The Red Menace

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 15:56

ashish raval wrote: This is not because of lack of training, it is because of 0 intelligence input. India's intelligence apparatus is at level of least developed nations in the world and this is precisely the reason of the death. As long as GoI not strengthen intelligence it will suffer forever and brave jawans will become shahid's due to lack of willpower from government. Out intelligence gathering capacity is so so poor within the country how can we even think about becoming a super-power. A single shot at becoming superpower will throw gamut of political games and destabilizing forces from around the world. We will need another 25 years just to be intelligent enough to understand the world politics. At the moment we still need to solve internal problems.

We are ill-equipped, low on intelligence, under-trained, no sense of direction communicated to the jawans(lack of proper ideology) and not to mention. I do see a difference even for a layman between Indian Forces and lets say Israeli/American/Russian Forces. And no, I am not smitten by fancy equipment and airsoft moves. I do think, maybe its time for us to move out of the British Raj methodology in Personnel Training. Our Kill ratio isnt a good sight. We are loosing men, we need to stop and take stock, and reform. These men walked into an ambush. Where was the scout? Where was airsupport? Why isnt a mechanism there, when such a massacre is happening, the CRPF cant call on IAF for help!

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 15:57

Aditya_V wrote:From Media reports there 100-1000 maoists, why not drop an LGB from 20000ft from the air, no need to inform the media. This would have stopped the attack

Where are those Hinds?

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 06 Apr 2010 16:02

Dantewada massacre: The mastermind

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/dantewad ... -19345.php

NDTV Correspondent, Tuesday April 6, 2010, Dantewara

A 1000 Naxals, an early morning ambush, 73 CRPF men dead. Perhaps more. Who planned the Dantewada attack, the bloodiest-ever in the history of Naxalism?

There are reports that Naxal commander from Andhra Pradesh Katakam Sudarshan is behind the massacre. Sudarshan, alias Anand alias Mohan alias AN alias Birenderji, is a central committee member of the CPI (Maoist).

The physical description of the 53-year-old would suggest a teacher more than a man of violence. He is described as a stout man 5 feet two inches tall, of dark complexion. He has thick hair with graying sideburns and wears spectacles.

Sudarshan has been part of the Naxal movement for 30 years and is said to be a very good strategist.

He belongs to the weaver community in Bellampally, Adilabad district of Andhra Pradesh and studied at a polytechnic in Warangal. He was a student leader and then joined the Naxal movement.

Sudarshan is a powerful man in the CPI (Maoist) hierarchy. He heads the central regional bureau which covers the Andhra-Orissa Border, north Telangana zone and Dandakaranya (Chattisgarh).

Analysts say Sudarshan would have strategised this attack and given the nod, but would not have been physically present when the ambush happened.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 06 Apr 2010 16:06

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04 ... ml?_r=1&hp

Maoist Rebels Kill 60 Troops in India
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: April 6, 2010

Filed at 6:30 a.m. ET

PATNA, India (AP) -- Maoist rebels killed at least 60 paramilitary soldiers in attacks Tuesday in eastern India, a senior police official said, the most casualties since government forces launched an offensive against the insurgents last year.

At least 81 troops were part of a patrol party that came under attack in the rebel stronghold of Dantewada early Tuesday morning, R.K. Vij, the inspector general of state police said.

He said 60 bodies of the soldiers killed in at least two attacks had been recovered so far, and fighting between was continuing in the remote and heavily forested area. Eight wounded troops were also found.

Three soldiers were killed in an ambush and 17 others were killed when their vehicle was blown up by a land mine, Vij said.

The troops killed in the blast were on their way to recover the bodies of those killed in the earlier attack, he said.

Few other details are available from the area. The rebels rarely speak to the press, aside from issuing occasional statements.

