India-US News and Discussion

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archan
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by archan »

Jews,Gentiles,Moslems,Gays, EDITED,Liberals, Not so liberals,
As far as India is concerned, He had been better than the ineffectual jerk residing in the white house.
Cool is my middle nam
our Bureaucrats are so useless and dumb
These IITians are proving to be the biggest bunch of traitors we have produced
I made Jack trout shut up
Am I seeing a pattern here? All the above quotes are from chandrabhan, who informs us that cool is his middle name. Now listen chandrabhan, no matter how patriotic you are, and no matter how strongly you feel about certain issues but your language is unacceptable for this forum. You may have shut up Jack Trout, but if you don't correct yourself, the moderators will surely make you shut up on this forum. I am giving you only 1 warning while you should have gotten more for your posts above. If I find your "coolness" spreading further on these forums, be prepared for a vacation from BRF.
Jagan, no I do not believe he used that word without knowing what it implies. He is too smart for that, or at least projects himself to be.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by chandrabhan »

Amber G. wrote:
On Obama winning the piss prize
Reminds me of all the sound byte, anger - right up to brilliance in spelling - produced quite often eg
here
These IITians are proving to be the biggest bunch of traitors we have produced,
As Ex-IItiann thanks for calling me a traitor. .( Of course, as far as I am concerned, such comments say more about the postor than IIT'an)

forewarned is forearmed as far as nobama is concerned
P.S. Who is nobama?

And how trashing IITians etc are even remotely related to US/India news and discussion?

It is one thing to have some reasonable debate here, but should this discussion stoops to the quality of , what I think, Madam Shileen's writeup.
I guess this is all off topic Nobama is Obama. Let's not get into this debate on IITians. They are " brilliant " as you said :D IITians are here due to Bill clinton speech in their forum advising India to compromise on Kashmir and none of them spoke up.

I am married to one IITian for many years and there is nothing Personal. Was there not even one soul who could simply ask him to take care of monica while Hillary is away? Keeping quiet on such things are classed as compromise for purely personal gains, in this case dollars and residency in Khanate
I heard at present, hundreds of thousands of India's young and brightest want to apply for IIT ... So why so many just want to be biggest bunch of traitors.?..
IITians have rarely done anything for India. Most of the engineers building rockets, Missiles or things that are contributing to improve bharat vashi's lives are from so called Tier ii & iii colleges. These same IITians go to do a post grad by taking loans of $120-130K used to pay measly Rs7000 till 1997 per year(or semester). The cost of training one" brilliant" mind at IIT is around Rs67lacs and that poor Ramdin( who foots the bill) gets nothing from IItians. Most of them adorn the halls of Harvard/Yale/ MIT

Mods,
It's completely unfair. Some of my friend is telling me , " Chill dude " and I said those words regarding cool. On our MEA mandarins, I had not used those words and I don't know where you have picked them from and why are you attributing them to me?
The first Line " Jews..... " may be something that you can point out but it was purely to address the adherents of these religions who criticised Bush Jr.
I simply can't understand why are you upset on me asking Jack trout to lay off India & Kashmir? May have been your prof I guess. Regarding IITians in US, I reserve my comments being married to one for long

This warning is completely unfair at best.
Last edited by chandrabhan on 15 Oct 2009 07:35, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by nithish »

I was reading an article on Intellibriefs about Obama and India, when I saw this:
So far as India is concerned Obama has continued to behave as a non-proliferation Ayatollah :shock: :lol: neglecting outstanding self-imposed restraints and non-proliferation roles of all Indian Governments.
It's written by Om Gupta, an IFS man
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Some, but not all here, realize this:
http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2009/10 ... nal-peace/
You never, ever get a true dissident from a prominent Western country winning the award, despite the obvious appropriateness such a choice would represent. Our Western society quite openly embraces war as a means of solving problems and for quite some time now has fashioned its entire social and economic structure around the preparation for war.....That’s how this thing works. We ebb toward war most of the time. But sometimes, out of necessity, or when we run out of bullets, we ebb the other way. And it’s then that we give ourselves awards for our peace-loving behavior.....The unifying thread for all these prizewinners is that they were all important political figures who at one time or another embraced violence as a just and appropriate policy, and got the peace crown once the political weather changed and it was time to put the tanks back in the garage.......But it’s hard not to notice that those onetime war-favoring pols are the Westerners who win these awards, when there is still a significant minority of people living right here among us who believe that nonviolence can work as a permanent policy, and who have consistently rejected and opposed the obvious militaristic values of the society we actually happen to live in.

