Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2010 08:20

I have a few more thoughts flashing in my mind that I would like to express and hopefully I can put them down exactly as I feel them.

Long long ago a Pakistani came to BRF (possibly before Kargil) and stated that peace and reconciliation are desirable but that India must do something for Pakistanis to "save face and maintain echandee" (my words, not his). Most Packee watchers on here would have observed similar suggestions coming from other Packees in the media - that India needs to be a "big brother", be "magnanimous" etc. Such ideas are usually met with the contempt they deserve given the nature of the obnoxious obstreperous Pakbarian.

My recent interaction with Paki "liberals" makes me feel that there are a bunch of Paquis who are beginning to "smell the coffee" and asking whether or not their (abomi-)nation is headed up shit creek. While interacting with them I pointed out what everyone on BRF knows. I pointed out that what Pakistan has done is to hate India so much that they have landed in America's lap and are now being made to do the US's job. I also pointed out that this is not new - and that Pakis have enslaved themselves to the US right from the 60s. Pakliberals have not sussed this out yet. No point in talking about how confused they are. (If they are not confused they are insincere and doing taqiya). But the hatred of the US in Pakistan indicates that there is some rudimentary thought process among Pakbarians - call it gut feeling or butt feeling.

This puts Pakiland in an interesting situation. They are welcome to hate the US and hate India too. That will make them allies of the Talbunnnies and their pigpenpals. If the Paki mango Abdul votes (using his extra disposable sons and zakat) firmly in favor of Talibunnies, then the American plans will be toast, and an Islamic Talibaniac government will take over Pakistan. US aid is unlikely to be accepted or continued to a Talibaniac government.

Currently only two things are holding back a Talibaniac government in Pakistan. One is that part of the Paki army that is fighting for the Americans, and the second is what Paki liberals and dollar beggars keep on saying - i.e "Only 11.8874647393065497346 % of Pakis support Islamic parties. The rest of us are moderate"

If Pakistan is genuinely "moderate" and does not want a Talibaniac government, then hostility against India and the US are unsustainable (assuming some coordination and cooperation between India and the US). Pakistan will get crushed between India and the US.

Now just think. How can Pakistanis water down hatred of India among mango Abduls? All these years they have been howling "Kaaaashmeeeeeeeer!!!7000000000000 raping troops. Pregnant Muslim bellies being ripped open. Jeeehaaaaaaardddd!" How can they now suddenly turn around and tell Mango Abdul. All is well. No more need for war with India. Mango Abduul will say "Bugger off. Where the faq is Kashmir?"

This is what Pakis are anticipating when the say India must "give something to Pakistan as "big brother"". In order to pacify Abdul who is rabidly anti-India Paquis will be required to shiow some nominal victory so that they can say "India has relented. We have won. Now we can have peace"

I believe that both India and the US believe that a game can be played in this way - by "giving in" at least in words - "make borders irrelevant" etc. Two comments here

1) I hate it. i would rather see Taliban take over Pakistan
2) GoI does not seem to see it this way. They too seem to want the moderates of Pakstan (if any) to "win" and are willing to play a game.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 15 Jun 2010 08:28

arun wrote:X Posted from the ISI thread.

Christopher Alexander who spent six years working in Afghanistan — first as Canada's ambassador, and then as a UN envoy — says the Taliban would have folded up shop by now were it not for the support given to the insurgency group by Pakistan's military establishment, especially the Directorate for Inter-Service Intelligence.

Alexander made the explosive comments Monday before the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence. ………………

This guy will soon be caught in some scandal or heavily discredited for making such awful comments against an ally.I think even if ISI helps and funds a succesful attack on White House, GOTUS will still call Pakistan an ally and worse, supply them with more advanced weapons to fight out the "remnants of ISI working with taliban".
I realized it is not possible to wake someone who is already awake but is pretending to sleep. I feel American citizens are being cheated by the GOTUS on a grand scale about how their tax payers money is spent in feeding a monster who has already spilled their blood and continues to spill more of it.
Over 1000 US soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and I believe atleast 70-80% would have been avoided if US had a better transparent policy in dealing with the Terrorist Republic of Pakistan.
Guys like Alexander can shout as loud as he can from top of UN building or jump in east river but it aint gonna make any difference.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jun 2010 08:46

Looks like Ms Rao's statement is being understood now. Thats Sarkari position.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jun 2010 08:48

Can Obama speed up the battlefield clock or slow down the domestic politics clock?

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2 ... tics_clock

Getting Pakistan to pressure the Taliban on their side of the border more effectively would help even more, and perhaps it is time to consider some out-of-the-box options like developing a very explicit quid pro quo arrangement with Pakistan: drawing up a list of their strategic "asks" and putting a concrete price tag in terms of anti-Taliban/pro-Afghanistan actions on each of them. If Pakistan delivers more, we will deliver more.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 15 Jun 2010 09:03

ramana wrote:Looks like Ms Rao's statement is being understood now. Thats Sarkari position.

ramana garu
Why cant She include "Aksai chin"? If she can make borders irrelevant why not include that part of Kashmir which was "gifted" to China.
That area is part of Kashmir and must be included in any talks about Kashmir with Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2010 09:18

Altair wrote: If she can make borders irrelevant why not include that part of Kashmir which was "gifted" to China.
That area is part of Kashmir and must be included in any talks about Kashmir with Pakistan.