''Fighting is still carrying on in the area, and we're having great difficulty getting news from there,'' said Ashok Dwivedi, an official at the police control room in state capital of Raipur.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 06 Apr 2010 16:29

Recently there has been a clamor for deployment of Army for the Naxal ops from the WB govt. the MOD and HM has resisted this move. West Bengal govt. has an eye on the next elections. This is a clear intelligence failure.

I do not recall Army or even CRPF being used to contain Naxal in AP. It was all done by AP Police by raising Greyhounds and the SIB. These took time to develop, but once developed it took 5 years to wipe them out.

Guys it takes time, and Army is not a silver bullet to eliminate Naxalism. It is a sad day, but again it is sad that it took this incident to bring BJP into the fold for anti-naxal operations.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 06 Apr 2010 16:34

Twitter: VishnuNDTV
Am now being told as many as 1000 Naxals were involved.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 06 Apr 2010 16:50

Kavu wrote: We are ill-equipped, low on intelligence, under-trained, no sense of direction communicated to the jawans(lack of proper ideology) and not to mention. I do see a difference even for a layman between Indian Forces and lets say Israeli/American/Russian Forces. And no, I am not smitten by fancy equipment and airsoft moves. I do think, maybe its time for us to move out of the British Raj methodology in Personnel Training. Our Kill ratio isnt a good sight. We are loosing men, we need to stop and take stock, and reform. These men walked into an ambush. Where was the scout? Where was airsupport? Why isnt a mechanism there, when such a massacre is happening, the CRPF cant call on IAF for help!

Their life is easy because their society, government and armed forces work in tandem in a way that the problem is either tackled or removed before it becomes a demon. India is one country which lets all demons eat, sleep, grow and become strong to an extent that it becomes a uphill task to destroy it. Kargil is a perfect example. A very simple fact. Kill ratio of American soldiers was worse in Vietnam wars while fighting Jungle warfare. Israeli's are fighting in open desert where you can see your enemy from several kilometers away. Key to Jungle warfare is intelligence and survival. Second depends on first. We dont have first so second is impossible to achieve against an enemy who knows every feet of land. Very very bad piece of handling by government. If I were HM, I would surely resign out of disgrace and shame. I would say politicians are indeed like crocodiles..

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 06 Apr 2010 17:47

Early morning....this ruined my day.

RIP to Jawans.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 17:53

ashish raval wrote: Their life is easy because their society, government and armed forces work in tandem in a way that the problem is either tackled or removed before it becomes a demon. India is one country which lets all demons eat, sleep, grow and become strong to an extent that it becomes a uphill task to destroy it. Kargil is a perfect example. A very simple fact. Kill ratio of American soldiers was worse in Vietnam wars while fighting Jungle warfare. Israeli's are fighting in open desert where you can see your enemy from several kilometers away. Key to Jungle warfare is intelligence and survival. Second depends on first. We dont have first so second is impossible to achieve against an enemy who knows every feet of land. Very very bad piece of handling by government. If I were HM, I would surely resign out of disgrace and shame. I would say politicians are indeed like crocodiles..

It is quite easy to blame the government, and they are to blame for a large extent, but you are forgetting the tactical failure in operations here, and they are the failures of the forces and not Government.If they are running in large contigents of 1000's, they are quite juicy targets for Helicopter gunships as well. Do they even have UAV support? Kill ratio of Americans in the Vietnam war was quite phenomenal to say the least.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 06 Apr 2010 18:12

It took 2 hours. Every single news channel is back on Sania-Shoaib. Arey dub maro saalo. These snakes are the ears and eyes of our country? What country is this where a stupid marriage is bigger than massacare of 85 brave jawaans? Aak-thu is less for these. I have tears in my eyes for those who died, but can't do anything other than this. The state of my nation!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Apr 2010 18:33

I had suggested some time back that PC will have to be restrained if he went on too "far". He should not make it personal. If he does so, without craftily involving the power behind the throne publicly in his actions against the Maoists, he will be a sitting duck. The Maoists, like the Jihadis in J&K and Hyderabad, have survived for more than 30 years now. It would not have been possible without some mutual penetration in rashtryia apparatus, political parties and the extremists themselves. Maoists are now part of a spectrum of political tools - in parallel, and perhaps in close coordination with the Jihadis, EJ-ists, organized crime and smugglers, and international agents. If PC goes too far too quickly, he will be preparing himself for "exit".

