Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Viv S]

i would like to believe that VKS has not given " I accept that for all practical purpose, hitherto and henceforth, my actual DoB is ...May1950". he probably would have polished it enough to leave it to the interpretation of the reader or "the extractor"

Well it needed to be decisive enough for MS to forward onto the MoD as a final resolution to the disparity in records, so I have my doubts. That said, I hope you're right and that the letter did not contain any commitment by the general.

[nelson]

If and when the officer was arm-twisted, he should have gone to court right away.

Agreed wonder why any one wouldnt do that after taking the first promotion under duress and wouldnt be worried that the second one could end up in the same way ( which it did ) and go to court to reconcile with correct DOB , he would have been aware having 2 DOB floating in some official record would end up with some kind of stale mate during end of his tenure.

So to put it on record he had 3 opportunities to approach the court the first time , the second time and 3rd time when i suppose he became the chief , One opportunity is good enough for any one to know where he stands and what are the pitfalls.

you have to know and understand the hierarchy of the Army to find 'why?'.
there is no point in running around corridors of power and justice to finally earn a pension of four star General when there is always the opportunity of becoming one in flesh and blood.
there were opportunities to approach court with a case of perceived mal-intent to cut short his tenure as COAS. that case would have had little substance. the court would have declined to entertain his plea on the grounds that his perceptions have little basis. only after the warning order for his retirement was issued in May 2011 that he had proof of the mal-intent. then, he had to exhaust the departmental channels before knocking the doors of court, which he did. now i think he is ready for the court.

[chaanakya]

One can change their name, religion or even gender but change the date of birth???

How is it possible??

No one is saying his actual date of birth has changed to 1950. The issue is that he gave a written undertaking accepting a faulty record, that he technically speaking shouldn't have.

What was the interest in asking VKS to accept 1950 as maintained by MS branch and not 1951 as reflected in Certificates and documents and AG branch and considered for all his promotions except COAS? Isnt MS branch responsible for transfers/ACRs and Promotions. Whether the officer asking VKS to give undertaking?? etc had the sanctions of MOD to do so or did he do it on his own. In service matters , the most he could have done is to ask VKS to give proof for his actual date of birth when two sets of records existed within Army record keeping itself. Letter from Bimal Julka was refereed to long back in this thread. The new letter from Military Secy Mr Nair should have settled the matter but why it was subsequently raised by another MS and on whose authority?? Why MOD did not consider Gen Nair letter as conclusive. What was the compulsion to seek Law ministry opinion. When Law ministry gave one opinion why was it not accepted? What was the need to ask Vahanavati to give opinion. he is under cloud for giving allegedly dubious opinion in @G case and his opinion does not inspire confidence. Why Govt accepted that opinion ignoring all facts and opinion to the contrary. Because it suited someone.

[Viv S]

What was the interest in asking VKS to accept 1950 as maintained by MS branch and not 1951 as reflected in Certificates and documents and AG branch and considered for all his promotions except COAS? Isnt MS branch responsible for transfers/ACRs and Promotions.

That call was made by the MS, the MoD simply asked for a clarification.

Whether the officer asking VKS to give undertaking?? etc had the sanctions of MOD to do so or did he do it on his own. In service matters , the most he could have done is to ask VKS to give proof for his actual date of birth when two sets of records existed within Army record keeping itself.

I am the last person to dispute the fact that the undertaking accepting his DoB as 1950, should not have been asked of Gen VK Singh. But it was a request/demand that the general should not have acquiesced to either. And once he did so (with an appointment as an army commander presumably being at stake), I'm not surprised that the MoD is holding him to it.

[chetak]

What was the interest in asking VKS to accept 1950 as maintained by MS branch and not 1951 as reflected in Certificates and documents and AG branch and considered for all his promotions except COAS? Isnt MS branch responsible for transfers/ACRs and Promotions.

That call was made by the MS, the MoD simply asked for a clarification.

Whether the officer asking VKS to give undertaking?? etc had the sanctions of MOD to do so or did he do it on his own. In service matters , the most he could have done is to ask VKS to give proof for his actual date of birth when two sets of records existed within Army record keeping itself.

I am the last person to dispute the fact that the undertaking accepting his DoB as 1950, should not have been asked of Gen VK Singh. But it was a request/demand that the general should not have acquiesced to either. And once he did so (with an appointment as an army commander presumably being at stake), I'm not surprised that the MoD is holding him to it.

Such pressures can only be exerted by the active concurrence of the then chief.

The matter was relatively dormant for many years before that, more or less having been seen as settled. That is was raked up at all will reveal the source and the motivation.

cui bono?? and cui prodest?? are the questions to be asked. (as different individuals are seemingly involved)

[nelson]

I repeat the question and try to answer it myself .
"what is the consideration, for which the then COAS and MS extracted such assurances from VKS?"
There was no other consideration to be expected from the PM (political masters) except for a post retirement benefit in the form of say Governorship or an appointment equal to the Cabinet Minister of central govt. Unfortunately it failed because of L'Affaire de Sukna.

That call was made by the MS, the MoD simply asked for a clarification.
.
.
I am the last person to dispute the fact that the undertaking accepting his DoB as 1950, should not have been asked of Gen VK Singh. But it was a request/demand that the general should not have acquiesced to either. And once he did so (with an appointment as an army commander presumably being at stake), I'm not surprised that the MoD is holding him to it.

I am also not surprised. If we connect the dots it can be made out that, even though the assurance was asked for by MS and given to COAS, the actual requirement of that 'undertaking' was that of the MoD and thereby the PM (political masters). Hence MoD holding him to it is expected. All this and more will be exposed in due course. Whether in the court of law or in memoirs of VKS, we will get to know in a short while.

[eklavya]

One can change their name, religion or even gender but change the date of birth???

How is it possible??

No one is saying his actual date of birth has changed to 1950. The issue is that he gave a written undertaking accepting a faulty record, that he technically speaking shouldn't have.

This is a clear case of VKS being bullied to accept something that is not true. He was threatened with "appropriate action". If he had stood his ground then, he would have simply been sidelined then and there. It is good that he accepted an injustice temporarily to give himself a chance of proving his case later.

So, let the Supreme Court decide whether VKS sealed his fate with the letter he wrote under duress, or whether there is another/better standard of justice in the country. It is against all standards of natural justice that untrue statements made under duress are treated as binding. Justice demands that any statement made under duress is dis-regarded.

Why was VKS being bullied to accept 1950? Who stood to benefit?