You are thinking like me. You don't want "moderate Paquis" to win. You are a Taliban supporter. For moderates to win you have to praise what Pakistan has achieved in 63 years.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 15 Jun 2010 09:26

"moderate Paquis" ? What is this animal ?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jun 2010 09:46

Shiv, about your earlier post wherein you mentioned about your hunch on a split in the PA. I believe that the appearance of such a split is not surprising because the entire society of Pakistan, which has been confused from Day One, is similarly split and the PA reflects the society. I refer to it as an appearance because of the confusion among them. On the one hand, with the spread of wahhabi/deobandi influence and their grabbing of Berelvi/Sufi mosques, a very large section of the society has been radicalized. The goal for the Pakistani society is increasingly obvious, help establish Islam wherever possible and by whatever means including terrorism. The imminent exit of the American/NATO forces has confirmed the invincibility of the brave Muslim warriors, first they defeated one superpower and within two decades, they have defeated the other too. This is the most glorious period of Islam after that of the 'Four Rightly Guided Caliphs'. The next hurdle is India. This is where the Pakistani society (and by implication, the PA) sees two approaches.

The brave punjabi Taliban possibly think that they can simply go ahead and do what they did before and victory will be eventually theirs. They may not have the entire PA/ISI/Politicians supporting them but they have significant collaborators. They get funds from diverse sources and have tentacles into western countries like Headley, Rana et al. Besides, they have Allah on their side. It is my guess that their influence extends up to middle level officers in the Pakistani armed forces. The recruitment nowadays comes from diverse sections of society and the influence of the Punjabi Taliban cannot be ruled out.

More sensible elements, like the Corps Commanders, senior officers and the RAPE are at variance with the above approach. They are not interested in world dominance and are just limited to the region, especially India. They know it is not so easy as the Punjabi Taliban think and they would need the arms from the US and China and the support of the other 1½ friends. So, they are up to the usual taqiya while consolidating the means to their objective.

IMO, this is clearly the understanding on which the American policies are based. Of course, from an Indian PoV, the above division hardly matters because we are at the receiving end in either case.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Jun 2010 10:15

Indians Being rational human beings are assuming that Paquistanians are normal Pee-pal. The nature of Abdul is well understood, they dont desire peace but domination . Jinnah has the same issue with Congress and they are all the children born of Zinna sin. As long as they rot in their own Pakhana we should not be concerned about their H&D etc. amd make all the arrangement, preparation of eliminating any threat toward us emanating from their side. End and means sould be clear and not be confused. Shiv Theory Of Paquistan (STOP) dont stand the scrutiny of Past Paki Perfideous Prertentions and Pagal Psyche fed with prepetual motion of conspiracy theories . Bottom line, they are incapable of consistency in any civilized accord and behaviour and Hudna cant be a susbtitue for permanent peace and settlement . Destroy them we must and most desirable if they do it to themselves .

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Jun 2010 10:28

S.S.Sir jee
We know that eventually we have to fight war with Paki to take the above mentioned Pakistaniat out of them. This is the oppertunity for Indians to proove their claim on near abroad and firmly take the first step on the path of Civilizational recovery. Just like USA after 2nd Word War , India after removing the Islamist Jihadi threat from civilized world will take its own place in the comity of nations. The defeat of Islamists will set in motion the unravelling of whole lot more in Islamic mythic world than what they had bargained for , a detrimental to their so called civilizational existence. Can they afford to take chance ?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Jun 2010 11:24

shiv wrote:My recent interaction with Paki "liberals" makes me feel that there are a bunch of Paquis who are beginning to "smell the coffee" and asking whether or not their (abomi-)nation is headed up shit creek. While interacting with them I pointed out what everyone on BRF knows. I pointed out that what Pakistan has done is to hate India so much that they have landed in America's lap and are now being made to do the US's job.

This is not very different from India. Pakistan in fact had better per capita income than India as recently as 2008, and is neck and neck with India in 2010.

