JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

If the US economy wasnt in bad shape they wouldnt have gone for Sequester ....No one wants to cut defence budget in the US MIC unless forced to.
What does this have to do with F-35 procurement? Have the numbers been cut? They have charted out and PAID for aircraft all the way to 2018 contract year (2019 deliveries). Thats 94 aircraft just for 2018 production contract.
The country you have listed are in no better shape but the worst is Japan
All those countries have put cash on the table and placed orders, Thats what counts.
In the end it boils down to its the Economy Stupid and you can easily bet as of today the main question to ask would be which takes first the IOC of JSF or US Economy Collapse
Like I said, when the economy collapses we'll revisit this line of thinking. In the mean time lets hold onto our thoughts :)
Austin
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Austin »

AFAIK no one puts all cash on the table and its paid over period of time.

Yes sure lets wait and see there is no magic bullet here just Stupid Economics :)
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

AFAIK no one puts all cash on the table and its paid over period of time
Well of course, you pay per batch and the cost per batch is staggered. Are you saying that these air forces will back out, pull the cash and go home without fighters?
Austin
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Austin »

^^ Yes what choice will they have if they realise when their economy is down and they have other priority ......barring India , China and at a distant Russia and Brazil the economic down turn consequences will be devastating for US , Europe , Japan ......ofcourse I would be more than happy to be proven wrong becuase it would affect me in some ways too :)
Austin
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Austin »

Coming back to JSF topic a write up by ASPJ

The Comanche and the Albatross - About Our Neck Was Hung
Col Michael W. Pietrucha, USAF

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

From the PAKFA thread
With recent revelation about the F-35 having a lower RCS than the F-22, the difference vis a vis PAK FA would likely be by an order of magnitude.

The F-35 employs an active EW suite as well (with the APG-81 the primary active component). And its got options for disposable EW as well, in the MALD-J.
The Barracuda performance is largely classified. The US has fielded plenty of active EW modules in 4th gen and upgraded 4th gen EW suites (Falcon edge for the latest block F-16's) so to introduce elements within the barracuda is not out of reach. Despite of the secrecy surrounding the system despite of actual Boeing PR effort to attack the F-35's classified capability the biggest red flag that arrises from the fact that the tactics and training element of the F-35 has the 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron in charge of writing Ops level EW capability tactics for the jet. :!:
Much speculation has swirled around the question of the F-35’s electronic warfare and electronic attack capabilities. The Air Force has resolutely refused to discuss any specifics. Yet experts have pointed out that, in its most recent EW/EA roadmap, USAF has failed to mention any plans for a dedicated jamming aircraft. It is a conspicuous omission.

O’Bryan certainly couldn’t go into the subject of the fighter’s EW/EA suite in any detail, or the way it might coordinate with specialized aircraft such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System, RC-135 Rivet Joint, E-8 JSTARS, or EA-18G Growler jammer aircraft.

He did say, however, that F-35 requirements call for it to go into battle with "no support whatever" from these systems.
http://www.airforcemag.com/magazinearch ... ghter.aspx


Some of the most detailed architecture of the EW capability came from Pete Bartos of Northrop grumman (former F-15 and 18 pilot) yet even this keeps things in line with other statements where the Barracuda is just a passing mention and never talked about in detail.

SHAPING THE F-35 COMBAT SYSTEM

Take the AESA radar as an example. We commonly refer to it as an MFA, a multi-function array. It has, of course, many air-to-air modes, and many air-to-ground modes. But it also offers capabilities as a fully capable EW aperture. For EW, I mean electronic protection, electronic attack, and electronic support, the latter of which involves sensing or passive ops.The radar interacts directly with the EW gear, which is imbedded on the F-35’s wing lines and other surfaces. The EW system gives you 360-degree coverage, and covers the radio frequency (RF) spectrum on the battlefield. The F-35 CNI system—communication, navigation and identification—is another flexible, reprogrammable system that further expands 360-degree RF spectrum coverage.

The radar and the EW system are symbiotic and are linked via a high-speed data bus built upon high-speed fiber optical systems. And the systems communicate virtually pulse-to-pulse to assist each other within the RF spectrum. So the radar can draw on advanced jamming resources, and the EW techniques can be channeled through the radar.

The AESA itself has its own attack modes as well and a very sensitive, precise geo-location capability, which can work in conjunction with EW gear. The CNI system is also linked via the high-speed data bus.
Viv S
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:If the US economy wasnt in bad shape they wouldnt have gone for Sequester ....No one wants to cut defence budget in the US MIC unless forced to.
The US economy has recovered far better than Europe from the recession. The Russian economy too is in doldrums having slipped back into a recession this year.
In the end it boils down to its the Economy Stupid and you can easily bet as of today the main question to ask would be which takes first the IOC of JSF or US Economy Collapse.
'Collapse'? I don't think even the most strident of critics predict anything of the like.
Viv S
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:Coming back to JSF topic a write up by ASPJ

The Comanche and the Albatross - About Our Neck Was Hung
Col Michael W. Pietrucha, USAF

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf

Already posted. Reposting response -
Its an interesting article but the article has several mistakes.


1. The F-35's payload is low and range is short - Both are as per the DoD's stated requirements.

2. Costs have doubled since 2001 - Cost in 2001 was $50M or $67 million (2014 dollars). Current cost is pegged at about $75M (2014 dollars) post SDD. 11% rise in flyaway cost.

3. The USAF's SEAD capabilities have dwindled since the F-4G and F-111A retirement - They haven't. Between the B-2, F-22 and F-16CJ they're better.

4. The USAF has given up the EW capability - EW warfare is a critical part of the F-35's mission set. And once integrated with the NGJ it'll carry out escort jamming as well if needed.

5. A decade from now the F-22 will still outnumber all foreign stealth fighters combine - [J-20] + [J-31] + [PAK FA] < 187 unit in 2025? Unlikely.



His recommendations are pretty wonky as well -


1. Upgrade fourth gen fighters with fifth gen tech - The F-35 is a highly unified system not a mere conglomeration of distinct technologies. Iterative upgrades are already ongoing.

2. Restore AF's SEAD fighters - Sending legacy aircraft against new gen SAM systems is a disastrous proposal.

3. Outside of Russia and China no massive IADS threat exists - China and Russia aren't going anywhere.

4. Build new F-16s and F-15Es - Israel, Japan & South Korea all had the option of buying highly upgraded legacy fighters. Russia and China had the option of sticking to the Su-35, J-10 and J-11. All have opted for a fifth gen platform (albeit of varying capabilities).

5. Built a low cost light combat aircraft - The US isn't going to stick around in Afghanistan. Little utility in peacetime. Can be carried out by drones.