Why is the Government so reluctant to see this issue in court? Its just a simple administrative matter of resolving a date of birth. If the court decides against VKS, he will accept it. Why is the Government reluctant to see this matter adjudicated in a free and fair manner.

[Viv S]

Such pressures can only be exerted by the active concurrence of the then chief.

Assuming that the chief wanted to 'sort out' Gen VK Singh in collusion with the MS, how did Gen VK Singh get appointed as Eastern Army Commander?

The smart money says that it was simply a case of the MS administratively having screwed up, in an attempt to cover its rear end, got the officer to accept the faulty record.

I am also not surprised. If we connect the dotted lines it can be made out that, even though the assurance was asked for by MS and given to COAS, the actual requirement of that 'undertaking' was that of the MoD and thereby the PM (political masters). Hence MoD holding him to it is expected. All this and more will be exposed in due course. Whether in the court of law or in memoirs of VKS, we will get to know in a short while.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Was the GoI/MoD annoyed with Gen VK Singh's firm action in Sukna case? Why did the defence minister then overrule the COAS and order court martial proceedings against the individuals in question? And why was Gen VK Singh thereafter appointed the successor to the COAS?

All in all, a retribution exercised by 'stripping' the general of a mere 10 months of additional service as COAS seems ... rather mild.

Personally, I think the defence minister simply examined the facts of case and in keeping with his 'corruption-free persona' decided on a course of action that precluded him from being accused by anyone of favouritism.

[nelson]

^ but you see, AKA is not the final master. he is also a person looking for a 'Presidentship' rather than a 'Governorship'.

All i am saying is, the then COAS (two in number) and their MS played up this age controversy to facilitate a particular person to become COAS down the line, because the PM(then and now) wanted it.

[eklavya]

ViV S,

VKS as Chief was convenient/elegant provided he packed-up in May 2012. Given government concerns about being seen to be clean, fair, etc. and given the background of Adarsh, etc. acting against VKS because of the inquiry he conducted in the Sukhna case would have made the government look very bad.

I don't believe in the balls-up theory. Balls-ups can be corrected without any repercussion on the MS, especially in this case as 1951 is supported by overwhelming documentary evidence.

[Viv S]

^ but you see, AKA is not the final master. he is also a person looking for a 'Presidentship' rather than a 'Governorship'.

All i am saying is, the then COAS (two in number) and their MS played up this age controversy to facilitate a particular person to become COAS down the line, because the PM(then and now) wanted it.

That kind of thing is easy to claim but exceedingly hard to prove (or disprove for that matter), because it is far from given that the govt's actions would have been different if the most likely successor to the COAS was another individual.

[Viv S]

ViV S,

VKS as Chief was convenient/elegant provided he packed-up in May 2012. Given government concerns about being seen to be clean, fair, etc. and given the background of Adarsh, etc. acting against VKS because of the inquiry he conducted in the Sukhna case would have made the government look very bad.

Except that the defence minister overruled the COAS when he ordered the court martial in the Sukna case. And Gen VK Singh was chosen from a pool of several senior officers, that is to say, he wasn't the heir apparent to the position.

I don't believe in the balls-up theory. Balls-ups can be corrected without any repercussion on the MS, especially in this case as 1951 is supported by overwhelming documentary evidence.

Its the simplest and most likely explanation. I doubt if anyone was forecasting at that stage that his posting to Kolkata would be followed by one to New Delhi.

[eklavya]

ViV S,

VKS as Chief was convenient/elegant provided he packed-up in May 2012. Given government concerns about being seen to be clean, fair, etc. and given the background of Adarsh, etc. acting against VKS because of the inquiry he conducted in the Sukhna case would have made the government look very bad.

Except that the defence minister overruled the COAS when he ordered the court martial in the Sukna case. And Gen VK Singh was chosen from a pool of several senior officers, that is to say, he wasn't the heir apparent to the position.

I don't believe in the balls-up theory. Balls-ups can be corrected without any repercussion on the MS, especially in this case as 1951 is supported by overwhelming documentary evidence.

Its the simplest and most likely explanation. I doubt if anyone was forecasting at that stage that his posting to Kolkata would be followed by one to New Delhi.

Viv S,

VKS was the heir-apparent. In the vast majority of cases, the senior-most serving 3-star at the time of the retirement of the 4-star gets the Chief's job.

Given dates-of-births are known, etc the "line of succession" can be predicted quite far in the future (subject to natural factors (nobody dies!), rule changes (e.g. the 2y extension that came in during 1998), and the careers of predecessors remaining on track).

When VKS became a 3-star, it was pretty clear (odds-on, as they say) that he was heading for 4-star.

It is because the line of succession is predictable, that it is also manipulable and indeed manipulated i.e. if person X who is due to retire by date A becomes Chief, then person Y will be senior most at the time of X's retirement, etc.

I am aware of a case when a certain officer was made a Chief (that officer should arguably have retired on the same day as the preceding chief) because that was the only way another officer (down the line, and very well connected) could have been eligible to be the next Chief. The shenanigans that go on for the Chief's job are very unpleasant and politicians/bureaucrats unfortunately sometimes (not always) get involved.

The Raksha Mantri did indeed have to order Gen. DK to take action in the Sukhna case. Made the RM look clean, fair, etc. In which case, why doesn't the RM uphold truth and justice once more? Let it go to the Supreme Court. Or, is the RM facing pressure of his own?

[Viv S]

VKS was the heir-apparent. In the vast majority of cases, the senior-most serving 3-star at the time of the retirement of the 4-star gets the Chief's job.

Given dates-of-births are known, etc the "line of succession" can be predicted quite far in the future (subject to natural factors (nobody dies!), rule changes (e.g. the 2y extension that came in during 1998), and the careers of predecessors remaining on track).

When VKS became a 3-star, it was pretty clear (odds-on, as they say) that he was heading for 4-star.

He became a three star general as a corps commander not army commander. He could have been blocked at an earlier stage.

It is because the line of succession is predictable, that it is also manipulable and indeed manipulated i.e. if person X who is due to retire by date A becomes Chief, then person Y will be senior most at the time of X's retirement, etc.

So they conspired to rob him of 10 months of service, long long before he became COAS? Doubt it.

The Raksha Mantri did indeed have to order Gen. DK to take action in the Sukhna case. Made the RM look clean, fair, etc. In which case, why doesn't the RM uphold truth and justice once more? Let it go to the Supreme Court. Or, is the RM facing pressure of his own?