I think the more obvious explanation is likely to be the truth. Which is that India needs breathing space from Pakistan in order to develop. India has a very inefficient government system, which causes a lot of waste. And peace with Pakistan is easier than reforming this system.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Jun 2010 11:51

There are many clocks ticking:-

Clock 1: How long would the US stay on in Pakistan? This decides how long the Pakistanis would have their military and economy supported by global cash. (Pre-9/11 Pakistan)

Clock 2: How long would it take for the Pakistani economy to come crashing down with hyperinflation and scarcity. This basically decides how long the Pakistani Government retains a semblance of Governance. (Zimbabwe minus Army Control)

Clock 3: How long can the Pakistani Army hide the cracks in its teeth behind the big mustache? Too much revolt from the Islamism inspired, Pushtun-bonded in the Army against the Pakistani Army's various actions in FATA etc could cause a snowball effect. Of course the actions are cosmetic, but there is still hardship for the people there, and some mujahids are inevitably trapped. (Somalia)

Clock 4: How long can the Pakistani Army hold out against the TTP and other Pushtun groups from seizing complete control of Khyber Pukhtoonkhwa and FATA and declaring themselves a separate Emirate? A Bangladesh situation where the splitting off of the country becomes apparent could induce a Yugoslavian situation with Sindh also opting for Independence, etc, rather than letting Pakjab lord over the rest of the country. (Yugoslavia)

Clock 5: How long can the ISI in fact have something to offer the various Islamic outfits and the Taliban? When the ISI lose all control over the country for one reason or another, why should the LeJ, Sipah-e-Sahiba, LeT, JuD, HuJI, etc. need to heed ISI's agenda or control? (Frankenstein Monster)

Clock 6: The Islamization of the Pakistani Army proceeds in so far as that the RAPE class within the Army is completely sidelined, and the radical faction completely takes over, which sees no need for Pakistan's bonhomie with USA and introduces change in the set-up of the civilian facade as well to correspond to that of a Theocracy or a Caliphate. The nuclear weapons are taken over by this group. (Sunni Iran -minus all civilization)

Clock 7: How long can India hold back its hand against an incessant barrage of terrorist attacks? An intervention by India resets all other clocks! (MKG)

Clock 8: How long it would take external powers to defang Pakistan of its nuclear weapons and put them beyond reach of Pakistanis of whatever color, green or dark-green? To some extent this depends on a change of agenda in Washington as well as the readiness of the RAPE to exchange their toys for a new haven for their families and themselves when the ship sinks. Attacks on the RAPE and the Army by the jihadists could facilitate this outcome.

Clock 9: How long it would take India to reach an acceptable level of military readiness and political courage to take on the beast? Dependent on also a lot of factors, among them our GDP growth, our industrialization, change of political guard
to the new generation, more strategic insight, military modernization, internal stablity, communal peace within India, a credible missile defense shield, etc.

Anytime any Pakistani clock strikes 12, it speeds up all other clocks too.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 15 Jun 2010 12:18

Shooting at hospital injures five in Lahore
Monday, June 14, 2010

LAHORE: Several people were injured Monday in a shooting incident near a hospital in Lahore, local sources said

Police said two groups clashed over the issue of tenders for the hospital canteen.

----

Target killing claims 7 more lives in Karachi‎
Tue, June 15, 2010
KARACHI: Seven more people were killed in different acts of target killings here on Tuesday, according to SAMAA TV.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 15 Jun 2010 13:09

Thw worst case scenario for india is probably clock 5. The moment ISI loses control of let,huji...etc terrorist attacks will rain in india and since ISI is no longer in control of these groups they will wash their hands of any attack. Neither will the group give a shit about paksitan's image as a 'terrorist country' as long they are carrying out jeehard which cant be controlled like a valve . What I mean to say is that both isi and terrorist group will gain some sort of an 'immunity' from indian dossiers.

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 15 Jun 2010 13:10

vera_k wrote: This is not very different from India. Pakistan in fact had better per capita income than India as recently as 2008, and is neck and neck with India in 2010.

I think the more obvious explanation is likely to be the truth. Which is that India needs breathing space from Pakistan in order to develop. India has a very inefficient government system, which causes a lot of waste. And peace with Pakistan is easier than reforming this system.

Their per capita income was similar to India as they have received aid from various countries of 70 billion $ since their formation. Remove that aid and they will become Somalia with nuclear weapon.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 15 Jun 2010 13:13

Their per capita income was similar to India as they have received aid from various countries of 70 billion $ since their formation.

reminded of my grade 10 economic text which used to say that per capita income is not an accurate indicator of the country's progress since it is not evenly distributed.

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Jun 2010 13:24

X Posted from the International nuclear watch thread.

The Washington Post is reporting that the US Government is not buying PR China’s argument that the deal to supply the CHASNUPP 3 & 4 nuclear reactor to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is halal as it was grandfathered prior to PR China’s entry into the Nuclear Supplier Group (NSG).

WaPo reports that the US will raise its objections to the deal during the NSG annual plenary meeting in New Zealand next week:

Washington objects to China-Pakistan nuclear deal

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Jun 2010 13:26

Religious motivated violence continues with one group of Muslims killing another group of Muslims in the financial hub of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Karachi.

In the first incident a Muslim adherent of the minority Shia sect is gunned down by motorcycle borne killers presumed to be Muslim adherents of the majority Sunni sect.

In the second incident a Muslim adherent of the majority Sunni sect and Deobandi sub-sect is likewise gunned down by motor cycle borne killers. From the article it is not clear if this was Muslim on Muslim sectarian based fratricide with the Shia sect taking a swipe at the Sunni sect or if this was a case of Muslim on Muslim sub-sectarian based fratricide with Sunni Muslims of the Barelvi sub-sect taking a hit at Sunni Muslims of the Deobandi sub-sect. To complicate matters both variants of this religious motivated fratricide have been recorded in Karachi over the past fortnight.

