Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Raja Bose]

Rahul Mehta, grow up. Its a lost argument.

Asking him to grow up, in itself is a lost argument.

Pro-EVM guys need to take a deep breath. If EC's credibility is lost, there will lots of interested parties to exploit that.

At least for me personally the question is not being pro- or anti-EVM. The question is making sure that the EVMs are accepted or discarded for the right reasons, and NOT based on some fanciful theories of the demented.

So, it doesn't matter if Rahul Mehta is posting crap or not. Rahul Mehta's credibility does not matter to me, but EC's does. So, EC better demonstrate that every vote polled can be audited.

His credibility may not matter to you since you are educated enough to know the difference between fact and what he claims as "fact". Unfortunately in our country most of the commons (so beloved to RM) may not be able to make that distinction because the issues being debated are highly technical and the validity (or not) of an allegation depends on minute details. So essentially someone like RM who goes public with their allegations and use some mumbo-jumbo to claim it as a fact will be hoodwinking the commons, playing with their fears and try to remove a system which proves to be much more secure than the old ballot system they so successfully have already subverted.

[Raja Bose]

So if decrypting logic is simple, then a small amount of microcode (hard wired circuit) will be sufficient to decrypt it and execute it. This needs co-operation from ASIC designer in Hitachi as he has to put some microcode not in the original design. But given that Hitachi CEO will agree for a price, co-operation from ASIC designer in Hitachi is guaranteed.

Now how much change in microcode can be detected?

Or, what is the LEAST change in microcode that would go undetected? If the decrypting logic can be implemented in the "least change that will go undetected", then there is an undetectable way of putting a tempered code.

So back to Dileep, Raja Bose etc. Pls show us how microcode (i.e. hardwired circuit) can be read and ensured that there additional function added?

RM, there is no lower-bound threshold of change in hardware circuitry (unless you are subverting atoms and the spins of the electrons - you might want to look into this), below which you cannot detect a change. Microcode is simply hardware circuitry and can be easily read through visual magnification.

[Rahul Mehta]

If you see the EC press realease, they are randomizing the EVMs that go from CEC warehouse to district warehouses. They are again doing the randomization from district warehouses to constituencies. How will INC benefit unless all the EVMs are with "rigged code".?

Do you think the randomization code is hacked? Does the parties like BJP, TDP etc. are not capable to suspect this aspect?

There is no need to hack randomization code. I have explained details in http://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf .

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The EC is claiming that 100 EVMs that are picked randomly are chosen for this excercise. I guess you are questioning the validity of the randomness. Why did all the folks that attended this session did not question the randomness.
1) Are they dumb?
2) In the last minute - all BJP memebers and other anti-EVM members who attended this meet got purchased by EC and and CIA?

I guess they may have talked about the EVMs that are being given for tests to the attendees are validly random ones.

EC claimed EVMs are were selected at random. Why would they bother doing that? If EC and BEL chiefs have rigged EVMs, then why should they give randomly selected EVMs? Also, the EVMs that were used in LS are now in Districts and cannot be touched without court order for 1 year.

And if I were to write rigged code, I would add votes to favorite candidate ONLY if nVotes > 400 and time EVM is more than 7 hours. So no mock poll would catch it. And I would program EVM so that it would do the rigging only once its life and then become honest. So even the rigged EVM will now act like honest ones.

BJP is not serious about removing EVMs. If they were serious, they can just threaten to appoint 65 candidates in every seat and that would force EC to use paper ballots. Forget putting 65 candidates, most grassroots in BJP/RSS I meet are NOT even aware that EVMs can be bypassed merely by putting 65 candidates.

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SRoy:As long as there is a trojan in the EVM code that could be activated by particular key sequence/combination, the job is done. The trojan just needs to be capable of dynamically logging all keystrokes to just one counter. And of course, a deactivation key sequence/combination at the end of the day of poll is assumed.

SRoy,

There is NO need to punch in activation key. I have explained how Congress can manipulate 100000 EVMs in a way that it would favor Congress in more than 90% cases. I have explained it in htpp://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf .

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Dileep: And how are you going to adjust the number of candidates without the help from the RO? You are ignoring a lot many number of people in the chain. That doesn't fly.

I dont need to bribe even one RO. I need to ensure that my guys are the last 4 guys in the queue in the DC's room. And that is not difficult at all, as no one is suspecting and no one minds if you request DC or other guy to take you case 1 minute later. So lets say count is 19 and you want it to be 17. Out of A, B, C and D, who are LAST 4 in the queue, ask A and B to withdraw.