It doesn't matter whether he took actions that he did because he wanted to conduct himself cleanly or only wanted to project a clean image. One will never know unless you can read his mind. Regardless of the motivation, the consequences for the country remain the same.

Coming to the court case, the defence ministry cannot prevent the general from exercising his legal rights. Though however it turns out, it will reflect poorly on the govt. and the Army.

At the same time, I'm not so sure the govt. has a weak legal case - for one the argument about the undertaking being extracting under duress may not be legally admissible and secondly the govt. still retains the constitutional right to appoint the COAS and relieve him of his command. Even assuming that Gen VK Singh wins the case, I'm not sure what he'd be granted aside from a lump sum amount equaling half year's pay and I suppose the personal satisfaction of being proven right.

[eklavya]

He became a three star general as a corps commander not army commander. He could have been blocked at an earlier stage.

They did not want to block him, they did not mind if he becomes Chief provided he retires by May 2012.

If they had written him off, the next in line may well have served for "too long", making it impossible for their preferred successor to VKS to take over. After all, how many officers could they have written off until they found an officer with the "convenient" date of birth.

In any case, trying to write off an officer (or indeed many officers) also carries risks, is not always successful, and can get very messy. Here they knew about the 50/51 issue, and decided to use it as an elegant way to manipulate the line of succession.

So they conspired to rob him of 10 months of service, long long before he became COAS? Doubt it.

That is indeed what they did. They could hardly have changed his date of birth after he became army chief. It had to be done well in advance.

Coming to the court case, the defence ministry cannot prevent the general from exercising his legal rights. Though however it turns out, it will reflect poorly on the govt. and the Army.

At the same time, I'm not so sure the govt. has a weak legal case - for one the argument about the undertaking being extracting under duress may not be legally admissible and secondly the govt. still retains the constitutional right to appoint the COAS and relieve him of his command. Even assuming that Gen VK Singh wins the case, I'm not sure what he'd be granted aside from a lump sum amount equaling half year's pay and I suppose the personal satisfaction of being proven right.

Yes, let the courts decide who has the better case.

And yes, the Government can fire the army chief even tomorrow, or indeed even after he wins the court case.

The public is also watching, and has an interest in highly motivated well-run armed forces. If the government chooses to mistreat the army chief and demoralise the armed forces, then the public will also react.

VKS has nothing to loose by fighting this case. It is good that he is fighting for truth, honour and justice.

Who/what/why is the Government fighting for?

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army provides medical aid to cold affected Kashmir Valley residents

[merlin]

Who/what/why is the Government fighting for?

My answer would be - not for this country.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army marks Silver Jubilee of Sailing Expedition Around the World on Yacht Trishna

[chaanakya]

^ but you see, AKA is not the final master. he is also a person looking for a 'Presidentship' rather than a 'Governorship'.

All i am saying is, the then COAS (two in number) and their MS played up this age controversy to facilitate a particular person to become COAS down the line, because the PM(then and now) wanted it.

That kind of thing is easy to claim but exceedingly hard to prove (or disprove for that matter), because it is far from given that the govt's actions would have been different if the most likely successor to the COAS was another individual.

It would have been different. Govt would have accepted letter of then MS Gen Nair and rested the matter. Mens Rea

[Sanku]

The chief MUST approach the court, it is not a personal matter -- it is the matter of his organization and national security now.

[chaanakya]

At the same time, I'm not so sure the govt. has a weak legal case - for one the argument about the undertaking being extracting under duress may not be legally admissible and secondly the govt. still retains the constitutional right to appoint the COAS and relieve him of his command. Even assuming that Gen VK Singh wins the case, I'm not sure what he'd be granted aside from a lump sum amount equaling half year's pay and I suppose the personal satisfaction of being proven right.

Govt has , indeed , weak case. That undertaking or whatever it was means zilch. Nobody doubts that Govt has constitutional right to appoint COAS or to remove it after due process. VKS was the seniormost Gen at the time of his selection with two years of service remaining. Hence the political dispensation wanted to look fair in appointing him perhaps remembering VB saga during NDA time. And yes even if VKS wins the case after being admitted into reirement, he would not be appointed or paid but rest assured UPA II would be deeply scarred and may be Babalog would have to take over to restore credibility? He should not leave it to mercy of ostensibly honest politicians , who have been known to lie to Parliament (123 and reply on age issue come to mind) and ask Court to decide.

[chetak]

Received by email

"A nostalgic Article from Pakistan

An interesting article regarding the social aspects of the officer corps of the erstwhile British era Indian Army. This one has been written by a Pakistani old-timer..for students of Military History.

Hamid Hussain

East India Company (EIC) army in India consisted of Indian soldiers known as sepoys and British officers. This arrangement continued when the Crown took direct control of Indian affairs in 1858. An intermediate cadre of Indian officers later known as Viceroy’s Commissioned Officers (VCOs) were a link between Indian soldiers and British officers, however even the senior most VCO was subordinate to the junior most British officer. First World War opened the doors for Indians in the officer corps of Indian army. However, only a small number of Indians were commissioned as officers and this trend continued until Second World War when large numbers of Indians were commissioned for an expanded Indian army to fulfill Imperial defence responsibilities all over the globe.

One the eve of First World War, the bulk of Indian army was recruited from northern India. This recruitment policy was based on then prevalent ‘Martial Race Theory’ suggesting that only certain races were good soldiers. Sikhs, Punjabi Muslims, Jats, Rajputs, Dogras, Gurkhas and Pathans were elevated to the martial races while inhabitants of South India and Bengal were considered Non-Martial.

Soldiers were mainly from rural background with very little or no education. When it was decided to open Indian army officer corps to Indians, British were faced with a dilemma. The more educated Indians from Bengal and south India had not been recruited for decades as they were considered ‘non-martial’. The preferred martial races were way behind in education and therefore not suitable for officer cadre. Now that officer ranks were grudgingly opened for India, the door was opened for non-martial Indians as they had the essential qualification of education.