The colonel doesn't appear to have analysed the shellacking that the F-22s handed out to legacy platforms in combat exercises. The decisive factor was its VLO characteristics and integrated avionics suite both of which are shared by the F-35.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Manish_Sharma »

brar_w wrote:Italy is going to be assembling its own jets but also those for some other european partners. The suppliers pool for the JSF is large and international and it would quite foolish to break away from that pool given that the vendors have huge volumes to produce and therefore realize massive economies of scale. Northrop grumman for example would have built facilities to produce 3-4K mid sections.
Ah ok so to derive benefits from huge volume, the jsf buyer nation has to purchase from these vendors. Makes sense.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Dhananjay wrote: Ah ok so to derive benefits from huge volume, the jsf buyer nation has to purchase from these vendors. Makes sense.
Well if you can call that a purchase. Each vendor is a part of the pool itself, so its just building the fighter through the consortium. Just like we have parts coming from russia that we put together, the F-35 by its nature assures affordability through economies of scale. So far partners that have demanded FACO facilities have done so with limited production volumes. Lets say a hypothetical air force orders 500, and wants to make major assemblies at home rather then get them from lockheed, Terma, Northrop etc, they can. Only nation I see doing this would be Japan if it increases its defence posture considerably in the coming decades. That is unlikely so italy and japan have done what they could given their economic and aerospace industry condition. Even the basic assembly FACO is a 1 billion dollar investment. Want to make majority parts and that nation would have to inject many times that into their own aerospace industry to give companies the capacity to take over the production.

Another point here worth noting is that the entire production (component production) process is tuned to churn out massive production volumes. The capacity can be scaled up without any new addition up to a rate of 1 aircraft per day. Robotics, industrial level R&D investments in production and check out have been applied. This makes the process extremely efficient for having large factories produce large volumes, but such a process scales down poorly because the initial investment is rather large and unless the volumes are massive its tough to justify the initial investment. Not to say that simpler design and manufacturing processes (much cheaper ) cannot be designed but that involves another flow of investments. Horses for courses.
The Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL, Dayton, OH) has been spearheading an effort to use commercial six-axis robots in the F-35 production process. Northrop Grumman’s Palmdale, CA, plant recently shipped the center fuselage for the first production aircraft.

The company “made significant investments in using robotics to speed the flow of center fuselage assembly,” says Mark Tucker, Northrop Grumman’s vice president of tactical systems and F-35 program manager. “Installation of robotic drilling machines during low-rate initial production is expected to reduce drilling times on key assemblies by up to 70 percent.”

For instance, a recent AFRL initiative called the “guided robots and robotic applications in confined spaces” project used a Series 2000/125L robot from FANUC Robotics America Inc. (Rochester Hills, MI). The robot was equipped with a drilling end-effector from Brown Aerospace Manufacturing Systems Inc. (Kimball, MI) that allowed the compact, right-angle spindle to access 90 percent of locations. A vision guidance system allowed the robot to enter the narrow opening in the F-35’s air-inlet duct.

The composite duct is integrated with the center fuselage by attaching aluminum frames that require hundreds of mechanical fasteners. The assembly process requires the drilling and countersinking of 800 holes per duct. Each air duct is approximately 9 feet long, but only 20 inches in internal diameter. Despite the ergonomically challenging space constraints, the operation was initially done manually. Assemblers would crawl inside the duct and use hand tools.

Because each of the 800 drilling points has a unique safe-radius area, the robot used in the research project used a laser tracking system developed by Variation Reduction Solutions Inc. (VRSI, Plymouth, MI) to help locate the correct position within a very narrow tolerance. A laser inspection system was used to evaluate the quality of each hole.

Northrop Grumman eventually plans to install three robotic cells to drill three different sections of the air-inlet duct, which requires approximately 2,400 holes per set. “By using articulated robots, we’ll go from a 50-hour manual process to a 15-hour automated process,” says Scott Gillette, a manufacturing technology development engineer who’s working on the project. “We’ll also reduce floor space. In addition, there are applications for robotic fastening that we’re looking at.”

The AFRL has just implemented phase one of a new automation initiative called the “affordable accurate robot guidance” project. The purpose of the two-year study is to develop robotic technology that can be applied to aerospace drilling and fastening applications. The prototype cell will be used by F-35 engineers to assemble center fuselages.

The project requires the drilling of approximately 4,000 holes per side through various stack-ups of composite and metal. Hole diameters range from 0.190 to 0.250 inches. “This type of drilling has traditionally been done with large gantry machines, which are not as flexible as robots,” says Don Manfredi, VRSI’s chief operating officer.

“The production systems will each contain up to four robots per cell to accomplish the required drilling,” adds Manfredi. A prototype is expected to be ready by the end of this year, while a production version will debut at Northrop Grumman’s Palmdale plant by late next year.

Many observers believe the F-35 applications will eventually trickle down to the commercial aviation sector and spur widespread use of robots. “Robotic drilling is a growing area that has major benefits for the entire aerospace industry,” Gillette points out.

“We’re using commercially available robots to keep the development costs down,” adds Gillette. “Accuracy and reach envelope are the most important attributes that we typically look for in off-the-shelf articulated robots. We want to work with established suppliers, rather than develop robotic technology for our own needs. We just want to use the technology, not own it.”
http://www.assemblymag.com/articles/863 ... 5-assembly

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Simply put, a production Line design strategy (broader manufacturing strategy) is different for a production process that may scale up from 25 jets per year to 50 compared to a process that is designed around 150-350 jets production per annum. Scale up a 25-50 per year production line to 300 per year without changing the process and it becomes extremely expensive. Similarly scale down a production process from 150-250 per year to 25 a year and you will have a very costly mess. In this way the F-35s production is more similar to a Volkswagon or a Toyota production line than it is to say a F-22 production line. In fact lockheed was FORCED to employ a lot of industry officials from the automotive sector to design the manufacturing process and come up with the assembly strategy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwvZLqtAZWY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qvWkdZ2jso

A dated article from pre-program restructure but it reflects accurately on the design process of the logistical and production line strategy
Lockheed Martin Corp. plans to assemble the stealth plane here on a moving assembly line using digital processes and automation techniques that are new to the defense aerospace sector, says Steve O’Bryan of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 business development team.

Though car manufacturers have built millions of vehicles on automated assembly lines, the concept of moving lines has not been applied to military aircraft since World War II.

Modern warplanes typically have been built in small quantities over the course of many years. The Navy’s F/A-18, which has been in production for more than 20 years, is being built at a rate of 42 aircraft per year. But the F-35 Lightning II is expected to be built at an unprecedented rate — as many as 230 fighters per year.

Lockheed has embraced the moving assembly line concept as the linchpin to produce the next-generation fighter in large enough quantities to satisfy U.S. and international sales.
The U.S. military is buying about 2,500 aircraft. Allied nations are purchasing an additional 500 or so. Lockheed Martin officials are expecting foreign military sales to hike the total number to more than 4,000 Joint Strike Fighters.

“You’re really looking at F-16-like numbers,” says O’Bryan.