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Apr 2010 18:37

There is something very very wrong with the way the paramilitary forces are being trained and operated.

Moreover it takes a while to kill 75 personnel, why the hell wasn't backup in the area. why did not the cavalry come in?

Is there a cavalry? or are we simply leaving isolated units in densely wooded areas to fend for themselves?

Killing 75 troops means that the Maoists are now more than capable of company level engagement.

are we still going to say no heavy stuff? no real air surveillance? only light ill trained police forces from out of the area ?

And I wonder how anybody can still keep "inviting" maoists for talks.

75 troops is a lot. a Frickin lot.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Apr 2010 18:42

B-ji,

What would you have PC do? Do a Shivraj Patil?

Its extremely necessary to convey firmness and spine and every intention of staying the long haul to all constituencies - the adivasis, to state and local gubmints, to the forces themselves, to the phoren hands fingering trouble etc in the fight against the maobadis.

I don't regret the expression of firmness and steel from PC. I don;t see where he has made anything 'personal'. Maobadis cannot be accommodated, that's one surefire lesson we all have learned by now. No point waiting for them to spread ever further to new areas now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 18:44

1000 maoists is a exagerration . feeding and moving that lot from all over the place to concentrate at one spot would be tough to hide. though in the jehanabad town attack they had
come in a convoy of trucks perhaps disguised as farm/industrial labour.....

mostly likely about 100 well trained shooters with semi-automatic weapons and perhaps another 100 in reserve to mop up resistance later.

GOI will try to inflate the number to hide its own errors.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Apr 2010 18:56

Singha wrote:1000 maoists is a exagerration . feeding and moving that lot from all over the place to concentrate at one spot would be tough to hide. though in the jehanabad town attack they had
come in a convoy of trucks perhaps disguised as farm/industrial labour.....

mostly likely about 100 well trained shooters with semi-automatic weapons and perhaps another 100 in reserve to mop up resistance later.

GOI will try to inflate the number to hide its own errors.

Of course while 1000 is exaggerated(nice round big number), I think 100 men is far too few. Hard to imagine them inflicting 75 casualties on what is (while not army quality) still decently trained paramilitary troopers. I think upwards of three hundred would be a better estimate unless the Maoists have suffered heavy losses as well.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 18:58

kittoo wrote:It took 2 hours. Every single news channel is back on Sania-Shoaib. Arey dub maro saalo. These snakes are the ears and eyes of our country? What country is this where a stupid marriage is bigger than massacare of 85 brave jawaans? Aak-thu is less for these. I have tears in my eyes for those who died, but can't do anything other than this. The state of my nation!

Edited...

Archan,

Not been a great day. Apologies.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Apr 2010 19:00

X post:
The sequence of events seems to be thus:
1. Two maoists indulge in a fake assault, get injured and lure the CRPF company into the jungle road where 1000+ maoists lay waiting on both sides of the road.

2. When the CRPF company comes into the kill zone, the maoists set off a land mine to take out the lead vehicle, blocking the troops advance.

3. Indiscriminate firing takes place from both sides of the road with the CRPF men trapped in the middle.
Almost the entire company gets wiped out. I am sure there will have been maoist casulties as well, but with them hiding in the woods in vantage points and the CRPF on an unprotected road this was a one way contest.