Several factors contributed to grooming of those young Indian men from different religious and ethnic communities who decided to join Indian army as officers. The first Indians to be commissioned as officers belonged to Native Indian Land Forces (NILF) and Imperial Cadet Corps (ICC): an exclusive club for only scions of princely and aristocratic families. Majority of them faded away quickly and only a handful later reached higher ranks. It is interesting to note that the first batch of five Indians selected for training at Sandhurst in 1918 had only one candidate Sardar Madanjit Singh from Punjab; the home of Indian army. Syed Iskander Ali Mirza was from Bombay (he was descendent of Nawab family of Murshidabad in Bengal but was brought up by his mother in Bombay to keep him away from the court’s intrigues), Iqbal Ali Beg was from Madras while Tarun Kumar Sinha and Lolit Kumar Roy were from Bengal. Only one candidate Mirza was commissioned from this first batch. The batch of five commissioned in July 1921 consisted of two from Bombay (Kumar Shri Himatsinhji and Kumar Shri Rajendrasinhji) one each from Central India (Nawab Sarwar Ali Khan), Punjab (Daya Singh Bedi) and North West Frontier Province (Sahibzada Faiz Muhammad Khan). In view of many handicaps including a small number of vacancies allotted to Indians at Sandhurst, strict selection criteria, living far away from home, cost of education at Sandhurst and cultural adjustment resulted in a very small number of Indians graduating from Sandhurst and continuing a successful career in Indian army.

Experiences of these pioneers were quite diverse. Review of lives of few of these officers and their subsequent military career gives insight into the life of this first generation of Indian officers.

Some spent only a short career in the army while others made army their home ending their careers as senior officers in Indian and Pakistani armies. The first Indian graduate from Sandhurst Syed Iskander Ali Mirza was commissioned on July 16, 1920. Officers destined for Indian army spent their first year with a British battalion. Mirza was posted to Second Battalion of Scottish Rifles. He was the first Indian officer to serve with British on equal basis and this caused uproar in some circles. The issue caused a prolonged struggle among Indian army brass, Viceroy’s Army Council, War Office in London and Secretary of State of India. This dragged on for six months and finally Mirza was able to join the British battalion in January 1921. After a year with British battalion, Mirza joined his parent regiment 17th Poona Horse (he joined 33rd Cavalry but around the same time reorganization of Indian army was under way and 33rd Cavalry and 34th Cavalry were amalgamated to form 17th Poona Horse). He only remained with his regiment for four years and transferred to Indian Political Service (IPS) in August 1926. He later became Governor General and President of Pakistan.

Mirza Riaz Ali Baig had the unique background of combination of family military service and high education. He was from a respectable Hyderabad family. His grandfather served as a Rissaldar in Royal Deccan Horse. His father was an educated government servant and rose to become the first Indian to become Vice President of Council of India in London. He moved his family to London and Baig lived in England from 1910 to 1923 attending the prestigious Clifton school. He was selected for Sandhurst and after commission joined elite 16th Light Cavalry in 1925. For the first time in his life he experienced racial prejudice when he came close to British in military setting. He along with two other Indian officers (Faiz Muhammad Khan and Sheodat Singh) lived in a separate bungalow called ‘native quarters’. He resigned his commission in 1930. He was more of an intellectual bent and felt constrained by highly disciplined military life; however his personal unhappy experience in the army due to racial bias probably was the main reason for his resignation. Later, he served a long career in Indian diplomatic corps. Kumar Shri Rajendrasinhji was from the princely Jadeja family of Nawannagar. He joined the elite 2nd Lancers (Gardner’s Horse) and had a successful military career. He was the first Indian officer to win Distinguished Service Order (DSO) in Second World War. He ended his career as chief of Army Staff of Indian army.

One of the last batches of Indians trained at Sandhurst in 1932 (commissioned in January 1934) consisted of cadets selected from different backgrounds. Two were from princely states; Nawabzada Sher Ali Khan from Pataudi and Nawabzada Saleem Khan from Sachin state and three were representatives of traditional martial races; one Pushtun (Akbar Khan) and two Sikhs (Ajit Singh and Ghanshiam Singh). B. M. Kaul, Pran Nath Naranag, Rajendra Nath Nehra, Suryakant Kumar, Muhammad Abdul Latif Khan, Muhammad Usman and Shahid Hamid were representatives of newly empowered middle class in government service and no family history of military service.
British encouraged traditional elites including landlords, members of civil service, police and army to educate their children so that they could qualify for commission.

These classes were in service of the government for a long time and in return prospered under Imperial patronage. Members of these classes joining army as officers ensured continued loyalty of the Indian officer corps. This also diminished chances of subversion by newly emerging nationalist politics. In 1932, it was decided to start an Indian Military Academy to train officers in India and in December 1932, first batch of 40 cadets started their training. British authorities maintained a careful balance in the selection. Fifteen were selected by open competition, fifteen were selected from army ranks and ten were from state forces. The first batches of Indian Commissioned Officers (ICOs) faced discrimination even from fellow Indian officers who attended Sandhurst and known as King Commissioned Indian Officers (KCIOs).

In 1934, when two Sikh ICOs joined 3rd Cavalry there was a debate whether they should be allowed to eat in the mess. 3rd Cavalry was Indianized in 1932 and several KCIOs (Iftikhar Khan, Shahid Hamid, K. P. Dhargalkar, P. C. Banerjee, P. S. Nair, K. K. Varma and Nawabzada Agha Raza) were already serving in the regiment.

Indian officers own background and most importantly conduct of the Commanding Officer (CO) determined how well the Indian officer adjusted to his new role. A confident lad supported by a good CO was able to move on smoothly while a hesitant young man landing in a regiment with bad CO had lot of problems and that invariably affected his career.

Koodendera Subayya Thimayya (nick named Timmy) was a Coorg; a small tribal community in the hilly area of South India. Coorgs were considered a ‘Martial Race’ by British. He was one of the first Indian students educated at St. Joseph’s College at Coonoor and later he studied at Bishop Cotton’s school in Bangalore. He attended Military College at Dehra Dun to prepare for Sandhurst. Indian cadets at Sandhurst had set their own rules to counter some of the handicaps and discriminations. The rules included giving double tips, always using expensive balcony seats at the theatre and not attending the grand ball at the academy just before commissioning (they were either unable to dance or not able to bring a girl for the dance). Thimayya broke the rule and became the first Indian to attend the ball. He spent his first year with 2nd Battalion of Highland Light Infantry (HLI). He was the first Indian with the Highlanders but they treated him with respect and his year with them was very pleasant. British officers introduced him into the exclusively British social circle and he interacted with British ladies. HLI officers didn’t know that Bangalore United Services Club was only for British and Indians were not allowed to be members. Timmy’s Commanding Officer Lt. Colonel Sir Robert Seagraves took his case to the Club Committee but was voted down. HLI officers decided to resign from the club but Timmy persuaded them not to do so. In fact, Timmy fared much better in HLI than other two English subalterns. After completing a year with HLI, Timmy was posted to his parent battalion 4/19 Hyderabad Regiment. Timmy’s CO Lieutenant Colonel Hamilton Britton was especially kind to Timmy and once told him, “Timmy, you’re the son I might have had’. Britton forced British exclusive Basra Club to allow membership to his Indian officers. Timmy’s wife Nina spent part of her childhood in France. She was pretty, educated, spoke fluent French and felt comfortable socializing with British. Timmy and Nina were fully accepted in British society because of their unique background and they in turn felt fully comfortable in British company. Timmy was the poster child of a successful Indian officer.