Shia scholar, SSP activist gunned down

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Jun 2010 13:30

I believe that Rajiv Gandhi was a well meaning but a coward. He would fall short on all incidents that required a backbone like

Brasstacks
Bhopal Gas tragedy
Controlling Italian friends of Madam read Bofors scandal
Running and hiding in Italian embassy in 1971 (??)
Chinese border incursions (sumudung chu incident) Note Retaliation was done by Junior officers in Army even though there was political directive to keep quiet

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jun 2010 14:25

Prem wrote: Just like USA after 2nd Word War , India after removing the Islamist Jihadi threat from civilized world will take its own place in the comity of nations. The defeat of Islamists will set in motion the unravelling of whole lot more in Islamic mythic world than what they had bargained for , a detrimental to their so called civilizational existence.

Prem, I agree that it will have to be India that will have to destroy the jihadists in our immediate neighbourhood. Nobody else. The US and NATO have failed or are failing and their failure poses the gravest threat to us. India can no longer play coy with the Afghan bride and her vile suitor, Pakistan. When India asserts itself in Afghanistan, the Punjabi Taliban and the LeT will be turned against us with full force by the PA. These events will not wait for our economy to have a decade of double-digit growth etc. as we have set ourselves the pre-condition to take on Pakistan. These dynamics are beyond our control.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 15 Jun 2010 15:03

US to object to China-Pakistan nuclear deal

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 15 Jun 2010 15:34

Carl_T wrote:My CT: Union Carbide leak was planned and executed by the US to damage India.

My CT:
Indo-US nuke deal was deviced by pakistan because they want it too!
1971 was planned by ISI because they wanted to hate India eternally
Partition of India was my idea because I didnt want to born in pakistan

IB4TL

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 15 Jun 2010 15:55

Partition of India was my idea because I didnt want to born in pakistan

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 15 Jun 2010 16:08

SSridhar wrote:Prem, I agree that it will have to be India that will have to destroy the jihadists in our immediate neighbourhood. Nobody else. The US and NATO have failed or are failing and their failure poses the gravest threat to us. India can no longer play coy with the Afghan bride and her vile suitor, Pakistan. When India asserts itself in Afghanistan, the Punjabi Taliban and the LeT will be turned against us with full force by the PA. These events will not wait for our economy to have a decade of double-digit growth etc. as we have set ourselves the pre-condition to take on Pakistan. These dynamics are beyond our control.

SSridhar ji, there has to be some way to counter this threat. Like blackmailing on water issue, or establish a good relation with afghan taliban etc. Do you think this can be worked out?
Also I think if US keep pakistan alive on its $$ aid then that could be another weapon of blackmail.
I think we giving $$ to afghan and same time US giving $$ to pakistan is a good combined strategy.
I am no expert on this subject, so please dont mind me.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Jun 2010 17:02

vic wrote:I believe that Rajiv Gandhi was a well meaning but a coward. He would fall short on all incidents that required a backbone like

Brasstacks
Bhopal Gas tragedy
Controlling Italian friends of Madam read Bofors scandal
Running and hiding in Italian embassy in 1971 (??)
Chinese border incursions (sumudung chu incident) Note Retaliation was done by Junior officers in Army even though there was political directive to keep quiet

Rather than referring him as coward(if he really is a coward he wouldnt have done those adventurous things), he is immature to the kind of job/politics(everything) he was pushed in. When he started becoming wise(like supporting Chandrasekar Gov) he was no more with us.

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 15 Jun 2010 17:24

American on mission to kill bin Laden arrested

PESHAWAR, Pakistan – An American armed with a pistol and a 40-inch sword was detained in northern Pakistan and told investigators he was on a solo mission to kill Osama bin Laden, a police officer said Tuesday.

The man was identified as 52-year-old Californian construction worker Gary Brooks Faulkner, said officer Mumtaz Ahmad Khan.

He was picked up in a forest in the Chitral region late on Sunday, he said.

"We initially laughed when he told us that he wanted to kill Osama bin Laden," said Khan. But he said when officers seized the pistol, the sword and night-vision equipment, "our suspicion grew."

He was assigned a police guard, as is quite common for foreigners visiting remote parts of Pakistan. When he checked out without informing police, officers began hunting for him, said Khan.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 15 Jun 2010 17:39

Vashishtha wrote:Thw worst case scenario for india is probably clock 5. The moment ISI loses control of let,huji...etc terrorist attacks will rain in india and since ISI is no longer in control of these groups they will wash their hands of any attack. Neither will the group give a shit about paksitan's image as a 'terrorist country' as long they are carrying out jeehard which cant be controlled like a valve . What I mean to say is that both isi and terrorist group will gain some sort of an 'immunity' from indian dossiers.