Those people win the Nobel Prize when they live in “other” countries, when they’re penniless priests in Timor or Soweto or activists in Guatemala. But when they’re Americans or Western Europeans or Japanese who think we should reduce military spending or defund catastrophic weapons programs, no dice, because those people don’t represent “us” — us being a society that doesn’t seriously think about disarming.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Why waste time on a committee of fools and this award-the only thing amiss is the name-call it the harmless pandering to the western world view award.
I don't think anybody cleverer than an American newspaper reader thinks of it as serious prize.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

chandrabhan wrote: IITians have rarely done anything for India. Most of the engineers building rockets, Missiles or things that are contributing to improve bharat vashi's lives are from so called Tier ii & iii colleges. .
Ummm those from Khargapur do buck the trend. A lot of hi tech (and I dont mean only ITvity etc) companies have been seeded and matured by them. Plus a lot in senior management in Tatas etc

They are the quite low profile IITians, a lot of those from Kanpur end up in the Civil services or used to.

Madras and Powai ones are the worst (in terms of brain drain centers) -- even there some brave souls buck the trend (and the trend is now changing anyway)

So though what you say is true, I should point out that the brush is a little broad.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Obama is the new Messiah!Though the Jews and (Christian) Gentiles might disagree upon that.He however is the 21st century's "Man for all Seasons" and will celebrate any native festival,speak in any language,fight in any country...you get the picture!

The Nobel Peace Prize winner will shortly send another 40,000 troops to fight for "peace" in Afghanistan.In fact he is rapidly emulating his predecessor's philosophy that to create Peace in America,one must wage War elsewhere.The next international award that the man of peace,the Messiah will receive is the George Orwell "1984" medal award for Newspeak.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by archan »

Alright guys, Nobel prize or IITan bashing has little to do with the topic of this thread which is Indo-US News and Discussion. I wonder what is the big deal about Nobel prize - it is people that make a big deal of such "prizes". Why even care?
So any more posts on Nobel prize, democrats vs. republicans, and the traitorishness of IITans will only invite post deletions and warnings/bans.

Indo-US news and discussions only please.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

IMO< the more Sri Obama gets embroiled in domestic issues, the less attn he will be able to spend abroad, esp to south asia. And that somehow seems to be a good thing from the Dilli POV.

With Sri Obama in the saddle in DC, no news is good news, IMO.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Hari Seldon wrote:IMO< the more Sri Obama gets embroiled in domestic issues, the less attn he will be able to spend abroad, esp to south asia. And that somehow seems to be a good thing from the Dilli POV.
With Sri Obama in the saddle in DC, no news is good news, IMO.
This understanding needs to be corrected. Dealing with external world is "out of bounds" for Obama. He is meant to be a postor boy to be "used" by the likes of Clintons. His "spending" time on external issues does not arise. His job is cut out, plain and clear in that regard: taking orders and doing as "they" say.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Barack Obama celebrates Diwali in White House-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsJUy_ZMYuY
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

psyops to enthuse a certain section of NRIs who are taken in by such 'gestures'
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

Singha wrote:psyops to enthuse a certain section of NRIs who are taken in by such 'gestures'
:lol: in khanate *everything* is psyops. 8)
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by archan »

Again guys, Indo US News and Discussion only!
Conspiracy theories should be kept to your living room or other forums.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by gandharva »

Posting in full. :eek:
A tribute to Obama, a disciple of Gandhi

V. R. KRISHNA IYER

http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article34090.ece

I salute you, Barack Obama, for winning the Nobel Prize for Peace. By winning it you have made the White House an eighth world wonder of peace and a point of pilgrimage for humanity longing for a new century of lasting tranquility on earth.

Our human universe is a divine creation, the celestial manifestation of happy habitation for all mankind. But by the accumulation of power and aggravation of development through science and technology, and intoxicated with power, man has converted the good earth into a vast crematorium of humanity, where progress spells carnage and human rights are alien to the new generation.

If each one of us be the abode of God, it is to preserve for the maker’s project a dynamic philosophy of jubilation as against widespread destruction. The biggest power of nuclear disaster must undergo transformation by a magic of work, wealth and happiness. Such a metamorphosis is possible only if a million Mahatma Gandhis, a trillion revolutionary Jesus Christs and countless Vivekanandas and Obamas consecrate this planet. And now the biggest power on earth has produced in a decadent hemisphere and in a white country of white power an enigma in the shape of Mr. Obama.