The experience of Captain Kunwar Daulat Singh was totally opposite. Daulat was a Rajput from the royal house of Kotah. He was commissioned in December 1919 from the Temporary School for Indian Cadets (TSIC). In 1927, he was the senior most Indian officer with 4/19 Hyderabad Regiment at the rank of Captain. He was a good soldier and intelligent man but had extreme negative views about British. British officers in turn were not very fond of him. He was not hesitant to confront fellow British officers at even the minor slight. He was conservative and religious and was observant of all religious rituals. After the day’s routine, he would change to dhoti (loin cloth) and always ate native food. His wife was with him in the cantonment but she was kept in purdah (not appearing in public without covering the face). He soon left the army or more correctly hounded out.

Experience of Shahid Hamid with 3rd Cavalry in 1934 is another example of how early experience set the stage. Shahid’s one year stint with British Regiment (Prince of Wales Volunteers) was very good. He got along with officers very well, played polo and on completion of his one year, his CO wrote in his report that if allowed he would like to keep this officer permanently. It was a British officer of 3rd Cavalry Harold Watkis who asked Shahid to join his regiment. In 1922 reorganization, 5th Cavalry and 8th Cavalry were amalgamated to form 3rd Cavalry. Officers of old regiments (all British) didn’t like each other and even a decade after amalgamation they sat on opposite sides of the table in mess. 3rd Cavalry was Indianized in 1932 and all British officers thought that this had diminished the prestige of the regiment thus creating a gulf between British and Indian officers. In the process of Indianization, several Indian officers from other regiments were posted to 3rd Cavalry (Iftikhar Khan from 7th Cavalry, K. K. Varma from 16th Cavalry and K. P. Dhargalkar from an infantry 4/12 Frontier Force Regiment). These Indian officers were not happy to leave their parent regiments. CO Colonel Julian D Wilton was not popular with all the officers. There was no camaraderie among officers and regimental bond was not strong. Shahid had not only problems with his CO but also with fellow British as well Indian officers. This was the main reason that he decided to transfer to Royal Indian Army Service Corps (RIASC).

Demands of Second World War opened the doors of Indian army wide for Indians. In five short years, nine thousand Indians were given emergency commission and these officers were called Indian Emergency Commissioned Officers (IECOs). In 1945, over seven thousand Indian officers were serving in combat arms while over eight thousand were serving in non-combat arms. Most of IECOs would have ended their careers at the end of the war but imminent departure of British and need for native officer corps for successor Indian and Pakistani states resulted in retention of many IECOs.

By the end of Second World War, there were three main categories of Indian officers; KCIOs, ICOs and IECOs. KCIOs considered themselves as elite and a select lot and some ridiculed ICOs as ‘Dehra Dun pansies’. Those officers who started their careers in the ranks were considered at the bottom of the social class of officers and even ridiculed by their brother ICOs. IECOs were also not considered equals by KCIOs and ICOs and generally viewed as being able to get into the army due to relaxation of all standards. IECOs only had six months of training before getting their commission. This was due to the necessity of rapid expansion of officer corps during Second World War.

Indian officer corps was not monolithic. Socially, Indian officers on the eve of independence can be subdivided into several categories:
1- Scions of Princely families i.e. General Rajendra Sinhji, Major General Nawabzada Sher Ali Khan Pataudi, Lieutenant General Sahibzada Yaqub Khan.
2- Young men from urban middle class families entering through open competition with no tradition of military service, i.e. General Yahya Khan.
3- Educated young men from mainly rural backgrounds with long tradition of military service. Most were sons of VCOs but they got their education before entering military academy, i.e. Field Marshal Ayub Khan, Lieutenant General Azam Khan, Major General Iftikhar Khan.
4- Men who served several years in the ranks before becoming officers. These men also had long family tradition of military service but had little education and were much older when they joined military academy. They were groomed at Kitchener College at Nowgong before entering Dehra Dun. This preparation helped them both in terms of education as well as refined them socially to ease their transition from soldiers to officers, i.e. General Musa Khan, General Tikka Khan.
5- Men from communities that had no tradition of military service and soldiers were not recruited from these communities. Major General Ishfakul Majid (an Assamese Muslim), Major General Shahid Hamid (a Muslim from Lucknow), Major General O.A. Mitha (member of Memon business community), Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw (member of Parsee business community).

All Indian officers were westernized to a certain extent due to the very nature of their profession as well as close association with British officers. It invariably had impact on the personal life as well as religious outlook of the officers. However, there were several shades of this westernization. Officers from rural and culturally conservative areas were westernized up to the limits of cantonments. They generally had simpler life style. On the other hand more Anglicized officers were as good as any British in their personal life in manners, dress and food.

Many religious and cultural taboos were broken by majority of officers. Thimayya was assigned to Muslim Ahir company of 4/19 Hyderabad Regiment. He learned Hindustani from his sepoys and ate their food. Mitha was assigned to Hindu Jat company of 2/4 Bombay Grenadiers. He mixed freely with his soldiers and ate their meals. In case of Muslims, some enjoyed their gin and soda in private and more discreetly (i.e. Ayub Khan) while others felt comfortable drinking publicly (i.e. Yahya Khan). Many Hindu officers broke the centuries old tradition of prohibition of consumption of meat. Musa Khan (6/13 Frontier Force Rifles) and B. M. Kaul (5/6 Rajputana Rifles) were friends from their subalterns days right up to independence in 1947. Both shared meals, something that could have horrified their parents. A deeply religious Muslim Musa sharing meal with a high caste Brahmin Kaul was not earth shattering in concept but was not common among general population of India. Many Hindu officers had Muslim batmen while Muslim officers had Hindu batmen cooking and serving meals that was almost unheard among general population. Decades after partition, a senior retired Pakistan army officer had some of his old Dehra Dun Hindu officers of Indian army as his guests in Pakistan. In deference to Hindu religious prohibitions, he had vegetarian meals arranged in one room and meat dishes were in another room. Looking at the all vegetarian dishes, his Hindu friends inquired about the meat stating that they had not come all the way from India to eat vegetables. They all went to the room where meat dishes were arranged and partook from the ‘forbidden’ to their heart’s content. A small percentage remained deeply religious in personal life even in their 20s (i.e. General Musa Khan, Lieutenant General Nathu Singh).