Reminds one of the Jaffna heliborne assault on an LTTE stronghold by the Indian Army. The troops were dropped in the middle of an ambush with disastrous results.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 19:06

Times now showing the reactions of Pro-Maoist Sympathizers, These people are beyond reproach and I say it with all seriousness, they are nothing more than traitors. India is a soft soft state, a rudderless state.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 06 Apr 2010 19:15

Just saw Praful Budwai saying- 'While 85 jawaans dying is bad and all, you've to see that 30-40 tribals die every week. There will be retaliation of course!'
If I could, I would literally break his neck.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Apr 2010 19:16

Hari Seldon wrote
B-ji,
What would you have PC do? Do a Shivraj Patil?
Its extremely necessary to convey firmness and spine and every intention of staying the long haul to all constituencies - the adivasis, to state and local gubmints, to the forces themselves, to the phoren hands fingering trouble etc in the fight against the maobadis.
I don't regret the expression of firmness and steel from PC. I don;t see where he has made anything 'personal'. Maobadis cannot be accommodated, that's one surefire lesson we all have learned by now. No point waiting for them to spread ever further to new areas now.

I did not criticize PC's spirit. But you can see that only he is making the noises. Where are the political barons who jump so quickly on to the ear-drum-bursting bandwagons on their pet and "only legitimate" issues? Why are we not seeing "leadership' in building up public opinion from those who are supposed to be the future supreme leaders of India?

I see PC as being made the "shikhandi". I find a consistent pattern of extremism flourishing whenever the central Delhite-dynastic-coteries panics that they are loosing control over regional mandarins. This coupled with the very long survival period of the Leftist insurgencey [as the Jihadis] compared to the relatively short survival of the Khalistanis indicates for me a very close correlation with the regime pecrceptions and weaknesses about specific ideologies. A very long survival for such groups also increases the likelihood that both the extremists as well as rashtryia agencies and political parties have penetrated each other.

I think of how POGWI+ISI agents penetrated and used Talebs and in turn most likely the Talebs back-penetrated POGWI+ISI. The Maoists therefore for me could be mere tools with agents at the highest levels in their hierarchy who can coordinate according to covert political instructions.

The need is for the political wing of PC's party to start a public campaign to delegitimize the leftist ideologies. No use mumbling that the "ideology" is good, but these acts are the acts of few misguided individuals - the tactic used to protect Jihad. Both those "faiths" have explicit targets of overthrowing pre-existing states, and the imposition of state as an instrument of "coercion" by one class on another.

The silence and mumbling from those who are supposed to be supreme and sole emperors of India does indicate for me danger for PC. Not person, but his political career, and image.

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 06 Apr 2010 19:17

The sad thing is ,we dont know yet how many more sacrifices are needed to wake up our sleeping babus..Pissed off whole day.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 06 Apr 2010 19:19

The mind boggles at the scale. RIP.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Apr 2010 19:23

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100406/ap_ ... bel_attack

"It's a flawed operation," said K.P.S. Gill, a retired senior police officer involved in several operations in insurgency-hit areas.

"What is the point of a four-day patrol? You have a fatigued force in the heat of Chhattisgarh at this time of the year," he said.

April temperatures in the area often hit 110 degrees Fahrenheit (43 degrees Celsius).

He also called the anti-mine vehicles used by the troops "death traps."

"More men are lost in an anti-mine vehicle than outside it," he said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Apr 2010 19:26

I did not know of the terrible news when I last posted.My sincerest sympathies to the bereaved and affected families and security personnel.

This only shows how incompetently the HM and PM are handling the situ.Sending in "cannon fodder" into the Naxal heartlands where they know the woods like the back of their hands without air surveillance or support...shocking! Naturally they fell into the trap and the Naxals are most probably in raptures thanks to the statements from our political bosses who say that "no Indian army or air force will be used against Naxals..."

PC's statement that "something must've gone wrong.." is another abject example of the utter lack of understanding of security affairs of the country in the current MMS regime,neither internal or external security is assured to the Indian populace.If he has any decency left in him,like Lal Bahadur Shastri,he should resign.This is a total fiasco.A bungling of the highest order and as in the aftermath of 26/11 the then HM bit the dust,so too should PC get his rich deserved reward.