Mr. Obama, you are no longer only an American but a world wonder with a new vision and promise of peace on earth. You are destined to convert great America into an inspiration for peace everywhere, even beyond the earth and the moon. A celestial power has whispered into the White House what Mahatma Gandhi would have deserved.

Mr. Obama, as an Indian at the age of 95 who is committed to cosmic peace, I plead with providence to give you the creative verve to be the divine engineer to save our morally declining planet controlled by the whites into a society free from race, colour, caste, communalism and corruption — so that all living creatures may feel a new biosphere where God is no myth but a live force that is materialist at the base and appareled in a moral structure. You be the prince and make the United States a land where God trod. You are great and often misunderstood, but you are a beam of light and harkened the dawn of an Advaita world. There may be critics, but truth is God and you will win at last.

Emerson wrote: “Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.”

Your noble incarnation has a purpose — a passion for execution of the termination of terrorism, not by war or arms but by farewell to blood and iron.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Obama seeks light and knowledge from Diwali
WASHINGTON: In an expansive gesture to Indians worldwide as much as to showcase his – and America’s -- multi-cultural affections, US President
Barack Obama on Wednesday lit a ceremonial Diwali lamp at the White House to ''symbolize victory of light over darkness.'' ( Watch Video )
....
Although it was the Bush White House that began celebrating Diwali, the Indian festival of lights, in 2003, Obama became the first President to personally grace the ceremony -- a brief affair that began with a rather incongruous performance by the well-regarded Hindi a-capella group Penn Masala, and ended with a Sanskrit invocation by a priest from the local Siva-Vishnu temple.
<snip>
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Gandhi, a man of all times and places: US Congress
A resolution recognising the contribution made by Mahatma Gandhi through non-violence to promote world peace was unanimously passed on Thursday by the US House of Representatives, with American lawmakers describing him as a "man of all times and places"
Times have changed... Remember not that many years ago Paki's got in a major taqleef when Chicago wanted to name a street in honor of Gandhi - (and they had to bow to the pressure and do equal equal to name part of the road after Jinnah)
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

US-India relationship key to global order and prosperity: Burn
New Delhi, Oct 15 (IANS) Visiting American diplomat William Burns, who is on a two-day trip to India in preparation for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s journey to the US, said Thursday that relations between India and US were key drivers for prosperity and stability in this century
....
Burns said that the “main purpose” of his visit was to prepare for the prime minister’s November trip to United States, which will be the first state visit [of] President Barack Obama’s administration.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

IITians have rarely done anything for India.

Please don't talk this way. Capt Shesha Sayee was my good friend and the only son of his parents from AP, a classmate of mine 1st year IIT. He died doing the bravest thing you can imagine in Kashmir in a major ambush and under massive fire. Shaurya Chakra and recommended for the MVC. Next, VK Jain, died 1971 with Khukri sinking. This brilliant Engineer decided to go down when he could have possibly saved himself and was amongst the last to be seen voluntarily going down to a watery grave. There's a bravely medal in the IN on Jain. These are off the cuff direct linkages between war and IIT grads i am giving out here. Admiral Badhwar an IIT grad again is responsible for some of the best stealth warships coming out in the IN today. He takes great pride and is a dedicated naval Officer to the core. I can name you more..but let it suffice, IITians like all of us also feel as deeply for the country and can give and dedicate their lives to this nation.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Amber,

Give it a break. Who gives a rat's ass about the India sweet talk from POTUS, US Congress and DoS? Obama signed off on the $7.5 billion TSP aid package today and the actions about CRE are now in the forefront of this administration's agenda. Bad times ahead for India. You need to quit posting US propaganda printed in Indian newspapers.

A Paki attack in India is eminent and we're going to see more arm twisting than before.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

There is no whining and bashing from my side of the US and the O-Team for the sake of having a good time.When the US deserves praise,it gets it,as I have praised Bush Sr. for his masterful handling of GW1 and the eviction of Saddam from Kuwait,which had the world's approval and UN sanction.His son,Dubya,took his eye off Afghanistan by his and Cheney's greed and adventurism in Iraq and allowed Al Q and the Taliban to regroup and become the force they are today.Much of this was also possible only because the US has been mollycoddling Pakistan and making dubious deals with even more dubious and despicable military rulers like that bandicoot,Gen.Mushar-rat.The Taliban was born in Pakistan and has been nurtured,trained and directed by the ISI and the Paki military against India and Afghanistan.