Once the line ramps up to full-rate production — possibly as early as 2016 — the company estimates it will assemble about 21 fighters per month, or roughly one aircraft per working day.
The moving assembly line is the only way to reach that rate of production, O’Bryan says. The F-35 measures 51 feet in length. “If the plane doesn’t move 51 feet a day … you’re not going to produce one a day.”


http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... t2282.aspx
member_23694
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by member_23694 »

The problem that I see why Indian forces do not want critical techs from US

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 534198.cms

In terms of the so called ground breaking defence tech on offer include
The US has a number of "ground-breaking" defence technologies, including a helicopter and an unmanned aerial vehicle programme
.......
here's a ground-breaking offer to share in the next generation of the Javelin missile, co-production and co-development
Come one we need some thing more substantial in terms of "ground breaking defence tech " without any fear of arm twisting during critical time.
UK, Australia and other F-35 partners (excluding South Korea and Israel) have the luxury of not being surprised by someone from the neighborhood which unfortunately India does not have. So ideally in such cases one would not like to take chances with F-35 irrespective of all the nice things mentioned about it
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

More on the Electro Optical Targeting System and other components
With ample experience in building some of the world's most advanced targeting systems, scientists and engineers working for Lockheed Martin's Missiles and Fire Control in Orlando, Florida, were in a good position to take targeting capability even further when the requirements for the F-35 were received. The resulting AN/AAQ-40 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) leverages on the experience gained from producing the LANTIRN targeting system ('the genesis of night, precision weapons employment'), the AN/AAQ-33 Sniper advanced targeting pod, and the AN/AAS-42 infrared search and track (IRST) system used on the F-14D Super Tomcat. "The EOTS is the first sensor to combine a targeting FLIR and IRST. Marrying the two capabilities into one sensor was the big technical challenge in developing the system," said Don Bolling, Lockheed Martin's Business Development Manager for EOTS.

Principally viewed as an air-to-ground targeting pod, the EOTS was initially destined for
every third F-35 produced. But the US Navy successfully argued for EOTS to be fitted
to every F-35 built citing the capability as an absolute indispensible part of the sensor
suite used throughout the mission spectrum. The EOTS provides laser designation, laser spot tracker for cooperative engagements, air-to-air and air-to-ground tracking FLIR, digital zoom, wide area IRST and generation of geo-coordinate to support GPS- guided weapons.


Space is limited to such an extent that a standard targeting system with a straight
optical path is physically impossible to house in the space available. The EOTS optical path is therefore folded via mirrors and prisms to refract the light off several different surfaces to direct it on to the focal plane array and fit within the space. "We are effectively bending light at least four times from the point where it enters the window and is finally directed onto the focal plane array or the detector, which was a significant challenge," Don Bolling extolled.

"What makes the F-35 truly magic is that for the first time you have a fused sensor suite. The APG-81 radar is much more accurate in range presentation against an airborne target than an IR system can be, and the EOTS is much more accurate in azimuth down to a single pixel than radar can be. Combine the two capabilities together and you get a much smaller target location uncertainty, which means your weapons effect will be greater and if required your designation accuracy to cue somebody else to that spot will be much tighter. You are able to share the capabilities of each of the sensors and reduce uncertainty," he said.

The EOTS sits behind a faceted window assembly comprising seven sapphire panels. A panel refers to an individual part that fits into a frame and is secured in place to comprise the whole window assembly. Driven by the requirement to comply with the aircraft's radar signature, the EOTS window assembly is the first such design in existence. By comparison, Lockheed Martin's
AAQ-33 Sniper pod has four smaller panels with a much shallower angle of incidence between the sensor and the window. Maintaining the required optical performance and complying with radar signature requirements presented a real challenge
according to Bolling. Internally the EOTS has unique designs for the gimbal and the main entry lens called the A-focal or
azimuth assembly which provides the horizon-to- horizon view. It is positioned right up against the window with about a ¼ inch (6mm) of sway space. This intricate design was driven by the requirement for multiple fields of view with a digital zoom in a low-observable application. A second lens known as the elevation assembly is an innovatively designed mirror that sits opposite
and at a 45˚angle to the main A-focal and rotates to provide vertical coverage. The elevation assembly directs the light into the optical path. At the top of the system is the laser, the same type of laser used in the Sniper ATP but with a different output
path. Just below the laser on top of the gimbal assembly are two circuit boards or electronic control assemblies. One provides control to the power servo and the other is an image processor mechanism. A fibre- optic channel feeds data from the sensor directly to the integrated core processor. The entire EOTS assembly has a composite shroud to provide cover from debris and act as a structural element that assists with stabilising the system. System stabilisation is hugely important for holding a spot on the ground and very steady so a geo coordinate can be derived and fed to a GPS-guided weapon for targeting.
On stealth platforms like the F-35 the aircraft's signature must be carefully managed. With IRST the aircraft has a passive IR sensor that creates no emissions unless the laser is used. If the APG-81 radar detects something out at range, using IRST mode the pilot can feed the data to EOTS and passively track the contact with high fidelity while minimizing transmission of RF energy and the aircraft's signature. The EOTS IRST uses a gimbal, an inertial measuring unit, and a fast steering mirror to provide precise stabilization. Passive in operation, the IRST has a wide area search capability comparable to the APG-81 radar with very high scan and slew rates because of the unique gimbal design. Looking to future capabilities Don Bolling told AIR International: "We are looking at options where we might be able to apply the very fast IRST scan volume across the ground for an IR ground moving target indicator, which has some unique applications for the ISR role."

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AN/ApG-81 Radar

Complex in design, the APG-81 radar has a variety of main components including the T/R modules, the beam steering computer, array driver, power supplies, inertial navigation systems,and an electronic warfare interface eunit. There are about ten assemblies for the antenna and 15 for the receiver-exciter, wideband and narrowband waveform generators.
Built by Northrop Grumman, the RF support electronics comprise a receiver module, an exciter module and power supplies. Each module is shipped to Lockheed Martin’s Fort Worth facility, where it is integrated into the aircraft.
“The front endif the radar comprises what we call the array,which has the T/Rmodules and the radiating element, and is bolted directly to the integrated forebody and positioned up front in the radome,” said Dave Bouchard, Program Director for the APG-81.
The size of the APG-81antenna or array is governed by the internal size of theradome and comprises many of hundreds of T/R modules.
Once installed into the aircraft, in theory, the radar’s front end should not have to be removed or replaced. “The array is designed to last the 30-year life of the platform, with a meantime between critical failure (MTBCF) rate greater than 10,000 hours,” Dave Bouchard asserted.
Items that drive the antenna, such as the power supply, are on the other side of the bulkhead (to the array) and their MTBCF rate is not as high. These components will eventually require maintenance and are easy to access without removing the radome.
Receiver-exciters are usually packed into one box but because of space restriction they are broken into two different boxes located behind the bulkhead and linked to the antenna with a very short cable.

The APG-81 has an electronically steered array controlled by a steering computer with no mechanical motion. Designed as a multi-mode system, the APG-81 has 32 modes of operation which are common to all three F-35 variants; 12 air-to-air, 12 air-to-ground (including two maritime modes ship target track and sea search), four electronic warfare (electronic attack and electronic protection), two navigation, and two weather. Some of the modes are high resolution and are supported by the sophisticated signal processing available.