In case of female emancipation, there were two main factors; one female education and second leaving the segregation and participating in mixed gatherings. Majority of Indian army officers were instrumental in educating their female family members. Females of majority of Muslim households and Hindu Rajputs were restricted to homes. Some officers despite being personally westernized still preferred to keep their wives in ‘purdah’ (i.e. Nathu Singh, Ayub Khan). One reason may be that their wives were not literate and from conservative rural backgrounds making adjustment to a highly westernized military cantonment environment very difficult if not impossible.

During the Raj and for several decades after independence, army officers were high up on the social ladder and most desirable candidates for marriage. This provided an opportunity of breaking down of some social barriers and in some cases even religious barriers. Young officers from humbler backgrounds such as sons of soldiers predominantly from rural backgrounds and from urban lower middle class being the most desirable bachelors were sought by traditional aristocracy of landlords, nascent professional class and members of the Raj administration as well as princely states. We see many examples of wealthy landlords, highly educated aristocratic and professional families such as doctors marrying their daughters to young officers from humbler backgrounds. This helped in breaking many social especially caste taboos.

Some officers became thoroughly Anglicized due to their peculiar background of early education at convent schools in India (i.e. Thimayya) or education in England (Russi Bilimoria,
J. N. Chaudhri). Most of them were fully integrated in British company due to their manners and some like Thimayya became excellent dancers on the ballroom floor. Some officers completely identified with British and avoided anything ‘native’. They were sometimes called ‘Brindian’. Iftikhar Khan, J. N. Chaudhri and K. P. Dhargalkar were representatives of this class. Chaudhri when instructor at Staff College at Quetta didn’t interact with Indian officers or students. His wife Kukoo also kept a distance from natives. Their behavior was irritating for all other Indian officers and students and they resorted to boycott the couple.

On the other end of the spectrum, the world of officer corps was opened to the least educated and very conservative class of India. One example will show the enormous adjustment problem for both the Indian officers and their spouses of this class.

Gurbaksh Singh Dhillon enlisted as soldier and spent three years in an infantry battalion (4/14 Punjab Regiment). Light machine gun section of infantry battalions had mules for transport and every soldier was rotated to take care of the mules. Gurbaksh on his turn also performed this duty while his wife Basant helped him in polishing the mule saddle. Gurbaksh qualified for Dehra Dun and after successfully completing his training was commissioned as an officer in 1/14 Punjab Regiment. One can easily imagine the psychological barrier that Gurbaksh and his wife had to cross as the worlds of sepoy and officer were poles apart.

On the other hand, an officer from a princely family had interaction with British on a different social level. One example is of Nawabzada Sher Ali Khan Pataudi. As a child he visited Governor House where his family was guest of the governor and played with children of the governor. Such officers were more comfortable and had less adjustment problems.

One can easily visualize enormous adjustment problems for British officers. A British officer interacting with the sepoy Gurbaksh taking care of the battalion’s mule is now asked to accept him as brother officer and equal in the mess. The British officer was much more comfortable with scions of princely families like Rajendra Sinhji, Sher Ali Khan and Yaqub Khan as well as less blue blooded but more Anglicized officers like Chaudhri, Thimayya and Atiq ur Rahman.

Relationship with officers commissioned from the ranks such as Gurbaksh, Tikka Khan, Musa Khan was official but not very close in view of huge social gulf. It is to the credit of British officers that majority of them adjusted adequate enough for the Indian army to come out of the cauldron of Second World War with good reputation. Despite lingering racial prejudice in all other areas, army broke many racial barriers first. In most cases, if Indian officer was confident and social enough, he was generally well accepted by his British colleagues. On the other hand, sons of VCOs had only professional interaction with British and due to inhibitions on both Indian and British side had very little family interactions. However, it is quite obvious that the simple fact of British being the rulers and Indians as subjects was facing Indian officers of all classes at every corner.

Second World War was a catalyst for both rapid Indianization as well as smooth integration of the officer corps. Many factors such as large scale induction of British officers through emergency commissions with no or much less pre-conceived prejudices against Indians, British and Indian officers serving together in combat, good performance of many Indian officers in war and lead role played by C-in-C Field Marshal Claude Auchinleck in advancing Indian officers cause helped to integrate British and Indian officers in the army with very little friction.

The problem of adjustment persisted even after the departure of British and many struggled to bridge the gap. Sam Manekshaw caused uproar when he was commanding National Defence Services Staff College. He remarked that he will not allow any officer in the academy whose wife looked like an ‘aya’ (female servant). In 1947, Pakistan Military Academy was established at Kakul with a small staff. Two highly educated sisters from an aristocratic family of Bhopal were married to Deputy Commandant Colonel M. A. Latif (later Major General) and a company Commander Major Abid Bilgrami (later Major General). Commandant of the Academy Brigadier F. B. Ingall made sure that ladies club activities were all inclusive including wives who remained in ‘purdah’.

In case of Pakistan, a certain class difference existed even among second generation of officers. Sons of officers who joined army were brought up in an urban environment and educated in convent schools. Naturally they were comfortable speaking English and more modern in their outlook. On the other hand officers who were sons of Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs) had their early education and grooming in a rural environment. They were more conservative and not very outgoing. Sons of officers tend to be alumni of Cadet Colleges at Hassan Abdal and Kohat while the alma mater of sons of JCOs is Military College at Jehlum. There is some social gap between these two groups that exists even today. Some officers complain that present army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani has disproportionately promoted large number of officers to senior ranks that belong to his own alma mater Military College Jehlum.

The first generation of Indian officers had to cross many barriers but it also opened many doors that were closed to Indians of previous generation. There is no doubt that Indian army provided a unique opportunity to young Indian men from humbler backgrounds to break the social barrier. In case of India, a native of Madras P. P. Kumaramangalam and a Parsi Sam Manekshaw became army chiefs. Both belonged to the so called ‘Non-Martial races’; communities that did not prefer army as a profession and were excluded by British. In case of Pakistan, there is no way that Ayub Khan, son of Rissaldar Major Mir Dad Khan of Hodson Horse could have become President, Musa Khan, son of Subedar Yazdan Bakhsh of Hazara Pioneers and Azam Khan son of Rissaldar Major Muhammad Akram Khan of Hodson Horse could have become governors or Yahya Khan son of Deputy Superintendent of Police (DSP) Sadat Khan could have become army chief and President if it was not for the Indian army.

