Indian Roads Thread

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Jul 2012 19:19

Just did a road trip Bangalore to pondicherry and back.

Seemed like we paid endless toll all the way. Almost every 30-40 kms or so.

Is this what development means?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2012 20:09

well you want infra, it has to be paid for. ripoffs do exist like the BMIC which charges high but does not provide a whisper smooth road.

hope you didnt take the krishnagiri-thiruvanmalai-tindivanam route....I read its in very bad shape (untolled though)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jul 2012 21:06

chetak wrote:Is this what development means?

Yes.. and it should feedback into a corruption less system.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Jul 2012 02:01

Dilbu, something tells me this time around you will be proved wrong along with Sachin.

What India lacks are men of steel. In Sreedharan I see someone who is unwilling to accept defeat.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 16 Jul 2012 14:37

Bade wrote:Dilbu, something tells me this time around you will be proved wrong along with Sachin. What India lacks are men of steel. In Sreedharan I see someone who is unwilling to accept defeat.

To be honest. I have immense respect for E.Sreedharan. He has been a "go getter" and have done a marvellous job in his various appointment. But if I am not mistaken in case of DMRC and Konkan Railway, he did have a good political backing and enough support. But in the socialist republic, this backing and support is what I have my doubts on. All said and done I do not want to see E.Sreedharan kind of pushed as the poster boy (with all the politicians hiding behind him ) only to be ditched at the last moment for some political reasons. I do not wish to see E. Sreedharan having a label of "Man who was involved in the *failed* Kochi metro project".

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Jul 2012 19:57

Has anyone done a financial analysis, ridership study for this metro. Sreedharan himself knows that smaller town Metro's are touch and go WRT cost vs benefit. The entire point of building the Jaipur metro was to find out once and for all if small town metro's are viable. Pune was an early candidate but seems to have fallen back. GOI is waiting to see how Jaipur does. Without GOI how is Kochi going to raise the financing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2012 20:44

Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh announced that the ambitious project of monorail system in Guwahati will be implemented in the 12th Five Year Plan.

The monorail project in Guwahati will be implemented under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM). Under the scheme eleven cities of the country will get metro rail and eighteen cities will get monorail.

----
Scomi Engineering Berhad, Malaysia carrying out a survey for Guwahati Monorail
The Sentinel

GMDA working on monorail blueprint

By our Staff Reporter

GUWAHATI, April 16: The Guwahati Metropolitan Development Authority (GMDA) seems rather upbeat about the proposed introduction of the monorail system in Guwahati.

Talking to mediapersons in Guwahati today, GMDA chairman Robin Bordoloi said, “Scomi Engineering Berhad, Malaysia, is carrying out a survey in Guwahati to examine the feasibility of the monorail system. So far the company has said that such a system is feasible in the city. Of course, we are waiting for the company to submit the concept paper and the detailed project report. The GMDA will then submit the same to the State Government.”

Bordoloi further said, “The narrow roads in the city cannot accommodate the increasing number of vehicles. Due to traffic snarls, commuting from one end of the city to the other end has become an ordeal. In such a situation, introduction of the monorail system will do the city a lot of good. Metro rail system is expensive and moreover, you need a lot of space for putting into place such a system. At comparatively lesser cost and in limited space we can set up the monorail system.”

He said that the Scomi Engineering Berhad, Malaysia, had set up a 18-km monorail system in Mumbai. It may be mentioned that some days ago, the Engineering Projects India Limited had made a presentation before Chief Minister Tarun Gogoi on the feasibility of the monorail system in Guwahati. In his recent budget speech, Gogoi had promised to address the issue of providing an efficient public transport system in Guwahati and said that a feasibility study of the same would be taken up in next financial year.

“This high-tech public transport system will ease the traffic woes of the people of Guwahati to a large extent. Many cities of the world have monorail and this system had enhanced the public transport system in those cities,” said the GMDA chairman who added, “The proposed 35-km monorail system will run from Borjhar to Khanapara. Each monorail will have the capacity to carry 1,000 passengers. We are also mulling state-of-the-art infrastructure at the train stations, like constructing shopping malls.”

The proposed project will cost about Rs 245 lakh per km. A private-public partnership (PPP) mode has been proposed for this project.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-def ... z20ndJsaED

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Jul 2012 20:47

In the case of Pune I hear there was a lot of opposition on the ground. I was surprised to read that on SSC, but even Blr metro had stiff land acquisition issues in the beginning.