Although Northrop Grumman would not confirm as such, the APG-81 can operate in LPI (low probability of intercept) and LPD (low probability of detection) modes that are used to minimize the aircraft’s signature to comply with its low observable (LO) requirements. The radar is optimised for agility, very low noise and high efficiency and fully supports the LO nature of the aircraft. Northrop Grumman claims that it is capable of detecting very small targets and tracking at ‘relevant tactical ranges’.
Sensor track information is sent into the aircraft’s integrated core processor (ICP). Tasked by the ICP, the mission system then fuses radar data with that sent from the DAS, EOTS, EW or CNI to provide what Lockheed Martin describes as unparallel situational awareness. Operational flight program (OFP) software for both the APG-81 and DAS reside in the ICP, which allocates processing power to each system. “What really helps is having the ICP provide more memory and throughput that gives the timeline to execute targeting,” said Dave Bouchard adding: “We send our radar and DAS information to the mission system and have an interface control that defines what messages are passed from radar and DAS to the fusion system.”

Another interesting aspect of the APG-81 is the interface with the ASQ-239 electronic warfare (EW) system. On most legacy aircraft the radar and EW are confederated systems that work separately of each other. On the F-35, radar and EW functions work collaboratively, and in some modes they work independently of one another.


Detection and tracking capability are two aspects in which the new APG-81 has set new performance criteria. But how does the system achieve the range accuracy required by the F-35 mission set. Dave Bouchard explained: “Range accuracy is achieved by multiple air-to-air waveforms that drive the dozen air-to-air radar modes. Range measurements are provided to the common filter, which uses algorithms to filter out drift or inaccuracies that arise over time, and thereby maintain track accuracy.”
In terms of type, the APG-81 is a pulse-doppler radar system that runs multiple waveforms for air-to-air and air-to-ground, with what Northrop Grumman calls ‘very robust electronic protection’ (EP), which helps the system to achieve its accuracy requirements. EP is a series of techniques that help prevent the radar from being confused or jammed and ensures that information presented to the fusion system is very accurate.
DAS, CNI, EOTS and the APG-81 radar all provide track information and track updates to the fusion system that in turn controls the portrayal of targets and symbology on the panoramic cockpit display and the HMD (helmet-mounted display).
In terms of ground target identification and coordinate generation, Dave Bouchard claims that the APG-81 outperforms current AESA radars in two ways. By processing synthetic aperture radar (SAR) data with multiple advanced algorithms, the system performs automatic target recognition (ATR) and automatic target cueing (ATC) on the SAR maps. “We can take a very high resolution ground map of a large area and use algorithms that pick out targets of opportunity that the pilot would be interested in,” Bouchard advised.
Many radar systems have SAR capability with a set resolution such as 20ft, 10ft, 5ft (6m, 3m, 1.5m). In comparison the APG-81 has what Northrop Grumman calls ‘Big SAR’, which instantly generates a huge SAR map when commanded. The pilot can zoom in or out on a specific point for a higher fidelity image display without having to generate a new SAR map. The ATR and ATC work simultaneously on the entire area of the ‘Big SAR’ map, and greatly reduce pilot work load during the most demanding phases of air-to- ground operations.

In support of the two-level maintenance system to be set in place for the APG-81, maintainers will use the APG-81’s prognostic health monitoring system to check the status of the radar for flight line maintenance. Faults are presented on a display located inside a bay on the aircraft, indicating which line replaceable component (LRC)to change. This is a straight forward procedure requiring the maintainer to remove a cover, unplug the LRC, unfasten ten screws, remove the old LRC and replace with a new one, run a test and in theory the radar should be serviceable once again.
All other radar maintenance (the second level) will be undertaken either by Northrop Grumman or at the respective depot facility.
The radar’s antenna, housed inside the radome, has a MTBF (mean time between failure) rating of 10,000 hours, though the APG-81 as a system is not rated at that level. DaveBouchard explained:“One of the advantages of the system from
a reliability standpoint is based on the T/R module array that allows graceful degradation, meaning you can afford to lose T/R modules and still maintain the performance.”


The F-35 radar gained a significant amount of radar design heritage from the APG-77 used by the F-22 and the APG-80 AESA system used by the Block 60 F-16, both of which have thousands of hours of field data and robust reliability requirements.
Using field history of the T/R module architecture used on the APG-77 and APG-80, and sophisticated predictive modelling, Northrop Grumman is performing operational and support modelling to help support its performance-based logistics programme.
Because no single APG-81 array has reached the equivalent MTBCF hours yet, modelling of this nature must be performed to mitigate this situation.
Lockheed Martin received the first APG-81 radar units from Northrop Grumman in 2005, the same year that the system flew on Northrop Grumman’s BAC 1-11 test bed aircraft for the first time. In 2009 the radar made its maiden flight fully integrated onboard Lockheed Martin’s
Boeing 737 CATbird, and flew for the first time in an F-35 (F-35B BF-04) in April 2010. Since its first flight on the BAC 1-11, the radar has made 150 flights and accumulated 400 hours as part of a risk reduction effort. “We are flying with the integrated core processor[linked in to the radar]and using PAO cooling [the APG-81 is cooled with Polyalphaolefin or PAO a coolant], to represent an environmental condition that will be encountered in an F-35,”said the Program Director. According to Northrop Grumman, the radar system has demonstrated good stability and performance onboard the BAC 1-11 and also in Lockheed’s integration lab and on the CATbird. “The reliability we have seen in the field to date, even though it’s primarily in the lab and in test jets, supports what our modelling has predicted we will see from F-35,” extolled Dave Bouchard.



