity and so forth, I think, will depend on what are the right ones, and how many make sense for the fight that they're in," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

"What we are trying to do is get with them to be able to articulate the requirements of what they need," the official said.

Efforts are underway by U.S. officials to "match the right equipment to the requirements. That's what we are trying to work them through."

With the time limit of one year...I hope they would be getting a second hand drones..

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 30 Mar 2010 09:50

You want to see them grinning and smirking together???

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8592472.stm

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 30 Mar 2010 10:31

sumshyam wrote:Drones May Ship to Pakistan 'Within a Year': DoD

"I would like to think that we would get them there within a year, but quantity and so forth, I think, will depend on what are the right ones, and how many make sense for the fight that they're in," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

"What we are trying to do is get with them to be able to articulate the requirements of what they need," the official said.

Efforts are underway by U.S. officials to "match the right equipment to the requirements. That's what we are trying to work them through."
With the time limit of one year...I hope they would be getting a second hand drones..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62S4V620100329

The Pentagon aims to deliver a fleet of surveillance drones to Pakistan within a year, but weaponized versions of the unmanned aircraft are still off-limits, a U.S. military official said on Monday.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced plans in January to provide Islamabad with what aides said at the time were 12 Shadow drones, aiming to boost its ability to track insurgents.

Islamabad has also pressed for weaponized drones, like the ones the CIA is covertly using in Pakistan to track and kill al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents.

The official, asked about that request, said general U.S. policy was not to export weaponized capabilities of any drone aircraft. Washington has been reluctant to share sensitive technology so far.

Pakistan is already using some non-U.S., imported drone technology and has modified a C-130 military transport aircraft to allow some surveillance activities, the official said.

Gates told a Senate hearing last week it was in the U.S. interest to try to help close allies get drone technology, despite limitations on exports imposed by an international pact, known as the Missile Technology Control Regime.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 30 Mar 2010 11:05

Pakistan to get 18 F-16s; Shadow drones likely within a year

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is scheduled to get 18 of the Block 52 F-16s, Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate by fall and is expected to receive Shadow Drones within a year, a Pentagon official has said.

Wasn't block 52 on offer for Indians ("we are offering more advacend F-16s as compared to Pakis") ?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Mar 2010 13:38

kenop wrote:Wasn't block 52 on offer for Indians ?

No, India was offered the 'block 60'..akin to the ones in service with the UAE.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Mar 2010 14:09

X Posted.

So much for the capabilities of the much vaunted military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

.

Taking a leaf out of the US book, Iran has now unilaterally launched a cross border operation into the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and freed an abducted diplomat of theirs.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is looking increasingly like a banana republic that is completely unable to protect its territorial sovereignty from unilateral actions of other nations and this should certainly be quite a blow to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s honour and dignity.

Trust our own MEA, MOD and PMO are taking note:

Iran agents free envoy nabbed in Pakistan in 2008: state TV

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

TEHRAN — Iranian agents have freed a diplomat from the Islamic republic who was kidnapped in Pakistan in November 2008, Iran state media reported on Tuesday, in an apparent cross-border operation.

"Iranian intelligence agents, in a complex operation, have released Heshmatollah Attarzadeh, the Iranian diplomat who was abducted in Pakistan, and brought him home," the official IRNA news agency said.

A separate report on state television's website said gunmen had abducted Atarzadeh on November 13, 2008 in the city of Peshawar, northwest Pakistan. He was on his way to an Iranian consulate when kidnappers killed his local guard.

Iranian media did not give details of Attarzadeh's release but indicated it could have been a cross-border operation...........................

AFP via Google

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Mar 2010 14:13

shukla wrote:
kenop wrote:Wasn't block 52 on offer for Indians ?
No, India was offered the 'block 60'..akin to the ones in service with the UAE.

Well, not exactly. India is offered F-16 IN, which is sometimes unofficially referred to as Block-70. It is an upgraded block 60, with the main additions being infra-red search and track pods, counter-electronic warfare pods and retractable refueling probe housed in the starboard conformal tank.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 31 Mar 2010 12:48

Bhavik, not here buddy. Post it in Nukkad thread.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 02 Apr 2010 22:55

France says arms sale to Pakistan held up

PARIS: France's plan to sell 1.2 billion euro ($1.6 billion) worth of military equipment for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said on Friday.