Isn't it too late to do a ridership study for an approved project ?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Jul 2012 20:54

The urban areas are expanding and so will ridership in the future, and here is a sample for Kochi, since I have been tracking it. There will be a lot of opposition to this, follow the link for details and does not sound like from the usual commie quarters with name like 'Bharateeya' in the banner. Do not know much of this organization.

In a statement issued here on Friday, he said that Chief Minister Oommen Chandy’s assurance that efforts would be strengthened to protect the agricultural land from land mafia could not be accepted as the Chief Minister himself had stated that Kochi Metro City would be set up by attaching the towns of Cherthala, Vaikom, Chalakudy, Kodungalloor and Thodupuzha and gradually it would be extended to Thrissur and Alappuzha districts.

http://newindianexpress.com/cities/thir ... 566739.ece

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Jul 2012 20:58

Sachin wrote: All said and done I do not want to see E.Sreedharan kind of pushed as the poster boy (with all the politicians hiding behind him ) only to be ditched at the last moment for some political reasons. I do not wish to see E. Sreedharan having a label of "Man who was involved in the *failed* Kochi metro project".

Though I respect his achievements a lot, but I fail to see how preserving his legacy and untainted name is more important than having a go at a vexing problem facing all our cities. Even if the project fails, why should it tarnish his name ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jul 2012 21:50

If we are to just take a basic step in roads improvement, all roads in desh must be doubled up., be it nala, gully or super duper highways.

This is a separate need and want that would benefit aam people.

Leaving the interstate type highways alone for now.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Jul 2012 22:15

There is another aam admi issue with respect to roads. Though all would like to have good 2+2 lane roads everywhere, few are willing to pay toll as there are added costs like paying for fuel and vehicle upkeep. So the general sense among aam aadmi is I am already paying a lot, so why more ? The question is not whether it is fair or not even to get quality infra.

OTOH, there would be less opposition to pay up for a public transport system which is of high quality like a metro rail. People will still bicker about the exact price (happens even here in DC) but they see it as a service provided, but not a road which already existed before even if in unusable state.

Even if existing roads are improved upon, I do not see how that alone is going to improve the commute for the common man, with traffic density approaching grid lock at all times. Having a good public transport system in arterial areas will definitely free up the roads for traffic from non-connected areas to the city.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jul 2012 22:33

good points.. I would say, what I am saying is required, but in addition, regulation is required about how many people can stay in a home or how many homes per building, etc.. license raj to an extent - i hope this not lead to another channel for paying it under the table scenario.

expansion or thinking a bit loud, kalam ji ka PURA plan helps. so that the spread and distribution matches with inner expansions.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 17 Jul 2012 02:38

Sachin wrote:
Bade wrote:Dilbu, something tells me this time around you will be proved wrong along with Sachin. What India lacks are men of steel. In Sreedharan I see someone who is unwilling to accept defeat.
To be honest. I have immense respect for E.Sreedharan. He has been a "go getter" and have done a marvellous job in his various appointment. But if I am not mistaken in case of DMRC and Konkan Railway, he did have a good political backing and enough support. But in the socialist republic, this backing and support is what I have my doubts on. All said and done I do not want to see E.Sreedharan kind of pushed as the poster boy (with all the politicians hiding behind him ) only to be ditched at the last moment for some political reasons. I do not wish to see E. Sreedharan having a label of "Man who was involved in the *failed* Kochi metro project".

Sachin-saar, first, I protest the term "socialist republic"

- it is seditious and negates the Indian Republic and should not be used in any public discourse, unless you want to garner attention on some grievance that you feel is not being addressed by Indian Constitution.

But otherwise, I agree to your assessments. Shree Sreedharan is the rail-infra equivalent of Dr MMS. My assessment too is that as long as he has a strong political backing of a secure CM/RailM, he will execute pretty well (despite his rather autocratic engineering choices I mention below

). But currently he is being used to indulge in Shikhandi Warfare by Kerala's political class (and even some babus).

Theo-saar, what financial analysis? Are you indulging in crazy talk? "I have entrusted everything to Lord Sreedharan and he can do no wrong" is what the current CM goes by as a wise policy choice. The lefties can't even open their mouths, as "metro==proletariat rath"

Here, let me stick a bit of news that caught my eye about "intention vs capabilities" part of the story. Article's focus is on Kerala's Electricity Board, but:

Following the retirement of former chairman T M Manoharan, transport department principal secretary Elias George was given additional charge as chairman. Since the official holding the additional charge went to Florida to study the functioning of 'monorail' , the board was unable to hold a full board meeting at the height of the crisis.