Despite all this being common knowledge,we had yesterday a grand ceremony in the US where 18 new F-16s for Pakistan were unveiled to the media .Pakistan's huge largessse in aid was also signed ,billions each year which it will put to good use for devilish actions against India,as Gen.Musharrat said he did all along with his bonanza of US aid. What a wonderful foreign policy and the US has the audacity,the effrontery and the temerity to call itself India's "friend"! I puke on such "friendship".India does not need such bullcrap from the White House.

Back to Afghanistan,The US just unsuccessfully tried to subvert democracy in the country in the recent election by working against Karzai,who wants the US to wind down its ops and leave,massively supporting his opponent and would be US puppet AA instead.In its UCAV attacks,it makes no distinction between innocent Afghan villagers and the Taliban and simply bomb aby large concentration of people it finds on its UCAV sensors.The US wants India,which is a neighbour of Afghanistan to have NO role in that country,preferring to hand over the nation to Paki agents instead! Neither does it want Afghanistan's northern neighbours and Russia to have any say in resolving the Afghan crisis,nations legitimately worried about the rapid spread of radical Islam from Pakistan finding its way into their countries through Afghanistan,which was the US/CIA's plan during the Cold War,when these nations were part of the Soviet Union.

The US will slink away one day with its tail between its legs just as it did in Vietnam,It is repeating the very same mistakes it made there.More grunts on the ground to be sent will become cannon fodder.Instead of supporting to the hilt the Afghan army and paramilitary forces,who really need the billions in aid,it is asininely supporting the Paki army who are the instigators and godfathers of the Taliban.The US and the Taliban truly deserve each other.May they slaughter each other in the thousandfolds.However,the solution is so evident and apparent.The US must simply STOP supplying Pakistan's military with military aid,ban sales of all eqpt. to it,and curtail even economic aid which in any case is totally misused.Until Pakistan is brought down to its knees economically and militarily and forced to curtail its nuclear ambitions,which is cancerous to the entire globe,the problem of Afghanistan and Pakistan will continue to plague the world and the people of the subcontinent.US aid to Pakistan is the saline drip and blood transfusions which is keeping the monster of Paki terrorism ,the scourge of the globe, alive,kicking and killing.By supporting this monstrous entity,the US is also culpable and guilty of fomenting and nurturing international Islamist terrorism.With such a "friend" like Uncle Sam,does India really need any enemies?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by chandrabhan »

India- Us had been a very strange relationship. As general Rodrigues coined the term, " Natural partners" ,Later on used by Vajpayeeji to describe this relationship. We have so much in common and the fact is that we owe few Good words for America for the role they played in our Independence. The brits fooled them regarding their hypothesis on partition.

As far as the current situation goes, I do believe that US presence in our neighborhood is beneficial( Short term). They are doing the fighting while we should build our capacities, Military as well as economic quietly. I support Obama in case he adds more troops on ground as this will lead to expenses, some stability and rise in the number of body bags ( More ISAF men mean more targets to shoot) . Body bag aversion will create ruckus back home and America will quit this land and stay within the borders for a few decades. This afghan war, they can only loose. One can defeat armies but can't defeat race. It is nothing to do with afghan bravery or so but this whole pashtoon bravery myth part true and part created( ISI/CIA/UKSTAN) is already on the minds of Americans.
Once America leaves, we need to bargain and bargain hard to relieve them. I am sure Americans know of Pakistani duplicity regarding Taliban etc, We need to step in, land troopers( Sikhs, manning the northern parts) to support the Afghan forces manning the south. America must wear down here. It suits us and in the long run Only India& Iran can stablise this region. I don't see the time far away - May be year or two. We must be ready for stablise and let NATO/US secure the airways and do the drone rehearsal in NWFP/ Lawhore/ Quetta/ to chase the Qaida.
I pray every day that OBama should stay here :twisted:
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Manny »

Karan Dixit
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Karan Dixit »

And this is the guy who said, he would not hesitate attacking Pakistan if push came to shove. Was he talking out his a$$ during the election?
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

the messiah will tell everyone what they want to hear.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Manny »

If anyone wants to understand the Obama phenomena, you need to rent and watch the movie "Being There". Peter Sellers movie. Must watch in this Obama decade.