[chackojoseph]

Israeli company wins orders to supply electronic army fuses to Indian Army

[rohitvats]

Received by email

"A nostalgic Article from Pakistan

An interesting article regarding the social aspects of the officer corps of the erstwhile British era Indian Army. This one has been written by a Pakistani old-timer..for students of Military History.

Hamid Hussain

East India Company (EIC) army in India consisted of Indian soldiers known as sepoys and British officers. This arrangement continued when the Crown took direct control of Indian affairs in 1858. An intermediate cadre of Indian officers later known as Viceroy’s Commissioned Officers (VCOs) were a link between Indian soldiers and British officers, however even the senior most VCO was subordinate to the junior most British officer. First World War opened the doors for Indians in the officer corps of Indian army. However, only a small number of Indians were commissioned as officers and this trend continued until Second World War when large numbers of Indians were commissioned for an expanded Indian army to fulfill Imperial defence responsibilities all over the globe.

Many thanks. Excellent article.

[chetak]

Received by email

"A nostalgic Article from Pakistan

An interesting article regarding the social aspects of the officer corps of the erstwhile British era Indian Army. This one has been written by a Pakistani old-timer..for students of Military History.

Hamid Hussain

East India Company (EIC) army in India consisted of Indian soldiers known as sepoys and British officers. This arrangement continued when the Crown took direct control of Indian affairs in 1858. An intermediate cadre of Indian officers later known as Viceroy’s Commissioned Officers (VCOs) were a link between Indian soldiers and British officers, however even the senior most VCO was subordinate to the junior most British officer. First World War opened the doors for Indians in the officer corps of Indian army. However, only a small number of Indians were commissioned as officers and this trend continued until Second World War when large numbers of Indians were commissioned for an expanded Indian army to fulfill Imperial defence responsibilities all over the globe.

Many thanks. Excellent article.

[Viv S]

It would have been different. Govt would have accepted letter of then MS Gen Nair and rested the matter. Mens Rea

There is no way to prove that.

Govt has , indeed , weak case. That undertaking or whatever it was means zilch. Nobody doubts that Govt has constitutional right to appoint COAS or to remove it after due process. VKS was the seniormost Gen at the time of his selection with two years of service remaining. Hence the political dispensation wanted to look fair in appointing him perhaps remembering VB saga during NDA time. And yes even if VKS wins the case after being admitted into reirement, he would not be appointed or paid but rest assured UPA II would be deeply scarred and may be Babalog would have to take over to restore credibility? He should not leave it to mercy of ostensibly honest politicians , who have been known to lie to Parliament (123 and reply on age issue come to mind) and ask Court to decide.

Well we'll find out in due time whether the courts think the undertaking means zilch or not. Given that the COAS serves at the president's pleasure exercised through the govt., its unlikely to go the general's way. His best bet would be a parliamentary inquiry into the conditions of his retirement - assuming the opposition is interested in the matter.

[Austin]

Army Chief plays down age row

Amid the raging row over his age issue, Army Chief Gen V K Singh today remained non-committal on whether or not he will move court to seek redressal on the matter. "It is a purely personal issue and I desist from making any public comment on the issue," he told reporters when asked if he had kept the option open on approaching court to settle the dispute over his year of birth.

The question was asked in the context of the Defence Ministry rejecting his statutory complaint for not treating May 10, 1951 as his year of birth as against May 10,1950. The Defence Ministry has twice rejected Gen Singh's claim of accepting May 10, 1951 as his date of birth, which would have given him an extension of ten months in office.

Recently, Gen Singh had said the idea of approaching the court on the age issue has not occurred to him. The Army Chief has two sets of date of birth in the records. The records with Adjutant General's branch show it to be May 10, 1951 whereas the Military Secretary's branch records it to be May 10, 1950.

Asked if his differences with the Ministry were over, Gen Singh said, "When there were no differences at any point of time (on the age issue), how can they be now?" He was evasive when asked if the 'chapter' over his age issue was over, saying, "I don't know whether the chapter was open or has been closed. This is a personal issue and I will not comment on it."

When pointed out that he had given interviews recently on his age issue, the Army Chief said, "That was part of army day fixtures. If somebody has breached the trust, you are there to ask... please ask your colleagues why it has appeared and what has appeared, I have got nothing to do with it."

[chaanakya]

Another point to consider is that with Judiciary , he has to start with Armed Forces tribunal or Central Admin Tribunal and then to HC/SC by way of writ appeal/Appeal. SC cAn' be directly approached unless it is by way of Writ Petition under Mandamus or certiorari or quo waranto. Unless SC decides to hold it expeditiously , prior to retirement, extension of serviced would not occur. Going to court would only serve to put egg on the face or those manipulators.

And sure Viv , there is no way to prove or disprove that . Its purely hypothetical and my belief. And we may find out if court finds it zilch provided VKS decides to go to court eventually.

[ASPuar]

He can approach the SC directly, under Art 32. What is the problem with that? Art 14, 15 rights can be invoked. SC has plenary powers to restore the fundamental rights of a citizen. SC can issue a write of mandamus to direct the authorities to correct the dates. A writ of certiorari seems unlikely in such a case. And yes, quo warranto could be invoked to question the authority of MS Branch to make any changes.

CAT has no jurisdiction in Armed Forces matters, only AFT does.

Incidentally, high courts have far more far reaching powers of writ than SC.

@VIVS: The fact that the Chief, like every other government officer, serves at the Presidents pleasure does not mean that he can be dismissed at will, without good and sufficient reason. There is no implied or real threat here. Any action of the government can be challenged in the SC.

[Boreas]

At 60.. it weighs more in a man's mind that how people are going to remember him, then what more he can get out of life.

He possess enough legal proof to prove his stand. However after seeing that, if the PM of the nation is not willing to stand by his army chief, and above that stand by truth, it is stupid to hope that something good will happen out of all this. Last possibility of VKS continuing ended with the no of MMS.

Case or no case, we will have new chief mid-year 2012.

[anjan]

The civilians need to be taught a lesson and this is it.

Exactly what lesson ? All chief from IB ,RAW , CS ,NSA and Defence Chief serves at the pleasure of GOI and not the other way round ...... Constitutionally and Legally Its entirely within Government prerogative to kick out any of the above mentioned person if it wishes to do so and at any time it wants to.