That is right, he is furiously studying a few things in Orlando

, the well known center of high-volume mono-rails in the world ;
- monorail
- hydel power using waterslides
- rail based transport in an uneven topology by using roller-coasters

Now even if Sreedharan can deliver (risks: JICA's yet to be denied policy change and DMRC's lack of external oversight in quality control issues as it came out in Dilli's Airport Line), unlike say Smt Dixit's more experienced babudom, this is the sort of iron-frame wallahs that we are dealing with

Trivandrum was treating DMRC with a barge-pole and was in fact making some quiet progress with its monorail plans (lesser required funding than metro + no single-point-of-failure risks) and was based on a combo-funding model out of JNNURM PhaseII (instead of just the usual JICA + state + gap funding by center). But our man was coaxed to go back on his earlier aversion for monorail by current CM and was intruded on to the project. Net result is the original plan for an international tendering for CAPEX/OPEX and engineering-side consultancy was thrown out of the window and DMRC got everything in a platter, with no responsibilities on milestone dates etc. People have protested, but I am pessimistic with the current govt.

I have grave doubts on where it is going to end up in.

Theo-saar, especially for you : advocating panda-like pie-in-the-sky stuff

I heard he has been pushing quite a bit on that maglev tech

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Jul 2012 03:06

Theo-saar, what financial analysis? Are you indulging in crazy talk? "I have entrusted everything to Lord Sreedharan and he can do no wrong" is what the current CM goes by as a wise policy choice. The lefties can't even open their mouths, as "metro==proletariat rath"

That is how the game should be played to corner the Left loonies. When they mooted the idea of the Kerala Expressway, the big mistake was to not say, we will provide toll-free single lane traffic in each direction for all autos, cycles and working class boozers for their evening time roadside walks, as well as a kutcha road for dharnas and picketing too.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jul 2012 05:49

actually that is a model for all super highways and is required... specialized sideways going either directions, with under or over bridge connectivity every mile. these side roads will bring jay walkers, boozers, bulls and cows, dogs and cats, donkeys to enjoy. while we preserve our flora and fauna [road side pishaps and sharabs], they get a glimpse in the center of the road super highways, and look towards using it in the distant future, while their economies improve by entry and exit toll ramps.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Jul 2012 10:18

I have often commented negatively upon the indefinitely "hanging out" crowds seen in Indian cities and towns by the road side. In light of the new information on how we SDREs need Vitamin D for our well being, maybe this is just our evolutionary response, to be out in the open soaking in all the sun we can. Hence providing for such gathering places along even highways in densely populated areas may be a holistic design requirement, just that they need to be safely separated from the fast moving traffic lanes. Currently, that is not the case all over, leading to more hit and run type accidents.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jul 2012 23:05

actually, hidden behind your thought lies greatest truth of our dynamic roads.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Jul 2012 02:34

Life in the fast lane: 165km in just 2 hours
Avijit Ghosh & Prabhakar Sinha, TNN | Jul 17, 2012, 03.01AM IST

First announced in 2001, the expressway reactivated by the Mayawati government in 2007. The project was tough task considering the engineers and the labourers weren't just constructing a six-lane expressway, with another two emergency lanes on the side. There are also six interchanges, 70 vehicular underpasses, 41 minor bridges, 76 cart track underpasses and 183 culverts. In case of a breakdown, there are orange SOS booths all along. And a toll free helpline. Rest rooms are located after every toll plaza but there are no petrol pumps.

The high-speed motorway knifes through five districts --Gautam Budh Nagar, Aligarh, Mayamaya Nagar (erstwhile Hathras), Mathura and Agra. Driving through is looking at a picture postcard of hinterland north India or taking a lightning tour of Uttar Pradesh countryside. Once you are past the Gautam Buddha University with its stupa-like domes on the left, and the red NIIT building and the few other buildings on the right side if you are venturing towards Agra, you drive through wide open space. Barring the odd hamlet and a few scattered houses, much of the adjoining area is sparsely populated. The land is a pleasing green with grazing pastures, paddy fields, mango and neem trees.

But there's a flip side to the tranquility. In a couple of places, drivers are warned about itinerant nilgais. Besides, those living in the vicinity seem to be using the expressway as an all-purpose, open-air recreation centre. Men and women can be seen squatting on the edge of the roads. Cyclists stroll. Some young men can even be seen doing sit ups on the smooth flat surface. Hopefully, such sights won't exist once the speedway opens.