:D
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Good one!!! :D
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

Apparently a chartered Boeing 767 carrying 205 US Marines.:

US plane forced to land in Mumbai for airspace violation
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by D Roy »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUTNhIN_YM

This US Army video from Yudh Abhyas,
gives me the distinct feeling that the US Army is well on its way toward becoming "civilianised". If I may use the term. The young kids in their military need internet connectivity, they need packaged meals, they find Indian roads dicey etc etc. They "need" too many accoutrements to actually fight. You also get the feeling that the tourist aspect is a very part of overseas deployment.

The buffed up bodies seem to suggest they spend more time in the gym rather than on the range. Yes I know there's a lot of debate on skinny Indian jawan vs buffed up yamriki soldier, but from all the other videos one can clearly makeout that Indian soldiers are much more agile and have greater staying power.Of course the exercise is in India with the hot climate and the "overdressed" americans but the fact is no war's going on in Hawaii either.

The western democracies are bells and whistles economies and seem to have transformed their military into one as well.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by harbans »

Some more videos on the training:

[youtube]w2tMn9jauWk&NR=1[/youtube]

[youtube]nsTOx_IBheU&NR=1[/youtube]
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

in recent memory, dont think anyone has done to this to the QaKhan. the plane has been
cleared to depart tomorrow.

PTI:


STAFF WRITER 21:13 HRS IST

Mumbai, Oct 18 (PTI) Security has been beefed up in and around a five-star hotel in the western suburbs where over 200 passengers of the US aircraft checked in after their plane was ordered to land at the airport here today, police said.

A Bangkok-bound chartered US plane in which American marines were among the 205 passengers was ordered by authorities to land at Mumbai airport for flying over Indian airspace without getting the mandatory military clearance.

"Necessary security measures have been taken to ensure the safety of all the passengers," Deputy Police Commissioner Brijesh Singh said.

However, he refused to disclose the name of the hotel due to security reasons.

Required number of policemen have been deployed in and around the area, police said, adding bomb detection and disposal squads have also been put into service.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Unkil Sam keeps doing these zabardasti ka naataks to test/probe the air defence and other preparedness of other countries.

Should vigilance be found wanting, they will prolly then sneak in their arms shipments etc along this route too, should occasion/need/emergency arise.

Good that unkil BS was not bought on this occasion. Shudder to think on how many others our babu lethargy might have let them pass...
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

TOI - qakhan activating its people for another major sellout. I am glad there are still some
patriots around in the IAS who probably leaked this letter to shut him up.

Jairam for major shift at climate talks
Nitin Sethi, TNN 19 October 2009, 12:18am IST

NEW DELHI: India seems to have begun to shuffle its feet in the climate change negotiations.

Environment minister Jairam Ramesh, in a
confidential letter to the PM, has suggested that India junk the Kyoto Protocol, delink itself from G77 -- the 131-member bloc of developing nations -- and take on greenhouse gas emission reduction commitments under a new deal without any counter guarantee of finances and technology.


This proposal comes just after he wrote to the PM suggesting India permit strict external scrutiny -- just as is done under IMF and WTO -- of the mitigation measures it takes at its own cost.


If accepted by the government, the minister's proposal will radically shift India's stand away from its position on climate negotiations that governments of all political hues have backed since 1990 and which was defended robustly as recently as at the UN talks in Bangkok earlier this month.

The minister has justified the proposed shift of gears by repeating his argument that India need not be seen as a deal-breaker and should try to curb emissions in its own interest. He has also pointed to the advantages -- a permanent seat on the Security Council, for instance -- that it can hope to reap with a changed stance.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

In his October 13 letter to the PM, Ramesh argues for a deviation from the Kyoto Protocol under which only the developed countries -- listed in Annexure 1 -- are required to take obligations for emission cuts, saying that it would also help in a better alignment with the US. :wink: "We must welcome initiatives to bring the US into the mainstream, if need be through a special mechanism, without diluting basic Annex 1/non-Annex distinctions. If the Australian Proposal of a schedule maintains this basic distinction and nature of differential obligations we should have no great theological objections."

When approached for his comments, the union minister responded on phone, "I am surprised that a privileged communication between me and the Prime Minister has found its way into the public domain. I am shocked. And whatever I had to say I have said to the PM." He refused to speak further. :twisted:

In his letter, Ramesh emphasizes his concern about India being seen as a bugbear for the developed countries in the climate negotiations. "India must listen more and speak less in negotiations" as its stance is "disfavoured by the developed countries, small island states and vulnerable countries. It takes away from India's aspirations for permanent membership of the Security Council."