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Employees in BEL will need authorization to test the chip. So there may be 100 persons in BEL who are not part of this conspiracy, but they will not have authorization to even touch the chip. Only 2-3 guys would be authorized to test the chip. So if Hitachi has put rigged code in chip, only 2-3 guys in BEL have to be managed.

.

[Muppalla]

Fair and balanced. We have to cover everything on this thread.

Expert: EC silent on EVM tampering

BHUBANESWAR: Election watch group functionary V V Rao, who is now on a countrywide tour making public demonstration to prove that EVMs used in elections could be tampered with easily to the advantage of interested parties and candidates, on Monday accused the Election Commission of India of showing not much interest for transparency in the existing voting system.

Rao's reaction came after failing to get ECI's response for a demonstration of the EVM before it. "We requested the ECI to invite us for a live demonstration at its office and sent reminders as well. We waited in New Delhi several days. But no call came", Rao, who recently conducted a mock public voting here to prove the danger of EVMs, said in a release.

The IT expert said the ECI in a communication dated August 8 has stated that it had invited us but we did not turn up for doing the demonstration. "It is blatant lie. The ECI did not call us, but has issued a statement to the contrary. It is a completely false statement", he said.

Rao said he along with two others, Arun and Vasavya, had moved the apex court on the issue which advised them to approach the ECI. "It was at the Supreme Court's order we had gone to the ECI, but the latter seems trying to sweep the matter under the carpet. It is saying one thing within the four walls of its office, but making a different statement in public", Rao said over phone from Chennai where he made a similar demonstration before people from different strata of society, including lawyers, retired bureaucrats and politicians. "Our apprehensions mentioned before the Supreme Court about the ignorance of the ECI towards any concerns on the EVMs or the entire process involved in the elections using EVMs has come true. This clearly shows the intentions of ECI not to listen to the genuine concerns on the vulnerabilities in the EVMs. Such a stand not only violates the order of Supreme Court but also avoid questions which are extremely relevant and important for free and fair elections which can alone strengthen the democracy", Rao remarked.

He demanded the ECI to withdraw its statement forthwith and said they would soon approach it again on the same issue. "For the greater interest of democracy in India and creating ground for fair elections we will approach the ECI again. If the ECI does not accept our demand we will have no option but to move the Supreme Court", he pointed out. Rao said a 'Forum for promoting verifiability, transparency and accountability in Indian elections' (VeTA-India) had since been constituted to carry forward the nationwide campaign on the election issue, including the liability of EVMs. "More than 15 noted personalities, including retired bureaucrats and technocrats, have given their consent to join this mission", he said.

[Sanku]

I understand the thrust of your post. We have to take out RM and similar types from the equation otherwise discussion will be very narrow.

Unfortunately as you can see, short of banishing RM from the auspices, there is very little hope for such a discussion (or a mass ignore RM movement). Even finding a post you want to read in the replies and counter replies is nearly impossible.

[Raja Bose]

^^^^ Ban RM? Are you kidding me?! He is just using his right to free speech....and most importantly pushing our post counts towards that BRF Oldie status

[Raja Bose]

Employees in BEL will need authorization to test the chip. So there may be 100 persons in BEL who are not part of this conspiracy, but they will not have authorization to even touch the chip. Only 2-3 guys would be authorized to test the chip. So if Hitachi has put rigged code in chip, only 2-3 guys in BEL have to be managed.

Any proof that only 2-3 guys will be authorized? This is not some small-scale startup company, you know...what happens if all these 2-3 guys are not at work (on vacation, sick, wife left him etc.) - all testing stops? The whole testing procedure will be a defined process - Just like any of the other processes in industry, it will not depend on the availability of 2-3 specific guys.

[Pranav]

So far there is no remotely possible process to rig EVMs which does not involve manpower on the scale of something like 1 person per polling machine.

And not a wind of that process? This is not the India I know and love so well.

Here is a variant of the keypad activation attack: Activate the trojan about 12 hours before polling begins, using the internal clock. The mis-counting can be programmed to begin only after polling begins, and end before polling ends. That way, all machines can be activated together, before they are transported to the polling booths. The machine will behave normally during any "mock polling" tests.

[Rahul Mehta]

1. RM's credibility may not matter to you since you are educated enough to know the difference between fact and what he claims as "fact".

2. Unfortunately in our country most of the commons (so beloved to RM) may not be able to make that distinction because the issues being debated are highly technical and the validity (or not) of an allegation depends on minute details.