The top layer of the road is quality concrete though one also sees tar in very small patches. What lies beneath the concrete is equally interesting. The lowest layer is earthwork, followed by 50 cms of sub-grade or good soil, then you have a 15 cm thick layer of chips and another 15 cms of drainage layer. On top of it, you have dlc or dry clean concrete 20 cms deep and pqc or pavement quality concrete 32 cms thick. The wheels glide over the concrete as smooth as the proverbial Hema Malini's cheeks. And who doesn't like Hema Malini's cheeks?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 00:17

For land scarce regions like KL, has anyone explored the possibility of leasing small parcels to build supporting pillars on ? This will work in case of fully elevated expressways going through agricultural lands without outright acquisition of a full 100m wide stretch along the expressway. Reduced costs due to smaller land acquisition might even compensate for the extra in terms of building costs. If the land owner is leasing it and gains some rent from it, then it can have local support too perhaps.

It will not work for residential areas, but can still save precious farmlands. In high rainfall areas one can even do rain water harvesting from these sky top expressways.

Interesting old link added.
http://www.urbanphoto.net/blog/2006/10/ ... xpressway/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 00:58

^well which is cheaper - asking people to give up some land or doing elevated highways?

now there may be places that might require such elevated highways due to terrain issues. But, that should be driven out of natural designs.

I am surprised KL has lands.. and especially after EMS rule, where he had the guts to throw away all landlords having massive acres of land to succumb to gov of KL rules, what makes the same land not ensure some extra piece of land on roadsides.

kick out all those shopkeepers,and push them into dedicated buildings every mile., and clear them.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 01:07

Another way is to push them below the above grade on pillars expressway and get more width than is currently possible for the NH47 and NH17 alignment. These being existing alignments has commercial activity along the corridor.

For total greenfield expressway a different approach can be used, a lease with rental income options for landowners. It is likely that well into the future, these areas will also become commercial corridors below them if the need arises. For now keep the option for having open grade level access to people living there. Less opposition to road building and no need for providing freeway crossings at every 500m or so that might be needed for a grade level expressway. There are advantages to this. The local land lords below will also not oppose the high toll either

as it is a revenue stream for them.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 02:22

There are two other issues:

1. Safety - what happens if earth quake happens? [for quake prone zones]
2. Cost - perhaps gelf tax can bring this, or ask the landlords to pay their portion of the section, by way of infra tax.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jul 2012 02:55

btw, Tumkur elevated expressway cost Rs80 crore per km, total ~ Rs 780 crore for 10 km. It was 15 m wide so would have needed 3 acres per km. Total area for 10 km is 30 acres. Per NHAI standards similar road on grade would have cost about Rs 200 crore to Rs 300 crore. So about Rs15 crore per acre. Just saying....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 02:58

The safety aspect is same with any structure in use. Even public bridges have the same issue. If one goes total TFTA, then one can some sort of warning triggers for vehicles to slow down at least, if structural collapse cannot be prevented for a 9.0 one. But the region has seen not more than a 6.0 or so.

Cost has to be recovered via toll onlee and landlords below collect rent too from toll money collected, like royalty. If toll money includes land price in outright Land Acquisition, the subsidy here is compensation via rent for land access by the expressway piers. Other commercial activity can go on at grade below with class-3 1+1 lane roads that local people access for free.

Gelf money via bonds (?) or as shares in initial investment, much like CIAL (kochi airport) model.

Guvermand does not have to shell out outrageous land prices for 100meters x 500km for the entire expressway length, ie. 50 X 10^6 sq meters or 538 x 10^6 sqft or 12,349 acres of land that it has to acquire at market value.

Land cost is KL is roughly, 1-3 lakhs per cent or 1-3 crores per acre even in the country side. Land alone will cost anywhere between, at lowest end Rs12,000 to Rs36,000 crores at the high end. The average would be a good ball park figure at Rs25,000 crores.

the NH-7 elevated one costs ~ Rs600 crore for a 20-30 km stretch of six lanes. I dont think LA costs are in there, since it is being built in the median of the NH-7. So scale it up by a factor of 20 and you get Rs12,000 crores or so.