Had this been some IB or RAW chief the Govt would have just told him to go and fly a kite , since the matter involves Defence Chief like it was done during Adm VB and now VKS the GOI is being sensitive and handling it accordingly.

What a load of tosh. People don't get sacked for nothing. They may serve at the pleasure of the President but there are rules governing the removal of Gazetted Officers. These too operate within the laws and are subject to judicial review. And the IAS is not the "go gently into the night" type to accept such stuff lying down. Neither is the IPS for that matter.

[Surya]

Hell just froze over

Moi, ASP and Sanku on the same side

[BijuShet]

I have a few questions for all folks who are debating IA Chiefs DOB issue. Over the past few years there have been many instances where IA felt stepped on by IAS/Babudom (issues like pay, rank etc). This time its over the Chief's age and subsequent retirement date. Now a soldier watching this debate and probably carrying a prior grudge against the machinations of Babudom and Political masters is watching a new drama playing out concerning his Chief. He is probably thinking why does the IA as an institution not step up and fight these injustices.

1) Now if he witnesses his Chief refusing to fight a legitimate fight and give up then why would he feel any compunction to hold his ground for the motherlands security?

2) Are Babus not aware of the harm caused to the rank and file by this kind of political drama?

3) Should the IA chief not fight his case in the courts to show that IA counts for something in India?

[eklavya]

At 60.. it weighs more in a man's mind that how people are going to remember him, then what more he can get out of life.

He possess enough legal proof to prove his stand. However after seeing that, if the PM of the nation is not willing to stand by his army chief, and above that stand by truth, it is stupid to hope that something good will happen out of all this. Last possibility of VKS continuing ended with the no of MMS.

Case or no case, we will have new chief mid-year 2012.

Dr. Manmohan Singh's legacy is also at stake here. Does he want to go down in history as a man who wronged the Indian Army? The government should swallow its misplaced pride and accept the facts. I always hoped and believed that Dr. Singh would put the nations interests first.

[arunsrinivasan]

Not so good news - looks like all the UPA giveaways have started to impact Defence !!

Will China threat last beyond 2 yrs? Finance stalls military expansion

The second phase of the government’s ambitious military expansion plan — worth Rs 65,000 crore — has run into rough weather. The finance ministry has red-flagged the plan with detailed queries and sent it back to the defence ministry with a bizarre question: will the Chinese threat last more than two years?

While responses have been prepared explaining the impossibility of ascribing a time period to the threat or even speculating on what the situation will be two years from now, sources said, the political understanding is that the finance ministry is probably not keen to clear such a high-cost plan this financial year.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had given in-principle clearance last year to a five-year expansion plan, which involves fresh accretion of 89,000 troops with 400 officers — one of India’s biggest one-time military expansion efforts.

The plan includes setting up a new strike corps in Panagarh, West Bengal, along with two more divisions. An independent armoured brigade along with an artillery division will be part of the set-up. These plans were fast tracked after the Army conveyed to the PM that according to available intelligence, China has been rehearsing military action during a limited local offensive.

It was in this context that the proposal for a new mountain strike corps, pending for over a year with the defence ministry, suddenly acquired momentum with the PMO promptly clearing it.

Sources said the finance ministry has also blocked the second stage of expansion of India’s first Navy-only bases, INS Kadamba in Karwar along the Karnataka coast. This Rs 13,000-crore plan involves creating more than a dozen piers and more berths which will host, among other ships, India’s next aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, better known as Admiral Gorshkov, which is now being refurbished in Russia.

[nachiket]

^^Bean counters displaying their short-sightedness again. Nothing new. These inter-departmental differences must be eventually solved during cabinet meetings where the PM has to take a firm stand.

[SSridhar]

Army Chief race turns murky after allegations fly

Senior government sources said they were suddenly faced with allegations, some of them from Members of Parliament and others, and a few of them anonymous, against Lt Gen Bikram Singh. The allegations have not been found to be substantial, but this has not been a deterrent for those behind the chorus of charges. Most of the allegations are old, and that they have now been revived is seen as indicating the motive behind the burst of complaints.

In what may appear to be part of a chain, an MP has also written to the prime minister questioning Lt Gen Bikram Singh's suitability to lead the Army on the ground that his daughter in-law is from Pakistan. The intelligence establishment, approached by the PMO, gave an all-clear to Lt General Bikram Singh but this has not spelt respite for him.

[Aditya_V]

Army Chief race turns murky after allegations fly

Senior government sources said they were suddenly faced with allegations, some of them from Members of Parliament and others, and a few of them anonymous, against Lt Gen Bikram Singh. The allegations have not been found to be substantial, but this has not been a deterrent for those behind the chorus of charges. Most of the allegations are old, and that they have now been revived is seen as indicating the motive behind the burst of complaints.

In what may appear to be part of a chain, an MP has also written to the prime minister questioning Lt Gen Bikram Singh's suitability to lead the Army on the ground that his daughter in-law is from Pakistan. The intelligence establishment, approached by the PMO, gave an all-clear to Lt General Bikram Singh but this has not spelt respite for him.

Lets hope he is not anther Admiral Ramdas.

From the link posted above.

Most serious of the complaints against Lt Gen Bikram Singh is a decade-old, and concerns an encounter in Kashmir on March 1, 2001. Lt Gen Bikram Singh, then a brigadier heading counter-insurgency operations in the area, was injured and a colonel killed. A local NGO 'Youth Empowerment Services of Kashmir' has been petitioning various authorities in Delhi and in Kashmir countering Army's claim that the operation resulted in the killing of a foreign militant named Mateen Chacha.

The group has alleged that the deceased was actually a 70-year-old local named Abdullah Bhat, a resident of Machil, Kupwara, who was shown as a foreign militant. The NGO has not dropped its campaign despite the clean chit to Lt Gen Bikram Singh from the local police.

Which is this NGO, is it connected to Hurrirat, PDP, JNU and other Known Paki representatives in India.

[Austin]

Austin saab thinks that guvernmant is haunted by a simple-man.

Haunted is not the right word , concern may be yes .....you really do not want to be seen as in loggerheads with Defence Chief , Intel Chief , Top Babus etc who works for you.

At the same time Govt has every right to tell them to go if they wish to do so and if they loose confidence in these person who serve them at their pleasure .

Atleast to me VKS hands does not look so clean and Govt should do what it thinks is right without worrying on who keeps the top job or looses it.

[ASPuar]

Asking "Will the China threat last more than two years", finance ministry blocks expansion of military capabilities. Honestly? We're doomed. If idiots like this rule the roost, we are finished. There is no hope left.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... on/898335/