3. So essentially someone like RM who goes public with their allegations and use some mumbo-jumbo to claim it as a fact will be hoodwinking the commons, playing with their fears and try to remove a system which proves to be much more secure than the old ballot system they so successfully have already subverted.

2. I was under impression that you guys only insult me. But I see that you love to insult ALL commons. Yes, Raja Bose, we all commons are supremely morons and mentally incapable of understanding "paper vs EVM" issue. And next you will also perhaps say that we commons also MUST not have any procedure to replace Chief Election Commissioner as we commons dont have mental capability to understand functioning of EC.

Now, why dont you ask admins to put these lines in BOLD in BR logo? Something like "Bharat Rakshak, the educated people to protect India's commons who are all morons and 2 bit idiots".

--------------

Dileep,

You mentioned that masked ROM cant support processor-ID. Is that so? Then what will stop Congress MP in-charge of upgrading and repairing from replacing those processor with processors with tempered code?

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Re : Hitachi CEO putting rigged code

A phone call from anyone in top 10 of USG plus phone call from MMS, Sonia and BEL Chief will convince Hitachi CEO that he should put the rigged code in chip. And yes, there are 10s pf processes to stop the buys in middles and bottom to rig things. But these process will be systematically bypassed when Hitachi CEO himself calls the person in-charge of putting rigged code.

If the chips are all identical and have no serial numbers which can be used to cross references

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Here is a variant of the keypad activation attack: Activate the trojan about 12 hours before polling begins, using the internal clock. The mis-counting can be programmed to begin only after polling begins, and end before polling ends. That way, all machines can be activated together, before they are transported to the polling booths. The machine will behave normally during any "mock polling" tests.

How will EVM get to know the candidate number to be favored?

---

Any proof that only 2-3 guys will be authorized? This is not some small-scale startup company, you know...what happens if all these 2-3 guys are not at work (on vacation, sick, wife left him etc.) - all testing stops? The whole testing procedure will be a defined process - Just like any of the other processes in industry, it will not depend on the availability of 2-3 specific guys.

Raja Bose,

To begin with, you dont have proof that BEL even checked the ROM of the chips when it came back. May be, they did only functional testing to ensure that there are no accidental errors. And are you saying that 2 guys are not enough to check 1000 chips in 2 months? Now not all will fall sick etc for whole 2 months. So there is no compelling reason why BEL chief would allow 4 people to test the chip.

Also, the chip is not tested by human eyeballing. It is tested by some equipment which sends data to PC which gives final hex file. BEL chief can just change the exe which gives final hex file so that when rigged hex file comes, it would report the correct hex file to the testing engineer.

Or else, you get the EXACT steps that BEL followed in checking the chip when it came back. Get the exact number of people involved and number of PCs they used. If this number is large, then only BEL Chief has to worry about it.

[Dileep]

I dont need to bribe even one RO. I need to ensure that my guys are the last 4 guys in the queue in the DC's room. And that is not difficult at all, as no one is suspecting and no one minds if you request DC or other guy to take you case 1 minute later. So lets say count is 19 and you want it to be 17. Out of A, B, C and D, who are LAST 4 in the queue, ask A and B to withdraw.

And how will you know the updated number of withdrawals made till the doors are closed? A list of valid nominations are made after scruitiny, but no updated list is kept on who withdraws after that. The withdrawal applications are just "accepted" and kept. The compilation of the list, after a scruitiny of the withdrawals happens after all the withdrawals are accepted. Also, withdrawals can be filed any time after the scruitiny happens.

So, you need a very reliable tracking mechanism to find who are all filed withdrawals, and keep an updated list, before the "door close", and then do the constant math inside the room.

Is that really possible?

Employees in BEL will need authorization to test the chip. So there may be 100 persons in BEL who are not part of this conspiracy, but they will not have authorization to even touch the chip. Only 2-3 guys would be authorized to test the chip. So if Hitachi has put rigged code in chip, only 2-3 guys in BEL have to be managed.
.

You say this because you have no clue how a big manufacturing operation works. there is no authorization to 'touch'. All operators in IQC would be capable and authorized to do the testing.

[Dileep]

Here is a variant of the keypad activation attack: Activate the trojan about 12 hours before polling begins, using the internal clock. The mis-counting can be programmed to begin only after polling begins, and end before polling ends. That way, all machines can be activated together, before they are transported to the polling booths. The machine will behave normally during any "mock polling" tests.

How will you "Activate" it before 12 hours? Please explain in detail.