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Electronic warfare
A fighter aircraft intended to enable control of both the air and of the electromagnetic spectrum, the F-35 Lightning
II was designed from the outset with its own electronic warfare (EW) system
. With BAE Systems at Nashua, New Hampshire as the team lead, but including the participation of leading EW specialists worldwide, including Northrop Grumman, the F-35’s EW system is part of the basic design, alongside its avionics, communications, navigation and intelligence; and sensor systems.
While all the aircraft types that the F-35 will replace use EW systems, some highly capable against current threats, the F-35’s EW system enables its effective integration with all the other onboard systems. Each of the F-35’s systems is able to inform and operate with components of each other. This F-35 network can also link to larger multi-unit networks, other aircraft or terrestrial platforms via its built-in MADL (Multifunction Airborne Data Link), which allows the EW system to be networked either in attack or defence.
The internally mounted AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda EW system built by BAE Systems completed its flight testing in 2005 and was soon in low-rate initial production, with a unit cost estimated at $1.7 million. Weighing some 200lb (90kg), it was developed from the BAE Systems AN/ALR-94 EW suite fitted to the F-22 Raptor, using emerging technologies to produce greater capabilities with a goal of achieving twice the reliability at a quarter the cost.
The F-35 EW system provides radar warning (enhanced to provide analysis, identification and tracing of emitting
radars) and multispectral countermeasures for self- defence against both radar and infrared guided threats. In addition to these capabilities, it is also capable of electronic surveillance, including geo-location of radars. This allows the F-35 to evade, jam, or attack them, either autonomously or as part of a networked effort. The enhanced capabilities of the ASQ-239 (and integration with the F-35’s other systems) allow it to perform SIGINT (signals intelligence) electronic collection. The aircraft’s stealth capabilities
make it possible for an F-35 to undertake passive detection and SIGINT while operating closer to an emitter with less vulnerability. For the use of active deception jamming, the F-35’s stealth design also allows false target generation and range-gate stealing with less use of power.
The EW system also sends and receives data and status and warning information from other onboard systems through the MADL data link.
The ASQ-239 has ten dedicated apertures, six on the wing leading edge, two on the trailing edge, and two on the horizontal stabilizer trailing edge. The system also has the potential to use the F-35’s other apertures, most notably that associated with its APG-81 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. In addition to functioning with the radar, this array, transmitting only at high-power, could function as a stand-off jammer.
When used in receive only mode, the APG-81 provides enhanced SIGINT capability. The radar could also be used, following future upgrades, as an electronic attack weapon,
burning out emitters with pure power or injecting hostile radars or command and control systems with computer inputs that would provide false targets, misleading information, or shut down an air defence system. Combining these capabilities and data links will give F-35s the potential to do more than defend themselves and jam or attack enemy emitters they locate.
Groups of F-35s could collect SIGINT from multiple directions, and then use the information gathered and analyzed to fire missiles, start jamming, or launch an electronic attack. Data links mean that F-35s can provide this information to other platforms in near real-time and have their actions coordinated ‘off-board’, where there will be more access to fused intelligence, greater situational awareness, and less chance of lethal information overload, than in the cockpit of an F-35.
The 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron part of the 53rd Electronic Warfare Group, formed in 2010 at Eglin AFB, Florida, is tasked with introducing the F-35’s EW capabilities at an operational level. A joint squadron with personnel from all US services, the 513th is co-located with the 33rd Fighter Wing, the F-35 school house for pilot and crew chiefs. Tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs) to be used by the F-35 in electronic combat are being developed by the 513th. The unit will also provide and update the threat libraries and systems programming that will keep the F-35’s systems responsive to changing threats. To do this, the 513th will operate a new $300 million reprogramming laboratory at Eglin, scheduled to open in mid-2011.
EODAS
he sphere provides information on threats and feeds that information to the fusion system, which in turn displays the most relevant information into the HMD. Depending on which direction the pilot is working will dictate what frames or field of view from the sphere the pilotwill be able to see in the HMD.”“While the imagery provided to the pilot in the HMD is
the most tangible thing generated by the DAS and the one that people are most impressed by, in reality, the ability to simultaneously see different targets in all directions, feed information to the fusion system and provide warnings to the pilot, is the key advantage of the system.” he added.


But providing images to the HMD is not the limit of the system’s capability. The DAS also tracks airborne targets it detects surface- and air-launched missiles, while providing passive protection of the aircraft. It performs different functions simultaneously but does not operate in different modes as requested or commanded by the pilot. The six aperture sensors function in the infrared spectrum in all directions, run advanced exploitation algorithms to increase range, reduce false alarms, turn track information into useable data, feed it to the fusion system and add to the air picture displayed for the pilot. Each of the six apertures is interlinked to the ICP, which runs the software algorithms that generate geo-registered threat reports and imagery. These are fed to the fusion computer which outputs data using two channels, one to the HMD and one to the panoramic cockpit display. n the case of the HMD, whatever direction the pilot is looking, he will receive data from the sensor that supports his field of regard. With the panoramic cockpit display, the pilot can chose what he wants presented, which can be a permanent feed from one sensor or whichever sensor can view a given point on the ground, as two examples.

The DAS is designed to detect low intensity threats in a much cluttered background, and has the capability to detect threats such as ballistic missiles. In June 2010, Northrop Grumman collected data from a two-stage Falcon 9 ballistic missile launch from Cape Canaveral in Florida, to determine the applicability ofthesystemtodetect,trackandpotentiallytargetmissilesin the ballistic missile defence role. Northrop Grumman’s BAC 1-11 test bed tracked the multi-stage rocket with the DAS for over 808 miles (1,300km) while airborne over the coast of North Carolina. According to Dave Bouchard, the processing power available enables the DAS to simultaneously track thousands of targets, far more than is possible with any current infrared system.

“DAS is an omni-directional infrared system that can simultaneously detect and track aircraft and missiles in every direction, with no practical limit on the number of targets it can track. DAS truly revolutionizes the way we think about situational awareness,” said the Program Director.


An image of AN/AAQ-37 (EODAS) picking up Ground fire, and automatically geolocating it, feeding targets to the weapon and displaying all relevant information onto the MFD.

Image

http://speedy.sh/bgc5E/F-35LightningII.pdf
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by KrishnaK »

Viv S wrote:
In the end it boils down to its the Economy Stupid and you can easily bet as of today the main question to ask would be which takes first the IOC of JSF or US Economy Collapse.
'Collapse'? I don't think even the most strident of critics predict anything of the like.
US economic collapse is the fondest of hopes of the Phillip/Austin gang :lol:. They'll keep repeating that nonsense ad-nauseam.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by member_26622 »

I think we are missing the point here.

American aircraft manufactures have happily outsourced to Indian conglomerates, I mean Tata's build and ship whole helicopter frames! It's makes full commercial sense to outsource defense manufacturing to India because they cannot send it to China :D

Now about ToT and other crap, We have not made good on hundreds of ToT agreements - imagine importing basic tank shells after signing a full ToT :shock: and Bofors ToT is another joke.

So leave Strategy, ToT and other meddling crap aside. Lockheed will come to India and make F-35 sub assemblies (and more with time) given huge cost differences and potential to sell 1000+ more planes worldwide if they can get costs further down. No one understands this better that US companies. If we force this ToT/Local mnfr., Lockheed will laugh at us for paying them what they would have loved to do anyways.

Sometimes it's better to relax and see the natural fit fall in place, rather than force one in place when it's not needed to begin with.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Austin »

Viv S wrote:The US economy has recovered far better than Europe from the recession. The Russian economy too is in doldrums having slipped back into a recession this year.
Far better as in ? They have added more than 100 % of GDP Public Debt to their Economy which is growing more faster than the economy , The total debt including credit debt and other is 350 % of GDP as of today.

They did not recover they simply delayed the inevitable by printing money and adding debt in bargain , the printing money itself would end this year according to them ,last I saw last quarter US Economy contracted 1 % link
'Collapse'? I don't think even the most strident of critics predict anything of the like.
Collapse as in we will face the same problem as in 2008 because they never fixed the 2008 problem they simply bailed out the banks at the expense of US Public ...which in turn help the top 1 %

The collapse will be in term of USD loosing its reserve currency status once we have a 2008 like scenario sometime this decade , thats an absolute certainty due to multiple reasons and all are Economic one nothing to do with geopolitics.

Either ways I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here because a collapse will affect us all in some ways , Since I stay in India the impact will be less as India would still grow 5-6 %
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

The doom and gloom economic recession theories can be taken to an appropriate thread or we can just wait for the few days, months or years after which this collapse would happen and then we can revisit the discussion vis-a-vis the JSF program.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:Far better as in ? They have added more than 100 % of GDP Public Debt to their Economy which is growing more faster than the economy , The total debt including credit debt and other is 350 % of GDP as of today.
Far better as in faster growth rate, lower unemployment, improved economic activity. Debt as a percentage of the GDP is still below the OECD average.
They did not recover they simply delayed the inevitable by printing money and adding debt in bargain , the printing money itself would end this year according to them ,last I saw last quarter US Economy contracted 1 % link
There nothing is 'inevitable' about it. Japan has had a public debt of over 100% of the GDP for nearly twenty years. It did not collapse.