I disagree. The only reason LET JEM can plan parliament, akshardham & mumbai type attacks is because it has support from ISI. All these attacks needs huge level of planning and homework. They had headley and other assets they groomed and used to prepare all the ground work that kasab & his partners could use. If ISI is gone all these bunnies would come crashing down. Remember all these bunnies get Paki Rs 10000 / month for their services which is the biggest motivator for these guys to stick around. with ISI gone the hawala as well as state patronage dries up no money and no motivation for jihad fi sabillalah left. Even if few self financed faisal sehzad types show up on the scene they will be staring at the wrong end of INSAS.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 15 Jun 2010 17:41

shiv wrote:I have a few more thoughts flashing in my mind that I would like to express and hopefully I can put them down exactly as I feel them.

Long long ago a Pakistani came to BRF (possibly before Kargil) and stated that peace and reconciliation are desirable but that India must do something for Pakistanis to "save face and maintain echandee" (my words, not his). Most Packee watchers on here would have observed similar suggestions coming from other Packees in the media - that India needs to be a "big brother", be "magnanimous" etc. Such ideas are usually met with the contempt they deserve given the nature of the obnoxious obstreperous Pakbarian.

My recent interaction with Paki "liberals" makes me feel that there are a bunch of Paquis who are beginning to "smell the coffee" and asking whether or not their (abomi-)nation is headed up shit creek. While interacting with them I pointed out what everyone on BRF knows. I pointed out that what Pakistan has done is to hate India so much that they have landed in America's lap and are now being made to do the US's job. I also pointed out that this is not new - and that Pakis have enslaved themselves to the US right from the 60s. Pakliberals have not sussed this out yet. No point in talking about how confused they are. (If they are not confused they are insincere and doing taqiya). But the hatred of the US in Pakistan indicates that there is some rudimentary thought process among Pakbarians - call it gut feeling or butt feeling.

This puts Pakiland in an interesting situation. They are welcome to hate the US and hate India too. That will make them allies of the Talbunnnies and their pigpenpals. If the Paki mango Abdul votes (using his extra disposable sons and zakat) firmly in favor of Talibunnies, then the American plans will be toast, and an Islamic Talibaniac government will take over Pakistan. US aid is unlikely to be accepted or continued to a Talibaniac government.

Currently only two things are holding back a Talibaniac government in Pakistan. One is that part of the Paki army that is fighting for the Americans, and the second is what Paki liberals and dollar beggars keep on saying - i.e "Only 11.8874647393065497346 % of Pakis support Islamic parties. The rest of us are moderate"

If Pakistan is genuinely "moderate" and does not want a Talibaniac government, then hostility against India and the US are unsustainable (assuming some coordination and cooperation between India and the US). Pakistan will get crushed between India and the US.

Now just think. How can Pakistanis water down hatred of India among mango Abduls? All these years they have been howling "Kaaaashmeeeeeeeer!!!7000000000000 raping troops. Pregnant Muslim bellies being ripped open. Jeeehaaaaaaardddd!" How can they now suddenly turn around and tell Mango Abdul. All is well. No more need for war with India. Mango Abduul will say "Bugger off. Where the faq is Kashmir?"

This is what Pakis are anticipating when the say India must "give something to Pakistan as "big brother"". In order to pacify Abdul who is rabidly anti-India Paquis will be required to shiow some nominal victory so that they can say "India has relented. We have won. Now we can have peace"

I believe that both India and the US believe that a game can be played in this way - by "giving in" at least in words - "make borders irrelevant" etc. Two comments here

1) I hate it. i would rather see Taliban take over Pakistan
2) GoI does not seem to see it this way. They too seem to want the moderates of Pakstan (if any) to "win" and are willing to play a game.

Astute summary of the situation Shiv.

Pakistan's logical evolution is towards a Talibunny state. Mango Abdul is no fool, he is not going to fall for a pretend-surrender by India which will prop up the "enlightened moderates." It will have to be a real one. GoI plus the establishment in India is, as you say not clued into this dynamic.

It is worth asking why. intellectually GoI can't possibly be that stupid--if we can figure TSP out, they can too. That means the problem is psychological, and mythological--myth as in that which shapes the collective imagination, per Joseph Campbell, not myth as in lie. I have a theory, and this is about pre-partition India, so may be OT but here goes.

The problem is Delhi. Not Delhi as in the capital of free India, but Delhi the physical location and state of mind. It is a state of mind that is peopled by memes of Partition trauma survivors subconsciously hankering for a return to the days in ancestral history when everything was good and all right. It is a state of mind of the petty rajah / courtier that still retains memories of vassalhood to the Mughalais which was "all right", so while this Delhi may subconsciously understand the logical culmination of appeasing the Talibunnies in the name of giving h&d to the "enlightened moderates" is real and total surrender, it also feels that there is nothing wrong in it, it will be a kind of return to an idyllic childhood so to speak.

it is also a Delhi peopled by a JNU-style progressive Muslim-Marxist nexus. This Delhi has worked out a kind of Marxist justification for the surrender. My sense of it is a bit messy, but approximately it would apply a kind of subaltern theory to Pakistan vis-a-vis India, and "give space" to the subaltern. This is the famous gujral doctrine. It also follows that the elevation of the subaltern doctrine over the alleged mainstream doctrine ("casteist Hindu fascism") is an integral element of bringing about the dictatorship of the proletariat.