[Dileep]

2. I was under impression that you guys only insult me. But I see that you love to insult ALL commons. Yes, Raja Bose, we all commons are supremely morons and mentally incapable of understanding "paper vs EVM" issue. And next you will also perhaps say that we commons also MUST not have any procedure to replace Chief Election Commissioner as we commons dont have mental capability to understand functioning of EC.

Now, why dont you ask admins to put these lines in BOLD in BR logo? Something like "Bharat Rakshak, the educated people to protect India's commons who are all morons and 2 bit idiots".

I am waiting for RM arguing for a right to recall the project director of Agni Missile by the commons. Also, the commons need a right to know the exact capabilities of the Arihant. Right?

You mentioned that masked ROM cant support processor-ID. Is that so? Then what will stop Congress MP in-charge of upgrading and repairing from replacing those processor with processors with tempered code?

Processors can be replaced, but the boards are made with tamper evident material. Once the chip is replaced, the board will show clear signs of doing that. BEL has published this info.

There is NO EVIDENCE of a repair subcontract. The only information is the comment from a BJP neta (not a big one, but someone in some exec committee). If you have evidence, please post.

[Pranav]

Here is a variant of the keypad activation attack: Activate the trojan about 12 hours before polling begins, using the internal clock. The mis-counting can be programmed to begin only after polling begins, and end before polling ends. That way, all machines can be activated together, before they are transported to the polling booths. The machine will behave normally during any "mock polling" tests.

How will you "Activate" it before 12 hours? Please explain in detail.

see http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 22#p702422 . Use of the internal clock drastically reduces number of personnel involved.

The key thing is to count and compare the number of critical people in the two methods (EVM vs paper), consider who appoints and transfers the critical people, and consider whether the impact of failures is local or widespread.

[Raja Bose]

2. I was under impression that you guys only insult me. But I see that you love to insult ALL commons.

Well...well...prickly Nehruvian sense of self-esteem on display here. It is funny to see someone who wants to hoodwink the commons, claiming to be all insulted "for the commons".

Yes, Raja Bose, we all commons are supremely morons and mentally incapable of understanding "paper vs EVM" issue. And next you will also perhaps say that we commons also MUST not have any procedure to replace Chief Election Commissioner as we commons dont have mental capability to understand functioning of EC.

As you have so amply demonstrated on this thread, even you with a IIT-D CSE degree and an MS from Rutgers are unable to appreciate the nuances of the technology used in the EVM even though it is extremely basic Electrical Engineering simply because you have a software background (as opposed to hardware). Otherwise we would not be hearing your BS about ROMs which cannot be read by any means and undetectable microcode and other fantastic stuff The debate is not some broad-based Paper vs. EVM debate. It is about the core technical and security aspects of both systems of voting. And the validity (or lack thereof) of each system's strengths and weaknesses depend on precise details. Do you expect all commons to know and appreciate those details? Going by your twisted logic, perhaps we should let commons decide on how medical procedures should be conducted, how ICs should be manufactured, how factories should be secured, what troop movements should the Cold Start doctrine have - after all using your logic since they are not idiots or 2-bit morons, hence, they surely have the expertise to decide all this! Maybe if (God forbid!) you ever get admitted to a hospital, we will get some commons off the street (including the local chaiwallah) to operate on you - after all they are not morons, they surely have the expertise to do medical procedures on you!

That is why you have specialized expert committees because everybody cannot possibly know everything - It does not make them stupid or moronic unless you are yourself planning to publicly show your contempt for the commons, which till now you had hidden from their view. The fact that you yourself hold the commons in contempt is indisputable given the confidence you display in hoodwinking them and taking them for a ride.

Now, why dont you ask admins to put these lines in BOLD in BR logo? Something like "Bharat Rakshak, the educated people to protect India's commons who are all morons and 2 bit idiots".

Actually I should put this in bold on your website:
You have the hallmarks of a truly dirty neta - take any issue which can be analysed and investigated impartially and make it into an emotional debate where heart rules over head - now you know why I club you and your kind with the netas who instigate riots in our country and then leave the commons to face the music.

[Pranav]

There is NO EVIDENCE of a repair subcontract. The only information is the comment from a BJP neta (not a big one, but someone in some exec committee). If you have evidence, please post.

It is a safe assumption that the congress controlled EC will give private entities of its choice access to the EVMs. Also, it is safe to assume that even in PSUs, appointments and transfers will be made with riggability as the main objective.

[Raja Bose]

I am waiting for RM arguing for a right to recall the project director of Agni Missile by the commons. Also, the commons need a right to know the exact capabilities of the Arihant. Right?