That's only a quarter contraction (partially due to a severe winter). Growth is pegged at about 4% for the current quarter.
Collapse as in we will face the same problem as in 2008 because they never fixed the 2008 problem they simply bailed out the banks at the expense of US Public ...which in turn help the top 1 %
There is no credit bubble in the US or elsewhere. The banks have been recapitalized. Commodity prices are moderate. Stronger regulatory controls have been imposed on the US financial system (Dodd-Frank Act). The international financial system is better regulated (Basel III accord).
The collapse will be in term of USD loosing its reserve currency status once we have a 2008 like scenario sometime this decade , thats an absolute certainty due to multiple reasons and all are Economic one nothing to do with geopolitics.
USD willl be replaced as reserve currency by what? The future of Euro is in far greater doubt (with the Eurozone's existence itself being questioned). The Yuan plays a minimal role in international trade since its still under formal capital controls. So... YEN? GBP? CHF?

Contrary to public opinion the dollar's position as the global reserve currency has actually strengthened post crisis. That may be good or bad, but its a fact nonetheless.
Either ways I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here because a collapse will affect us all in some ways , Since I stay in India the impact will be less as India would still grow 5-6 %
The US accounts for a quarter of our exports, the largest source of FDI & FII and the second largest source of foreign remittances (after the Middle East). A 'collapse' is most definitely bad news for us. Even if we can sustain a 5-6% rate (may even be slightly lower) that's still an under-performing economy.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Janes is reporting that the B and C fleet of the F-35 has been grounded while investigation is underway of an inflight oil leak in one of the jets (B version most likely). More should be known soon enough. don't think the grounding will be more then a few days as they are fairly quick to get to the bottom of this especially when the jet landed safely (this happened on June 10th).
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

brar_w wrote:Janes is reporting that the B and C fleet of the F-35 has been grounded while investigation is underway of an inflight oil leak in one of the jets (B version most likely). More should be known soon enough. don't think the grounding will be more then a few days as they are fairly quick to get to the bottom of this especially when the jet landed safely (this happened on June 10th).
Update: Incident happened on the 10th, pentagon ordered that all jets be grounded pending inspection on friday. Inspection ordered friday and most of the aircraft in the fleet were cleared to resume flights.
Joe DellaVedova, spokesman for the F-35 program office, said the inspections were ordered late on Friday but that a majority of the 97 F-35s in the fleet - 69 operational jets used for training and 28 test aircraft - had already been inspected and cleared to resume flights on Monday.

He said the inspections, first reported by the Wall Street Journal, were focused on the oil flow management valve fitting on all F135 engines, which are built by Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp. The valve provides oil flow to the engine bearing compartments.

The inspections were ordered after an F-35B model suffered an in-flight emergency on June 10 caused by oil loss in the jet's engine at a Marine Corps base in Yuma, Arizona, where issues have now been found with a total of three valves, DellaVedova said.

He said the pilot returned to base safely and there were no injuries.

No issues have been discovered at the other bases where F-35s are flown in California, Florida, Arizona and Maryland, he said.

Pratt & Whitney spokesman Matthew Bates said the company was working closely with the Pentagon's F-35 program office to determine the cause of the issue. He said it took about 90 minutes to inspect each aircraft, and nearly all planes had been inspected and cleared for further flights.

Bates said the F135 engine had completed nearly 32,000 hours of combined ground and flight testing, with more than 16,000 logged in operational flights. Engine availability had remained steady at or above 98 percent, he said.

Bates also said the engine was designed to survive significant damage from foreign objects as well as oil deprivation, and the control system for the engine included redundant mechanical and electronic parts.

DellaVedova said the source of that F135 engine oil leak appeared to be a supply line to engine bearings and a fitting that separated from the body of the valve in question.

It was not clear if the issue was maintenance-related.
http://news.yahoo.com/u-orders-mandator ... nance.html
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Sid »

Pierre Sprey, co-designer of F-16, talks about F 35.

Its a turkey, he says. :mrgreen: and I cant agree more with him.

[youtube]mxDSiwqM2nw&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Old news, and has been rebutted numerous times all over the internet. He thinks the F-15 is a bad idea as well, most big planes are for him. So the Su-30 would pretty much be crap as far as he is concerned. No one takes him seriously in strategic circles in the US and his ideas find NO support from those that actually have to develop systems to go out and fight (military).

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.in/2013 ... xpert.html
Last edited by brar_w on 19 Jun 2014 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

Pierre Sprey, co-designer of F-16, talks about F 35.
Me too!!!!

Mr. Sprey *also* said that the MiG-21 can take on the F-35.

I guess he never told that to the Russians - they are poring funds into a plane to compete with the F-22, when *they* are the original designers of the MiG-21. :roll:

On top of that the Russians want India to cough up $6 billion in the near future and a total of $30 billion for a (nonexisting) "FGFA". And, India closed her only MiG-21 line?

How silly.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Sid »

brar_w wrote:Old news, and has been rebutted numerous times all over the internet. He thinks the F-15 is a bad idea as well, most big planes are for him. So the Su-30 would pretty much be crap as far as he is concerned. No one takes him seriously in strategic circles in the US.

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.in/2013 ... xpert.html
Nop, he does not says F 15 is a bad idea but an overly complicated jack of all trade fighter (plus its costly).

Even if no one takes him seriously in US, he still was associated with F16 and A-10 design. Both are superb role specific aircrafts and battle proven.

Just because I like Accord does not mean Ferrari is bad. Air force should get what they need, not what they want. Big difference.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

he still was associated with F16 and A-10 design
Please find out if he knows how to code in C++.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

And, if and how well does he know a Mr. Grady Booch.

If in his interviews he does not mention Mr. Booch, then - meh - not genuine.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Nop, he does not says F 15 is a bad idea but an overly complicated jack of all trade fighter (plus its costly).
And how do you design a big fighter with performance and make it small? Why does the USAF even after all this time prefer the F-15 for pure Air to Air missions then? Why does the F-22 replace the F-15 and not a light single engine, non non-sense "cheap" fighter? Capability comes with size and cost. Just look at the F-15 and Flanker families.

The cost argument is also interesting. Perhaps Mr Sprey forgot that the same argument was being made during the early phases of the F-16. The F-16 solution was to quickly ramp up the industrial program and produce the aircraft at huge volumes whereby GD could lower cost. This was at the risk of concurrency, so much so that 1000+ f-16's were produced before Block 30 capability was completed (Back then blocks were just not limited to software).

Now coming to the F-35, costs are just a tad bit over 100 million in current delivery blocks (delivery not order). Thats a cost thats within 20-25% range of current 4.5 gen (western) aircraft, be it the Rafale, Typhoon. The Gripen is one exception but is hardly comparable to the big boys. A projected cost of 75-80 million for the A version with the full sensor suite which is perhaps 3 order blocks (orders not delivery) away looks very promising. More so that the curve for the F-35 cost should overtake that of the Euro fifth generations by 2020-2022 or so owing to the former's massive ramp up and the latter's production slowing to the borderline numbers for an effective economical production (france has already reduced its 5 year buy for example). The F-35 could do what the F-16 concurrency model do, but the concurrency on the F-35 has been far less ambitious so no 1000 F-35's by 2020, but a modest ramp up from 94 Aircraft delivered per year in 2019 to 150 odd in 2020.