The minister has also suggested diluting India's strong stance -- enshrined in the UN Framework Convention on Climate Convention (UNFCCC) -- on demanding compensation from the industrialized countries in terms of funds and technology for having caused the climate change problem to begin with. He writes, "The position we take on international mitigation commitments only if supported by finance and technology needs to be nuanced simply because we need to mitigate in self-interest."

Ramesh had previously suggested to the PM in a personal letter that India allow IMF and WTO-style review and `surveillance' of even those emission control steps that it takes under its own legislation and at its cost.

Besides their radical import, his proposals are significant because they come just a week after India vigorously stuck to its known negotiating guns at the Bangkok round of negotiations. The UN talks in the Thai capital saw India leading the attack by G77 and China on the Australian Proposal which the environment minister now favours in his letter to the PM.

India along with other countries said that the industrialised countries by introducing the US and EU-backed Australian Proposal were attempting to "kill" the Kyoto Protocol, and alter the character of the UN Framework Convention. The Indian delegates said that the Australian Proposal, asking for a single legal instrument, would "unilaterally impose new commitments and burdens on developing countries and undermine the exiting convention".

But now Ramesh has said India should "not stick with G77 but be embedded in G20. We should be pragmatic and constructive, not argumentative and polemical." Interestingly, India had recently fought off immense pressure at the G20 talks to dilute its stand and give up its rights to financial compensation.

An internal document of the government cleared by the environment minister, drawing the "red lines" for the Bangkok negotiations clearly states that India will not allow commitments of the rich countries to be listed in a single instrument along with the `actions' that India undertakes. In short, it said that the emission-cut obligations of the rich countries under the Kyoto Protocol should not be lumped with whatever the developing countries agree to do voluntarily -- something that the Australian Proposal seeks to do away with.

The brief for Bangkok, which is with TOI, had said that the continuation of the Kyoto Protocol along with deep and ambitious cuts of the rich nations is of critical importance and non-negotiable. It also told the negotiators -- again contrary to what Ramesh suggests to the PM -- that they shall not agree to any international review of its unilateral and unsupported domestic action under any agreement.

The UN Framework Convention and the Kyoto Protocol distinguishes between the industrialized countries that are historically to blame for the accumulated greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The Protocol, to which most countries, with the exception of US, are party, imposes strong emission reduction targets, obligations and non-compliance penalties on only the rich nations. It also follows the "polluters pay" principle where developing countries like India have no obligation to cut down emissions and must be compensated fully for any actions it might undertake voluntarily to reduce emissions.

The Australian Proposal runs contrary to the existing Kyoto Protocol and has been strongly backed by the US. Even EU has come around to back it. It demands that all the countries, including India, be put on merely one list and that all countries, with the exception of the least developed, take on commitments of same nature though of various degrees without any contingent guarantee of technology or finance in return.

In fact, another proposal backed by US demands that India instead contribute money to climate change actions for the rest of the world. The EU does not go that far, but has said that India should reduce its emissions substantially below `business as usual' at mostly its own cost.

In his letter to the PM, the environment minister has said India will suffer no harm if the Australian Proposal does not dilute the distinction between Annex 1 countries and others, and recognises difference in obligations. Significantly, the Australian Proposal has no such provisions.

The proposal, which the US has lobbied India in bilateral forums and in multilateral meets to accept, asks all countries regardless of existing status, to take obligations. In its present form, when read with other proposals, it seeks to cap India's emissions by 2020 and force further reductions later on. A cap on emissions automatically converts into a cap of how much energy India can use.

The US has demanded that each country undertake a domestic legislation -- something that Ramesh too has now backed -- and put that as part of its obligations under the Australian Proposal. The US is keen to do so as it is not a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol and does not want to adhere to a strict multilateral regime that imposes clear penalties and targets to be achieved. It's been demanding that India, China, South Africa and Brazil also take on similar obligations before it joins any new international compact.

In Bangkok, the consternation of the Indian negotiators, the chief US negotiator had openly demanded the delegation relent from its stance, as the Indian environment minister had shown more flexibility in meetings during his US tour.


Observers feel that Indian environment minister's proposals would sit well with the US position despite the difference in energy consumption levels of the two countries.