Heck, I am waiting for the day when RM ji demands that the commons have a right to know the nuclear launch codes and each common should be given his own nuclear football!

[Dileep]

To show the ludicrity of the claim that the BEL CEO can do mischief directly, let us look at the organizational structure of a huge company like BEL.

BEL is majority owned by GOI, and the CEO is the CMD, appointed by GOI. BEL has 9 factories, and employ 12000+ people. The corporate office is in Nagavara, Bangalore. The EVMS are designed at the R&D facility in Bangalore, and manufactured at the Navi Mumbai and/or Bangalore facilities.

Each location have its head, reporting to the board of directors (not to the CEO). The bangalore complex in Jalahall have a director for the whole operation, and the other manufacturing operations have GMs. The R&D will be under one GM, reporting to the director, and under him, there will be a group manager for the commercial products. The EVM group will be under a manager in that group. He will have managers for the hardware and software teams. The software team will have one leader.

It is practically impossible to byepass any of the hierarchy. In fact, the CEO can not even go to the R&D facility without a formal visit plan, along with his entourage, and joined by the GM and everyone in the chain.

This is true for ANY company.

I work for a pvt. ltd. company, a rather big one. The MD is all powerful. Still, if he wants to get a supplier approved, he will have to go through the system. He will call only the GM of logistics. The process should complete all steps, and the article should technically qualify as per the procedure. Preferential commercial terms may be made on the MD's insistence, but nothing can be done on the technical aspects.

Whether it is BEL, or Hitachi, the CEO is virtually powerless to influence the technical side of the business.

[Dileep]

How will you "Activate" it before 12 hours? Please explain in detail.

see http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 22#p702422 . Use of the internal clock drastically reduces number of personnel involved.

The key thing is to count and compare the number of critical people in the two methods (EVM vs paper), consider who appoints and transfers the critical people, and consider whether the impact of failures is local or widespread.

How will you do the key presses 12 hour before poll? The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election. So, someone doing the key presses is impossible.

[Dileep]

There is NO EVIDENCE of a repair subcontract. The only information is the comment from a BJP neta (not a big one, but someone in some exec committee). If you have evidence, please post.

It is a safe assumption that the congress controlled EC will give private entities of its choice access to the EVMs. Also, it is safe to assume that even in PSUs, appointments and transfers will be made with riggability as the main objective.

No, it is NOT a safe assumption. It maybe for a blind BJP supporter like you, but not for a rational.

Post the proof for the maintenance contract.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: I dont need to bribe even one RO. I need to ensure that my guys are the last 4 guys in the queue in the DC's room. And that is not difficult at all, as no one is suspecting and no one minds if you request DC or other guy to take you case 1 minute later. So lets say count is 19 and you want it to be 17. Out of A, B, C and D, who are LAST 4 in the queue, ask A and B to withdraw.

Dileep:

1. And how will you know the updated number of withdrawals made till the doors are closed?

2. A list of valid nominations are made after scruitiny, but no updated list is kept on who withdraws after that. The withdrawal applications are just "accepted" and kept.

3. The compilation of the list, after a scruitiny of the withdrawals happens after all the withdrawals are accepted. Also, withdrawals can be filed any time after the scruitiny happens.

April-2 : First day to fill form
April-8 : Last day to fill form
April-9 : Congress gets its candidate number (even if that changes, it can be managed later)
April-9 : Congress knows what should be nCandidates
April-10 : DC rejects "bad" forms. No more rejection after this. (sorry for some confusion I had before)
April-13 , 3pm : Withdrawal's last date time.

Now lets see April-13, 3pm. At 3pm, some 10 people will be in DC room. It is now customary that DC asks the person or his election agent to come in person and sit before him and sign the withdrawal paper, perticularly if withdrawal is at the last moment. Not a law, but a universal custom, as good as low. At some 3.15pm, DC would lock his room. Now if you are in room, that does not mean that you must resign. You can say "sorry, I want to continue and leave the room". DC wont bother. But once you walk out of room, you can get back.

The withdrawal is confirmed when DC signs the withdrawal letter. The staff updates the list meticulously. So as each person walks out, almost everyone in the staff and everyone in the room knows the latest candidate count. DC does not make any attempt to keep it secret. So any Sonia's agent in near by circuit house can manage 20-30 seats transactions with his mobiles constantly connected to men in 20-30 DCs' rooms. So say your four guys A, B, C and D are last in the queue. When A's turn comes, DC will be willing to wait for some 1-2 minutes, but not more. These 2 minutes are enough for Sonia's agent in circuit house to

1. Find out what is nCandidates when A's turn comes
2. Look into the sheet astrologer gave and ask A, B to withdraw and ask C, D to continue (or whatever needed to tweak the count).