PS: As for the siren of sedition,one female ,A.Roy,where does she now stand on her caring Naxals,a vile ungrateful specimen born in India who hates the nation, who lauded her favourite Naxal species in "retrieving each part of a blasted vehicle to reuse it"! She should be sent to commisserate with the families of the murdered soldiers.A lynching from them is not good enough for her.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Apr 2010 19:28

yeah keep stuffing troops into a single vehicle moving slowly through rough terrain- might as well paint sitting duck on the helmet as well.

this a fricking forest deep in Indian territory , more than 1000 miles from any goddamn international border and we are losing nearly 100 paramilitary troops!

This is war!

how are thousand armed men moving around in an area where operations are taking place without anybody knowing anything!

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Apr 2010 19:35

The Red Corridor may try to secede very soon if this goes on for long. If Maoists have the military capabilities to take out a company of para-military then things are serious indeed. Something will give way-my fear is that India is headed towards its own version of financial crisis but in our case it will be a security crisis. For too long we have been fed opium by a propagandist media, effeminate government and clueless policy makers. This is a national failure of colossal proportions. We have a civil war at hands-much as I hate to say

My sincere condolences to families and organizations of the martyred personnel. Veergati...

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 06 Apr 2010 19:40

munna wrote:The Red Corridor may try to secede very soon if this goes on for long. If Maoists have the military capabilities to take out a company of para-military then things are serious indeed. Something will give way-my fear is that India is headed towards its own version of financial crisis but in our case it will be a security crisis. For too long we have been fed opium by a propagandist media, effeminate government and clueless policy makers. This is a national failure of colossal proportions. We have a civil war at hands-much as I hate to say

My sincere condolences to families and organizations of the martyred personnel. Veergati...

This is what I feel too. Seems worst fears are coming true.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Apr 2010 19:49

Nitin Pai argues that The Naxalites overreached

…and committed a ~~strategic mistake~~ tactical brilliance at Dantewada.

Over the last five years Naxalites have violently expanded ... yet, the violence in any given place and time has been below a certain threshold.
... including efforts by their sympathisers to romanticise their violenc...

This allowed Naxalites to get away with murder. A lot of times. In a lot of places. Literally.

But killing 73 out of 80 (or 120) CRPF and police personnel in a short span of time in a single battle is no longer subliminal violence. In all likelihood the Naxalites have crossed a threshold...
...

There’s a chance that India’s psychological threshold is even higher. But it is more likely that the Naxalites have overreached.

Good read.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 06 Apr 2010 19:52

And yet the village folks still aspire to join CRPF and CISF......from my experience during a recent trip to Orissa.

the ruling elite in Delhi is rejoicing a good life because of these village men and women in uniform, who are willing to sacrifice their lives against all odds. Their anger is suppressed as of now.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Apr 2010 19:54

Kanchan Gupta tweets. Says it like he sees it. TIFWIW.
http://twitter.com/KanchanGupta

Heavy day at work. Some quick comments on Maoist attack.

Maobadis have declared all out war. Will the Indian state continue to bleat and seek approval of left intellectuals to strike back?

Maobadis have exposed Arundhati Ray as a peddler of untruths. Unless her essay was meant to whitewash Maobadi crimes / lull society.

Strangely, media continues to obsess with SIT/Modi as a third of India slides towards civil war. Middle class indifferent to Maobadi terror.

Operation Green Hunt needs to be recalibrated, restrategised. Shock and awe tactics perhaps? You can't fight this war with a lollipop.

Op Green Hunt jawans instructed not to shoot first. Absurd. End result: They are shot first and we have heavy casualties.