Newspaper Le Monde had reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles -- the first section of a 6 billion euro contract -- under pressure from India and uncertainty over Pakistan's finances.

“It's a deal that's not ready from the Pakistani side,” the source said, without giving further details. “For now, the state of the dossier doesn't allow us to carry on with it.”

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales <TCFP.PA> and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment.

France was also worried over insufficient protection of its technology, with Pakistan pushing to assemble the equipment on its soil, the paper said.

In February, MBDA said it planned to upgrade India's Mirage 2000 fighters and was looking to expand in India.—Reuters

Now only if the RD-33 procurement too gets held up due to lets say "quality control problems"

, that should steal the thunder out of the bandar .

Nair · Post by **Nair** » 03 Apr 2010 00:50

Lots of crying among the Pakis regarding failure of their grand plan to make the J-17 a mini rafale.

Though to be honest I doubt India had much to do with it, The French are probably scared that the Pandas will xerox anything they send over.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Apr 2010 01:23

Lilo wrote: Now only if the RD-33 procurement too gets held up due to lets say "quality control problems" , that should steal the thunder out of the bandar .

It is NOT sufficient to block techs to Pakistan. India needs to make quantum leap during the SAME time. The gap HAS to widen to the extent that there should not be such situations again.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Apr 2010 07:12

from ORBAT.com

Request to readers Anyone spot a Pakistan 2nd Cavalry Regiment or new/newish regiments with the numbers 1 and 3? Like the Indians did in 1985, the Pakistanis in the 1990s filled in a number of their missing regiments, the ones that went to India - 7, 8, 9, 14 and 18 for example - usually by changing the suffix, replacing "Lancers" with Horse or Cavalry for example. The Indians named their missing regiments - 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 19 as Armored Regiments. So with new raisings under way in Pakistan, restoring 1, 2, and 3 is logical. But has it happened? we have one reliable report of a 2nd Cavalry, but in this game there is reliable and there is reliable. Even the most reliable source needs to be cross-verified by at least one other reliable source, preferably two.

rohit, any progress on the PA armoured forces article ? dying to have a go at it.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Apr 2010 07:42

Nair wrote:Lots of crying among the Pakis regarding failure of their grand plan to make the J-17 a mini rafale.

Though to be honest I doubt India had much to do with it, The French are probably scared that the Pandas will xerox anything they send over.

They did. Read my post. They are now stuck between orders from India or Pak.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Apr 2010 10:32

Nair wrote:Lots of crying among the Pakis regarding failure of their grand plan to make the J-17 a mini rafale.

Though to be honest I doubt India had much to do with it, The French are probably scared that the Pandas will xerox anything they send over.

That will always remain a fact, if french can sell anyone, anything for money, then pakis can...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Apr 2010 10:57

Gaur wrote:
shukla wrote:
No, India was offered the 'block 60'..akin to the ones in service with the UAE.
Well, not exactly. India is offered F-16 IN, which is sometimes unofficially referred to as Block-70. It is an upgraded block 60, with the main additions being infra-red search and track pods, counter-electronic warfare pods and retractable refueling probe housed in the starboard conformal tank.

And the AESA radar.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Apr 2010 12:07

Rahul M wrote:<SNIP>..rohit, any progress on the PA armoured forces article ? dying to have a go at it.

Not yet. Was trying to work on the orbat and spread of armor. Will need some more time. lots of work.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Apr 2010 04:45

Gagan wrote:
Gaur wrote: Well, not exactly. India is offered F-16 IN, which is sometimes unofficially referred to as Block-70. It is an upgraded block 60, with the main additions being infra-red search and track pods, counter-electronic warfare pods and retractable refueling probe housed in the starboard conformal tank.
And the AESA radar.

UAE Block-60 is equipped with the APG-80 AESA radar.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Apr 2010 14:10

Link X Posted.

The Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan indulging in the practice of extra – judicial killings which they perfected on their Muslim co-religionists in Bangladesh in 1970 and 1971.

Can extra-judicial killings be construed as in keeping with the “Jihad in the Path Allah” or in urdu “Jihad fi Sabilillah” part of the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

abhishek_sharma wrote:Pakistan's Army Accused Of Extra - Judicial Killings

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/04/ ... ights.html

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Apr 2010 14:13

X Posted.

The Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seems to be indulging in a spot of cannibalism and have turned on their former members and not just any former members but former members of the ISI.

Taliban friendly former ISI members, Brigadier (Retd) Amir Sultan Tarar aka Colonel Imam and Squadron Leader (Retd) Khalid Khawaja have been kidnapped in Kohat.

Brigadier (Retd) Amir Sultan Tarar aka Colonel Imam was a star ISI member and credited with training the Taliban’s Mullah Omar (Times, UK)

Squadron Leader (Retd) Khalid Khawaja it will be recalled filed a constitutional petition in the Lahore High Court to prevent senior Taliban leaders like Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar from being interrogated by foreign intelligence agencies (ATimes). Khalid Khawaja had also disclosed that former Prime Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Nawaz sharif had met Osama Bin laden five times (The News).

Dawn :

Two former ISI officers, journalist missing from Kohat

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 06 Apr 2010 14:34

Indian Americans rally to block F-16s sale to Pakistan

NEW DELHI: A group of prominent Indian Americans, led by noted physician Sudhir Parikh, are lobbying hard to block Washington's sale of F-16 combat aircraft to Pakistan, drawing support from a large Congressional caucus.

"Our contention is the sals of F-16s to Pakistan will escalate the arms race in South Asia. This goes against US interests in the region and the world at large," said the New Jersey-based asthma and allergy specialist and publisher, here to receive the Padma Shri from President Pratibha Patil.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2010 12:46

Re: PAF related discussion: Jan - April 2010

PAF’s firepower demo marks precise hit at enemy targets

THAL RANGE, Apr 6 (APP): Making bomb runs with dive deliveries of weapons and hitting at enemy’s mock bunkers, the fighter aircraft of Pakistan Air Force on Tuesday demonstrated a high level of tactical preparedness featuring speed, precision and strength.With thunderous supersonic boom, the aircraft representing PAF’s fleet including F-16s, JF-17 Thunder, Mirages and F-7 JP appeared in the blue skies during PAF’s Firepower Demonstration at Thal Range, that spans over an area of 34,000 acres.
The demo started with two A-5 aircraft - one carrying a National Flag and the other with a welcome banner, flew past the audience including Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani, services chiefs, parliamentarians and PAF officials.

Two Mirage aircraft showcased the recently acquired aerial refuelling from the IL-76 refueller, maintaining a skilful distance of just 13-26 metres from the tanker.

An F-16 aircraft flying at an ultra-low altitude and releasing chaff and flares for self-defence, dropped two mark of 2,000 pound bombs at the target, that received a loud applause by the audience.

Four JF-17 thunder aircraft equipped with state-of-the-art avionics, dropped their weapons at 1,900 feet, targeting the mock hideouts of militants at 3 o’ clock position.

In an impressive performance, a Mirage aircraft flying at extremely low 200 feet, dropped its weapons at the enemy targets, while two F-16 at 250 km and maintaining a speed of 480 knots released two mark 84 bombs of 2000 pounds, at the targets.
Four Mirage - the Night Hawks, capable of low level penetration, allowing minimum time to the enemy and achieving surprise, dropped 5,000 pounds bombs. The weapons generated a high explosive effect against the hardened bunkers.

The H-2 weapon - a wide-range television guided missile, was dropped by two Mirage aircraft at a mud platform, staying at 100-140 kms away from the target, thus making it possible to create a lethal and precise attack at far-off range.

The PAF’s Special Service Wing demonstrated the targeting of terrorists’ hideouts in their exercise. A C-130 demonstrated the air to container delivery operation, while the MI 171 used as assault and anti-terrorist aircraft, showed the direct action by commandoes of Pakistan Army who landed swiftly from the aircraft and moved to the compound of terrorists.

The SAAB aircraft flew past the audience, that has a Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW & CS) with a capability to see and scan a target at 450 km distance.

In the end, the audience was enthralled as the ‘Sherdils’ - the aerobatic team of PAF Academy RisalPur, with T-37 aircraft approached emitting out red and green coloured fumes, and presented exquisite maneuvers followed by a wing-over demo.
The entire exercise was carried out in a near real situation with an objective of depicting fighter pilots’s capabilities of avoiding collateral damage and inflicting maximum damage to the enemy targets.