Bharat Rakshak

Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?

Katare wrote:I think the general trend is for power contracts to go towards fuel neutral bidding, whoever can produce at the cheapest rate for the specific need at the specific place would get the contract.

There is another factor that works in favor of solar which is causing the utility companies, at least in ECDP countries, to diversify their portfolio with renewable energy. The cost of fuel is fixed, it's availability per year is fixed and capital cost is fixed too. This offers kind of certainty that is not available with the conventional fuels. This predictability is a big factor in decisions of some of the utilities, which are as conservative as it gets, to have a look at the solar option.

Katare wrote:As for as subsidies are concerned, they'll get phased out as economy of scale is achieved and global supply chain is developed. Cost of solar cell have dropped 75% in last 7 years and projected to fall another 50-70%. This will allow the solar industry to stand on their own feet in next few years. Future Tesla car buyers would be loosing subsidies this year or next, as soon as company passes milestone of fixed number of cars sold. I don't think people who are buying a $50K- $150K car are going to walkaway for $5K of govt subsidies, at least the stock market doesn't think so.

Katare wrote:Watt or Mega Watt is the unit of power, which is used to denote the size of the generation equipment not energy. So 156 GW produced is incorrect, throughput of energy is given in the plant load factors, which depends on the electricity demand, cost of generation and capacity.

You don't need to convert energy units to Joules and than divide that by time, you can simply divide the units produced by the time (in hours) and get your answer.

Energy = Power*Time

115,961 MU/31*24 = 155.8 GW (if we run at 100% plant load factor this is what we would need).

So more than half the installed capacity is unutilized because there is no demand in the night, off season months, plants need maintenance, transmission system breaks down, can't sell because cost is too high, fuel not available (gas fired plants) or customer can not use it.

Not sure what is the point of it, though?

If I get my electricity at affordable rates what do I care if solar plant is running at 15% and Coal is running at 60%. To maintain grid integrity, base loads would need Thermal/nuclear plants while renewable would provide rest of the demand. Not sure why do you keep repeating same thing again and again?

Rishirishi wrote: My calculation has already taken into account panel efficiency. Maths is simple. A unit of energy costs Rs2,5 this is a FACT. Unfourtunately solar power is only available during daytime. Hence you have to add the storage cost, for any power consumed after dawn.

Now the cost of storing the power and using it later is 200 dollars per Mwh. This gives a price of Rs 12,8 per unit. Fortunatly battery costs are falling very fast. Some predict the power storage cost to drop down to Rs 2-3 per unit.

The interesting part is that Hydro power can be used when solar is not available. This is of course in addition to the wind power. Both Wind and Solar are cheaper then coal.

guru.shetty wrote:
This was California's yesterday's supply. The green patch is renewables - mainly solar. And you can see how during the day, Solar pretty much meets half demand. Since the forecast happens an hour ahead, it gives enough time to ramp up natural gas power stations.

Mort Walker wrote:

Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?

This is precisely what some posters are saying along with the solar-jihadis world wide.

Mort Walker wrote:

Katare wrote:No one's saying that Solar would be used for the base load. Why make it a straw man and argue against it?

This is precisely what some posters are saying along with the solar-jihadis world wide.

guru.shetty wrote:This was California's yesterday's demand. The green line indicated actual demand and blue dotted line indicates the forecast done for the demand an hour before the actual event. As you can see, the forecast is very accurate. You can see this for almost every day, and the result is always that the forecast matches the demand very closely.




This was California's yesterday's supply. The green patch is renewables - mainly solar. And you can see how during the day, Solar pretty much meets half demand. Since the forecast happens an hour ahead, it gives enough time to ramp up natural gas power stations.

Katare wrote: Also note that PV cell efficiency is limited by hard stop of technology. Unless someone comes up with better material, there are no incremental gains in efficiency of cells/unit radiation. Any gain that comes would come from better panel design, concentration, cooling, cleaning and distributions.

JTull wrote:60% Capacity Factor wind turbine

Lots of interesting info on future very large turbines.

1. A very advanced electric grid is a Smart Grid.

2. A smart Grid is an efficient battery.

3. A smart Grid is an efficient power source.

Thus, A smart grid is both a battery and a power source.

4. Smart Grid is pervasive and hence Smart grid is ubiquitous.

5. Smart Grid is invisible.

Smart meters to rationalise electricity consumption in India
By Malini Goyal, ET Bureau|Updated: Mar 18, 2018, 03.32 PM IST

Come May, you can get smarter. You can operate your home appliances remotely by just installing a smart electricity meter. Soon, you would also be able to check which appliance is consuming more electricity and synchronise usage of power-hungry equipment, such as geysers, with off-peak hours, when pricing would be lower.