Even if no one takes him seriously in US, he still was associated with F16 and A-10 design. Both are superb role specific aircrafts and battle proven
Anyone can say whatever he/she wishes and rest on whatever their past record may have been. Ultimately its up to the tacticians, officers on the ground, war fighters with cold hard experience both at the operational level and through the various resources available (test ranges, DACT, red flags, bi-lateral air meets etc) to come up with a policy on air combat and design equipment for the same. His theories are good only for the internet F-35 bashers. The services, the war planners and air forces around the world do not give a damn.
Just because I like Accord does not mean that Ferrari is bad. Air force should get what they need, not what they want. Big difference.
We are not talking about cars here. Weapon systems are a lot different. Let him preach for a light, cheap no nonsense fighter. No one will be interested except on the internet. He can shout from the top of his voice that stealth is useless. The ops level commander that has to judge it, has multiple ranges to test stealth out. Has had access to them for decades. Has access to considerable resources to test concepts and capabilities out (look at the international aviation thread) and can come to his own conclusion before demanding a capability and judging out the utility of a particular capability.
Last edited by brar_w on 20 Jun 2014 00:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Sid »

NRao wrote:
he still was associated with F16 and A-10 design
Please find out if he knows how to code in C++.
I am not here to save his honor, so you might be right about him.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

Sid wrote: I am not here to save his honor, so you might be right about him.
Understandable. This dud thread has never attracted much research prior to posting anything.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

I had been looking for one of Sprey’s gems when Phillip brought one of his articles up a few weeks ago but wasn’t able to find it. Finally dug it up from a few years ago. You can read what Sprey has to say about the Su-30 MK and judge for yourself how disconnected with reality he is and why no one with any sort of say either at the tactical level or the strategic level takes him seriously.

The Su-30MK is simply another modification of the Su-27, a not-very-high-performing Russian imitation of our F-15 that had its prototype flight in 1977. The new version is significantly heavier and has poorer dogfight acceleration and turn than the original, mainly because of all the weighty and draggy gadgetry (e.g., canards, vectored thrust nozzles) added to allow these spectacular maneuvers.
2. The spectacular maneuvers … are purely and simply airshow tricks, intended to wow the gullible. Not one of these maneuvers has any application to combat, because they can only be performed at speeds well under 150 knots. At that speed in a dogfight against any competent pilot, your life expectancy is measured in seconds.
3. My guess is that there are no more than six pilots in all of Russia that can actually fly these maneuvers — and that they have been in training for years in order to trot out these tricks at international airshows.
4. Executing these wonderful tricks at the Paris airshow with these Olympic-athlete type of pilots, the Russians have crashed two of the Su-30 “Wunderwaffen,” one in 1999 and one in 2006.
5. The Russians have, in fact, palmed off versions of the Wunderwaffen to the Chinese, as well as to the Indians, Malaysians, Algerians, and the dreaded Venezuelans. Despite these triumphs of Russian salesmanship. I’m not losing much sleep over the specter of the awesome Su-30 in the hands of these superb air forces.
5. The more of these turkeys the Russkies sell, the longer the now-ancient F-16 (designed in 1972) will reign supreme as the world’s best fighter. And the less reason we will have to buy F-22s at $355 million each.



Also some neat accounting trick in the end with F-22’s cost since he includes R&D which was pre-Cold war and that would have been divided by 700 fighters instead of the eventual 185 (hence the ballooning of TOTAL per unit cost once R&D is factored in).

http://www.warisboring.com/2009/02/10/r ... -so-scary/
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Sid »

brar_w wrote: And how do you design a big fighter with performance and make it small? Why does the USAF even after all this time prefer the F-15 for pure Air to Air missions then? Why does the F-22 replace the F-15 and not a light single engine, non non-sense "cheap" fighter? Capability comes with size and cost. Just look at the F-15 and Flanker families.
Again no one is saying F-15 is not required. As specialist platform in limited number makes sense. Like B-2. But when you talk revolutionary ideas about replacing low end F-16 with very high end F-35, then it does not make a lot of sense, specially economically.

Look at what happened to UCAV idea. A novel idea of low cost unmanned armed platform which could be mass produced to swarm enemy defense has been replaced with costly, stealthy, unmanned, long range planes. Now attrition of such platforms will also become an issue.
Anyone can say whatever he/she wishes and rest on whatever their past record may have been. Ultimately its up to the tacticians, officers on the ground, war fighters with cold hard experience both at the operational level and through the various resources available (test ranges, DACT, red flags, bi-lateral air meets etc) to come up with a policy on air combat and design equipment for the same. His theories are good only for the internet F-35 bashers. The services, the war planners and air forces around the world do not give a damn.
I totally agree.
We are not talking about cars here. Weapon systems are a lot different. Let him preach for a light, cheap no nonsense fighter. No one will be interested except on the internet. He can shout from the top of his voice that stealth is useless. The ops level commander that has to judge it, has multiple ranges to test stealth out. Has had access to them for decades. Has access to considerable resources to test concepts and capabilities out (look at the international aviation thread) and can come to his own conclusion before demanding a capability and judging out the utility of a particular capability.
We are talking about required capabilities, not cars. Do you need a swiss knife to eat your food or a spoon is enough?

Does air-force need a platform which can do all instead of purpose built platform?
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Sid »

NRao wrote:
Sid wrote: I am not here to save his honor, so you might be right about him.
Understandable. This dud thread has never attracted much research prior to posting anything.
lol, but it does present a good case study on how not to develop "joint fighter" which can do all for everyone.

no one-size-fits-all.
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

But when you talk revolutionary ideas about replacing low end F-16 with very high end F-35, then it does not make a lot of sense, specially economically.
But those low end F-16's are no longer low end. Throughout their life they have had capability stuffed into them (quite literally :) ). The current Block 50/52 and Block 60 F-16's are pretty much as stuffed with avionics, sensors as much bigger aircraft like the Su-35, Rafale or the F-15E. IRST, FLIR, AESA, LDP, CFT', EFT, data links, HMD weapons etc The F-16 in its useful form (the use that its operators would like from it) is no longer a light weight fighter as it was designed in the F-16A form. The JSF program saw that and designed an aircraft around the mission requirements that the Air force is likely to do rather then some requirements of the 70's which are no longer relevant to the time.