In out of 25 seats he is managing, say he fails in 2-4. This is highball, as you are merely looking into table and deciding one number. Even then Congress benefits in 21-24 seats. Nothing to lose, only to gain.

So my estimate is :

1. Congress sent 200 rigged EVMs in 300 seats
2. The election was in 5-6 rounds, each round had 50-70 seats of these 300 seats
3. Two-three Sonia agents are enough to issue orders to dummies in 25-30 seats each whether they should continue or stay

In AP, YSR alone can handle all MP as well as MLA seats, as over 90% DC will be willing to wait 5-10 minutes for him. DC is not even suspecting that rigging is going on. He merely things that independents are being asked to withdraw or stay in race by CM as some routine political game.

Now (nCandidates + k ) mod 5 + 1 is ONE of the many possible logics. If I have more information on what data is input into EVMs, I can design many more such logics.

An another logic is mock poll. Each presiding officer is given a sheet to follow mock poll and write results back on the sheet. So most of them will follow mock poll as in the sheet. So EC can give a mock poll that would make Congress the favorite candidate.

The point is : It is possible to communicate the Favorite_Candidate_Number to code by using EXTERNAL standard input as parameters and tweaking those EXTERNAL standard parameters.

This flaw is absent in paper ballots. You cant tell ballot box whom to favor. Whereas, they are ways to tell EVM code whom to favor. IOW, EVM is not guaranteed to be impartial whereas ballot box is 100% impartial.

[Pranav]

How will you do the key presses 12 hour before poll? The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election. So, someone doing the key presses is impossible.

Please post proof of your claims.

[Pranav]

No, it is NOT a safe assumption. It maybe for a blind BJP supporter like you, but not for a rational.

Post the proof for the maintenance contract.

It is you who is the blind devotee of your hypothetical systems!

[Raja Bose]

How will you do the key presses 12 hour before poll? The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election. So, someone doing the key presses is impossible.

Please post proof of your claims.

Pranav, refer to the media article on invited EVM hacking attempts - it mentions all those points Dileep posted.

[Sanku]

How will you do the key presses 12 hour before poll? The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election. So, someone doing the key presses is impossible.

Please post proof of your claims.

Its all over the place Pranav, including on this thread, many times. Please desist from this line of attack. Think of another one.

[Raja Bose]

Whereas, they are ways to tell EVM code whom to favor.

Except those trifling problems of injecting the code unnoticed etc. But I guess that is trivial.

As for ballot boxes being 100% impartial - I am sure we have all seen that in our 60+ years of democracy . All said and done, as of now, we have seen ballot box based rigging in action whereas the EVM hacking is currently limited to unproven theories - I am not saying EVMs are not hackable (all systems are) but without practical working proof, it is certainly a leap of faith of massive proportions to claim that somehow ballot box based voting is more secure just on the basis of some strawman arguments and dubious assumptions.

[Pranav]

Please post proof of your claims.

Pranav, refer to the media article on invited EVM hacking attempts - it mentions all those points Dileep posted.

OK, what the article mentions is "EVMs are then kept in sealed strong rooms with provision for the candidates to put their individual seals on the strong rooms.". That is weak security. There no indication that "The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election", as Dileep claims. We are concerned about the entire period from the cut-off time for filing of nomination until the actual poll.

[Sanku]

OK, what the article mentions is "EVMs are then kept in sealed strong rooms with provision for the candidates to put their individual seals on the strong rooms.".

Yes but the EVM storage and distribution before the elections has also been posted.

There no indication that "The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election", as Dileep claims. We are concerned about the entire period from the cut-off time for filing of nomination until the actual poll.

Weren't you talking of the last 12 hours only? But we have been over this, the special period, is only from post randomization (EVM allotment to a booth) step to the actual poll.

Considering the number of people that would need to be involved for this, the chances of this remaining anything like a secret does not sound plausible to me at all. For example BJP did badly in MP and Gujarat too, and there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that the institutions in those states are now saffornized in the way Delhi is Kangressized.

This moves away from the central few people model once again (assuming that magically undetectable Trojans have been introduced in the first place -- which I think is not plausible too frankly)

[Tanaji]

Expert: EC silent on EVM tampering

BHUBANESWAR: Election watch group functionary V V Rao, who is now on a countrywide tour making public demonstration to prove that EVMs used in elections could be tampered with easily to the advantage of interested parties and candidates, on Monday accused the Election Commission of India of showing not much interest for transparency in the existing voting system.