The Internet of Things (IoT) solution would be made possible for the first time in India by Tata Power Delhi Distribution Ltd (TPDDL), a joint venture of the Delhi goveernment and Tata Power, which is set to install smart meters and also launch a mobile app for Android (to start with). In the first phase, 2.5 lakh smart meters would be installed in north and north-west Delhi. By 2025,16 lakh smart meters would be operational.

Smart Discom

Consumers need not buy a smart appliance but can use their existing appliances and still automate their homes. With smart meters and the back-end infrastructure of a smart-grid network, even the distribution company would start behaving smartly.

In future, during peak-demand hours, consumers would get a message on their mobile phones offering them incentives to lower unit consumption. During off-peak hours, consumers would get a message incentivising consumption — helping in optimum usage of power-hungry appliances such as geysers or batteries of electric vehicles. The smart model, which could be tied to a dynamic tariff, would help domestic and institutional consumers.

Domestic consumers, as of now, mostly get a flat tariff throughout the day, with no distinction between peak and off-peak prices.

“Right now, there is one-way traffic between us and the consumers. With a smart grid and smart meters, it will be two-way communications, ” says Praveer Sinha, managing director of TPDDL, which services 7 million people in Delhi.

As part of the modernisation, linemen would also get a makeover. The days, sometime nights, of linemen arriving on bicycles to figure out why your house is in the dark is already a thing of the past.

TPDDL’s field force automation programme would help the lineman track consumer complaints, do remote diagnosis and find the best solution — all the while keeping the customer constantly updated by an SMS or via the app.

The lineman would also be equipped with a tablet, a global positioning system for better tracking, route optimisation for shorter commute and augmented reality systems for faster identification of the problem. An auto-dispatching system would ensure that the closest lineman is given the job. And he might just pull up in an electric vehicle.

Power theft is a huge challenge in a country like India, where the aggregate technical and commercial losses are over 20%. Pilferage by tampering with meters and distribution lines has been plaguing the sector. But the smart grid would help tackle this. TPDDL, with Omron, has developed a tamper-proof sensor that can withstand high temperature and is water- and fire-proof.

The sensor detects tampering, stores the information on the meter and communicates it to a central server. It also enables the discom to disconnect power supply remotely. Wireless power sensors detect hooking and other such tampering of distribution lines.

This move would set the stage for Delhi to move towards the Smart City mission, a project the government has been pushing hard. For this, TPDDL is collaborating with 30 entities, including GE, IBM, Raychem, 3M, EDF, GIZ, USAID and USTDA. It is also working with the Indian Institute of Technology-Bombay, Stanford University, University of Canada, University of California and the University of Finland, to research, pilot and introduce energy efficiency and home automation technologies.

For example, USTDA has given a grant to explore and develop opportunities in the areas of rooftop solar energy, energy storage systems and electric vehicles. Apart from aligning with the Smart City mission, TPDDL’s roll-out of smart meters and a smart-grid backbone would help in managing demand and growth in consumption.

Today, residential consumption accounts for 24% of electricity produced in India, of which 75% is used for lighting and cooling. By 2021, according to the World Bank, residential consumption would surge 260%.

Thrust on efficient appliances, use of solar energy and demand management are some of the ways to deal with consumption growth in a sustainable manner. The World Bank has estimated India’s energy efficiency market at Rs 1.6 lakh crore. For example, 280 million LED bulbs sold under the UJALA scheme have resulted in a saving of Rs 14,618 crore.

Another important aspect in managing consumption is renewable energy. For example, solar is 1% of TPDDL’s grid supply today; the discom wants it to be 10% in five years. The rise of rooftop solar power systems is a critical component of this strategy. With the help of USTDA and others, efforts are on to explore technologies to integrate distributed energy resources (rooftop solar power) with the grid, while maintaining grid efficiency and stability.

“All this will empower consumers and discoms like us to optimally and efficiently use and supply electricity,” says Sinha.

Home Automation
Smart meters can integrate home appliances and even, say, the window curtains for remote operation via a smart phone or tablet PC. The system entails installing modular intelligent switches with radio frequency communication technology integrated with smart sensors to control appliances.

The home automation market in India is estimated to touch Rs 30,000 crore by 2022, with the residential segment accounting for 60% of the industry.

1. A very advanced electric grid is a Smart Grid.

2. A smart Grid is an efficient battery.

3. A smart Grid is an efficient power source.

Thus, A smart grid is both a power store and a power source.

4. Smart Grid is pervasive and hence Smart grid is ubiquitous.

5. Smart Grid is invisible.

An integrated electric Grid that incorporates information and communications technology into every aspect of electricity generation, delivery and consumption from source to destination in order to minimize environmental impact, enhance markets, improve reliability and service, and reduce costs and improve efficiency

Energy Efficiency Services Ltd (EESL) has floated its second tender for procuring five million smart meters to be installed on a pan-India basis.