The F-35 gets bigger because of the range requirement, internal fuel requirement, stealth and internal bays. The rest of the mission profile is fairly similar to what the block 50/52 F-16's are doing and those are the tasks the F-35 will take over post IOC.
A novel idea of low cost unmanned armed platform which could be mass produced to swarm enemy defense has been replaced with costly, stealthy, unmanned, long range planes. Now attrition of such platforms will also become an issue.
Who says that such a thing is happening? Your swarm UAV's that are cheap are only as capable as your network that you built on them. And adding survivability at the network level means expense. Try sending 50 Cheap reapers over the chinese IAD and they will be jammed out of the air. For those missions you need the RQ-180. Anything less won't come back home.
We are talking about required capabilities, not cars. Do you need a swiss knife to eat your food or a spoon is enough?
Which would be true if the F-16 in its current formed did just one mission which required replacement. It does not. F-16's are doing CAP, are doing SEAD, are doing CAS, are doing air policing and what not. So the F-16 as is operated is a "swiss army knife" of fighters. Then comes the question of changing with the times. Do you keep on producing the same mission sets that are retiring or do you see where technology is going to add missions? The F-35 and F-22 for examples can act as mini SIGNIT and ELINT aircraft. Capability that 4th gen aircraft could not deliver leaving expensive, risky options of sending specialist aircraft into non-permissive environments (Rivet Joint etc).It would be foolish to look at the Fifth gen through the 4th gen scope, it would be akin to looking at the F-16 through the third gen lens (and not adding FBW for example).

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-fifth-genera ... s-machine/
http://www.news.com.au/national/fighter ... 6861468997
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by NRao »

Sid wrote:
NRao wrote: Understandable. This dud thread has never attracted much research prior to posting anything.
lol, but it does present a good case study on how not to develop "joint fighter" which can do all for everyone.

no one-size-fits-all.
Does it?

The ones who claim that are the *only folks* who have *never* designed, forget built, a "5th Gen" plane. : )
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

lol, but it does present a good case study on how not to develop "joint fighter" which can do all for everyone
Care to elaborate on that?
Philip
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

KK,glad to know that I'm a member of the Austin-Philip "Gang"! Far be it from me to want the US economy to "collapse",it would bring about another round of global eco catastrophe,where the greedy US/western bankers will eventually get off ,with bailouts,while the "turd world" will pay for it.

As Prince Hassan of Jordan so eloquently put it just days ago on the BBC,the Mil-Industrial complex in the US and "Big OIl",without fail for the better part of a century,engineer MEastern wars between Arabs,Sunnis,Shias,whatever,to further their interests.As he said,the "elephant in the room (Iraq) is OIL". These wars of devastation keep high the price of oil and find ready markets for US/Western arms manufacturers. The kingdoms and sheikdoms of the oil-producing region are flush with funds to buy a whole galaxy of mil. eqpt. primarily from the West. GW1 saw the sale of Patriots,which performed very poorly,soar.

If the US plows just a small part of its budget into positive areas of its economy,instead of funding outfits like ISIS in Syria,and propping up the Pakis in the sub-continent,it will boost the global economy manifold
.The threat today is two-fold.The Chinese rise to superpower status (one recent estimate holds that the Chinese possess upto 1,800 N-warheads with about 800 ready to use) and the rampant rise of ultra-Islamist entities like ISIS,an even more ghastly and barbaric virus than Al Q,who look like boy scouts by comparison,who have emerged thanks to US indifference to what mischief their Saudi,Qatari and Kuwaiti Sunni bumchums have been upto.Turning the blind eye results in a "blind foreign policy" that is rudely awakened from its indifference only when the sh*t hits the fan,or when the spear enters your nether end! If O'Bumbler is so afeared of conducting air strikes from his carriers in the region,with their hundreds of strike aircraft against the hordes of ISIS,who possess no air capability whatsoever,of what use then are the 5th-gen and 6th-gen fighters going to be? The F-22 has still to make its official debut. It is grunts on the ground who are turning the tide and redrawing the maps of the Middle East/West Asia.Hamas,the Hiz,ISIS and other hordes of jihadis and ungodly species are rewriting history. In Iraq,the US ,weary of a decade+ of war in Araq and Af-Pak,is now looking to its great enemy Iran ,land of the Ayatollahs,who savaged their embassy and ravaged their staff decades ago,to perform a rescue act in Iraq!

However,aircraft like the JSF,F-22,etc. are and will be needed by the US in particular to do battle with the Chinese,if it comes to that.But going by the latest words from the USN's CNO Adm.Greenert,"not to harass the Chinese",or words to that effect,because of the nature of US-Sino trade,it is going to be the deterrent factor of one's combined forces that will deter or encourage any military mischief .With the JSF entering FOC in 2019 for the USN,5 years from now,it is going to be some time yet before the effectiveness of the JSF in a rapidly changing environment will be felt.This is why allies are hedging their bets with reduced orders and retaining a significant capability in upgraded 4-th gen aircraft.Cheaper too.In the Chinese context,if allies threatened by China also employ JSFs,cooperative engagement with US JSFs will be hopefully seamless,helping to offset the numerical inferiority that exists as of now.
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Please keep foreign policy, economic forecasting out of this thread if possible
The F-22 has still to make its official debut.
In a conflict yes. It has flown over hostile airspace and in missions protecting ISR assets snooping on Iran. I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed years down the road that the F-22's had themselves flown ELINT missions over Iran or North Korea. In fact F-22's deployment to within "100 miles of Iran" did kick up a surprise last year. Obviously this one was disclosed, there could be other deployments that aren't.

F-22s Parked Less Than Six-Minute Flight from Iran
Five F-22s have turned up on satellite imagery at Al Dhafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates about 100 miles from Iranian territory. While it’s no secret the US has deployed the radar-evading Raptors to the Al Dhafra, this is the first time they have popped up on publicly available satellite imagery.

The satellite picture was taken about a year ago, however it appears to have been put on Google Earth in recent months.

An Air Forces Central Command spokeswoman based in the Middle East would not say whether the Raptors were still in the region. “We cannot confirm that they’re in the [area of responsibility],” she said.

In January, the Aviationist blog published pictures of six F-22s aerial refueling over Italy. The blog said the jets were flying from UAE back to the United States. It also reported that those F-22s were being replaced by six Raptors from a different wing.
Image



It was not required over Libya as has been explained to you. One deploys the forces which are required for a particular mission success. No need to waste an asset especially one which has had its SLEP plans culled.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013 ... coast.html
brar_w
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

[youtube]KUZ6SMmTKns&list=UUJWcF0ex7_doPdIQGbVpDsQ[/youtube]
Philip
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Philip »

Probably at DG too. However,the US has so many UAVs with endurance far greater than the F-22,more likely to use than the F-22,but in a non-hostile environment with no chance of being shot down whatsoever,who not stretch their wings?
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by brar_w »

Probably at DG too. However,the US has so many UAVs with endurance far greater than the F-22
The UAV's (publicly known ones) most likely do not have the sophisticated SIGNIT and ELINT abilities as the F-22/35 do. The only ISR UAV that has been known to exist and that can penetrate non-permissive environments is the alleged RQ-180. Non stealthy and simple stealthy UAV (RQ170) are probably flying missions over Iran and North Korea, but for snooping in on more protected elements within these nations such as picking up emissions from their radars etc the F-22 with its stealth and EW abilities would be a better option.
Viv S
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Post by Viv S »

Sid wrote:Even if no one takes him seriously in US, he still was associated with F16 and A-10 design.
Pierre Sprey is the chap who was firmly opposed to adding a radar (and MRAAM) on the F-16. Today he's opposing the F-35 as an 'over-complicated' fighter. Clearly, he continues to remain behind-the-curve and stupidly stubbornly so.
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