So LA costs are comparable to build up costs, or even more perhaps for outright buying. Better avoid that by a long term lease like some 100+ years.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 03:06

If Theo's number is the more current one at Rs 80 crore per km, the built-up costs for structure alone will be Rs 40,000 crores for a 500km elevated expressway.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 03:42

why there is no regulation on land value rise? for socialistic gov setup, it is mandatory, we regulate land and property price... this is the only way to advance.. now after we have done all the infrastructure near 99%, and not any more possible, we could throw open to market dynamics.

people are greedy, so, they get stuck on poor infra.. they better shell out or let their land values lowered. one can't both sleep with ghq, while having a life with shq.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 04:14

If land value goes down drastically by SaiK diktat, then someone from Blr will lap it all up. It still costs much less than Blr for sure.

But my 100m width right of way was overkill perhaps, unless one plans also a double track HSR along the same alignment with an at grade expressway.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jul 2012 05:00

Bade saar,

Good you are getting a handle on the scale of the problem. You see why HSR is such a head scratcher.

Let me point out one more thing. As an advanced state with a per capita of $30,000 Kerala would have a SDP of $1.5 Trillion!! At that point HSR maybe feasible. Right now SDP is $40 Billion.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 05:16

I am not sure anyone is getting a handle on anything. Forget Kerala, when will TN,GJ or any other advancing state going to get to $30,000 per capita in the next 100 years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 06:18

I am onlee trying to throw some weight on reducing the greed factor that overwhelms capitalism, which we have only partly subscribed to. OTOH, the landowners and their chela borkers have unequivocally gone had capitalizing every penny possible via greed show.

Even the property values are down played for paying tax, while increasing the black market.. and just asking for a different mindset is like as if christ has to born again for taking all these new sins.

alright, let us get back to roads!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 06:58

The average per capita as a metric to decide affordability may not work at all as it is a mean measure, ie. net SDP divided by the population. A more appropriate measure would be the median value of the distribution, which would tell a lot about whether a particular service at a price point is affordable for a significant majority, as half the population would be earning above the median value.

A state having reached a trillion dollar economy, can still be left with only a few able to afford premium services.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jul 2012 07:51

The thing that will control property values is to inflict a realistic annual cost for owning property. Something like a 2% property tax will deflate these Rs 2 Crore, 1,200 sqft apartment speculation. It is what ended the bubble in the USA. Right now people can park Crore in property and pay almost nothing in tax.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Jul 2012 08:40

But the sales tax is rather high at acquisition time of any property in India compared to the US, isn't it ? Still what does one get for that in public services.

But if done correctly at 1-2 % annual rate, then it could pay for some of the local infrastructure improvements, including roads.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 23:44

That is where corruption happens too..The system has no checks and balance to find the actual sale value, but reduce the value for reducing tax. The person who does this, also in the net for receiving his cut... net, Gov ticky is goner. The seller is at high end here, and makes merry.. and the broker too.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Jul 2012 01:43

SaiK, it is only land which is registered at values lower than what has changed hands. From my experience, flats are fully declared property at least those for middle class pockets. Maybe the Mumbai multi-crore ones and Mallya's batman cave in the Blr CBD area have their own bank vaults and rules.

saip · Post by **saip** » 25 Jul 2012 01:54

Even flats are not declared at full value. Recently a friend sold a flat and got something like 30% in black. This is how it was explained. The IT dept fixes the likely market value (which itself is less than the true market value). Then you are allowed to sell it for not less than something like 70% of that IT price and most people do put that value as sale value and that will save a lot of money towards stamp duty, regn fee and the bribe (which is equal to Registration fee).

saip · Post by **saip** » 25 Jul 2012 02:01

Isnt there a law which says the Government has the right to purchase any property that is being registered by paying 10% more than what is stated in the sale deed? I vaguely remember that.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Jul 2012 02:45

I guess resale has this issue at least for flats. When you buy directly from the developer at least from what I know and have heard of in Kerala and Bangalore from friends, the black amount is 0%. Full value is declared.

I guess it is the high registration taxes which is spooking people and creating an incentive for under declaring the property value, not to mention the taxes on the profit made by the seller to the Govermand.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jul 2012 02:47

Again this is off-topic but my argument is house tax is not being charged on the basis of value. For instance a house plot in Annanagar Chennai of 2 grounds is worth an ungodly sum, yet my dad pays Rs7,000 in house tax. A 1,400 sqft apartment in Anna-nagar west is worth over Rs1 Crore but the house tax on it is only Rs 2,200 per year. This is what allows folks to park their cash in such speculative activity. Preexiting folks can be grand fathered in with an annual escalator.

If you buy an apartment for 80 lakhs you should pay at least Rs80,000 in house tax annually.