If this theory has any kind of connection to reality, the answer for us becomes a kind of non-Delhite majority coup against the Delhi state. Incidentally I am also thinking this theory of mine explains the complete elision of Narasimha Rao from the Congress Party narrative, as no doubt PVNR represented exactly this kind of alternative to this Delhi I am talking about.

This Delhi, in the shape of the Congress Party, has also created for itself a replica of the Mughalai court in the shape of the Sonia Gandhi court. The emperor / empress is a shadowy but all-powerful presence behind the zenana curtain, and flunkies carry out unwritten royal firmans communicated with an inclination of the head, whose rationale is completely opaque.

perhaps we can also start to understand Narendra Modi, Nagpur-based RSS etc., as representing a non-Delhi alternative rather than the traditional "defenders of Hinduism" which doesn't really make much sense anyway. It seems then the Gujarat violence of '02 would be a part of this lot working out what to do about the Muslims. Violence or suppression is not sustainable in a democracy and inconsistent with a stable system. There would need to be a dialogue of which Muslims are a part. The Kalamite nationalist Muslim outlook is one element of a solution.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Jun 2010 18:18

^^^ excerpt of Kalamite outlook:

I am one of those who considers the present chapter of communal bitterness and differences as a transient phase in Indian life. I firmly hold that they will disappear when India assumes the responsibility of her own destiny. I am reminded of a saying of Mr. Gladstone that the best cure for a man's fear of the water was to throw him into it. Similarly India must assume responsibilities and administer her own affairs before fears and suspicions can be fully allayed.

When India attains her destiny, she will forget the chapter of communal suspicion and conflict and face the problems of modern life from a modern point of view. Differences will no doubt persist, but they will be economic, not communal. Opposition among political parties will continue, but it will be based, not on religion but on economic and political issues. Class and not community will be the basis of future alignments, and policies will be shaped accordingly.

IMO, the creation of Pakistan has delayed the closing of the chapter of communal suspicion and conflict. The question is where does India stand in 2010? Is the happy situation described above closer to happening?

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 15 Jun 2010 18:33

shiv wrote: US aid is unlikely to be accepted or continued to a Talibaniac government.

Based on recent history, I would not call that unlikely.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 15 Jun 2010 18:41

Altair wrote:
ramana wrote:Looks like Ms Rao's statement is being understood now. Thats Sarkari position.
ramana garu
Why cant She include "Aksai chin"? If she can make borders irrelevant why not include that part of Kashmir which was "gifted" to China.
That area is part of Kashmir and must be included in any talks about Kashmir with Pakistan.

Aksai Chin was not gifted to China. They occupied it illegally and India was unable to dislodge them (I don't think we even tried). Pakistan had nothing to do with it.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Jun 2010 18:53

shiv,

My recent interaction with Paki "liberals" makes me feel that there are a bunch of Paquis who are beginning to "smell the coffee" and asking whether or not their (abomi-)nation is headed up shit creek.

Their solution is to rewrite history and claim that Jinnah never wanted Partition but was forced into it. The corollary is that Islam played no part in the creation of Pakistan and was not intended to play a role in Pakistani politics.

In the meantime, public opinion polls in 2007 and 2008 show that 70+% of Pakistanis think it is very important or somewhat important that Shariat be implemented (roughly equally divided between very important and somewhat important), and a 2009 poll shows that 78% of Pakistanis believe that a Muslim who leaves Islam should be subject to the death penalty. Far cry from the August 11, 1947 words of Jinnah of the state where Hindu would cease to be Hindu and Muslim would cease to be Muslim as far as the state is concerned - religion would not be a concern of the state.

The liberal solution seems to be to say to Pakistanis, wait, wait, you got it all wrong, your opinion is irrelevant, roll back 63 years of history and go back to what Jinnah said on August 11, 1947. Since Pakistanis are not obeying the peaceful pronunciations of the Prophet, why would they start paying heed to a mere mortal like Jinnah? This is not explained.

The other possible corollary may be derived from that Ali Sethi article that appeared in the New York Times. He writes that Pakistan was a bluff, really all the Muslim League wanted is safeguards for Muslims in an undivided India; instead their bluff got called, and they received this truncated Pakistan like a punishment (punishment is his words). That seems to imply that "we Pakistanis are a victim of your stupidity and have been punished for 60+ years, you owe us something. Gimme, gimme, gimme!".