A JV of PSUs under the power ministry, EESL had last year invited bids for five million smart meters to be deployed across UP and Haryana.

India now generates around 1,160.1 billion units of electricity in financial year 2017, up 4.72% from the previous year. The country is behind only China which produced 6,015 terrawatt hours (TWh. 1 TW = 1,000,000 megawatts) and the US (4,327 TWh), and is ahead of Russia, Japan, Germany, and Canada. …………….

Millions of Indians are expected to cross that threshold in the next 10-15 years, so analysts expect demand for room air-conditioner demand akin to the surge in China around the turn of the millennium. Urban Chinese purchased 200 million room air conditioners in 15 years, creating—with just one appliance—300 GW of electric demand, the equivalent of six Californias.

In India, air conditioning is expected to double the country's electricity demand in 15 years, requiring 200-300 new electric plants for that one appliance. Air conditioning is part of the reason India is expected to be the world's largest contributor to new electricity demand between now and 2040.

"India would be the largest contributor to the additional demand that may come in that timeframe," Abhyankar said. "Most of China’s energy sector has grown already, China is kind of reaching a plateau, and India is where China was about 10 to 15 years ago. That’s why these next two decades are important for India."

arun wrote:

India now generates around 1,160.1 billion units of electricity in financial year 2017, up 4.72% from the previous year. The country is behind only China which produced 6,015 terrawatt hours (TWh. 1 TW = 1,000,000 megawatts) and the US (4,327 TWh), and is ahead of Russia, Japan, Germany, and Canada. …………….

Little factoid, only 5 countries in the world produce more than a Terrawatt of Electricity.

From here:

RACING AHEAD : India is now the world’s third-largest electricity producer

“The heavy engineering arm of Larsen & Toubro has received orders worth Rs 747 crore from NPCIL to supply steam generators and end shields for its indigenously designed 700 MWe Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWR) to be set up at the Gorakhpur Haryana Anu Vidyut Pariyojana (GHAVP) in Fatehabad district of Haryana,” L&T said in a statement.

Supratik wrote:That electricity ratio is better than GDP ratio between India and China.

Katare wrote:$200 Billion Solar Power deal Signed by Saudi Arabia

The Indian Solar Manufacturers Association has made a request to terminate the present investigation, it added.

The domestic industry has cited certain reasons for its request to terminate the probe. They have stated that post-initiation, the injury being suffered by the domestic producers on account of dumping has aggravated sharply.

Katare wrote: What is the point of your post? If you can’t see the connection between recent conversation on the thread and the posted news, I am not sure if I can help you much.

Anyhow, solar shift is real and Indian investment in it are not unique, it appears to be a worldwide phenomenon which would lift all the boats by creating economy of scale. Even Saud’s realize that the oil is not going to last long and they need to move towards the fuel that would last forever. Sunlight and wind is the way to go.

Building 200 thermal power plant would require building thousands of KM of railways, 10’s of thousands km or roads, diverting millions of acres of land to exploitative mining and infra development, dozens of ports, ships and storage dumps besides 100s of thousands trucks, train sets, heavy machinery and billions of gallons of water/day capacity.


Now this could be good or bad depending on you look at it but the massive amount of work required usually means lead times are long and delays and coordinations are poor.

I must add the statutory disclosure to avoid the same anti jihad lecture process to start again-

With all that said, there are significant hurdles and limitations that would need to be overcome to achive true potential of solar energy and it would not replace conventional fuels but only complement them in future.

Theo_Fidel wrote:Katare Saar, well said....

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Commerce Ministry ends anti-dumping probe into solar cells import on industry's request

https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/en ... 73296.html

The Indian Solar Manufacturers Association has made a request to terminate the present investigation, it added.

The domestic industry has cited certain reasons for its request to terminate the probe. They have stated that post-initiation, the injury being suffered by the domestic producers on account of dumping has aggravated sharply.

SBajwa wrote:Question for the power gurus

which is better 120v or 220v electricity?

I have seen that the 120V here in USA the appliances never break while in India they go bad after few years.

Vasu wrote:This is the big reason why per unit rates of solar are falling in India, and elsewhere across the world. I understand the economies of scale are being met, but like much else, China has cornered most of the manufacturing and dumps it across the world.

Infrastructure major Larsen and Toubro (L&T), Genus Power and Allied Engineering have bagged a contract to supply 10 million pre-paid meters to Uttar Pradesh under the Saubhagya scheme, which aims to add more than 40 million households to the power grid by December this year.