V V Rao is being disingenuous. What is he trying to prove? Even if EC gives him a EVM and he subverts it by whatever means, what does that prove? I can write a program on a PC that says "Hello World", but doesnt mean that I can get the same program to run on a protected system, much less hundreds of thousands of them all with no connectivity...

I think this is just to prove a point and a do a lungi dance about it. Great PR value!

[Dileep]

OK, what the article mentions is "EVMs are then kept in sealed strong rooms with provision for the candidates to put their individual seals on the strong rooms.". That is weak security. There no indication that "The machines are always under control, in public view, and in the presence of agents of all political parties during the run-up to the election", as Dileep claims. We are concerned about the entire period from the cut-off time for filing of nomination until the actual poll.

Read the handbook for returning officers. The EXACT procedures for handling the EVMS once they are allocated for use is clearly given.

Your claim is that some will activate the trojan 12 hours before the poll. Please back that up. Explain how exactly you propose to do it, given the clear procedure in the handbook.

[Dileep]

No, it is NOT a safe assumption. It maybe for a blind BJP supporter like you, but not for a rational.

Post the proof for the maintenance contract.

It is you who is the blind devotee of your hypothetical systems!

Not HYPOTHETICAL. The procedure is available in an official document.

Read it.

[Dileep]

April-2 : First day to fill form
April-8 : Last day to fill form
April-9 : Congress gets its candidate number (even if that changes, it can be managed later)
April-9 : Congress knows what should be nCandidates
April-10 : DC rejects "bad" forms. No more rejection after this. (sorry for some confusion I had before)
April-13 , 3pm : Withdrawal's last date time.

Now lets see April-13, 3pm. At 3pm, some 10 people will be in DC room. It is now customary that DC asks the person or his election agent to come in person and sit before him and sign the withdrawal paper, perticularly if withdrawal is at the last moment. Not a law, but a universal custom, as good as low. At some 3.15pm, DC would lock his room. Now if you are in room, that does not mean that you must resign. You can say "sorry, I want to continue and leave the room". DC wont bother. But once you walk out of room, you can get back.

The withdrawal is confirmed when DC signs the withdrawal letter. The staff updates the list meticulously. So as each person walks out, almost everyone in the staff and everyone in the room knows the latest candidate count. DC does not make any attempt to keep it secret. So any Sonia's agent in near by circuit house can manage 20-30 seats transactions with his mobiles constantly connected to men in 20-30 DCs' rooms. So say your four guys A, B, C and D are last in the queue. When A's turn comes, DC will be willing to wait for some 1-2 minutes, but not more. These 2 minutes are enough for Sonia's agent in circuit house to

1. Find out what is nCandidates when A's turn comes
2. Look into the sheet astrologer gave and ask A, B to withdraw and ask C, D to continue (or whatever needed to tweak the count).

In out of 25 seats he is managing, say he fails in 2-4. This is highball, as you are merely looking into table and deciding one number. Even then Congress benefits in 21-24 seats. Nothing to lose, only to gain.

The withdrawals gets filed ANY TIME between April 10-13, and no one compiles an interim list. There is no need. Secondly, the withdrawals are not finalized till all the applications are accepted. The final list is compiled after everything.

There is no ongoing compilation of the list. Hence no means to track withdrawals.

[Pranav]

Weren't you talking of the last 12 hours only? But we have been over this, the special period, is only from post randomization (EVM allotment to a booth) step to the actual poll.

Considering the number of people that would need to be involved for this, the chances of this remaining anything like a secret does not sound plausible to me at all. For example BJP did badly in MP and Gujarat too, and there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that the institutions in those states are now saffornized in the way Delhi is Kangressized.

This moves away from the central few people model once again (assuming that magically undetectable Trojans have been introduced in the first place -- which I think is not plausible too frankly)

The activation can be done any time after the assignment of keys to candidates. Since keys are alloted in alphabetical order, this is any time after the last date for withdrawal.

The "randomized" allotment of machines to booths within a constituency is quite irrelevant, as far as activation is concerned.

One would be able to further reduce number of people needed by wireless activation. Yes, an antenna would be needed, and the necessary changes could be done at the time of maintenance. If one uses metallic parts of the casing as an antenna, then one might even be able to do without a separate antenna.

[Dileep]

Back to square one, aren't we?

Good. Another 33 more pages to go, and BRF Oldie in the bag!!

[Pranav]

Back to square one, aren't we?

Good. Another 33 more pages to go, and BRF Oldie in the bag!!