What a contrast to Maulana Azad, who whatever his faults, nevertheless took the notion of being responsible seriously. Repeating the quote, but it is worth repeating and holding up in contrast to Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

I am one of those who considers the present chapter of communal bitterness and differences as a transient phase in Indian life. I firmly hold that they will disappear when India assumes the responsibility of her own destiny. I am reminded of a saying of Mr. Gladstone that the best cure for a man's fear of the water was to throw him into it. Similarly India must assume responsibilities and administer her own affairs before fears and suspicions can be fully allayed.

When India attains her destiny, she will forget the chapter of communal suspicion and conflict and face the problems of modern life from a modern point of view. Differences will no doubt persist, but they will be economic, not communal. Opposition among political parties will continue, but it will be based, not on religion but on economic and political issues. Class and not community will be the basis of future alignments, and policies will be shaped accordingly.

PS: I'm just thinking - what a miserable failure the Pakistani liberals make out their hero, Jinnah, to be, if we buy their theories.

This articulate, brilliant lawyer did not succeed in making any British or Congress people understand what he was really after; nor did he make it clear to the Muslim League or to the Muslims at large. Only rummaging through the archives finding obscure quotes do we find out what Jinnah really wanted. What a failure! I really think the Great Leader is really the Great Prisoner of these liberals.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Jun 2010 19:40

Vashishtha wrote:reminded of my grade 10 economic text which used to say that per capita income is not an accurate indicator of the country's progress since it is not evenly distributed.

Fine, look at the HDI then.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 15 Jun 2010 19:55

I agree Paki elities have been working hard to paint jinnah as secular & progressive at the same time lamenting that he died too early for pakistan and did not leave any blue print of his roadmap towards future of his moth eaten pakistan.

Now what they convinently hide is the fact that jinnah was schizophrenic at the best when he was speaking. So when he wore suit & tie he would sing eulogies about secularism. When he wore his sherwani to incite the pathani clad abduls he would talk of how Islam was in danger and only direct action can save the momeens. So while like of Adeshir Cowasjee do not get tired posting the August 1947 speech of you are free to go to your temples. Like of Zaid Kazzab Hamid will post a speech given in State Bank of Pakistan where he said that shariah and islamic principles are answer to western capitalism. Now IMHO both are right partially because both are quoting jinnah verbitim. But the problem is the whole picture will only emerge when your juxtapose both these sentences and try to find the meaning and you realize that both sentences negate each other.

This brings me to the second point that jinnah did not leave a vision for future paki leaders. The reason he did not leave a vision is because he simply did not have one. He was a reckless poker player who over played his hand and landed with a country that had absolute no ideology nor did it have the sufficient trained manpower to run the affairs. To its credit it did inherit world class infrastructure (by third world standards ofcourse) in agriculture, military & education though it lost most of its educated & merchant class in partition violence. So the best they could do was what a person in lot of pain does for immediate releif he takes morphene. Now Morphene is a pain killer it kills the pain but does not treat the cause of pain. Pakis used US dollars and Anti India propoganda as morphene to hide the pain that mango abduls would otherwise have felt as aftermath of partition. next they added LSD Ecstasy pills to the dosage so that not only the pain is lost they get a false sense of euphoria. This came with Afghan & then Indian jehad that they launched and Zia's Islamization of pakistan army & education along with madarsa's.

Slowly these chemicals are wearing down and the cost of procuring them is getting steeper and steepr for mango abduls with governemnt supply dwindling and withdrawl symptoms getting stronger we see TTP like phenomenon propping up every where.

To summarize it if Indian govt thinks it can help elite WKK pakis by strengthening then to over come this tide then again we are applying a handy plast to a gushing wound. Pakis need to operate and remove this islamic tumor form their body no amount of gifts or sweet talk is going to take care of the cancer that they are living with.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Jun 2010 19:59

vera_k wrote:
Vashishtha wrote:reminded of my grade 10 economic text which used to say that per capita income is not an accurate indicator of the country's progress since it is not evenly distributed.
Fine, look at the HDI then.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2009_EN_Summary.pdf
The 2009 report uses the 2007 figures.

India has a HDI of 0.612, 134th in the world.
Pakistan has a HDI of 0.572, 141st in the world.

India should be comparing itself to China, which has a HDI of 0.772, ranked 92nd in the world.

In the 1991 report
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr_1991_e ... ators1.pdf

India was at 0.308, Pakistan at 0.311 and China at 0.614.

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 15 Jun 2010 20:21

X Posted from the Afghanistan thread.

Indian cos, Rio, BHP keen on developing Afghan mines

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... s/98041/on

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 15 Jun 2010 20:24

A_Gupta wrote:
vera_k wrote:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2009_EN_Summary.pdf
The 2009 report uses the 2007 figures.

India has a HDI of 0.612, 134th in the world.
Pakistan has a HDI of 0.572, 141st in the world.

India should be comparing itself to China, which has a HDI of 0.772, ranked 92nd in the world.