Oh you bet a change in 'rules of engagement' is coming. Being trigger happy with as ruthless a foe as the maobadis can't be too bad, hopefully. And should the WKKs protest, some of them can be 'embedded' with the troops on patrol in maobadi ilaakas just for kicks.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Apr 2010 19:54

Philip wrote: PC's statement that "something must've gone wrong.." is another abject example of the utter lack of understanding of security affairs of the country in the current MMS regime,neither internal or external security is assured to the Indian populace.If he has any decency left in him,like Lal Bahadur Shastri,he should resign.This is a total fiasco.A bungling of the highest order and as in the aftermath of 26/11 the then HM bit the dust,so too should PC get his rich deserved reward.

Until PC, casualties of this scale never happened because none of his predecessors were interested in going after the Naxals. If the HROs have something to crib about, there's progress being made. And while the logistical and financial part as well as overall policy is directly dictated by his ministry, I doubt if he's involved in planning or managing local strategy on ground. I understand the buck stops with him, but I'd still rather he continue than someone else who'd pull forces out and let things go back to 'normal'.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Apr 2010 20:04

Atri wrote: Secede and go where? survive how?

Simple answers
(a) Nowhere! They remain there in a permanent state of hostility towards Indian state unless finished at the root.

(b) If they can survive for 30 long years and come back to hit Indian state when its stronger like never before then it tells you something about their survival skills. To tell you the truth I have seen and heard my fair share of stories about insurgencies but make no mistake this event sir is routing of colossal proportions-with no parallel in free India. I used to be sceptical about Maobadis and their capabilities but they have bared fangs and its not a pretty sight. They have very deep roots, deeper than it seems.

PS: Its not the fact that they may try and secede that I worry about. I worry about the costs of recovering the territories back. If this becomes any bigger we can kiss goodbye to all the growth-shrowth that we seem to be chasing-to the detriment of all other things.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 06 Apr 2010 20:21

Why would they secede when their stated goal is to replace the government in Delhi? That'd be tactical brilliance of the Paki kind.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 20:25

vera_k wrote:Why would they secede when their stated goal is to replace the government in Delhi? That'd be tactical brilliance of the Paki kind.

Exactly, The whole of Idea of Communist entities in India, is to change the democratic and status quo of Republic of India into their Communist State of Indian Union.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Apr 2010 20:29

vera_k wrote:Why would they secede when their stated goal is to replace the government in Delhi? That'd be tactical brilliance of the Paki kind.

That is the ultimate goal. An intermediate one is to create a parallel state a la Mao Vs Chiang.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Apr 2010 20:30

Some element of failure in Naxal operations, admits Home Secretary

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 20:32

Gerard wrote:Some element of failure in Naxal operations, admits Home Secretary

Does UAV's, and Reconnaissance come under Airpower? If that too, God save this nation.
Some element of failure, What is Home.Sec smoking, it is complete and total failure, we have lost in the region of 300 Jawans in 3 months. Ostrich?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Apr 2010 20:32

I am extremely depressed, one of the worst mornings i have ever had. How can you lose 75 men in one attack, apparently another rescue party of 150 is out there and that is still not traceable(ndtv). Can someone catch hold of males in that district and search for gun smoke residue on their hands. IMO, there should have been atleast 200. they have now looted the weapons too. Can someone comment on the feasibility of embedding a gps chip with a transmitter in the butt of a gun, out of experience iknow it can be done in a 5cmX5cm area.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Apr 2010 20:34

Come come now,

The maobadis don't have any realistic strategic goals except to destabilize India. Period fullstop.

They and their chinese masters and leftist political over ground workers realize that creating a revolution like in Nepal and in China in the early 20th century is not possible in 21st century India.

The aim seems to be to expand the political base of the left parties, by creating a ground level movement based on fear and violence, much the same that has been achieved in west bengal, and allowed the left parties to come to power and hold on to it for all these decades.

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 06 Apr 2010 20:36

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/20-secur ... -19293.php

We are bothered about Pakistani terrorist camps, when there are camps in our own territories, where ever the commies are there.