India, at present emits only 1.2 tonnes per capita of greenhouse gas emissions, as compared to 20 tonnes by the US. Acquiescence in any regime that does not differentiate between the super polluters like the US, on the one hand, and varying levels of developing countries on the other, would, lock the country into an arrangement where its growth options would be restricted.

The suggestion by the minister comes contrary to the internal position that the government had taken as recently as July while assessing how badly uncompensated mitigation would impact India's economy.

In a note circulated within the government and to select Members of Parliament, it had said that mitigation action (as the Australia Proposal suggests) would lead to rise in the price of power and a drop in the production, impact the expansion of railways and adversely hit the prices of fertilizers in years to come. It would increase the cost of all goods, especially food items; the government assessed that it would increase unemployment especially in the rural agricultural sector. It had also warned that even if the country were to undertake such actions, it would have no impact on the costs of climate change adaptation that India would have to bear.

Interestingly, Ramesh's concern about India being seen as the leader of G77 comes when India is hosting a meeting of different countries on October 22-23 to build consensus among the countries on what demands should be made at the UN negotiations on technology. On October 21, India is also holding a dialogue with China and signing an MoU on climate change.

The PM is also slated to visit the US next month where climate change is expected to be a key issue for discussion. The minister in his letter has suggested that just like he has signed MoUs with other countries, "India should sign an agreement on climate change cooperation (during the PM's visit to US) and show willingness to engage."
Bade
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Bade »

Isn't there a new climate science institute being setup in B'lore ? I caught some glimpses of Madhavan Nair and Jairam Ramesh declaring the new institute to be approved very soon by the government.

This means along with the previous leak from the PMO, about the intentions of India to set the agenda of the Climate talks and research with more Indian(ISRO) involvement and guidance to navigate the murky waters to separate the science from the politics. Allowing others to set the agenda does not help, so this is better than the status quo.

This may also explain a toning down of the rhetoric coming from India. If one believes all this climate and green initiative is just another Y2K type fad, then we better get a part of the cake too rather than remain uninvited to the party.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by arun »

Singha wrote:TOI - qakhan activating its people for another major sellout. I am glad there are still some patriots around in the IAS who probably leaked this letter to shut him up.
Jairam for major shift at climate talks

Nitin Sethi, TNN 19 October 2009, 12:18am IST

NEW DELHI: India seems to have begun to shuffle its feet in the climate change negotiations.

Environment minister Jairam Ramesh, in a confidential letter to the PM, has suggested that India junk the Kyoto Protocol, delink itself from G77 -- the 131-member bloc of developing nations -- and take on greenhouse gas emission reduction commitments under a new deal without any counter guarantee of finances and technology........................

The PM is also slated to visit the US next month where climate change is expected to be a key issue for discussion. The minister in his letter has suggested that just like he has signed MoUs with other countries, "India should sign an agreement on climate change cooperation (during the PM's visit to US) and show willingness to engage."
Kudo’s indeed to whichever babu leaked this.

With an established track record of going wobbly at the knees such as the sell out at Sharm el Sheikh, the Congress party led UPA Government will need to be carefully watched. The temptation of a sellout in response to the flattery of the Obama administration bestowing the status of the first “State visit” the US could likely prove irresistible for our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh.
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

^^^ MMS' dinner in Umreeka could be bahut mehenga for the poor SDREs.
Chinmayanand
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Chinmayanand »

I wonder how many millions of greenbacks went into our honourable Minister's bank account which caused him to have a change of heart and opinion :|
svinayak
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

arun wrote: TOI - qakhan activating its people for another major sellout. I am glad there are still some patriots around in the IAS who probably leaked this letter to shut him up.

Jairam for major shift at climate talks

With an established track record of going wobbly at the knees such as the sell out at Sharm el Sheikh, the Congress party led UPA Government will need to be carefully watched. The temptation of a sellout in response to the flattery of the Obama administration bestowing the status of the first “State visit” the US could likely prove irresistible for our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh.
The people voted for this govt is it not. They voted so that the country can be a sellout. What is the need for watch
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Re: India-US News and Discussion

Post by Katare »

People are quick to call others traitors/corrupt while it's debatable how qualified they are to judge a complex issue like climate change based on a leaked letter. For talks to conclude and to reach some kind of deal both parties would have to move from there stated positions. Do not forget when we made concessions on WTO and before that on GATT to conclude the treaty it was called a sell out by Indian politicians, return of colonization and what not.

I have no reason to believe that Jairam or MMS are any less patriotic than anyone of us Rakshaks.
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