You should thank Bihar and UP for those figure who have a combined population of roughly 200 million and per capita gdp of 400 $.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2010 20:26

SSridhar wrote: The brave punjabi Taliban possibly think that they can simply go ahead and do what they did before and victory will be eventually theirs. They may not have the entire PA/ISI/Politicians supporting them but they have significant collaborators. They get funds from diverse sources and have tentacles into western countries like Headley, Rana et al. Besides, they have Allah on their side. It is my guess that their influence extends up to middle level officers in the Pakistani armed forces. The recruitment nowadays comes from diverse sections of society and the influence of the Punjabi Taliban cannot be ruled out.

More sensible elements, like the Corps Commanders, senior officers and the RAPE are at variance with the above approach. They are not interested in world dominance and are just limited to the region, especially India. They know it is not so easy as the Punjabi Taliban think and they would need the arms from the US and China and the support of the other 1½ friends. So, they are up to the usual taqiya while consolidating the means to their objective.

IMO, this is clearly the understanding on which the American policies are based. Of course, from an Indian PoV, the above division hardly matters because we are at the receiving end in either case.

Sridhar - I believe American pressure is setting up a deep internal contradiction in Pakistan.

Who are the Taliban? They are all Muslim, many are Pakistani.

What do the Taliban want? They want kafir foreigners (the US) out. They want sharia.

Who are "moderate, non Taliban Paki abduls" They are Muslim. What do they want? They want sharia. The do not support America.

The US is paying the Paki army to fight the Taliban. Ironically "democracy" in Pakistan would probably get them exactly what the Taliban want - i.e US out and sharia in. So what the US is doing is making the Pakistan army work against public support. And as is clear to all on here - the Paki army is a very reluctant "partner"

How far can this go? I think there is no mystery if we just see what is unfolding before our eyes. The Paki army is not really killing any Taliban. They are not even showing huge caches of captured arms. Like scaring flies they are merely dispersing the Taliban to other areas.

Ultimately what his means is that there are areas of Pakistan under Paki army control where the US will be told "These areas are Taliban free". Other areas will be full of Taliban, and essentially out of Paki army control. The idea that the Paki army can control these areas any time if they really tried is wrong. They will not try. This means that there will be two countries in Pakistan. One Taliban controlled and one Paki army controlled.

In due course I would see the US relentlessly blasting the Taliban controlled areas, and piling on the "aid" into army controlled areas. But "Army controlled areas" will mean keeping Paki Abduls happy - i.e supporting the economy and keeping the army in its current position of strength in Pakistan despite the fact that Abduls want sharia and the US out. That means aid, and encouraging trade (as the US ambassador said)

India can upset this by fighting war and by not doing trade (helping Paki economy). But the US has to give India something in turn. I suspect that will be pressure on Pakistan to stop terrorism and make peace.

If the US prevails, I believe Pakistan will split into rump Pakistan and Talibanistan. I believe India could give this conditional support, but the conditions are for some other time. If the US fails, the Taliban will win. For India that will be like the old days. In the long term - for Pakis the choice seems to be Taliban rule, or long term US occupation, or eventual peace (and trade) with India and a semblance of sovereignty without aid handouts.

Just some thoughts and guesswork based on what I think I see happening.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 15 Jun 2010 20:27

Shivs comment re Pakistan now caught in US dependency because of hate-India is very similar to the observation by one Paki commentator (was it I-ass?) year or two ago, that TSP has printed and issued so many India cards, that everyone is playing them against TSP itself or something to that effect...

But can TSP declare those anti-India cards invalid all of a sudden? What can India throw as crumbs to enable her to do so?

The point is they have to be 'crumbs' - anything more, instead of invalidating existing cards, it will only encourage TSP to print more cards...and embolden the talibunnies...

I agree it may not be a bad idea for TSP to be taken over by Taliban. As it is, whole of TSPA, civilian govt., Taliban etc., are anti-India. Only Taliban has the capability of being anti-west too. That puts the TSP problem squarely in the lap of the west which saves us a lot of bodies, $$$ to solve...

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 15 Jun 2010 20:37

Vashishtha wrote:Thw worst case scenario for india is probably clock 5. The moment ISI loses control of let,huji...etc terrorist attacks will rain in india and since ISI is no longer in control of these groups they will wash their hands of any attack. Neither will the group give a shit about paksitan's image as a 'terrorist country' as long they are carrying out jeehard which cant be controlled like a valve . What I mean to say is that both isi and terrorist group will gain some sort of an 'immunity' from indian dossiers.

Please, this is BR, not DDM or CNN or Fox or some western rag that only prints what is in their national interest. To suggest that LET etc are loose cannons is to betray common sense. LET and others arrayed against India are para military wings of TSPA/ISI. They are Isalmic foot soldiers indolctrinated with hatred ready to sacrifice themselevs upon orders and plans devised from Rawilpindi GHQ. They are crucial, please listen, crucial assets in TSP's India strategy. Without these suicidal scum, 1000s and 1000s at that, putting India on tentehooks, TSP is finished as a country. Without TSPA/ISI providing detailed plans, logistic support, money, and most imporatntly cultivating local assets within India itself, the LET pigs can be hunted down like wild dogs that they are, What makes it difficult for India is the state sponsorhip.