Don't lose heart so soon, we haven't even begun talking about totalizers.

[Pranav]

It is also pertinent to mention 3D stacked IC's - so examination of the surface of a chip does not necessarily tell you all about the circuitry.

[Tanaji]

Back to square one, aren't we?

Good. Another 33 more pages to go, and BRF Oldie in the bag!!

Don't lose heart so soon, we haven't even begun talking about totalizers.

totalizers have not been used in the election yet apart from the one test that was done. So its not an issue, for now.

[Sanku]

It is also pertinent to mention 3D stacked IC's - so examination of the surface of a chip does not necessarily tell you all about the circuitry.

There is no such thing as 3D stacked ICs (at least not yet) All that's stacked are the via's and not the semiconductor itself. It is possible to talk about via layout from surface geometry visualization and or destructive removal thereof.

Standard stuff.

[Sanku]

The "randomized" allotment of machines to booths within a constituency is quite irrelevant, as far as activation is concerned.

Fine thats not a point I am debating anyway, all I am saying is that the activation can only be done in a special period. You still need a whole huge number of people.

One would be able to further reduce number of people needed by wireless activation. Yes, an antenna would be needed, and the necessary changes could be done at the time of maintenance. If one uses metallic parts of the casing as an antenna, then one might even be able to do without a separate antenna.

No we are talking of in chip Trojan + physical intervention on box + more people involved at more sites.

More people because now == people needed for activation + people needed to modify boxes
And as you said "would be able" --> hence future possibility, perhaps, and easily detected by cracking open a box -- I wouldn't worry about it.I am sure that all the boxes would be inspected for physical integrity in all sorts of BEL centers anyway.

[Rahul Mehta]

The withdrawals gets filed ANY TIME between April 10-13, and no one compiles an interim list. There is no need. Secondly, the withdrawals are not finalized till all the applications are accepted. The final list is compiled after everything.

There is no ongoing compilation of the list. Hence no means to track withdrawals.

The list is complied but not disclosed to public. A friendly call to peon in DC's office will get you the latest list and count. And on Apr-13 3pm (or whatever is the the last date time to withdraw), anyone in DC office election branch can tell you the count. DC makes NO attempt to this information secret , and none is needed.

.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: Ballot boxes are 100% impartial, whereas, they are ways to tell EVM code whom to favor.

Raja Bose : Except those trifling problems of injecting the code unnoticed etc. But I guess that is trivial.

As for ballot boxes being 100% impartial - I am sure we have all seen that in our 60+ years of democracy . All said and done, as of now, we have seen ballot box based rigging in action whereas the EVM hacking is currently limited to unproven theories - I am not saying EVMs are not hackable (all systems are) but without practical working proof, it is certainly a leap of faith of massive proportions to claim that somehow ballot box based voting is more secure just on the basis of some strawman arguments and dubious assumptions.

Raja Bose,

There are some Hitachi Rakshaks like you, Dileep, Tanaji etc who claim that Hitachi CEO will not ask technicians to put rigged code even after CIA Director himself calls Hitachi CEO. In fact, I assume other way round - Sonia etc gave contract to Hitachi ONLY after Hitachi CEO assured that rigged code will be put in place. And trust me, except Hitachi Rakshaks I find here, over 99% (sic) commons including Congress voters will agree that Hitachi *can* put rigged code.

And there are Process Rakshaks like Yourself , Dileep and company, who claim that processes are so water tight that BEL staff will block rigged chip no matter what manipulation BEL CEO does. The processes did not stop Raju of Satyam from making false claim of Rs 1000s of cr of FDs, the processes did not stop Telgiji etc. But BEL seems to be some place outside universe. Worst comes worst, get the boxful of chip with actual code, do the test and after the test is over, replace the boxful of chip with chip with tempered code. These microcontrollers do not have IDs and so replacing one boxful of chip is as easy as replacing boxful of biscuits. In any case, except Process Rakshaks , over 99% of (sic) commons will agree that it is easy for BEL CEO and top 3 guys plus 2 more middle/junior guys to bypass the necessary tests.

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Till date, the only glitch was - what do you do with tempered code, when candidate number is not known? The modulo-5 logic shows that there are several ways to use EXTERNAL parameters like nCandidates, polling date or combination of them to tell machine code whom to favor.

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And paper ballots were just fine, only some 2% booths had problem. And you repeatedly keep ignoring camera and stamp with 20 second built in delay. And yes, there were stray cases of booth capturing, but thats because judges promote criminals. So problem was with judges, not with ballot papers.